I also don't mind the idea of a stand alone faction of sto-specific races that might be from an area of the galaxy we have yet to explore. One of the issues is that existing factions that exist like the Dominion an delta quad races are in a state that could make for contradictions. Now a brand new faction of races don't have that fact, while also have so much room for interesting developing of their history an story-line.
that would never happen. This is Star Trek Online, not "bunch of things we made up and shoved into the star trek unvierse" online.
The only 100% original race they have made is the Defari, and there was so much backlash over Cryptic DARING to add a new race to Star Trek lore that they basically said they would never do it again.
Yeah I got to disagree there that is kinda the point of star trek to explore, and find new worlds an species, but also there has been many good an badly received races in the star trek universe from books to the TV series. Hell looking at it that is what many of the writers have done over the years putting in their own design an take of races that before their book or series aired/came out were not seen really. There are a lot of things that cryptic has said they would never do, and well good example is the connie release that they had said would most likely never get a tier six release, and so I will take a line of "we wont do that again" with a pinch of salt.
Like any new race in the star trek setting you will always have that vocal minority that hate or even love it, but than there is also the large amount of people that don't mind it an keep quite. Also I have seen enough players asking for playable Defari boffs, as well as even as a playable race choice for their captain.
Take your pick and then throw in a few dozen more. You have movies, novels, games, books, shows, animations, 1-shots, pilots, etc... and a bunch of artist renderings and concept works - all of which can or could be used to develop new Factions, whether from Factions mentioned in the past or from something STO comes up with on their own.
Only problem? Will they flesh it out enough to be a coveted addition to the game? Or will it just be the skeleton of a possibility, like much of the expansions have been?
keep in mind that the Doomsday device was supposed to be the a relic of an ancient multi-galactic civilization and that only one (maybe two?) were ever discovered in the films. STO stretched that to include thousands of them...so perhaps a run in with a group more destructive than the Iconians ever were?
So... considered any of the things from the books? Like the shows, many included things never mentioned before or since.
The entire "explore and find new races!" meme is just that, a meme. Star Trek, like any work of fiction, needed something other then the direct main cast to connect too in order to make the universe feel real, so many races such as the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Ferengi, Dominion, Borg, etc. etc. were the subject of many episodes and development, and its why those races are the ones fans like and cosplay as.
No one cares about random one off humans with nose ridges alien number 78 from TNG.
In general I'd agree, though there are exceptions, like the Children of Tamar from "Darmok". One off aliens, yet well remembered.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
keep in mind that the Doomsday device was supposed to be the a relic of an ancient multi-galactic civilization and that only one (maybe two?) were ever discovered in the films. STO stretched that to include thousands of them...so perhaps a run in with a group more destructive than the Iconians ever were?
So... considered any of the things from the books? Like the shows, many included things never mentioned before or since.
Expand upon this.
There have been three Doomsday devices featured in STO
1. In the Fed mission
2. In the temperoal War mission
3. In the Days of Doom PVE queue
I dont know where you got the idea that there were thousands of them from.
Did wonder, but didn't go to look. Thanks for the heads-up!
Simple: the queues are repeatable = thousands. heh. :P
And yeah, there have been many one-off aliens... Like EVERY ALIEN IN STAR TREK! They're designed that way. Only the Bajorns and Vulcans as well as the Cardassians and a couple of others (NOT the Klingons) were originally developed as a major part of the storyline when they were created. Then you had the critical character aliens, such as those on DS9 and Spock, etc. Odo's race didn't become a heavy Faction until a couple of seasons into DS9. And Klingons eventually were worked into the story later, but didn't start that way. Ferengi popped up from time to time.
What else?
You can take any of the aliens and develop them into a faction. Just depends on the writter's perspective. Now - how many 'Human' or homosapien alien offshoots/colonies have there been in Star Trek? Just to give a concept, but you can do the same thing with any of the alien species. Klingons might have a subspecies group (if they don't already). How would they deal in Star Trek? Perhaps the virus adapted a group of them into something else. Perhaps, like the Romulans/Remen, a group of Klingon evolved to a completely different environment.... and so on and so forth.
Ideas are easy.
Getting them 'fully' fleshed out and executed is what's hard.
Since by the way the game is run, the faction would have to be a mini faction that joins either of the two big ones (KDF and FED). Seems unlikely they would make a new faction that would work by itself alone. However lately a lot of things everyone said would never happen has happend... so here we go...
Dominion ?
Is too big to be a mini faction. Any twists and story turning to make them fit in and join the others would be lore breaking as hell. They should be thier own playable faction, or not playable at all.
Cardassian ?
Seems a like a very small group as they are now, could see them joining either KDF or Fed. But too small to work as thier own faction.
True Borg faction/Borg Collective ?
No sorry. That won't play storywise, aswell as they don't work well with the other faction. They should remain as an enemy faction only.
Liberated Borg faction/Borg Cooperative ?
eeeeeeeeeh... maybe? Could see them work as both thier own faction and as individuals joining the current player factions (former drones wanting to return home). Good amount of Borg ships they could fly, and maybe also give them access to a unique assimilated looking ship skins(diffrent from the borg set) when flying the ships of the faction they join.
"Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons." Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
Now... what if the primary ones everyone usually mentions weren't the ones you were looking at?
maybe the Grays make an appearance, or it turns out that the Caitans are really a satellite group from another galaxy sent to evaluate our galaxy for 'Acquisition' and 'Repurposing'. After all, unlike Borg assimulation, what worse than being a 'Raw Material' for something so far above us as to seem godlike in their sciences?
actually, @somtaawkhar, my original post on this thread just happened to fall after yours. Wasn't in reply to it until you replied to mine. As to relevance... hard to imagine that you can't seem to connect the dots when you read them. Doesn't take much imagination since my posts are as simple as possible for them to be. Most others follow my logic/illogic just fine. So I can't help you there.
Still... what has your last response to do with the question at hand: "What Species is left that can be a faction" or my reasoning?
Maybe some of the Gorn decide they've had enough of the KDF ruling them and boom ... the Gorn puns and jokes will never end!
There- you've Gorn and done it again.
It's not you- it's me. I just need my space.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
Since by the way the game is run, the faction would have to be a mini faction that joins either of the two big ones (KDF and FED). Seems unlikely they would make a new faction that would work by itself alone. However lately a lot of things everyone said would never happen has happend... so here we go...
Dominion ?
