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Star Trek without the sci-fi
tilarta
Member Posts: 1,801 Arc User
in Ten Forward
An assertion has been made that if you had removed all the sci-fi future tech from Star Trek and made into a show about wooden sailing ships, it would still be as successful as it is now, on the strength of good scriptwriting/story.
So I thought, let's find out what the STO Players think of that idea.
Would you have still be interested in the franchise if it didn't have any sci-fi at all?
So I thought, let's find out what the STO Players think of that idea.
Would you have still be interested in the franchise if it didn't have any sci-fi at all?
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
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There are plenty of successful historical fiction shows and movies, including a fair few naval ones, and in that genre the show could certainly have found an audience, but it probably wouldn't have had as wide an appeal.
The sci-fi is connected to everything in ST. O_O
But if you set the series in space in the distant future, well... any interesting thing a writer can dream up is now available to make a good story.
Which is funny because that phrase was coined by Gene in reference to an actual series, so that he could convey his pitch for Star Trek more effectively.
So that earth-based historical series about exploration was already made and lasted eight years. Which was more successful in the end, Wagon Train or Star Trek?
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Okay, so the idea would have to be transposed to a disgruntled brother or cousin, rather than a literal splitting of the person, but it could still work... Even the episode of DS-9 where Worf fired on a civilian transport could be modified to work in a naval setting, such as by the other ship having flown a false flag...
Trek has always been about the people, not the technology, that's just a part of the world they live in.
(Oddly enough I find it slightly more interesting when I meet it in real-world historical novels. It could be because Star Trek tends to keep the details of Starfleet a bit vague so as to give the writers elbow room, which makes it seem less real. If it's clear that the situation has real, definite rules you're immediately caught up in thinking what the options are for the character in their dilemma, how they might get out of it and what consequences are they facing if they don't. Whereas if it's a made-up situation sketched out in minimal detail just for this episode, all you know is what they tell you, just enough to set up the situation.)
Star Trek might work equally well as fantasy instead of science fiction, though. I'd say it would have to be "low" fantasy - i.e. set in our real world, or something that looks like it, with the impossible elements entering that and coming as a surprise to the characters, rather than being set in a world where magic is normal (what they call "high fantasy"). That would keep that element of contrast the series has, of a bunch of ordinary human Air Force blokes being faced with these astounding things, and reacting usually with various forms of gallows humour. Or maybe it's just that I love low fantasy. Maybe it could be on the lines that I've seen in a few things (the "Troll Fell" trilogy is the only one I can think of right now), where it's a historical setting where there are a lot of legends floating around and people believe that magic and magical beings are real, just as they did in those days in the real world - only, in this case it's because they happen to be right. That would give you a realistic historical world as your background, but it would still be possible that a ship sailing far from home really would meet ghosts and monsters, and not everyone would believe them when they got home.
And the story with Worf depended on the fact that he assumed the ship he fired on might have been with the enemy. All doubt is gone if they're flying an enemy nation's flag at sea, just as there would have been no questions asked if the ship's transponder in that episode had identified it as an enemy ship.
So very many plots that just don't work without the "strange new worlds" conceit...
Good Kirk could dwell on the experiences which made his brother/cousin turn out the way he did, so be appreciative for his own circumstances, and actually have empathy for his brother/cousin for being in that situation and a victim of circumstance...
Yes, it did focus on Worf's assumption, but you're missing the point behind the point: The Klingon Empire was trying to discredit Worf. That is the situation which could still apply with a falsely-flown flag as being a machination of the enemy nation to discredit the officer in charge...
The details would have to be somewhat different, but there overall bones of the stories could still be used effectively to touch on those central themes of self-awareness/being framed for political reasons...
First off, let's remove any/all "political" and "war" stories from this discussion. False flag or false transponder code, effect is the same. Anti-Zion propaganda instead of anti-Semitism, effect same. Etc. etc. Should be fairly obvious that all they're doing in these cases is substituting the "sci-fi" equivalent of the traditional trope and running with it.
