It's a parallel market offering goods LEGALLY that are not yet available or are over priced in the general market. Considering the number of keys you need to sell to get the EC to buy a 900 mil EC ship isn't a sufficient amount of keys to garuntee winning a ship, trade channels definitely fit the latter requirement.
The problem is you can't have more than 1 Billion EC on your character.
Ah, did not know that. That explains much.
It would also seem to force barter more than purchase at the extrems, hence why I see WTS with the asking price being in Keys and the like.
Sure sign of a broken economy btw. And at this point, I doubt there's anything the designers can do to fix it.
They could fix all the bank/exchange problems just by increasing the bank cap and exchange cap.
They could also add ec sinks.
Just raising the cap will have little but negative effect, causing inflation across the board for the Exchange Market which in turn will inflate the Grey Market as it becomes much easier to build higher levels of wealth. That's the simple and unbreakable rule of adding more currency to a market.
Further, I imagine Cryptic likes the current effect, the cap means high wealth players must shift their wealth to goods- i.e. Keys and high value reward packs. That means the company makes more money on these players as someone has to buy those Keys and thus the high value reward packs.
As for EC sinks... at this point in the history of the game will meet with player outrage for the most part. They are also *very* difficult on new or casual players if they were significant enough to affect the currency value. It would require a scaling sink that bites more and more as a player's wealth rises (in effect a progressive tax for being successful in the game).
That will cause players will avoid it by seeking tax shelters meaning that you'd have to tax all sources of in-game wealth- i.e. stored Keys, ships, etc. That in turn would require players either losing or at least losing access to things they've already earned if they haven't paid the tax. I can't imagine that going over well.
Things like this aren't easily solved. EVE Online manages by people actually losing their ships and game as part of game play- and then they have to be replaced. And even it still sees inflation (but on the whole, it works).
The problem is you can't have more than 1 Billion EC on your character.
Ah, did not know that. That explains much.
It would also seem to force barter more than purchase at the extrems, hence why I see WTS with the asking price being in Keys and the like.
Sure sign of a broken economy btw. And at this point, I doubt there's anything the designers can do to fix it.
They could fix all the bank/exchange problems just by increasing the bank cap and exchange cap.
They could also add ec sinks.
Just raising the cap will have little but negative effect, causing inflation across the board for the Exchange Market which in turn will inflate the Grey Market as it becomes much easier to build higher levels of wealth. That's the simple and unbreakable rule of adding more currency to a market.
The cap has no effect on inflation. The same nonsense was spouted before the exchange cap increase.
And calling player trades a "grey market" is an insult.
Further, I imagine Cryptic likes the current effect, the cap means high wealth players must shift their wealth to goods- i.e. Keys and high value reward packs. That means the company makes more money on these players as someone has to buy those Keys and thus the high value reward packs.
That's rubbish. Keys only have value because people use them. Their value and demand is driven by people using them, not storing them.
As for EC sinks... at this point in the history of the game will meet with player outrage for the most part. They are also *very* difficult on new or casual players if they were significant enough to affect the currency value. It would require a scaling sink that bites more and more as a player's wealth rises (in effect a progressive tax for being successful in the game).
This is an MMO. Everything meets with player outrage. Also, you clearly have no idea what a currency sink is.
That will cause players will avoid it by seeking tax shelters meaning that you'd have to tax all sources of in-game wealth- i.e. stored Keys, ships, etc. That in turn would require players either losing or at least losing access to things they've already earned if they haven't paid the tax. I can't imagine that going over well.
That's not what a currency sink is.
A currency sink is something to buy that removes the currency from the game economy (ie, from a vendor, not another player). Unfortunately, other than commodities for fleet project there is basically nothing particularly high-value that one can actually buy with EC.
A currency sink is something to buy that removes the currency from the game economy (ie, from a vendor, not another player). Unfortunately, other than commodities for fleet project there is basically nothing particularly high-value that one can actually buy with EC.
You (and others) are unaware it seems how games use currency sinks and what form they take. LotRO to use one example uses three minor ones- they take a 10% cut of anything sold on their auction house (a sales tax, an approach shared by EVE Online), require gold (their currency) to keep access to your game housing (a property tax), and force a repair bill for wear and tear on your equipment (in practical terms, a usage tax).
All these are 'currency sinks' as the only requirement for that label is that currency is removed from the in-game market. Like the objectors to the term 'grey market', there are a lot of people who just won't check into something before trying to 'correct' others. It would be funny if it's wasn't sad.