Is too big to be a mini faction. Any twists and story turning to make them fit in and join the others would be lore breaking as hell. They should be thier own playable faction, or not playable at all.
Cardassian ?
Seems a like a very small group as they are now, could see them joining either KDF or Fed. But too small to work as thier own faction.
True Borg faction/Borg Collective ?
No sorry. That won't play storywise, aswell as they don't work well with the other faction. They should remain as an enemy faction only.
Liberated Borg faction/Borg Cooperative ?
eeeeeeeeeh... maybe? Could see them work as both thier own faction and as individuals joining the current player factions (former drones wanting to return home). Good amount of Borg ships they could fly, and maybe also give them access to a unique assimilated looking ship skins(diffrent from the borg set) when flying the ships of the faction they join.
The dominion would make more sense as their own faction, which could show was happened within the gamma quad an the Dominion when Odo returned to the Great link. This would I think be the faction that would be the most desired, and with the greated degree of being well received by the fan-base and player-base if it were to be implemented.
Now for the Cardassians i think over having them be another mini-faction, it might be better to have them ally with the romulans, as they did have quite close diplomatic ties prior to the dominion war, which after both groups had their homeworlds ruined could be rekindled. That would buff the population of the romulan faction, while also giving them access to cardassian ships that could balance out their ship rooster. Also it would still lead into them choosing to ally with either the fed or klingon.
With the true borg or borg collective I do agree they should not be made as a faction, though i do think they are due a overhaul to make them more impressive, since they do still adapt an so could come back after assimilating some left over hulks from recent wars (like vaadwaur ships, Herald ships, and such).
Now liberated or cooperative borg is a bit different as I could see these being part of a delta quad faction as I even suggested, since they are still quite small in population numbers, but also are in abt of need of protection both from the borg seeking to re-assimilate them an other races that hold grudges against them when they were drones.
Hmm. Need some clarity here: Are you refering to Player Factions or Alien Factions? If Player, then Dominion and Borg-group Factions were already addressed by Cryptic as never being a Player Faction, just the rare player captain.
As for Cardassians, don't recall those ever being released as a player character, but I'd have to look again. If they have, then that's probably as far as the Faction will go in STO. But if they haven't....
Of course, asking for Cardassians or Dominion as a player race is along the lines of asking for a Vaadwar and some other Delta groups and would take some real serious tinkering of the storylines to make it believable. *shrug*
As for NEW POSSIBLE Factions? Those possibilities are endless.
A Dominion faction has always been on my want list for STO. With the Klingon faction reduced to Federation oets, we have no bad guy to olay. The Dominion would include Vorta, Changlings, Breen, Cardassians, Jem'Hadar, and which ever other races are included.
I don't know if you were paying attention or not, but according to canon, the Dominion no longer includes the Breen or the Cardassians.
The Dominion screwed the Cardassians over in the final days of the war. The only reason why the Breen joined the war is because the Dominion gave them Cardassian territory in exchange for their help in the war. When The Cardassians started rebelling, the Dominon bombed Cardassia, which would be another point in them not being with the Dominion.
The Breen no longer are allies of the Dominion primarily because the Dominion was asked to retreat to the Gamma Quadrant as part of the treaty. The Breen also lost any territory that was originally given to them as it reverted back to the Cardassian Union's control under the treaty.
I could see the Cardassians being added in a similar way to the Romulans. They're rebuilding after the war. They do their thing with support of the Fed and Klingons. After their initial Romulan Republic like arc plays out, they are, for whatever reason they cook up, forced to choose a side to ally with.
As far as those crying that the Galor and Keldon are in boxes already, gee it's a damn shame that tech doesn't exist to have faction specific lockbox choices. Oh.......wait a tick..........IT DOES! IT DOES! So, the argument could be made that the Galors and Keldons are being offered as reparations to the Feds, KDF, and Romulans like they established WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY back when the Cardy box first came out. And for the Cardies, they could get, I don't know what, maybe there's some kind of Dominion ship I'm forgetting that could be sold as "hey this is salvage we're fixing up!" Or, maybe, and this MIGHT take a bit of work but.........maybe they could give Federation aligned Cardassians something like......I don't know maybe an Excelsior would be the equivalent, and KDF aligned Cardassians would get like a Vor'cha or something, at least in regards to the Galor. Maybe T6 Galaxy and Neg'var for the Keldon. An argument could even be made to let them choose a Romulan ship the D'Deridex or the Mogai, as they'd be all on the same side. The lockbox thing can be solved. It's just a matter of what they think is acceptable. I know I for one wouldn't mind having a Cardassian flying around in an Excelsior.
Actually, according to the lore on the Cardassian Galor in the lock box, they were a forgotten surplus of vessels that were supposed to have went to the Federation and the Klingons in order to aid them against the Dominion by Legate Damar.
They could easily retcon this lore, but a Cardassian faction needs to have at least the Cardassian vessels. Ideas for what they could get should be in another thread.
Hate to say this but at this junction, the only species that can be made a faction would be the borg, unless cryptic in their infinite incompetence starts putting borg ships in boxes (Truth be told i expect that soon).
Cryptic is pretty much showing us they are not interested, in doing an expansion on the level of LoR ever again sad really, and with the console version being developed and worked on , what resources could they put into a new faction, tbh im starting to wonder how long the game has left , im only seeing money grab after money grab but nothing as far as real growth, even the console version is just a way to grab a new source of money.
Sure its a business as the white knights and cryptic fanbois would tout , but with newer and better games coming out and on the horizon, how long can this game compete with such titles like "No mans sky" and what not, sooner or later everyone will need to face facts that STO is not in a good place, and cryptic needs to relise whether you have the players or not ,new factions keep players already in game interested and will attract new players if for anything else so they can play their favorite race.
I'm no fanboy, but they have to feed the hamsters.
I'm not fond of the lockbox-thing but if it pays the bills then no one should hold that against Cryptic.
Previous posts indicate there are 2 main Factions, that's not the case anymore.
There is only the one Fed faction.
There are only 2 real options for viable Factions, Borg (Collective, not so much Cooperative but it's acceptable as well) and the Dominion (without...repeat...WITHOUT the Cardashians).
All other options are irrelevant.
I've posted this before and I'll post it again here:
What this game needs is an OpFor.
The Borg Collective has always been a threat and the Dominion's cold "relationship" can turn red hot.
PvP will become relevant again.