To me, a lot of what Trek did to cement it's popularity couldn't happen without the Sci-Fi. I agree with Jonsills above, Enemy Within was a lot less about the "impostorness" of the Good/Evil Kirk, and more about how being "pure good" or "pure evil" was grounds for failure, the good needs a touch of "evil" to function.
And even better, how would you do the Kirk/Spock/McCoy banter without the "more Vulcan than a true Vulcan" Spock, or the complete and utter oblivity to humanity of Data in an age-of-sail world where everyone has emotions and a human upbringing?
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
And in the scenario I described, with a brother/cousin, there is no 'imposterness' at all, but someone going up against a (near)mirror-image, so the whole exploration of good/evil still applies, especially if the 'good' brother may need to use dirty tactics to defeat his 'evil' brother... You can agree with him all you like, it doesn't change the fact that the story could still work, even if it is not exactly the same. You're both missing the woods for the trees...
What you call 'banter', between McCoy and Spock was mostly just racism, and the path to gaining respect, that can still be explored... Make one of the crew half-African/French/Spanish (or even simply a self-freed slave)
A Data analogue could involve a member of the crew being a savant... Captain Hero is required to look after his 'strange' nephew when his widowed-sister turns to madness and spinsterhood... At first, the cosseted and sheltered young man has no idea how to deal with the rest of the men, but is able to calculate navigational requirements faster than anyone else, and begins to learn to fit in with the crew... That didn't require too much effort to think up...
Or let's consider the episode Masks:
Captain Hero takes a landing party to a nearby shore, where they find the ruins of an unknown civilization. After eating the local fruits/drinking the local water, he and his crew begin to experience hallucinations, and take on new personas while getting to know the locals...
It could still be made to work.
If you want to insist on 1:1 exactitude, then no, not all will be adaptable, but if you're willing to engage a little creativity and think outside the box and within the era in question, it's honestly not so hard to see many of the stories (or at least the basic plot points) being translatable...
It wasn't wooden sailing ships, though....it was on a nuclear submarine.
I liked watching both Star Trek and Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea.
They may have both been Science Fiction, though.
I could have swore there was another show following the story of the crew on a pirate ship...I just remember it being b&w. Do not recall the title of the TV show.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Hmm, actually I've changed my mind after reading Marcusdkane's suggestions; looked at like that, it COULD work. A lot depends on not underestimating the "real world". The point about Star Trek - if the series is to be recognisably anything like Star Trek at all, other than that it involves ships - is that most of the stories involve strange or extreme situations and how people react to them. Well, stories set in the real world tend to limit themselves to "universal, everyday" situations, it seems as if it's sort of not considered literary good manners to bring in anything else. (One reason why I have trouble writing, I think. The things I'm used to aren't very normal or universal.) But all kinds of things happen in "real life". The hallucination idea, you could call that "science fiction" in the sense that it's fiction about some science, but it's not fictional science, so it could happen in a "realistic" story, if you do the lateral thinking.
Spock doesn't JUST need to be a different nationality, it needs to be a nationality that is very different in culture in some way, and inclined to be snobby about it, even as the British are being snobby about their superiority to him; so that you get the interplay from both sides of "I am NOTHING like you" - "Oh yes you are!". But there are plenty of possibilities for that. China would be the obvious example, Africa could work too. Heck, France, although you couldn't then have the things where he knows about things the others don't - but there would certainly be ALL the atmosphere.
Or, to look at it a completely different way, if the logic thing is more important than the foreignness thing, he could be a brilliant (British) scientist, and he thinks the sailors are all nincompoops and the sailors think he's a nincompoop, and they each have to gradually get used to the idea that the other might actually be some use for something.
I saw a mention on Memory Alpha of one of the writers describing Seven of Nine as being designed as "a kind of wolf-child". So that's a science-fiction thing that's actually based off a not-science-fiction thing, isn't it? And "wolf-children" of one kind or another are pretty common in Star Trek, it's not just her.