Even the items you outright purchase for use (such as hypos and shield batteries) are effectively a usage tax just like the Gear wear and tear cost. To play the game and use all the available abilities- you are required to fork over part of your income although in STO this is insignificant (and the items are seldom even needed or used, at least in my case).
High end items, such as the Holo-officers in the replicator are slightly more effective (with some costing $1) but in the end- insignificant to the task as they are once and done or unneeded. One could waste development time on these all one wished, but the end effect would be unnoticeable. However in the end, these too are a 'usage tax', for it's something you've paid for with in game currency to use. Remember this is a virtual space, and all costs are in practical terms created and enforce by the design as "taxes".
Game economies are very complex subjects with very few MMOs having effective and working ones. EVE Online is the only example I have experience with, but it uses extreme methods of removing not just currency but actual wealth (i.e. character items) from the game. And it too suffers inflation although at a much more acceptable rate.
Those EC taxes also hurt the little guys the most. Space rich will just increase the ship prices +11%, space poor will be driven from their homes for failing to pay space tax.
Do you really want more space homeless?! Think of the space children!
The problem with these ec-deletion schemes (which often masquerade as 'taxes') is that they aren't really particularly moral. There's no good reason to simply delete someone's hard-earned ec. It doesnt cost ec to 'run the exchange' for example. It doesnt pay for anything so it isnt a 'tax.'
You've got to remember that for sto's faults, its really the best game of its kind available. Almost all the games that compete with it are bad.
You should never ape bad things. Never.
The 'good' reason is to keep in-game inflation in check such that new and casual players don't find themselves with a huge uphill battle in front of them. The designers of these systems would quote "The needs of the many...".
Do I agree with this line of reasoning? Only sort of. Few games do enough to matter, and none make it progressive enough to really control inflation. So it seems to be a solution that doesn't really work for the most part.
LOTRO also had a posting fee for putting stuff on the Exchange that varied on how long you wanted it there. The Exchange allowed you to post items with a fixed price OR you can post with a starting bid price and let it go from there.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Those EC taxes also hurt the little guys the most. Space rich will just increase the ship prices +11%, space poor will be driven from their homes for failing to pay space tax.
Do you really want more space homeless?! Think of the space children!
That's the tension in the game design, the 'taxes' can't be enough to hurt new or casual players or you loss the player based needed for the game.
That's why a progressive solution would be better, charge the low end transactions (let's use 100K as an example) either no or a very small tax- say 1%. And hit the 1 Billion Credit transaction with a 50% tax of 500 million.
The thing is, this will just drive things away from the public market (the exchange) to the Grey Market (the Trade channels). So you'd have to charge a 'transfer fee' on every player-to-player trade in the game. The problem there is coming up with a tax schedule for the trade.
Would this work? I doubt it, I don't now of any game that does it so there's likely a good reason why. For one, I bet the players would revolt.
The best possible solution, though it would be hard to implement, would be to reduce all ec in the game and all ec prices and every instance of ec by 1/10.
All bank accounts lose the final digit, all vendor prices and all mission rewards lose the final digit, all instances of ec everywhere in the game lose the final digit.
Problem solved.
STO has big numbers for the sake of big numbers. 10 ec is already equivalent to 0 ec in the game.
Basically devaluation.
The thing here however is that you've changed only the number of commas, and nothing else. So the Connie now sales for 100 million instead of 1 billion, but everyone has 1/10 of the currency to spend so nothing changes.
Unless you leave the Exchange Cap untouched, but as I noted- that created general inflation for low cost items hurting the new and causal players.
First rule: There is no such thing as free lunch.
Second Rule: You have an idea? Ask why they haven't done it, there's likely a reason.
The best possible solution, though it would be hard to implement, would be to reduce all ec in the game and all ec prices and every instance of ec by 1/10.
All bank accounts lose the final digit, all vendor prices and all mission rewards lose the final digit, all instances of ec everywhere in the game lose the final digit.
Problem solved.
STO has big numbers for the sake of big numbers. 10 ec is already equivalent to 0 ec in the game.
Basically devaluation.
The thing here however is that you've changed only the number of commas, and nothing else. So the Connie now sales for 100 million instead of 1 billion, but everyone has 1/10 of the currency to spend so nothing changes.
Unless you leave the Exchange Cap untouched, but as I noted- that created general inflation for low cost items hurting the new and causal players.
First rule: There is no such thing as free lunch.
Second Rule: You have an idea? Ask why they haven't done it, there's likely a reason.
