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Cannons and Overcapping
jinno1993
Member Posts: 101 Arc User
in The Academy
Hi guys, I'm confused about a thing:
I'm an old school player (which means "I fly escort, I run cannons"), but the more I play, the more it looks like cryptic is making its best to f*ck these weapons.
Recently I read on reddit that cannons are not affected by overcapping because of their fast firing cycle.
Do this means that is pointless for me to run EPS Flow Regulators and EPtW ?
What should I do to really boost my weapons ?
I run a full cannon Fleet Ar'Kif Warbird with 5 Mk XIV Vulnerability Locators and Mk XIV ultra rare crtdx4 DHCs and still I can't kill a single, fu**ed tholian in Crystalline Catastrophe Advanced ...
Men, its frustrating ... I don't really know what to do ... It looks like I'm firing blank !
Help me please !
I'm an old school player (which means "I fly escort, I run cannons"), but the more I play, the more it looks like cryptic is making its best to f*ck these weapons.
Recently I read on reddit that cannons are not affected by overcapping because of their fast firing cycle.
Do this means that is pointless for me to run EPS Flow Regulators and EPtW ?
What should I do to really boost my weapons ?
I run a full cannon Fleet Ar'Kif Warbird with 5 Mk XIV Vulnerability Locators and Mk XIV ultra rare crtdx4 DHCs and still I can't kill a single, fu**ed tholian in Crystalline Catastrophe Advanced ...
Men, its frustrating ... I don't really know what to do ... It looks like I'm firing blank !
Help me please !
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Comments
Many people make this mistake thinking that beams need say 160 power to stay at max damage but cannons only 135 so beams do more (numbers used for example only, actual numbers vary by build). This is utterly false and opposite. Both cap at 125, but beams draw more power per cycle so need more available to stay at 125. So that extra 25 power locked up in beams is weakening your aux, engines, and shields all just to stay at the same 125 performance cap.
That is what overcapping means: the amount of power over 125 required to stay as close to 125 as possible. It does NOT NOT NOT mean "increased max weapon power". But many builds do combine both increased max and overcapping.
Currently duals are higher damage than heavies depending on how many embassy consoles you have. Embassy consoles are worth significantly more damage than tactical consoles, especially on nonheavy cannons.
Unless you are a tippety top dpser or have over 40% crit chance base, the science ultimate will give almost as much bonus damage as the entire tactical tree combined (18% vs 19%).
And there is also the question of piloting, what % of the time are you using those heavies and what % are you turning while only rear turrets plink away for almost no damage?
Last, what specialization are you running, what duty officers, and what traits?
I always keep cannons pointed to the target (I even use GW to keep them together).
As for specialization: Pilot and Temporal Operative (temporal I got only 3 points for now: the DoT and the ones that debuff hull resistance)
duty officers: 2 that reduces cooldown on Engineering team, 2 that reduces cooldown on science team, a gravimetric scientist to create additional GW and warp core engineer that boosts power level when I use EPtX skills.
space reputation: +crit chance, +crit damage, Enhanced Armor Penetration, Radiant detonation AoE and Omega Graviton Amplifier
space traits ... i don't remember every one, but I got Opertative, Rom Operative, Elusive, Accuracy, Helmsman, Cannon Damage, the one that boosts speed and turn rate and others ...
However, as for Cannons Overcapping, how much power transfer rate should I have ?
As for now, I have 420% (the fleet sing core, EPS skill and 2 VR Mk XII EPS Flow Regs - I only have 2 eng slot
Right off the bat, I'd look into swapping out those four doffs that cool down your team powers.
Can you get the emergency weapons cycle trait?
And a few things I am assuming but good to be sure: you have the plasma explosion embassy consoles right? And an attack pattern (omega or beta) for each rapid fire or scatter volley? And which fleet core are you using?
If you snagged some Phoenix upgrades and especially if you have an agent of yesterday, going with the Iconian set is a solid damage move.
I hope this description will help explain Power Transfer Rate (EPS), weapon drain and overcap a little bit. It's not perfect but hopefully it will reveal the mysteries behind all of these things that may not always be so obvious.