(I disagree about "The Enemy Within" being "all about self-awareness" and that anything else that does that would do the same job. There are a lot of other things that make that situation juicy; notably, the fact that in fact, BOTH of them are "the real captain". And if the "impostor" was a different person, what would be the payoff, what would you do with him at the end of the episode? The payoff in "The Enemy Within" is that they both end up being the captain again, including the one they've been thinking of as "bad".)
It's a lot harder to say, "Look what you made me do! Look at what you pushed me to!", when you're talking to yourself.
I got this Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea novel from some secondhand store and thought it was quite interesting.
However, since it wasn't a canon story (like the Trek novelizations), it actually gave me a false impression that the series was about something else.
I guess they were a little less honest in that time, it had a stamp on the spine that said official tv adaptation.
Is this the Pirate Show you had in mind?
The Buccaneers
And just for a laugh, here's a transcript of a scene from a sitcom:
Presenter: Welcome back to Hollywood's Biggest Blunders. Now let's watch actor Guy Hathaway audition for a very familiar role.
Director: Guy, this time, do it totally flat. No emotion.
Guy: Okay (pauses, takes breath)
Director: Action!
Guy: Fascinating Captain, these tricorder readings are just not logical (vulcan eyebrow)
Director: That's it! That's perfect! We found our Spock.
Guy: That's what you think sweetheart. I'm not about to play some pointy eared knowitall with no emotional range. Besides, nobody wants to watch some hokey space show. You want to know what the next big wave is? Vikings! That's why I'm doing a little show called Olaf the Conquerer. And I will not be needing this. (removes wig and walks off the set).
It's like that scene is supporting the point raised, that a sailing show couldn't be as successful as Star Trek, even if it was written for comedy and did not happen for real.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
In most of the stories the "science" in Star Trek was just a random smattering of technical words strung together with the actors pretending they meant something. The effect was essentially the same as if you relied on magic in a fantasy setting.
Star Trek is very much in the style of classic sword and sorcery tales, such as the classic Greek tales. Take the stories of Greek heroes Odysseus or Jason and they would be right at home with the type of adventures Kirk had.
Because they are just too common.
All that would achieve is just to push me away.
And that principle applies to everything, games, movies, etc, you make it only with fantasy and I instantly lose interest.
Only sci-fi draws me in.
But let's go with that for a moment, it works for Kirk, but Picard is an entirely different kind of captain.
He can fight you physically if he has to, but I get the impression he prefers to use his mind more.
So I'm not sure you could keep doing Kirk style stuff with someone who isn't Kirk.
I don't know how Sisko and Janeway would have worked under that format.
At least a seafaring based show would be moderately unique that it might find it's niche.
Off the top of my head, I can't recall any long lasting naval dramas.
Or even short lived ones.
If you know of any, feel free to name them.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
But what made Trek, Trek, was both the exact use of the plot points and the setting/history/motivation between them. One can write, back in the 60's, a show about discrimination. But it wouldn't have the effect that "Let that be your last battlefield" had because you couldn't do the whole "planet of hats" thing and have an entire world/society vanquished in a global war over said discrimination.
Or, if you want to start getting on the real controversial side, "Patterns of Force". Even as a kid, I somehow managed to see through the "TRIBBLE romp" that it looked like and saw commentary on the old "absolute power corrupts absolutely", "best of intentions gone awry", and the whole "anti semitism or other discriminations are bad" things. May have taken me a few years to put it all together (due to it's lack of airtime as such a controversial subject during the late 70s and early 80s), but it was there. Do that in an age-of-sail setting...
So, my ultimate standing: Can it be done? Maybe. Can it be done to the levels and impact that Trek managed to reach? No. Without that massive impact, could it have reached the heights that it has? I'd say most likely "no chance".
Who else, in all of literary history, can pull off saying "They'll just be repurposed into the new matrix" when discussing the Genesis Torpedo in Kirk's quarters during TWOK - and not have been declared a borderline megalomaniac or deranged person?