I would definitely be interested in their arcs prior to and post-Iconian War.
I would be more than happy to delete my current toons to make room for Borg/Dominion ones...and buy their shiny stuffs.
AND IT BETTER STAY THEIR STUFFS, CRYPTIC.
The only thing is that unless they are willing to make a brand new storyline separate from what's going on, it wouldn't make sense for where the Dominion come into the story. When they made the Romulan Republic, they received every episode that was considered cross faction. However, in the case of the Dominion, the only parts of the existing storyling they make sense to be in is the 2800 series and maybe Midnight. A major retcon to the story would have to be done for them or else starting them late level.
As for the Borg, the collective won't work as the nature of the collective means that playable characters there are impossible.
We could have a liberated borg faction, but it would have to be something that doesn't alienate lifers that can already make a liberated Human, Klingon or Romulan borg. They could actually explore the backgound of how the cooperative grew to be as big as they are, maybe include that the unimatrix zero individuals found their way to the Borg who became the cooperative. We know that Hugh joined the Cooperative as well, seeing as he is a liberated borg drone. Like the Dominion, there would be not so much story that would make sense with them before the Delta Quadrant arc so a new arc would have to take place.
Legacy of the Romulans. Could have been a great expansion. Now I am star empire guy, but the republic would have been fine, if they did not make you a slave to the Fed/KDF factions. To me that was just silly. Now most of you might not remember this, but way back before LoR, they asked the player base about what playable faction they should put up. The Majority said Romulans, but full faction. Then a few numb nuts came in said no just do a half faction tied to the Fed and KDf, and thats what the devs did. So I am not sure what the devs are thinking honestly these days.
As for playable faction, well not the Borg, despite cryptics attempt to end one of the great chapters in star trek history. The Borg have multiple queens, yes they have the queen, and if she goes another takes her place. Not to mention its mentioned many times over the Borg have thousands of systems not all in the Delta, Alpha, or Beta quadrants. So to me the Borg are still very much out thier. Liberated as a playable faction just seems like a more pitiful attempt to sell a badly written try to end all type of story for the Borg.
This leaves two possibilities. One is the cardassians, the story has opened up ample opportunity, and it is made clear that the cardassian government may be in fact in league with the true way. Thats what I took from the story . In that case you end up with what three factions? The only way I see this working out would be bringing the Cardassians back to their old ways, and rejoining the Dominion again. Having the Dominion return. The problem with that is their more then likely is not enough players to run that many factions. Three maybe four no way.
At this point if I were running things, which I am not, I would be on damage control. First I would find a way to turn the Romulans into a stand alone faction, not tied to either the feds or the Kdf. It could be done relatively easy. The only exception would be allot of story would have to be rewritten on the episode arcs for Romulans, and a maco/honor guard romulan variant would have to be made. After that I would work really hard on redoing pvping. Starting up a three way war. Not so difficult if you think about. Two factions pvp against each other the one, that loses faces off against the third faction.
I know dream land right?
Just saying I know allot of people like the cardassians but if I were you would be more quiet about it. Otherwise they may turn your favorite faction into another slave faction for the feds/kdf.
If I remember right, the poll specifically said for a choice "Playable Romulan." It didn't really specifiy whether or not it would be a playable faction akin to the Klingon or Federation or if it would be the Romulan Star Empire.
They made the decision not to let people play as the Romulan Star Empire as the current storyline dictated that the Empire was nothing more now than an Tal Shair led, Iconian puppet. You might not like the Romulan Republic and the decisions the devs make, but it's what is in the game and it's time to move past it.
I wouldn't call the Borg done yet. If the Borg weren't done in by Future Janeway's virus and our strike hasn't killed off the Borg, they aren't going anywhere anytime soon. They will never let us play as a playable borg though because there's really not much to play as. It would make more sense as a liberated borg, but maybe something that won't enrage the lifers with their Borg characters.
The Dominion will have to be a very special case and you'd likely have to play as a Jem'hadar, no female sex, little customization (I think they're clones) and no other species available.
As for the Cardassians, they are NOT all with the True Way. What you were probably getting from the story was the New Link, which was created by Laas. He seemingly found the remaining Alpha Jem'hadar that were left and started working on a new Dominion. They are not in league with the old link in the Gamma Quadrant.
We should trust that the Devs are doing the right decisions here. I don't care if we get a Cardassian faction like the Romulans. Just as long as they make it some how into the game as the 4th power in the game.
The reason is that more often than not I hear people talking about how they hate to re-tread old content to get up to speed, which to some extent leveling the kdf/rom/fed factions you are playing thru somewhat the same content. Where as with a delta quad faction you would be able to play thru completely different content that showcases what was happening specifically prior to the main factions arriving. Also I don't think that afew ships being in the lockboxes/lobi-store is that bad, since you can have versions of them still in the faction that are different enough to warrant them.
The problem with that is
1. It would take like 3 expansions worth to make enough content for a Delta Quad faction(for example) to reach from level 1 to the start of Delta rising
2. There was nothing going on in the Delta quad shortly before we got there, which was not too long after the Vaadwuar started their attacks.
Adding to the Delta quad backstory would introduce contradictions into the already established plot, and it would be weird since none of that stuff gets mentioned in Delta rising itself.
I can see the first problem/point as abit of a double sided sword of sorts, as it would yes take alot of time, but would also give alot of uniqueness an appeal to alts as well. It would make people that are burnt out on re-treading the same missions something to do, even if after the start of the delta rising we would mesh with the other factions again.
I highly doubt that there was nothing going on before we got their, since it does seem like the race that the voth were wanting to get the spheres to help deal with was the Vaadwaur, and even seeing the starting of the war with the Vaadwaur, as well as interactions of the other delta races would be enough. I was actually talking even before delta more like during the time of the us working in the spheres an such too.
Adding contradictions to the established plots, and having to add things into the existing missions to make things work is not that new. even before the Iconian war we had a issue like that in which they made changes an updates to the missions to flesh out that it was the Iconians we were dealing with, and also reworking on how some of the mission text worked to facilitate the narrative.
Well, a DQ story would make for an interesting creative writing challenge. It'd probably be best to start it off by focusing on the way things were before the Vaadwaur invasion, then make the mission where you choose an ally be after you decide you need help in order to deal with the Vaads.