The idea behind power management is to reduce weapon drain as much as possible without compromising the number of weapons, while keeping the balance between weapon drain and returned power in harmony. This will be a simplified and perhaps a slightly incorrect explanation of everything. But let's run with it for now to have a simplified understanding of how power management works.
Let's say you run a ship with 7 beam arrays and 1 torpedos. With their weapon drain at 10 per item, your maximum power drain would be 70 if all of them were to fire simultaneously and continuously. Let's say your total overcap is 160 power units. This means that during your initial barrage the last weapon to drain power would fire at 90 weapon power. It would have the lowest damage out of the 7 arrays.
Now, beam arrays have an attack cycle (four attacks) of 4 seconds. Let's say that during those 4 seconds no weapon drain occurs because all 7 arrays fires simultaneously. Normally they wouldn't and you would see a power drain occur every second. Anyways, let's say during 4 four seconds no power drain takes place. If you have 100% Power Transfer Rate (EPS) you gain 5 power units per second. In 4 seconds you would have recovered 20 power units that you can add to the current power level which would be 90, giving you 110.
But what happens next? The 7 arrays fire again and you see another 70 power drain if they were to fire simultaneously. The first weapon would fire at 110 while the next would have 100 power units at its disposal. The third would have 90 and it then declines to the 7th weapon which would fire at 40 power units.
And as this goes on you keep bleeding your power reserves dry because the EPS cannot keep up with the power drain. Of course, this scenario would not be seen because it's virtually impossible to have all 7 weapons fire at the exact same time. In a real scenario the last firing weapon in the sequence would have 50~70 power units at its disposal, which is still quite low. Because you have to keep in mind that the other 6 weapons will have anything from 70 to 125 units at their disposal. It means a big loss in DPS and overall damage.
The idea is to use your 125 weapon power as base, and minimize the gap between the lowest average power during a continuous firing sequence and the maximum power. When you can get your power management up to very high standard it is very possible to run with 8 beam arrays with drains of ~25 counting from 125. That means that it is possible to reduce and keep the peak dip within the range of 100~115 max power, that even during a full broadside and with no abilities and traits involved.
Now, since you run with cannons all you have to do is run some tests and see what your peak dip in power is. Then you just replace my formula of beam arrays and their attack sequence with that of cannons. Use that number to figure out how much EPS you need, and how much overflow you need for a balanced power return, and how much overcap you need for a powerful initial barrage.
But it always comes down to returned power per second versus drained power per second. Cannons are no different. You don't have to count it by per second. With beam arrays you can use 4 seconds as a reference number, and then use how much returned power you get in those 4 seconds. If cannons have a firing sequence of 2 seconds then you go by that. You can also make it easier by using 2 seconds times 5 cycles for 10 seconds total attack duration. 100% (5 units/second) would mean 100 returned power in 10 seconds, and with dual heavy cannons' drain of 12 you would have an X amount of total power drain during those 10 seconds. Subtracting returned power with drained power and you will have - + something.
It normally lands at minus (-) and the goal is to reduce that number. The higher that minus is, the less efficient your power management is. I hope this helped some and I hope it wasn't too confusing.
Either way, think of the video as something that showcases hopefully good power management with 8 beam arrays. In addition, you can see what I would consider a very strong build that puts in a good and solid combination of power management, crit, raw damage, defense and mobility.
Since this thread focuses on power management I recommend that you focus on the power level indicators. Of course, you can watch the video more than once to pick up different details here and there such as speed, crit and so forth.
Intel Dreadnought (Vengeance class) with 8 beam arrays in Khitomer Advanced
1st DHC does not draw power: Weapons Power still 125
2nd DHC draws 10,8 power: Weapons Power is 114
3rd DHC draws 10,8 power: Weapons Power is 103
having 420% transfer rate, I should recover 5 points before the fourth cannon start firing, so now i have 108 power.
4th DHCs draws 10,8 power: Weapons Power is 97
Then it comes back to 125, I remember that perfectly: 1st DHC always start firing at 125 weapons power.
I didn't even considered the turrets and KCB, cause I'm not sure when they start firing, but I think they should start right after the 1st or the 2nd DHC, so the power level of the others should be even lower ...
The problem with cannon weapons is that they fire too quickly: I fire all weapons in 1 second !