Did you ever explain why you keep saying the ec cap caused prices go up?
Anything moved into the Grey Market lacks the price pressure of very open and posted prices of the exchange. This is because the sales are effectively 'off the record method' and the simple fact that at any one time a Seller is against only those other sellers currently online (and in trade chat). The exchange in contrast is the Seller against all Sellers.
This is most important when combined with a Seller's Market, such at the 23rd century promo ships. The end result is high prices to start, and a longer period of high prices.
On the plus side, the caps do reduce the inflation rate of prices on the exchange itself for common and slightly uncommon gear.
The best possible solution, though it would be hard to implement, would be to reduce all ec in the game and all ec prices and every instance of ec by 1/10.
All bank accounts lose the final digit, all vendor prices and all mission rewards lose the final digit, all instances of ec everywhere in the game lose the final digit.
Problem solved.
STO has big numbers for the sake of big numbers. 10 ec is already equivalent to 0 ec in the game.
Basically devaluation.
The thing here however is that you've changed only the number of commas, and nothing else. So the Connie now sales for 100 million instead of 1 billion, but everyone has 1/10 of the currency to spend so nothing changes.
Unless you leave the Exchange Cap untouched, but as I noted- that created general inflation for low cost items hurting the new and causal players.
First rule: There is no such thing as free lunch.
Second Rule: You have an idea? Ask why they haven't done it, there's likely a reason.
Did you ever explain why you keep saying the ec cap caused prices go up?
Anything moved into the Grey Market lacks the price pressure of very open and posted prices of the exchange. This is because the sales are effectively 'off the record method' and the simple fact that at any one time a Seller is against only those other sellers currently online (and in trade chat). The exchange in contrast is the Seller against all Sellers.
This is most important when combined with a Seller's Market, such at the 23rd century promo ships. The end result is high prices to start, and a longer period of high prices.
On the plus side, the caps do reduce the inflation rate of prices on the exchange itself for common and slightly uncommon gear.
How does that jive with
"Unless you leave the Exchange Cap untouched, but as I noted- that created general inflation for low cost items hurting the new and causal players."
If your reduce currency to 1/10 across the board, but leave the 1 billion cap for characters and the 750 million cap for the exchange- in the long run you'll inflate the prices of everything until the wealth once again exceeds the cap, and the Grey Market returns with the same effects as it has now.
Only the most expensive items in the game have ever come near the ec cap, only the tiniest fraction of them all.
The ec cap has no effect one way or another on the price of almost all the items in the game.
Remember, there are two caps. One per character (and that determines the top limit of what can be purchased on the exchange). And the exchange cap, set below this to prevent unintended player EC loss. It's the first cap that's important, and it exists to keep inflation lower as it's a brake on the currency supply.
The simple way these things work means that raising the individual cap will result in rising prices as you've grown the currency supply. It's basically a solid as physical law.
Only the most expensive items in the game have ever come near the ec cap, only the tiniest fraction of them all.
The ec cap has no effect one way or another on the price of almost all the items in the game.
Remember, there are two caps. One per character (and that determines the top limit of what can be purchased on the exchange). And the exchange cap, set below this to prevent unintended player EC loss. It's the first cap that's important, and it exists to keep inflation lower as it's a brake on the currency supply.
The simple way these things work means that raising the individual cap will result in rising prices as you've grown the currency supply. It's basically a solid as physical law.
People all get around the per-toon ec cap by making alts, it doesnt really matter.
Yes it does. There is also a cap on the number of toons you can create. Also the prices on the exchange for single purchases doesn't allow the combining of toon resources (which the grey market does).
Both of these factors are limits and part of the cap.
Everything works together to create the end result.
Can you try and tie all of this back to the exchange cap going up affecting the prices of cheap items?
Which is what I asked you about.
I've taken my best shot at it already. Rising the exchange cap without rising the individual character cap is harmful (it could cause character to lose earned EC) and above 1b meaningless (as a character can't have that much in pocket). To raise one, you must raise the other and that increases the currency supply. And that causes inflation.
The best idea to combat inflation is the Infinity Lockbox. Keep it available in the Dilithium Store on a full time basis and have it drop in-game as it does now on the cusp of the retirement of the current Lockbox before the introduction of the new one.
Also what they could also do is run a Promotion Rerun Event. Like the current Promotion in concept except that one would have the Prize ship be a selection of all the older Prize Ships (and not the one just introduced and Promoted).