I don't think that it would take 3 expansions worth of content to make enough for a Delta Quadrant faction. However the problem we face is that none of the groups in the Delta Quadrant were aligned before the Federation-Klingon-Romulan alliance entered the picture.
I think if there are any factions in the Delta Quadrant that they could make playable, it would robably be a Borg Cooperative faction. When you think about it, they already have 2 major enemies in that area: The Borg Collective who will stop at nothing to reassimilate them and the Octanti, who despise all the Borg. I'm not sure what we'd do exactly, but maybe they would be able to add the Cooperative homeworld as the major base of operations. Maybe the major missions could show the growth of the power by them adding the Unimatrix Zero borg and Hugh's splinter group to the mix.
All the cross faction missions though won't work really with the storyline until around the point of the Delta Quadrant storyline opening.
No offense, but the playerbase did this to themselves.
Everyone saw the release of LoR, the Romulan faction as a sign that by the end of the year, the Cardassian faction would be next, followed by a dozen more for just about every race in the 4 quadrants, when the harsh reality is that MMO's rarely add new factions to any game that has them. I knew from the get go that the Romulan Republic would likely be the only release of it's kind faction wise, because anything else is not feasible.
I guess a backstory would work in a story-arc for those factions listed above - IF they were completely unrelated to any of the current story-arcs, meaning absolutely no interaction of the captain of said faction with any of the rest of the game until they reached a specific point in the game (this would typically be End-game from the story concepts mentioned), in which they could move freely with other factions. This seperation isn't impossible, just implausible for the current business/game model of sto. There are ways around this, but my brain is foggy at the moment and I can't think of any.
They did the seperation of missions and space with the first part of the TOS storyline.
But you just have to look at games like WoW for the how new Factions work with MMOs.
or what @lucianazeta said. Doesn't dismiss the possibilities,though.
"If I remember right, the poll specifically said for a choice "Playable Romulan." It didn't really specifiy whether or not it would be a playable faction akin to the Klingon or Federation or if it would be the Romulan Star Empire.
They made the decision not to let people play as the Romulan Star Empire as the current storyline dictated that the Empire was nothing more now than an Tal Shair led, Iconian puppet. You might not like the Romulan Republic and the decisions the devs make, but it's what is in the game and it's time to move past it.
I wouldn't call the Borg done yet. If the Borg weren't done in by Future Janeway's virus and our strike hasn't killed off the Borg, they aren't going anywhere anytime soon. They will never let us play as a playable borg though because there's really not much to play as. It would make more sense as a liberated borg, but maybe something that won't enrage the lifers with their Borg characters.
The Dominion will have to be a very special case and you'd likely have to play as a Jem'hadar, no female sex, little customization (I think they're clones) and no other species available.
As for the Cardassians, they are NOT all with the True Way. What you were probably getting from the story was the New Link, which was created by Laas. He seemingly found the remaining Alpha Jem'hadar that were left and started working on a new Dominion. They are not in league with the old link in the Gamma Quadrant.
We should trust that the Devs are doing the right decisions here. I don't care if we get a Cardassian faction like the Romulans. Just as long as they make it some how into the game as the 4th power in the game."
True on the first part but I doubt they would have gotten the idea, if those players had not come up with that really bad idea. It is not that I can not move past it but, let me try to put this into my perspective here. They remove sector blocks, they remove most of the signal contacts, they removed the exploration zones key for R&D, they removed from what I can tell the diplomacy missions, and they still have not added in tier six klingon carriers based on the tier five/four ones. The diplomacy missions of old that you did on your ship were generic but fun. This is a tactical player talking. Then they turn around and add legacy of the romulans but only in part. I guess you could say my real problem, is they got time to remove allot of stuff, that has just made sector space bland as all get out now, but they didnt have time to put in a full Romulan faction? Nvm the fact that you have no trophy room on your Romulan ships, and those ground trophies aka heads sometimes, are just freaking awesome. I am starting to ramble...
Anyways myself, and in my opinion, many players would love to trust the devs. The problem is for me no communication is a killer. The dilithium problem is pretty extreme from what I hear when it comes to upgrades, not to mention everything else that costs dilthium. So where is the comment on this?
Where is the comment on why their is not kdf tier 6 carriers based on the old tier 4/5?
Where is the comment on the concerns of lack of customization on the console end?
I dont expect them to do what the players ask but a little information can build allot of trust
Tell you the truth but what really scares me is their response to the lack of customization on the console end, will be to eradicate it on the pc end. I just do not understand why devs now and days keep removing content from games, and they submit partially done content, and say we have done a good job. To me that is just TRIBBLE backwards.
As for the Borg I never said they were done, but that story they wrote was an attempt to end the Borg story, at least that is how it felt to me.
One last comment when I watched a old trailer on the borg in sto, it reminded me how much has been removed. I get getting rid of most of sector blocks, but this is where my confusion really sets in. Why connect the Borg area to the other sector blocks? Why not have the Romulan sectors in its on sector block? Why not have the federation sections in their own sector block? Why not have the Klingon sectors in its own sector block? It made sense to an extent but now sector space is so small.... Why remove the patrol missions? From what I can now they are random find missions. No where near as extensive as they once were. The signal contacts, yea I know I am strange. I would not mind being able to hunt them down for accolades, but now they are so rare its not even funny. To any new player I am not talking about the red alerts.
So you can see why I do not exactly trust developers these days. Just a little reprieve like drastically dumping the dil costs on things, or reopening the exploration areas for r&d would go a long way.
1. Is there some reason you lack the ability to quote people correctly? I see you do this all the time, does the quote button not work for you or something?
As you can see, one could fit the Cardassian Union twice over into the Breen Confederacy, or the Tholian Assembly. And you could fit the Romulan Star Empire into both individually as well.
Actually I have been wondering about that myself. I have been using the quote button and I have no idea why it has not been working the majority of the time for me.
I will build on what I said earlier, people need to stop expecting new factions, you're only setting yourself up for disappointment when it doesn't happen.
I said it before and I'll say it again: MMO's rarely add new factions, it's a TRIBBLE ton of work and any factions created years into the game will never have the population of what came before.
Contrary to what many people deluded themselves into thinking, the Romulan Republic wasn't followed up by a Cardassian or Borg faction release, it took them over three years for the first new 'faction' to be released, TOS, and it's not even a real faction, more like a TOS era Fed alternative tutorial and some flashy effect differences from present day Fed characters.