I should have 1600-2000% power transfer rate to keep the power level high.
That's why it looks like beams are stronger: because they ARE stronger.
I didn't see any top dps build running cannons, maybe I should start running beams too.
They are too much better: great firing arc, optimal firing cycle, more viable skills ...
@nephitis: what is your power transfer rate ? 400% ?
@gavinruneblade:
Yes, Plasma Explosion Consoles.
Yes, Attack Pattern Beta 2-3.
The one that lower weapons power drains and boosts power transfer rate: I think its name is: thoron infused elite sing core.
and yes, I'm looking for Damage Control Engineers, to reduce cooldown on EPtX skill (they costs a bit too much for now
Maybe part of the problem is that I still don't have a space set (the only one I have is KCB + Assimilated Console) but I'm looking forward to get an Iconian One: it does boost my Damage too, right ? On the wiki it just says it boosts allied ones
But even so I should do at least DECENT damage, but I still can't kill a single tholian in CC advanced.
At any rate, I may be one of the very few people to strongly advise against set bonuses. They are by no means bad, but you can severely reduce the potential of your build by not using the very strong combinations of mixed gear out there.
As for the Tholians in CC Advanced. They can be a pain to kill, even for my own build. For some reason they are just ridiculously resilient in that STF.
Instead you should focus on more tangible numbers to elevate your feeling of progress and success. For example, you can use the displayed damage in the tooltip window to get a better grasp of how much damage you can do. If you look at my video you can see in the very beginning that with full stacks of Superior Pedal to the Medal my tooltip damage is already at 2300~. Once I trigger Emergency Power to Weapons that damage jumps to 2500~. Once I start attacking targets, leeching their power and working my max weapon power toward 130, that damage jumps up to ~2800. And with Attack Pattern Alpha that damage jumps to a whooping 3600 damage.
And of course, this is with beam arrays. Cannons should display a different range of damage. Unfortunately I don't have those numbers for you. To make it easier for yourself you just have to slap on one single beam array and use it for damage reading.
But I can immediately say that you are off to a good start if you can get a tooltip damage reading of 2000~ (beams) when you are leeching power. From there you can add an X amount of damage to get an idea about the potential damage during a buffed scenario. Similarly, you can also subtract a Y amount of damage to find the peak dip during a weapon power drain. This allows you to find the min and max of your attacks.
Just to give you an idea of where the low end, midrange and high end ranges are. For high end builds their unbuffed max is ~2000 while their lowest dips are ~1500. Midrange builds may find their damage to be ~1800 as their max and ~1200 as their lowest. Low end builds may find their max to be around 1500 with their lowest dip as low as 500.
In my Emergency Power to Weapons and leeched state, my consistent max is 2800 while my lowest dip is 2300. What is important to understand with all of these different ranges, is that we are talking about each attack for each array. And once you start adding damage buffs, resistance debuffs (armor penetration etc.) and critical damage we'find ourselves in a much larger gap of damage ranges between the different tiers.
But imagine a low end build, with its max at 1500 and the very lowest dip of 500. It means that most of the arrays will hit, according to the tooltip, in the ranges of 500~1200. Why not 1500 one might ask? Because that would be during the initial barrage. The power transfer rate would not have the chance to recover enough power during a continuous and prolonged attack.
Hopefully this will give you an idea of your level of power management. But if you are at 400% already you are already off to a good start.
I only have 400% with 2 EPS Flow Reg (Mk XII - purple) and a Fleet Sing Core. I'm stuck at 420% and I have no idea how to further improve it !
Also, I noticed you had great speed and turn rate, even in a dreadnought: i have an escort warbird and I barely get that speed !
I mean: your ship have everything !
Damage, speed, resistance ... how did you get that ?
May I ask you what is your build ?
Finally, I have to point out that I can't use Pedal to the Metal: in order to maintain DHCs on target I need to stop, or I would lose much more damage.
Would this work on a Kelvin cruiser or such, too?
Might one ask what you used to make that build? o_o
Make that one more that is curious.
I spend most o fmy time on builds that are fun for me first and worry about damage last. I have a T5 Ambassador on a Rumulan for example with Romulan Plasma weapons and the Romulan set. It may not be optimal but it still works enough to make it fun. However, I haven't had a serious DPS build in a few years and I think a lot of the changes that I can't be bothered to keep up with are a big part of that.
