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The Grey Market of STO

So, watching the T6 Connie prices going up instead of coming down (or so it seems by just watching in ESD chat, which admittedly isn't very conclusive), I start to wonder.

Why is there a 750 million EC cap on the Exchange? This basically forces (not just allows, but forces) the existence of a grey market where the sellers don't face clearly visible price pressure from other sellers. Thus the cap benefits the elite trader players at the cost of the common player base.

Now I understand, there is a type of hard core player who loves to deal in trading- some may never even play a single mission unless they have to in order to get to the trading area/exchange. I've even done of bit of that myself in EVE online. Of course there, it was an open market without a cap- and the Grey Market was the home of scammers. Here, it's where the market will take things when they are worth more than the cap.

So it must be a desired outcome. It keeps the hardcore traders who love this sort of thing in their seats playing, and that's perhaps worth more to the Designers than the common player base benefiting from the price pressures of open bidding from the exchange?

Or am I missing the point completely (I won't be surprise or insulted if that's the case)?

Oh and just to be upfront- I won my Connie in the R&D Lottery so this is really just curiosity asking the question.
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Comments

  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,689 Arc User
    where the sellers don't face clearly visible price pressure from other sellers.

    I haven't used them myself (I'm not in the market for a Connie) but I don't see the trade channels as a grey market since the origin and quality of the goods is not suspect and trading is a supported feature of the game. Gold farmers are the black market, trading channels are white market.

    Price pressure does exist there. Once you have an invite to the channels, all of the people holding a Connie or Annorax or whatever are competing for your 750+ million EC. If one says 950 million, someone else can jump in for 940 million to get the sale.

  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    The problem is you can't have more than 1 Billion EC on your character. If they had put the Exchange limit to 1 Billion, it would likely have led to people losing EC made in a transaction, because they already had some EC on their account.

    They could raise the EC Cap, too, I suppose. But I would expect this to enable more inflation.


    The grey market ultimately isn't all that gray. It's just not on the Exchange. But Player-to-Player trade has been in the game from the start. And it's reasonably "safe", too.
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  • nightkennightken Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    if the cap get any highere there is a rather large chance people will start having a problem with charging the actual ec cap then losing money cause they actually had ec already... then people would still charge cap+ whatever cause sto runs on greed for the sheer irony of it. and that not covering the crying of cryptic stealing their ec cause the forgot about the ec cap.

    if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
  • umformtechnik#9538 umformtechnik Member Posts: 88 Arc User
    Or am I missing the point completely (I won't be surprise or insulted if that's the case)?

    yes you are missing the point completely. consider this: if the ship was on the exchange for a set price, then anyone with half a brain would realize all they had to do was buy/sell master keys or r&D packs until they had enough EC to buy the ship on the exchange. but cryptic wants people to gamble, not buy things for set prices. so by having an exchange cap, it means super rare things never show up on the exchange. and since your common player isn't a member of the elite trading channels, they think their only way to get these ships is to keep buying keys or packs until they get it. so an exchange cap actually encourages gambling and makes cryptic more money. get it now?
  • phenomenaut01phenomenaut01 Member Posts: 714 Arc User
    The EC cap doesn't make a lot of sense in a game where you can have multiple accounts really. If you're like me, you just end up shifting funds around as needed. If it was a 1 Billion EC per account (which would ludicrous) then I could see it as an effective way of controlling inflation, but as it is, it's useless.

    The problem is that the game lacks sufficient EC sinks.

    On topic...

    The grey market as an "elite" thing is somewhat applicable. I only recently found out about the trade channel myself, after playing since beta. I don't know why I didn't think that it existed, but if I hadn't randomly seen someone talking about it in zone chat I don't think I would have known where to look.
  • gaevsmangaevsman Member Posts: 3,190 Arc User
    Or am I missing the point completely (I won't be surprise or insulted if that's the case)?

    yes you are missing the point completely. consider this: if the ship was on the exchange for a set price, then anyone with half a brain would realize all they had to do was buy/sell master keys or r&D packs until they had enough EC to buy the ship on the exchange. but cryptic wants people to gamble, not buy things for set prices. so by having an exchange cap, it means super rare things never show up on the exchange. and since your common player isn't a member of the elite trading channels, they think their only way to get these ships is to keep buying keys or packs until they get it. so an exchange cap actually encourages gambling and makes cryptic more money. get it now?