Stop trying to convince yourselves that Cryptic is just waiting for the right moment to release a faction for every race from Cardassian to Borg to Ocampa, it's not going to happen.
"If I remember right, the poll specifically said for a choice "Playable Romulan." It didn't really specifiy whether or not it would be a playable faction akin to the Klingon or Federation or if it would be the Romulan Star Empire.
They made the decision not to let people play as the Romulan Star Empire as the current storyline dictated that the Empire was nothing more now than an Tal Shair led, Iconian puppet. You might not like the Romulan Republic and the decisions the devs make, but it's what is in the game and it's time to move past it.
I wouldn't call the Borg done yet. If the Borg weren't done in by Future Janeway's virus and our strike hasn't killed off the Borg, they aren't going anywhere anytime soon. They will never let us play as a playable borg though because there's really not much to play as. It would make more sense as a liberated borg, but maybe something that won't enrage the lifers with their Borg characters.
The Dominion will have to be a very special case and you'd likely have to play as a Jem'hadar, no female sex, little customization (I think they're clones) and no other species available.
As for the Cardassians, they are NOT all with the True Way. What you were probably getting from the story was the New Link, which was created by Laas. He seemingly found the remaining Alpha Jem'hadar that were left and started working on a new Dominion. They are not in league with the old link in the Gamma Quadrant.
We should trust that the Devs are doing the right decisions here. I don't care if we get a Cardassian faction like the Romulans. Just as long as they make it some how into the game as the 4th power in the game."
When quote, can you make sure you're actually hitting the quote button? Otherwise it looks like you are just repeating what I said.
True on the first part but I doubt they would have gotten the idea, if those players had not come up with that really bad idea. It is not that I can not move past it but, let me try to put this into my perspective here. They remove sector blocks, they remove most of the signal contacts, they removed the exploration zones key for R&D, they removed from what I can tell the diplomacy missions, and they still have not added in tier six klingon carriers based on the tier five/four ones. The diplomacy missions of old that you did on your ship were generic but fun. This is a tactical player talking. Then they turn around and add legacy of the romulans but only in part. I guess you could say my real problem, is they got time to remove allot of stuff, that has just made sector space bland as all get out now, but they didnt have time to put in a full Romulan faction? Nvm the fact that you have no trophy room on your Romulan ships, and those ground trophies aka heads sometimes, are just freaking awesome. I am starting to ramble...
The exploration zones for R&D were removed when they removed the Genesis engine from the game, which removed Exploration altogether. This was done because they were introducing a new crafting system to the game and new R&D materials. The diplomacy first contact missions you're referring to were also bugged and were removed for the sake of quality towards the game.
The enemy contact signals being removed was part of the step of them revamping sector space, which I will talk about in a later section.
Anyways myself, and in my opinion, many players would love to trust the devs. The problem is for me no communication is a killer. The dilithium problem is pretty extreme from what I hear when it comes to upgrades, not to mention everything else that costs dilthium. So where is the comment on this?
Where is the comment on why their is not kdf tier 6 carriers based on the old tier 4/5?
Where is the comment on the concerns of lack of customization on the console end?
I dont expect them to do what the players ask but a little information can build allot of trust
Tell you the truth but what really scares me is their response to the lack of customization on the console end, will be to eradicate it on the pc end. I just do not understand why devs now and days keep removing content from games, and they submit partially done content, and say we have done a good job. To me that is just **** backwards.
As for the Borg I never said they were done, but that story they wrote was an attempt to end the Borg story, at least that is how it felt to me.
This thread is mainly supposed to be talking about what species are left that could be turned into a faction, playable or not. If you want to talk about what you highlighted here, open a new thread with your concerns.
One last comment when I watched a old trailer on the borg in sto, it reminded me how much has been removed. I get getting rid of most of sector blocks, but this is where my confusion really sets in. Why connect the Borg area to the other sector blocks? Why not have the Romulan sectors in its on sector block? Why not have the federation sections in their own sector block? Why not have the Klingon sectors in its own sector block? It made sense to an extent but now sector space is so small.... Why remove the patrol missions? From what I can now they are random find missions. No where near as extensive as they once were. The signal contacts, yea I know I am strange. I would not mind being able to hunt them down for accolades, but now they are so rare its not even funny. To any new player I am not talking about the red alerts.
So you can see why I do not exactly trust developers these days. Just a little reprieve like drastically dumping the dil costs on things, or reopening the exploration areas for r&d would go a long way.
Well, sector blocks are no longer in the game, but the Red Alert mechanic that went along with the old sector blocks remain as part of the sector space revamp. If you find sector space small, you must be on something. The sector blocks were small and took up a loading screen per section you visited. What was 29 sectors in the Beta Quadrant alone got shifted around and expanded to become 42 sectors. Sector space for the Beta Quadrant is a bit more closer to how the best guides we have laid it out. They took the Alpha Quadrant and added 8 sectors there for a total of 20, including sectors and locations we could never visit before Season 10. Granted we can't actually beam down to those places, but they are visible in sector space.
You have to remember that dilithium is primarily a f2p currency. Everything is driven by dilithium costs now because that's how they want the game to be sustained. Find me a better free to play model that doesn't free players elsewhere. If this was owned by anyone besides Perfect World, I can guarantee you the expansions we got wouldn't have been free.
Not arguing with anyone here, since I know one person's hackles will rise just for mentioning this below, but...
http://www.startrekmap.com shows maps mostly based on the "Star Trek: Star Charts - The Complete Atlas of Star Trek" written by Geoffrey Mandel. His work does conflict with other official maps, but is the most well known.
there are also other official map sources not listed there, such as the maps from "Star Trek: Stellar Cartography" by Larry Nemecek, and others.
So if the STO one is off a bit, it's no further off than all of those used by the of the official Star Trek games, be they board, rpg, tabletop, video, or other. Each source charts it all differently.
This neglects that the boarders of each of the regions mentioned changed greatly over time and weren't always the same from year to year. Not to mention this is only a 2-dimensional maps of those areas of space, and exclude the upper and lower zones (above and below in a 3-dimensional space) of those sections shown.
but as stated, no one can base anything on just the maps given, and STO could - in theory - put the Cardassians in Klingon space and the Klingons in Cardassian space, if they so wished. Of course, this would stir up the "This-is-like-this-because-this-thing-over-here-says-it-is" nuts. Unfortunately for those types, it isn't true and anything in the Star Trek 'world' can morph and change based on one little thing:
The STO map doesn't cover the whole alpha/Beta Quadrant, is just covers the white boxed area, with a few planets like Ferenginar, Iconia, and Nimbus, moved into the map zone because they wanted to use them.