Seeing one's build is one thing, but a full understanding as to why that build is as effective as it is for what it is and how to take that and create something similar in effectiveness without copying, is my curiosity.
I see you points, but I really need to understand what PTR (power transfer rate) is optimal for a cannon boat and how to get that.
I want to know the tricks to get top builds, not because I want to be top 1 DPS, but because I'd like to be able to play elite content and maybe PVP ...
I like how SOB covers top-end builds and tactics in his YT channel. He's shown really well that cannons may not be as powerful as beams, but they are still really good performers in the right hands. The following videos cover both his builds and how he uses them in his runs.
His videos have helped me a lot in setting up my own cannon builds. I'm still working on acquiring gear (running MkXII UR Fleet weapons and just MkXII VR tac consoles from drops because I still lack Fleet Credits for proper locators), but the ship (Fleet Phantom) is already good enough to run in all of the Elites when paired up with an aggro-build (escorts are squishy).
So far I have learned that apart from managing arcs, keeping uptime helps a lot. Withering Barrage (from the T6 Defiant) will let you keep your Scatter Volley almost always up. On a good ISA run almost all my hits would be from Scatter Volley and I have very few normal shots out.
If you don't have a parser yet, I highly suggest you get one. It lets you dive into the run and analyze exactly how your weapons are firing, your actual crit rates, how well you are surviving and more. Get a lot of runs in and find out your average performance then make tweaks to your flying and build depending on what the detailed analysis says (don't just rely on the final DPS number). Sometimes changing when you use X ability or where you position your ship makes huge changes in your overall performance.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/comments/3ydhn8/eps_and_fleet_spire_cores/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=comment_list
This is a detailed explanation of power transfer.
https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/comments/45g9v4/cannons_and_eps/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=comment_list
This is a step-by-step look at cannon fire and power, through a full cycle.
I got the T6 version: I run only 3 exploders cause I used 1 slot for the assimilated module.
Since the 2 eng slots are for EPS flow regulators.
So you say I'd better go with DCs instead of DHCs ? I read somewhere that DHCs vastly outclasses DCs ...
I was lookin for a way to mitigate the power drain, so I saw the Morrigu trait that seems really good at that ...
Morrigu set is also pretty good, but it only works on Mogai-class ships (damn you cryptic for this) !
Do you know other ways to reduce the weapons power drain ?
But you see, that's the point: why should I take a weapon that is more difficult to use (due to its narrow fire arc) if I can get another one that is easiest to use and its even more powerful ?
Am I the only one who think this is bulls*it ? Am I the only one who thinks devs should buff cannon weapons ?
Back in the thread: I saw many different opinions on the matter.
This is mine: EPS is not useful on cannons, so I'd better focus on power drain reduction.
is that a good way ?
DHC are more powerful than DCs. However, DHCs lose their CrtD bonus when under Scatter Volley (just view the tooltips when you activate Scatter Volley). On builds like SOB's that use Withering Barrage, you will almost always have CSV up and running. That narrows the DHC vs DC gap quite a bit. Then DCs also fire at faster rates so you get more chances to proc per shot procs like the embassy console explosions.
Before you start buying stuff, you can run your build through the calculator linked below:
https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/comments/4rxl9j/updated_sto_weapons_power_calculator/
It's pretty spot-on, showing that my lowest power level while firing cannons is at 100 weapons power with a PTR of 15/s (300% EPS).
For some of us, we enjoy the challenge or try something different. It's why some of us run torp boats, or full science builds. Beams are indeed the easiest path to high damage output and the way the game currently works dictates that you'll get a higher overall DPS ceiling on a beam ship but as I posted earlier, you'll still be able to get way more performance than you'll ever need with other builds so long as you know how to use them.
The devs did cannons right by reducing their damage drop-off with distance. IMO they still need to tweak cannons a bit. Maybe make Scatter Volley hit a max of 5 targets instead of the current 3.
Now the reason why I am suggesting you post a complete build (ship setup, BOff abilities, DOffs used, traits) is because the problem you are describing (difficulty killing Tholians in CCA) points to a problem that is beyond EPS.