    Wrong, Cryptic does not care, the limit in the Exchange is a safeward to avoid hitting the cap in your ec. They dont mind if you sell your ship, use it or discard it, its irrelevant, because people still buy keys and ships with real money and thats what as a corporation, they want, and is quite valid.

    The only reason people sell in the trade channel is simple: greed. Honestly, if i had that ship, i'll sell it in the Exchange, cause i dont care for it, and dont suffer from greed, so 750 million is quite enough for me, even less, but i want to buy some other ships, and unlike me, people selling them will want as much as they can ask for.
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  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    where the sellers don't face clearly visible price pressure from other sellers.

    I haven't used them myself (I'm not in the market for a Connie) but I don't see the trade channels as a grey market since the origin and quality of the goods is not suspect and trading is a supported feature of the game.

    I disagree, the trade channels aren't a standard feature and one needs an invite. Nor does it allow the 'posting' of prices- just immediate reaction to what is being offered so the effective use of the market is limited to those able and willing to spend extended time there.
  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    The problem is you can't have more than 1 Billion EC on your character.

    Ah, did not know that. That explains much.

    It would also seem to force barter more than purchase at the extrems, hence why I see WTS with the asking price being in Keys and the like.

    Sure sign of a broken economy btw. And at this point, I doubt there's anything the designers can do to fix it.
  • gaevsmangaevsman Member Posts: 3,190 Arc User
    The problem is you can't have more than 1 Billion EC on your character.

    Ah, did not know that. That explains much.

    It would also seem to force barter more than purchase at the extrems, hence why I see WTS with the asking price being in Keys and the like.

    Sure sign of a broken economy btw. And at this point, I doubt there's anything the designers can do to fix it.

    Yup, its operated by users, and users will ask for as much as they can.. sad but true, as i said, if i had one, i'll happily put it on the Exchange.. but i dont :neutral:
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  • hartzillahartzilla Member Posts: 1,177 Arc User
    gaevsman wrote: »
    Or am I missing the point completely (I won't be surprise or insulted if that's the case)?

    yes you are missing the point completely. consider this: if the ship was on the exchange for a set price, then anyone with half a brain would realize all they had to do was buy/sell master keys or r&D packs until they had enough EC to buy the ship on the exchange. but cryptic wants people to gamble, not buy things for set prices. so by having an exchange cap, it means super rare things never show up on the exchange. and since your common player isn't a member of the elite trading channels, they think their only way to get these ships is to keep buying keys or packs until they get it. so an exchange cap actually encourages gambling and makes cryptic more money. get it now?

    Wrong, Cryptic does not care, the limit in the Exchange is a safeward to avoid hitting the cap in your ec. They dont mind if you sell your ship, use it or discard it, its irrelevant, because people still buy keys and ships with real money and thats what as a corporation, they want, and is quite valid.

    The only reason people sell in the trade channel is simple: greed. Honestly, if i had that ship, i'll sell it in the Exchange, cause i dont care for it, and dont suffer from greed, so 750 million is quite enough for me, even less, but i want to buy some other ships, and unlike me, people selling them will want as much as they can ask for.

    True there isn't really anything in the game that would require you to get massive amounts of EC, so its mostly useless.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,689 Arc User
    where the sellers don't face clearly visible price pressure from other sellers.

    I haven't used them myself (I'm not in the market for a Connie) but I don't see the trade channels as a grey market since the origin and quality of the goods is not suspect and trading is a supported feature of the game.

    I disagree, the trade channels aren't a standard feature and one needs an invite. Nor does it allow the 'posting' of prices- just immediate reaction to what is being offered so the effective use of the market is limited to those able and willing to spend extended time there.