Where on this planet can you find a society or culture that could make the megalomanical "but logic dictated this as perfection" seem as a matter of course, then turn around and be willing to "correct" said problem because the "properly emotional and compassionate application of logic" demonstrates the "fixed" system would be a better one than the pure logic version?
Spock does this easily because of his alien heritage. Hard to do "alien" in anything but Sci-Fi.
And Data? You're little "savant navigator" would, by say season 4, have been "exposed to" enough of humanity and "corrective efforts to help him fit in" that he'd be written practically as a normal person. It took the introduction of the "fixed emotion chip" in the movies to finally get him to where he could understand what the people went through, then they could milk his lack of familiarity with how the chip "messes with his decision making" to keep him more "outcast" than "regular human".
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
(What you say about the "emotion chip" thing reminds me of an autistic person, in fact! As a rule, it's not that we don't have emotions, what we have a problem with is processing what some of them are or what we're meant to do about them, so we tend to just ignore them or occasionally, if they get too big to be ignored, panic and run around in circles.)
Again, I suppose it comes down to not underestimating what strange things there are in the real world.
No. Because it doesn't work without getting silly. Basically, every show I like to watch that's not straight forward comedic or satiric needs to have some sort of fantasy/sci-fi/supernatural flavour or else I get bored for all the reality based edginess that will get silly at some point.
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China, Japan and North Korea are potential candidates... Again, you're focussing on unnecessary exactitude. Perhaps the other crewman isn't hyper-logical, but completely lackadaisical, and everyone else despairs about his lack of urgency in a crisis... The point isn't the difference, but that a difference could be selected and used for narrative purposes. Again, you're missing the woods for the trees
Firstly, you're using a strawman: You can't say how a hypothetical character/series would be written to such a definite extent.
Secondly, ever encounter anyone on the autistic spectrum? I can assure you that while they may learn some social graces, it's far from a definite proposition, and some folks on the AS spectrum go through life never 'fully assimilating', and why would they? Being neuroatypical is not something which can actually be corrected. Beat up an autistic kid to try and get him to fit in, and hey, he's still autistic, and now thinks that the whole world's out to get him...
Thirdly, even with the emotion chip, Data's behaviour was still 'less socialized' than it had been in say Season 4. Stuff like that, really is at the whim of the writers... (look how inconsistently Captain Janeway was written as an example)
Since you did, that's rather a good example of what I said about the real world being stranger than writers give it credit for. A person whose mind intrinsically works differently from ordinary people's is NOT something that's restricted to science fiction!
As for Spock: I haven't seen The Wrath of Khan so I don't know the scene you're referring to, but clashes similar to those recurring "Is Spock SERIOUSLY suggesting what I think he's suggesting?" scenes could occur over other things than "logic". You'd get the same kind of ongoing tension anywhere where, for reasons of totally different culture, one member of the crew sometimes thinks something is appropriate that the others would find totally unacceptable and shocking. If the cultural difference was something else it would be a different story, but just as interesting a one. I once read (rather simple example, but you see the point) about a tribe called the Fore in New Guinea who ate their dead. When European missionaries found out about this they were horrified by this "disrespect" and insisted that they must give them a "proper burial". But the Fore tribesmen were equally horrified by that - to them, not eating a dead body was disrespectful, as if you were saying the late lamented wasn't even fit to eat and should go in the rubbish!
If TOS was set in the age of sail, at least that would mean there couldn't be any women in the crew! Not that I have any problem with the idea of there being women in the crew. The IDEA of that is one of my favourite things in it. But - with one obvious exception, who would definitely have to be in the sailing ship version, even if she had to be a man - all the female crew characters in TOS were just so terrible! (Well, I'd make one other exception; Yeoman Tamura is the only other one I can think of who appeared to have a clue what she was doing, and it's a real pity we didn't see her a second time.)
I wasn't refering to Wrath of Khan at all...