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Here's my actual build: http: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/7b21b4f6e7a9723bc116abe159a07407
I'm working on gettin a Plasmonic Leech and maybe, for the next century, a T6 morrigu warbird for its trait that reduces weapons power drain !
However: what do you mean they lose their critD ? they lose all the crit severity or just their innate one (their innate +10%) ?
Also, lets say I switch to DC: won't I loose DPS ? I mean, now I get good 20/30k damage spikes with DHCs, I believe I won't get the same with single cannons ... also, won't they drain a lot more power than DHCs ?
DHCs drain 12 power twice, DCs drain 10 power but they fire 4 times !
And there are not different opinions, just different ways to say the same thing. EPS is good, power is good. You have been given a link to a calculator that will help the out see which helps you more.
I have read the links: they basically say "Go Eng, get cruisers, fu*k tac, escorts and cannons" ...
That's sad, really ! Balance is not something you can find on this game anymore
However, I got the answer I wanted: with cannons, EPS is not that useful and its better going with power drain reduction.
KDF side, and yes, I got the valdore console.
But its not useful since the other consoles of the valdore set are only equipable on Mogai-class warbirds, and since I don't like those ships, I can't get their nice bonus (another 25% power drain reduction) T_T
Or you could always go for a both? That's what I did with my build. But do keep in mind that there are "diminishing" returns when it comes to -Weapon Power Cost. For example, Command - Weapon Efficiency will provide you with a flat 25% bonus because it's calculated first. Anything else is calculated after that, so their % bonus will be applied to the current reduced value.
This means that the Spire Warp cores (-10% cost), the Bounty Hunter console (-10% cost) as well Emergency Weapon cycle trait (-25% cost) will reduce a power cost of 10 down to 5, and this together with Command - Weapon Efficiency.
Needless to say, by combining EPS with high weapon power overcap and (-) weapon drain I think you can create a very powerful cannon build with solid power management. And if Pedal to the Medal is not a trait for you should you prefer to be stationary, then the Anchored trait might be worth looking into.
And if you are looking to get the Plasmonic Leech console I also highly recommend investing some in Drain Expertise from gear. You do not have to compromise your build in favor of Drain Expertise, but there are very strong options out there such as the Terran deflector and the Temporal shield.
I know, but I don't really like it !
Its too slim, too large ... it looks like a paper sheet
The Ar'Kif, instead, is majestic, royal ... it looks like a D'Deridex, but more beutiful *_*
I still have to understand why cryptic make ugly ships stronger than the beutiful ones ...
The valdore console seems really nice: I'll try it !
Same as for Dual Cannons ...
As for the Assimilated Module ? Should I keep it ?
Its nice with its +5 power to weapons (I have problems in getting base 125 power: as for now, with Assimilated Module, I got 122 weapon power ... of course, I always keep EPtW3 up, so it shouldn't matters, right ?).
That would be the best, but is it possible for me to do that ?
Consider this: Warbirds, especially escort warbirds, don't have cruisers commands, so I can't have Weapons Efficiency.
Devs made 2 out of the 3 Mogai-set consoles available ONLY for those ships, so I can't get the 2pc set bonus (which would have been another -25% power drain reduction).
I don't have access to intel and command bridge skills, which have some nice skills to reduce power drain ...
I only have 2 engineering console slot, so I can't equip more than 2 EPS flow regs, so I can't get more than 460% power transfer rate ... 500% if I use a normal Plasma-Integrated Sing Core, insted of the Spire one.
But it looks like 500% its not nearly enough for cannon builds ...
Really, it keeps on raining sh*t
I was thinkin about taking a normal Thoron Infused Sing Core (-15% weapons power drain) the Morrigu Trait (-25% weapon power drain), Plasmonic Leech and 2pc Borg Set (KCB and Assimilated Module). That should keep the power drain halved, and save 2 console slot ... which I can use for the Valdore Console, which looks nice.
Also ... are there any nice Doffs that can help me boosting my damage ?
this is my actual build: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/7b21b4f6e7a9723bc116abe159a07407
https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/comments/5ifd7z/power_drain_mechanics_a_review/
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