Breen and Tholian space are outside the STO map because the shows never go there, and we know of only one planet in each, which were only talked about and never seen, thus meaning there is nothing for Cryptic to put on the map for those areas.
But, as you can see in the circular minimap in the upper right hand corner to the pic i just linked, Breen and Tholian space are still far larger then Romulan or Cardassian space.
I believe what I was referring to with the word 'official' is that all 'official' maps are no more 'official' than any other and that any statement made concerning them and STO is a shot in the dark and serves no purpose whatsoever. But it also serves to show that the brand as a brand makes them official maps for that brand, which have to be vetted by the company that actually owns the license to the Star Trek brand or most of that license. So by that argument, anythen of the brand would be official unless that company refused to allow it's publication and release. Now if the maps were fan-made, then they would be unofficial by definition.
Which makes me wonder why you point to a map, call it unofficial (your words @somtaawkhar), and then argue at it being official and complaining about STO's maps.
By your own argument, you should never have even mentioned anything to do with any map that is not from STO - canon or otherwise. True? You're using a doublestandard.
As for @morbideccentric... you can't be wrong when the person arguing with you turns around on his own arguments and contradicts himself each time.
as for my last post, it was for others to review and lead up to my last point, that it doesn't matter what any non-STO map shows, this game can do as it wishes with the map as long as it fits with their own storyarcs. They have the license to use Artstic License with the game.
The whole arguement of sizes and locations is rather moot.
but that's just my opinion based on what's at hand and what has been stated above.
Comments
Yeah I got to disagree there that is kinda the point of star trek to explore, and find new worlds an species, but also there has been many good an badly received races in the star trek universe from books to the TV series. Hell looking at it that is what many of the writers have done over the years putting in their own design an take of races that before their book or series aired/came out were not seen really. There are a lot of things that cryptic has said they would never do, and well good example is the connie release that they had said would most likely never get a tier six release, and so I will take a line of "we wont do that again" with a pinch of salt.
Like any new race in the star trek setting you will always have that vocal minority that hate or even love it, but than there is also the large amount of people that don't mind it an keep quite. Also I have seen enough players asking for playable Defari boffs, as well as even as a playable race choice for their captain.
Take your pick and then throw in a few dozen more. You have movies, novels, games, books, shows, animations, 1-shots, pilots, etc... and a bunch of artist renderings and concept works - all of which can or could be used to develop new Factions, whether from Factions mentioned in the past or from something STO comes up with on their own.
Only problem? Will they flesh it out enough to be a coveted addition to the game? Or will it just be the skeleton of a possibility, like much of the expansions have been?
Who knows?
Tribble Factions Wins!
So... considered any of the things from the books? Like the shows, many included things never mentioned before or since.
Expand upon this.
In general I'd agree, though there are exceptions, like the Children of Tamar from "Darmok". One off aliens, yet well remembered.
Did wonder, but didn't go to look. Thanks for the heads-up!
Simple: the queues are repeatable = thousands. heh. :P
And yeah, there have been many one-off aliens... Like EVERY ALIEN IN STAR TREK! They're designed that way. Only the Bajorns and Vulcans as well as the Cardassians and a couple of others (NOT the Klingons) were originally developed as a major part of the storyline when they were created. Then you had the critical character aliens, such as those on DS9 and Spock, etc. Odo's race didn't become a heavy Faction until a couple of seasons into DS9. And Klingons eventually were worked into the story later, but didn't start that way. Ferengi popped up from time to time.
What else?
You can take any of the aliens and develop them into a faction. Just depends on the writter's perspective. Now - how many 'Human' or homosapien alien offshoots/colonies have there been in Star Trek? Just to give a concept, but you can do the same thing with any of the alien species. Klingons might have a subspecies group (if they don't already). How would they deal in Star Trek? Perhaps the virus adapted a group of them into something else. Perhaps, like the Romulans/Remen, a group of Klingon evolved to a completely different environment.... and so on and so forth.
Ideas are easy.
Getting them 'fully' fleshed out and executed is what's hard.
My character Tsin'xing
Dominion ?
Is too big to be a mini faction. Any twists and story turning to make them fit in and join the others would be lore breaking as hell. They should be thier own playable faction, or not playable at all.
Cardassian ?
Seems a like a very small group as they are now, could see them joining either KDF or Fed. But too small to work as thier own faction.
True Borg faction/Borg Collective ?
No sorry. That won't play storywise, aswell as they don't work well with the other faction. They should remain as an enemy faction only.
Liberated Borg faction/Borg Cooperative ?
eeeeeeeeeh... maybe? Could see them work as both thier own faction and as individuals joining the current player factions (former drones wanting to return home). Good amount of Borg ships they could fly, and maybe also give them access to a unique assimilated looking ship skins(diffrent from the borg set) when flying the ships of the faction they join.
Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
Now... what if the primary ones everyone usually mentions weren't the ones you were looking at?
maybe the Grays make an appearance, or it turns out that the Caitans are really a satellite group from another galaxy sent to evaluate our galaxy for 'Acquisition' and 'Repurposing'. After all, unlike Borg assimulation, what worse than being a 'Raw Material' for something so far above us as to seem godlike in their sciences?
o.O
Still... what has your last response to do with the question at hand: "What Species is left that can be a faction" or my reasoning?
There- you've Gorn and done it again.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
The dominion would make more sense as their own faction, which could show was happened within the gamma quad an the Dominion when Odo returned to the Great link. This would I think be the faction that would be the most desired, and with the greated degree of being well received by the fan-base and player-base if it were to be implemented.
Now for the Cardassians i think over having them be another mini-faction, it might be better to have them ally with the romulans, as they did have quite close diplomatic ties prior to the dominion war, which after both groups had their homeworlds ruined could be rekindled. That would buff the population of the romulan faction, while also giving them access to cardassian ships that could balance out their ship rooster. Also it would still lead into them choosing to ally with either the fed or klingon.
With the true borg or borg collective I do agree they should not be made as a faction, though i do think they are due a overhaul to make them more impressive, since they do still adapt an so could come back after assimilating some left over hulks from recent wars (like vaadwaur ships, Herald ships, and such).
