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Your Captains Morality

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    nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    My captain's moral compass was thrown overboard a long time ago. I've committed mass genocide against every single species in the sto universe at this point.
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    kikskenkiksken Member Posts: 664 Arc User
    Yep... some can bring you that far, true.
    Klingons don't get drunk.
    They just get less sober.
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    jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,370 Arc User
    Also, to be "genocide" you have to be determined to eliminate an entire genome. Shooting a few thousand representatives of a population numbering in the billions (or trillions, in some cases) is no more "genocide" than stepping on a single ant constitutes eliminating the entire hill.​​
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    nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Also, to be "genocide" you have to be determined to eliminate an entire genome. Shooting a few thousand representatives of a population numbering in the billions (or trillions, in some cases) is no more "genocide" than stepping on a single ant constitutes eliminating the entire hill.​​

    I'm pretty sure I've killed more then "a few thousand" of most of the species in the game. Think about how many borg cubes you've destroyed. How many borg are there per cube? I bet if there was a tally of how many borg I've killed that it would number in the millions. Additionally, we had a mission in game where our captains were going back in time to ensure the end of the Iconian civilization. There are no options to talk to enemy ships we destroy them. Every ship we destroy has a crew numbering in the hundreds and it's basically seen as no big deal.
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    Klingons Perish , Humans Survive
    Again though, it's not genocide unless you're destroying Borg ship in an attempt to eradicate the Borg.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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    gradiigradii Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    Humans are easily the best and most interesting race in star trek, every other species is designed to just show us an example of some aspect of humanity to an exaggerated degree.

    "He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
    Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
    he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
    In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
    He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
    He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
    He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
    He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
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    jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,370 Arc User
    I've managed to destroy maybe a few thousand Borg.

    Out of trillions.

    Might as well claim that washing my hands commits "genocide" on various bacteria, rather than not even making a dent in the total population.

    (Oh, and in my defense, the Borg always shoot first. It's not my fault their version of negotiation is "Surrender and be assimilated.")​​
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
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    ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,571 Arc User
    Why am I not surprised on that choice.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
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    freightstopperfreightstopper Member Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    gradii wrote: »
    Humans are easily the best and most interesting race in star trek, every other species is designed to just show us an example of some aspect of humanity to an exaggerated degree.

    An individual human maybe be smart, clever, interested in bettering themself.

    Humans as a group display the same mob / herb mentality of sheep or cattle along with similar intelligence, IE - NONE whatsoever.
    The Ferengi have a strong moral code called the Rules of Acquisition.

    It makes them morally superior to the federation, which is sanctimonious because of paternalistic attitudes like the 'prime directive.'

    Since the whole point of the Prime Directive is to be broken as often as possible...
    jonsills wrote: »
    I've managed to destroy maybe a few thousand Borg.

    Out of trillions.​​

    Since Borg cubes apparently have crews ranging from 5,000 (five thousand) to 129,000 (one hundred and twenty nine thousand), according to Memory Alpha, blowing up 10 (ten) cubes comes to 50,000 (fifty thousand) to 1,290,000 (one million, two hundred and ninety thousand) dead Borg.
    However if you use the crew total from Memory Beta which is 640,000 (six hundred, forty thousand) per cube times by 10 (ten) equals 6,400,000 (six million, four hundred thousand) dead Borg.

    So if you've only fought the Borg in the Episodes and only done those few missions the once and have not done any STFs / queues, then yes you might have killed just a few thousand, otherwise it's millions.


    please note brackets for clarification only
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    neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    Bajorans Perish , Cardassians Survive
    Is it my birthday?
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    jodarkriderjodarkrider Member Posts: 2,097 Arc User
    More appropriate here. :smile:
    /Moved
    [10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.

    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
    "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
    "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9] 
    "Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy

    Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider

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    gradiigradii Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    An individual human maybe be smart, clever, interested in bettering themself.

    Humans as a group display the same mob / herb mentality of sheep or cattle along with similar intelligence, IE - NONE whatsoever.

    A group of humans is nothing but a group of individuals. the group mentality you mention can be said of any species, all of which are fictional by the way.

    Humanity however, is real.

    "He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
    Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
    he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
    In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
    He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
    He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
    He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
    He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
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    ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    My captain wouldn't make the choice: you're effectively asking us to play God, to judge which species has the superior right to exist. Sorry, but my captain couldn't make that choice - no species has more or less right to exist than any other. Sure, you can get rid of many of that species' most villainous tyrants, but you'd be getting rid of their innocents, their philosophers, artists, children who have committed no crime and done no wrong. That would make the captain who made that choice the highest of murderers - an individual who exterminated an entire race for the actions of a single component of it.
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    starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    The strong will survive. The weak will perish. :tongue:
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
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    sthe91sthe91 Member Posts: 5,487 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    The strong will survive. The weak will perish. :tongue:

    Just what basically Charles Darwin said in his book Origin of Species which has another title Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life. Glad I do not subscribe to those racist ideals which also fed the rise of Nazism as well as the movement of eugenics. As for the extermination of species, I will not do it. I am called to love God and love my neighbor which includes my enemy as myself. So I do not support the wiping out of anyone, I believe all the species can be given a second chance just like I believe that Sela can reform if she pursues that path. God bless. Have a beautiful day! :)
    Where there is a Will, there is a Way.
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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    Cara says "Pentaxians survive, Devidians perish..." and she should know, she kills them by hand!
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    starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    sthe91 wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    The strong will survive. The weak will perish. :tongue:

    Just what basically Charles Darwin said in his book Origin of Species which has another title Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life. Glad I do not subscribe to those racist ideals which also fed the rise of Nazism as well as the movement of eugenics. As for the extermination of species, I will not do it. I am called to love God and love my neighbor which includes my enemy as myself. So I do not support the wiping out of anyone, I believe all the species can be given a second chance just like I believe that Sela can reform if she pursues that path. God bless. Have a beautiful day! :)
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    First of all, I was making an Undine joke as @Jonsills correctly pointed out (although not in reference to their defeats in-game, but rather just to poke fun at the format of the poll options). "The strong will survive, the weak will perish" has been their catchphrase since they first appeared in Star Trek: Voyager.

    Second, Charles Darwin specifically repudiated any possible ideas of so-called "social Darwinism" in his writings, stating that what makes humans special is our ability to work to overcome our flaws by choice rather than waiting for natural selection to do it for us. He was also very well-known during his lifetime for his public opposition to social injustice and poverty. Anybody who says otherwise is either badly misinformed or deliberately distorting what Darwin actually wrote for ideological reasons.

    Thirdly, I'm a baptized Methodist.

    Go do your homework before getting on the Internet next time, ya fundie twerp.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
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    wombat140wombat140 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    None of them.

    Remember, in Operation Annihilate! Kirk, for awhile, though he was going to have to scrag the colony on Deneb, yet an alternative did happen. To me, there's other ways. Like the fourth Doctor said to Leela, "Answers are easy, it's asking the right questions that are hard."

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    ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Ah...misunderstanding Darwin...happens all the time it seems.
    ryan218 wrote: »
    That would make the captain who made that choice the highest of murderers - an individual who exterminated an entire race for the actions of a single component of it.

    And? Sometimes you need to do bad things. A real hero would realize this and do what needed to be done regardless of what they maybe viewed as.

    A 'real hero' would find an option which saved everyone. No one is perfect (including my character). The fact remains, choosing a species to die requires him to decide which species has the better right to live. That's a judgement my captain is ethically incapable of making.
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    starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    ryan218 wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Ah...misunderstanding Darwin...happens all the time it seems.
    ryan218 wrote: »
    That would make the captain who made that choice the highest of murderers - an individual who exterminated an entire race for the actions of a single component of it.

    And? Sometimes you need to do bad things. A real hero would realize this and do what needed to be done regardless of what they maybe viewed as.

    A 'real hero' would find an option which saved everyone. No one is perfect (including my character).

    Sometimes you can't save everyone. But you can still do your best to save as many as possible. Still, if you've gotten yourself into the position where you have to choose between saving two entire sapient species, either the galaxy's in seriously deep sh*t or you and/or your organization haven't done your job properly.

    Good example from another franchise: In the concluding episode of the Shadow War arc in Babylon 5, "Into the Fire", the Vorlons and Shadows are both throwing planet-killers around and killing billions. They're headed for both Coriana VI and Centauri Prime, and Captain Sheridan chooses to stage his big knock-down-drag-out confrontation with the precursor species at Coriana VI because it has a population of 6 billion whereas Centauri Prime only has 3 billion residents.

    It's if you try to justify it afterward with "nature taking its course" or other such social Darwinist claptrap, instead of admitting that you just tried to pick the least bad of two or more sh*tty options, that you become the "highest of murderers". *glares daggers at Dr. Phlox*
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
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    ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    ryan218 wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Ah...misunderstanding Darwin...happens all the time it seems.
    ryan218 wrote: »
    That would make the captain who made that choice the highest of murderers - an individual who exterminated an entire race for the actions of a single component of it.

    And? Sometimes you need to do bad things. A real hero would realize this and do what needed to be done regardless of what they maybe viewed as.

    A 'real hero' would find an option which saved everyone. No one is perfect (including my character).

    Sometimes you can't save everyone. But you can still do your best to save as many as possible. Still, if you've gotten yourself into the position where you have to choose between saving two entire sapient species, either the galaxy's in seriously deep sh*t or you and/or your organization haven't done your job properly.

    Good example from another franchise: In the concluding episode of the Shadow War arc in Babylon 5, "Into the Fire", the Vorlons and Shadows are both throwing planet-killers around and killing billions. They're headed for both Coriana VI and Centauri Prime, and Captain Sheridan chooses to stage his big knock-down-drag-out confrontation with the precursor species at Coriana VI because it has a population of 6 billion whereas Centauri Prime only has 3 billion residents.