    Trading is a standard feature, chat channels are are standard feature. Combining the two is common for many MMOs. That and the fact that doing so does not violate the EULA / TOS makes it white market to me.
    so the effective use of the market is limited to those able and willing to spend extended time there.

    Not offering instant gratification does not make it grey market.
  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    where the sellers don't face clearly visible price pressure from other sellers.

    I haven't used them myself (I'm not in the market for a Connie) but I don't see the trade channels as a grey market since the origin and quality of the goods is not suspect and trading is a supported feature of the game.

    I disagree, the trade channels aren't a standard feature and one needs an invite. Nor does it allow the 'posting' of prices- just immediate reaction to what is being offered so the effective use of the market is limited to those able and willing to spend extended time there.

    Trading is a standard feature, chat channels are are standard feature. Combining the two is common for many MMOs. That and the fact that doing so does not violate the EULA / TOS makes it white market to me.

    Without clear visibility to all interested parties, it's grey.

    We're not going to agree on this. The differences between those trade channels and the Exchange is just too stark.

    And mind, I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying that it's a result of how STO was designed and that it has an impact.
  • sunfranckssunfrancks Member Posts: 3,925 Arc User
    Cryptic want these items to be sold via scam sites and the grey market. It is the only logical reason for why they create these items, but don't disable the trading of them anywhere but the exchange...
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  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,689 Arc User
    Yes, we'll agree to disagree on that point.

    At least it's not hidden pricing, since if you do join and stay in the channel you can watch listings over time. It requires more work than watching the exchange, but you need to watch the exchange over time too if you want the best price -- the Tarantula I got from the exchange last week bounced up and down from 120 - 200+ million EC over a few days.
  • arionisaarionisa Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    The trading channel isn't hard to find, or find out about. I started just before DR and before I had my very first toon to level 20, and before I had ever come to these forums, I knew about the trading channel. It's not exactly a secret. Unlike fight club, the first rule of trading channel is that everybody talks about trading channel You want to get into a trading channel, hang out at ESD or Qo'nos and ask in zone chat. It likely wont take long to wrangle an invite. Heck, I got an offer to join it just asking in zone chat where I could buy epic weapons.

    As far as being a "grey market", already been said. Cryptic designed the game to have private chat channels, Cryptic designed the game to have player-player trades, and the trading channels are utilizing functions that Cryptic put into the game.

    The exchange is kinda like a Government (ie Cryptic) run consignment shop, with a limit on the maximum size transaction they will handle. The trade channel is the coffee shop next door where people go to buy/sell items that are above the consignment shops maximum transaction limit. The government provides a total free market economy. Sellers can ask any amount they so desire for anything they want to sell and buyers can pay however high an amount they are willing to pay (and capable of, of course). Nothing illegal, immoral, wrong, or even grey about it.

    The only limits to the free market economy is that no one character can have more than 1B EC. Even that does not actually put a limit on the economy as a seller could easily ask for 1B EC, plus X number of master keys or other commodity.

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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    The problem is you can't have more than 1 Billion EC on your character. If they had put the Exchange limit to 1 Billion, it would likely have led to people losing EC made in a transaction, because they already had some EC on their account.

    They could raise the EC Cap, too, I suppose. But I would expect this to enable more inflation.
    How is that any different from charging 1 billion in trade?

    And players with the 10m cap are presumably still allowed to sell items for 10m. Or 750m for that matter. Excuses, excuses.

    One might say if you sell something without making sure you have room for the income, you deserve to lose the money. On the other hand, the game could simply forbid players from selling items if they don't have room for the sale price, just like it forbids them from buying if they don't have room for the item.

    And yes, they absolutely should raise the EC cap, too. The very existence of items whose value exceeds the cap proves it necessary. The cap does not reduce inflation, it just causes the trade to shift to a less limited currency...in STO that's keys.
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  • fruitvendor12fruitvendor12 Member Posts: 615 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    The grey market as an "elite" thing is somewhat applicable. I only recently found out about the trade channel myself, after playing since beta.
    We're talking about open channels. There are thousands of them. It doesn't take a lot of effort to decide what you want then ask around or do some basic searches. It's up to you to decide your pain points then ask around.