Now liberated or cooperative borg is a bit different as I could see these being part of a delta quad faction as I even suggested, since they are still quite small in population numbers, but also are in abt of need of protection both from the borg seeking to re-assimilate them an other races that hold grudges against them when they were drones.
As for Cardassians, don't recall those ever being released as a player character, but I'd have to look again. If they have, then that's probably as far as the Faction will go in STO. But if they haven't....
Of course, asking for Cardassians or Dominion as a player race is along the lines of asking for a Vaadwar and some other Delta groups and would take some real serious tinkering of the storylines to make it believable. *shrug*
As for NEW POSSIBLE Factions? Those possibilities are endless.
I don't know if you were paying attention or not, but according to canon, the Dominion no longer includes the Breen or the Cardassians.
The Dominion screwed the Cardassians over in the final days of the war. The only reason why the Breen joined the war is because the Dominion gave them Cardassian territory in exchange for their help in the war. When The Cardassians started rebelling, the Dominon bombed Cardassia, which would be another point in them not being with the Dominion.
The Breen no longer are allies of the Dominion primarily because the Dominion was asked to retreat to the Gamma Quadrant as part of the treaty. The Breen also lost any territory that was originally given to them as it reverted back to the Cardassian Union's control under the treaty.
Actually, according to the lore on the Cardassian Galor in the lock box, they were a forgotten surplus of vessels that were supposed to have went to the Federation and the Klingons in order to aid them against the Dominion by Legate Damar.
They could easily retcon this lore, but a Cardassian faction needs to have at least the Cardassian vessels. Ideas for what they could get should be in another thread.
The only thing is that unless they are willing to make a brand new storyline separate from what's going on, it wouldn't make sense for where the Dominion come into the story. When they made the Romulan Republic, they received every episode that was considered cross faction. However, in the case of the Dominion, the only parts of the existing storyling they make sense to be in is the 2800 series and maybe Midnight. A major retcon to the story would have to be done for them or else starting them late level.
As for the Borg, the collective won't work as the nature of the collective means that playable characters there are impossible.
We could have a liberated borg faction, but it would have to be something that doesn't alienate lifers that can already make a liberated Human, Klingon or Romulan borg. They could actually explore the backgound of how the cooperative grew to be as big as they are, maybe include that the unimatrix zero individuals found their way to the Borg who became the cooperative. We know that Hugh joined the Cooperative as well, seeing as he is a liberated borg drone. Like the Dominion, there would be not so much story that would make sense with them before the Delta Quadrant arc so a new arc would have to take place.
If I remember right, the poll specifically said for a choice "Playable Romulan." It didn't really specifiy whether or not it would be a playable faction akin to the Klingon or Federation or if it would be the Romulan Star Empire.
They made the decision not to let people play as the Romulan Star Empire as the current storyline dictated that the Empire was nothing more now than an Tal Shair led, Iconian puppet. You might not like the Romulan Republic and the decisions the devs make, but it's what is in the game and it's time to move past it.
I wouldn't call the Borg done yet. If the Borg weren't done in by Future Janeway's virus and our strike hasn't killed off the Borg, they aren't going anywhere anytime soon. They will never let us play as a playable borg though because there's really not much to play as. It would make more sense as a liberated borg, but maybe something that won't enrage the lifers with their Borg characters.
The Dominion will have to be a very special case and you'd likely have to play as a Jem'hadar, no female sex, little customization (I think they're clones) and no other species available.
As for the Cardassians, they are NOT all with the True Way. What you were probably getting from the story was the New Link, which was created by Laas. He seemingly found the remaining Alpha Jem'hadar that were left and started working on a new Dominion. They are not in league with the old link in the Gamma Quadrant.
We should trust that the Devs are doing the right decisions here. I don't care if we get a Cardassian faction like the Romulans. Just as long as they make it some how into the game as the 4th power in the game.
I don't think that it would take 3 expansions worth of content to make enough for a Delta Quadrant faction. However the problem we face is that none of the groups in the Delta Quadrant were aligned before the Federation-Klingon-Romulan alliance entered the picture.
I think if there are any factions in the Delta Quadrant that they could make playable, it would robably be a Borg Cooperative faction. When you think about it, they already have 2 major enemies in that area: The Borg Collective who will stop at nothing to reassimilate them and the Octanti, who despise all the Borg. I'm not sure what we'd do exactly, but maybe they would be able to add the Cooperative homeworld as the major base of operations. Maybe the major missions could show the growth of the power by them adding the Unimatrix Zero borg and Hugh's splinter group to the mix.
All the cross faction missions though won't work really with the storyline until around the point of the Delta Quadrant storyline opening.
Everyone saw the release of LoR, the Romulan faction as a sign that by the end of the year, the Cardassian faction would be next, followed by a dozen more for just about every race in the 4 quadrants, when the harsh reality is that MMO's rarely add new factions to any game that has them. I knew from the get go that the Romulan Republic would likely be the only release of it's kind faction wise, because anything else is not feasible.
They did the seperation of missions and space with the first part of the TOS storyline.
or what @lucianazeta said. Doesn't dismiss the possibilities,though.
They made the decision not to let people play as the Romulan Star Empire as the current storyline dictated that the Empire was nothing more now than an Tal Shair led, Iconian puppet. You might not like the Romulan Republic and the decisions the devs make, but it's what is in the game and it's time to move past it.
I wouldn't call the Borg done yet. If the Borg weren't done in by Future Janeway's virus and our strike hasn't killed off the Borg, they aren't going anywhere anytime soon. They will never let us play as a playable borg though because there's really not much to play as. It would make more sense as a liberated borg, but maybe something that won't enrage the lifers with their Borg characters.
The Dominion will have to be a very special case and you'd likely have to play as a Jem'hadar, no female sex, little customization (I think they're clones) and no other species available.
As for the Cardassians, they are NOT all with the True Way. What you were probably getting from the story was the New Link, which was created by Laas. He seemingly found the remaining Alpha Jem'hadar that were left and started working on a new Dominion. They are not in league with the old link in the Gamma Quadrant.
We should trust that the Devs are doing the right decisions here. I don't care if we get a Cardassian faction like the Romulans. Just as long as they make it some how into the game as the 4th power in the game."