    It's if you try to justify it afterward with "nature taking its course" or other such social Darwinist claptrap, instead of admitting that you just tried to pick the least bad of two or more sh*tty options, that you become the "highest of murderers". *glares daggers at Dr. Phlox*

    *I'm aware of that. That's my point. The basic definition of a 'real hero' is a hero who never fails, who is perfect. That's impossible.

    **Good example, although you'll recall Marcus effectively admitted that the choice wasn't 'heroic' - it was necessary. The needs of the many doesn't always equal the 'heroic' outcome. Of course, you can argue that no 'hero' thinks of themself as heroic.

    ***And in this case, my character doesn't know how many of each species are alive at one time. Nor does he know what combined potential either species has. He doesn't know which action will have the better (or lesser) impact on the universe. He doesn't know the lesser of two evils.

    I won't even attempt to make the point of 'the lesser of two evils is still evil', because as Doctors 10 and 11 said to War in 'Day of the Doctor' with regards to The Moment "you were The Doctor more than any of us. You were The Doctor on the day it wasn't possible to get it right."
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    starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    ryan218 wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    ryan218 wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Ah...misunderstanding Darwin...happens all the time it seems.
    ryan218 wrote: »
    That would make the captain who made that choice the highest of murderers - an individual who exterminated an entire race for the actions of a single component of it.

    And? Sometimes you need to do bad things. A real hero would realize this and do what needed to be done regardless of what they maybe viewed as.

    A 'real hero' would find an option which saved everyone. No one is perfect (including my character).

    Sometimes you can't save everyone. But you can still do your best to save as many as possible. Still, if you've gotten yourself into the position where you have to choose between saving two entire sapient species, either the galaxy's in seriously deep sh*t or you and/or your organization haven't done your job properly.

    Good example from another franchise: In the concluding episode of the Shadow War arc in Babylon 5, "Into the Fire", the Vorlons and Shadows are both throwing planet-killers around and killing billions. They're headed for both Coriana VI and Centauri Prime, and Captain Sheridan chooses to stage his big knock-down-drag-out confrontation with the precursor species at Coriana VI because it has a population of 6 billion whereas Centauri Prime only has 3 billion residents.

    It's if you try to justify it afterward with "nature taking its course" or other such social Darwinist claptrap, instead of admitting that you just tried to pick the least bad of two or more sh*tty options, that you become the "highest of murderers". *glares daggers at Dr. Phlox*

    *I'm aware of that. That's my point. The basic definition of a 'real hero' is a hero who never fails, who is perfect. That's impossible.

    **Good example, although you'll recall Marcus effectively admitted that the choice wasn't 'heroic' - it was necessary. The needs of the many doesn't always equal the 'heroic' outcome. Of course, you can argue that no 'hero' thinks of themself as heroic.

    ***And in this case, my character doesn't know how many of each species are alive at one time. Nor does he know what combined potential either species has. He doesn't know which action will have the better (or lesser) impact on the universe. He doesn't know the lesser of two evils.

    I won't even attempt to make the point of 'the lesser of two evils is still evil', because as Doctors 10 and 11 said to War in 'Day of the Doctor' with regards to The Moment "you were The Doctor more than any of us. You were The Doctor on the day it wasn't possible to get it right."

    Well, you'll notice I haven't selected a poll response either. Without any actual context for the choice this poll is really just asking which Trek species people like the least. If there was a Borg option I admit I'd be all over that, though: exterminating them is kind of inherently the lesser of two evils.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
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    ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    He was also very well-known during his lifetime for his public opposition to social injustice and poverty. Anybody who says otherwise is either badly misinformed or deliberately distorting what Darwin actually wrote for ideological reasons.

    I think there might be confusion around this because Darwin's cousin was behind one of the first major papers on Eugenics (which he based off of a Basset's Hound breeding guide - yes he actually compared wiping out the world's poor to breeding a West Highland Terrier and a German Schnauzer to create a Wowser). It's a well-known fact that many eugenics-based organisations used Darwin's work as a justification for their ideology, but it seems no one has bothered to point out to the general public that it was his cousin who actually advocated that rubbish and have allowed the myth of social-Darwinism (namely the Darwin part) to endure.
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    smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,665 Arc User
    ryan218 wrote: »
    My captain wouldn't make the choice: you're effectively asking us to play God, to judge which species has the superior right to exist. Sorry, but my captain couldn't make that choice - no species has more or less right to exist than any other. Sure, you can get rid of many of that species' most villainous tyrants, but you'd be getting rid of their innocents, their philosophers, artists, children who have committed no crime and done no wrong. That would make the captain who made that choice the highest of murderers - an individual who exterminated an entire race for the actions of a single component of it.

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