    There's nothing grey or elitist about open channels.

    When I opened the ship the announcement went system wide. I was immediately PM'd by a dozen plus people who offered to buy it. You can do that too.

    The real concern is that the R&D pack has essentially destroyed the lobi market, probably for a solid year.

    Post edited by fruitvendor12 on
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  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    arionisa wrote: »
    The trading channel isn't hard to find, or find out about.

    Understand something here, I don't care. I don't want to buy anything there, so they don't matter to me.

    All that matters is that it's un-posted transactions where the pricing is set by a subgroup of the player base and thus is higher than it would be normally. That's its a required evil due to STO's design justifies it- but doesn't make it something I want to take part in.
  • fruitvendor12fruitvendor12 Member Posts: 615 Arc User
    The only reason thetradingchannel is kept set to 'private' is because it makes it possible to throw people out of it who cant act right.
    Exactly. All one has to do is ask around, ask for an invite, and behave. The channel would still exist even if the caps were in the trillions. Supply and demand isn't defined by the technology.

  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    Couldnt Cryptic just create a subtype of currency that gives an inventory token that lumps anything over 1 billion EC, as an overflow? They could name it, the "quatloo".
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    where the sellers don't face clearly visible price pressure from other sellers.
    I haven't used them myself (I'm not in the market for a Connie) but I don't see the trade channels as a grey market since the origin and quality of the goods is not suspect and trading is a supported feature of the game.
    I disagree, the trade channels aren't a standard feature and one needs an invite. Nor does it allow the 'posting' of prices- just immediate reaction to what is being offered so the effective use of the market is limited to those able and willing to spend extended time there.
    Also at least one of the trade channels can't be left unless you log in to Champions.... because it's actually a trade channel for CO and not STO.... but it gets used for both.
    Couldnt Cryptic just create a subtype of currency that gives an inventory token that lumps anything over 1 billion EC, as an overflow? They could name it, the "quatloo".
    Doing so automatically would make the EC cap a bit pointless. For non-automatic you can buy stacks of master keys.
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  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    null
    To be honest, I was saying it as a half-joke, knowing that it wouldnt make sense for Cryptic to deafeat thier own purposes.

    That and to say "quatloo"

    Quatloo!!! Quatloo!!!
  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    Doing so automatically would make the EC cap a bit pointless. For non-automatic you can buy stacks of master keys.

    The EC cap is already pointless as people can and do buy master keys (and use alts) to store their wealth. It's only there to justify the Exchange Cap, and that's only there to split the market into public and grey.

    Doing so does slow inflation a bit by limiting overpriced items to the extreme cases, and is the designers only tool for doing so.
  • cidjackcidjack Member Posts: 2,017 Arc User
    I think the OP is right, I am not selling my connies for the exchange price of 750 mil. Raise that cap I want to charge 2 billion.
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  • berginsbergins Member Posts: 3,453 Arc User
    For those opposed to the term "Grey Market" being used here, I think you should go look it up.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_market

    It's a parallel market offering goods LEGALLY that are not yet available or are over priced in the general market. Considering the number of keys you need to sell to get the EC to buy a 900 mil EC ship isn't a sufficient amount of keys to garuntee winning a ship, trade channels definitely fit the latter requirement.
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  • drakethewhitedrakethewhite Member Posts: 1,240 Arc User
    cidjack wrote: »
    I think the OP is right, I am not selling my connies for the exchange price of 750 mil. Raise that cap I want to charge 2 billion.

    You already can, on the Grey Market.

    Seems above the going price for now. But I'm at the point where I expect it to rise, not fall unless they run the promotion again in the future.

    The exchange cap is only there to prevent/slow inflation for common and slightly uncommon items not worth the extra effort to sell on the Grey. It allows anything rare enough to exceeds that do whatever the player subgroup who play the Grey Market moves it to do.
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