True on the first part but I doubt they would have gotten the idea, if those players had not come up with that really bad idea. It is not that I can not move past it but, let me try to put this into my perspective here. They remove sector blocks, they remove most of the signal contacts, they removed the exploration zones key for R&D, they removed from what I can tell the diplomacy missions, and they still have not added in tier six klingon carriers based on the tier five/four ones. The diplomacy missions of old that you did on your ship were generic but fun. This is a tactical player talking. Then they turn around and add legacy of the romulans but only in part. I guess you could say my real problem, is they got time to remove allot of stuff, that has just made sector space bland as all get out now, but they didnt have time to put in a full Romulan faction? Nvm the fact that you have no trophy room on your Romulan ships, and those ground trophies aka heads sometimes, are just freaking awesome. I am starting to ramble...
Anyways myself, and in my opinion, many players would love to trust the devs. The problem is for me no communication is a killer. The dilithium problem is pretty extreme from what I hear when it comes to upgrades, not to mention everything else that costs dilthium. So where is the comment on this?
Where is the comment on why their is not kdf tier 6 carriers based on the old tier 4/5?
Where is the comment on the concerns of lack of customization on the console end?
I dont expect them to do what the players ask but a little information can build allot of trust
Tell you the truth but what really scares me is their response to the lack of customization on the console end, will be to eradicate it on the pc end. I just do not understand why devs now and days keep removing content from games, and they submit partially done content, and say we have done a good job. To me that is just TRIBBLE backwards.
As for the Borg I never said they were done, but that story they wrote was an attempt to end the Borg story, at least that is how it felt to me.
One last comment when I watched a old trailer on the borg in sto, it reminded me how much has been removed. I get getting rid of most of sector blocks, but this is where my confusion really sets in. Why connect the Borg area to the other sector blocks? Why not have the Romulan sectors in its on sector block? Why not have the federation sections in their own sector block? Why not have the Klingon sectors in its own sector block? It made sense to an extent but now sector space is so small.... Why remove the patrol missions? From what I can now they are random find missions. No where near as extensive as they once were. The signal contacts, yea I know I am strange. I would not mind being able to hunt them down for accolades, but now they are so rare its not even funny. To any new player I am not talking about the red alerts.
So you can see why I do not exactly trust developers these days. Just a little reprieve like drastically dumping the dil costs on things, or reopening the exploration areas for r&d would go a long way.
Actually I have been wondering about that myself. I have been using the quote button and I have no idea why it has not been working the majority of the time for me.
Interesting, the STO map is quite different:
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/f/fe/STO_galaxy_map.png/revision/latest?cb=20150518212008&path-prefix=en
Memory Alpha also states the Cardassian Union as being one of the 4 great powers in the Alpha Quadrant.
I said it before and I'll say it again: MMO's rarely add new factions, it's a TRIBBLE ton of work and any factions created years into the game will never have the population of what came before.
Contrary to what many people deluded themselves into thinking, the Romulan Republic wasn't followed up by a Cardassian or Borg faction release, it took them over three years for the first new 'faction' to be released, TOS, and it's not even a real faction, more like a TOS era Fed alternative tutorial and some flashy effect differences from present day Fed characters.
Stop trying to convince yourselves that Cryptic is just waiting for the right moment to release a faction for every race from Cardassian to Borg to Ocampa, it's not going to happen.
When quote, can you make sure you're actually hitting the quote button? Otherwise it looks like you are just repeating what I said.
The exploration zones for R&D were removed when they removed the Genesis engine from the game, which removed Exploration altogether. This was done because they were introducing a new crafting system to the game and new R&D materials. The diplomacy first contact missions you're referring to were also bugged and were removed for the sake of quality towards the game.
The enemy contact signals being removed was part of the step of them revamping sector space, which I will talk about in a later section.
This thread is mainly supposed to be talking about what species are left that could be turned into a faction, playable or not. If you want to talk about what you highlighted here, open a new thread with your concerns.
Well, sector blocks are no longer in the game, but the Red Alert mechanic that went along with the old sector blocks remain as part of the sector space revamp. If you find sector space small, you must be on something. The sector blocks were small and took up a loading screen per section you visited. What was 29 sectors in the Beta Quadrant alone got shifted around and expanded to become 42 sectors. Sector space for the Beta Quadrant is a bit more closer to how the best guides we have laid it out. They took the Alpha Quadrant and added 8 sectors there for a total of 20, including sectors and locations we could never visit before Season 10. Granted we can't actually beam down to those places, but they are visible in sector space.
You have to remember that dilithium is primarily a f2p currency. Everything is driven by dilithium costs now because that's how they want the game to be sustained. Find me a better free to play model that doesn't free players elsewhere. If this was owned by anyone besides Perfect World, I can guarantee you the expansions we got wouldn't have been free.
http://www.startrekmap.com shows maps mostly based on the "Star Trek: Star Charts - The Complete Atlas of Star Trek" written by Geoffrey Mandel. His work does conflict with other official maps, but is the most well known.
there are also other official map sources not listed there, such as the maps from "Star Trek: Stellar Cartography" by Larry Nemecek, and others.
So if the STO one is off a bit, it's no further off than all of those used by the of the official Star Trek games, be they board, rpg, tabletop, video, or other. Each source charts it all differently.
This neglects that the boarders of each of the regions mentioned changed greatly over time and weren't always the same from year to year. Not to mention this is only a 2-dimensional maps of those areas of space, and exclude the upper and lower zones (above and below in a 3-dimensional space) of those sections shown.
but as stated, no one can base anything on just the maps given, and STO could - in theory - put the Cardassians in Klingon space and the Klingons in Cardassian space, if they so wished. Of course, this would stir up the "This-is-like-this-because-this-thing-over-here-says-it-is" nuts. Unfortunately for those types, it isn't true and anything in the Star Trek 'world' can morph and change based on one little thing:
Artistic License.
I stand corrected.
Which makes me wonder why you point to a map, call it unofficial (your words @somtaawkhar), and then argue at it being official and complaining about STO's maps.
By your own argument, you should never have even mentioned anything to do with any map that is not from STO - canon or otherwise. True? You're using a doublestandard.
As for @morbideccentric... you can't be wrong when the person arguing with you turns around on his own arguments and contradicts himself each time.
as for my last post, it was for others to review and lead up to my last point, that it doesn't matter what any non-STO map shows, this game can do as it wishes with the map as long as it fits with their own storyarcs. They have the license to use Artstic License with the game.
The whole arguement of sizes and locations is rather moot.
but that's just my opinion based on what's at hand and what has been stated above.