Unlike the new Featured Episode Rerun Event, this Rerun Event, would still offer the 10 Lobi as the consolidation prize.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The best idea to combat inflation is the Infinity Lockbox. Keep it available in the Dilithium Store on a full time basis and have it drop in-game as it does now on the cusp of the retirement of the current Lockbox before the introduction of the new one.
Also what they could also do is run a Promotion Rerun Event. Like the current Promotion in concept except that one would have the Prize ship be a selection of all the older Prize Ships (and not the one just introduced and Promoted).
Unlike the new Featured Episode Rerun Event, this Rerun Event, would still offer the 10 Lobi as the consolidation prize.
Attacking things from the supply side, yes this would help and also give new players a shot at desired ships.
Of course it's counter to the 'rare' ship idea that lockboxes and promo ships are suppose to represent, but IMO that boat sailed long ago and now only seems to apply to the Summer and Winter ships. And even that isn't true because while you only have one chance to get them- they are very easy to get and thus very common. Only new players are out of luck.
Comments
Yes, I picked the term for a reason.
Cryptic doesn't sell anything in game for EC at a price that comes close to 1b, so I doubt they think you need more than 1 billion.
Just raising the cap will have little but negative effect, causing inflation across the board for the Exchange Market which in turn will inflate the Grey Market as it becomes much easier to build higher levels of wealth. That's the simple and unbreakable rule of adding more currency to a market.
Further, I imagine Cryptic likes the current effect, the cap means high wealth players must shift their wealth to goods- i.e. Keys and high value reward packs. That means the company makes more money on these players as someone has to buy those Keys and thus the high value reward packs.
As for EC sinks... at this point in the history of the game will meet with player outrage for the most part. They are also *very* difficult on new or casual players if they were significant enough to affect the currency value. It would require a scaling sink that bites more and more as a player's wealth rises (in effect a progressive tax for being successful in the game).
That will cause players will avoid it by seeking tax shelters meaning that you'd have to tax all sources of in-game wealth- i.e. stored Keys, ships, etc. That in turn would require players either losing or at least losing access to things they've already earned if they haven't paid the tax. I can't imagine that going over well.
Things like this aren't easily solved. EVE Online manages by people actually losing their ships and game as part of game play- and then they have to be replaced. And even it still sees inflation (but on the whole, it works).
And calling player trades a "grey market" is an insult. That's rubbish. Keys only have value because people use them. Their value and demand is driven by people using them, not storing them.
This is an MMO. Everything meets with player outrage. Also, you clearly have no idea what a currency sink is.
That's not what a currency sink is.
A currency sink is something to buy that removes the currency from the game economy (ie, from a vendor, not another player). Unfortunately, other than commodities for fleet project there is basically nothing particularly high-value that one can actually buy with EC.
EC probably doesn't effect their bottom line that much. So they probably don't care.
You (and others) are unaware it seems how games use currency sinks and what form they take. LotRO to use one example uses three minor ones- they take a 10% cut of anything sold on their auction house (a sales tax, an approach shared by EVE Online), require gold (their currency) to keep access to your game housing (a property tax), and force a repair bill for wear and tear on your equipment (in practical terms, a usage tax).
All these are 'currency sinks' as the only requirement for that label is that currency is removed from the in-game market. Like the objectors to the term 'grey market', there are a lot of people who just won't check into something before trying to 'correct' others. It would be funny if it's wasn't sad.
Even the items you outright purchase for use (such as hypos and shield batteries) are effectively a usage tax just like the Gear wear and tear cost. To play the game and use all the available abilities- you are required to fork over part of your income although in STO this is insignificant (and the items are seldom even needed or used, at least in my case).
High end items, such as the Holo-officers in the replicator are slightly more effective (with some costing $1) but in the end- insignificant to the task as they are once and done or unneeded. One could waste development time on these all one wished, but the end effect would be unnoticeable. However in the end, these too are a 'usage tax', for it's something you've paid for with in game currency to use. Remember this is a virtual space, and all costs are in practical terms created and enforce by the design as "taxes".
Game economies are very complex subjects with very few MMOs having effective and working ones. EVE Online is the only example I have experience with, but it uses extreme methods of removing not just currency but actual wealth (i.e. character items) from the game. And it too suffers inflation although at a much more acceptable rate.
Do you really want more space homeless?! Think of the space children!
The 'good' reason is to keep in-game inflation in check such that new and casual players don't find themselves with a huge uphill battle in front of them. The designers of these systems would quote "The needs of the many...".
Do I agree with this line of reasoning? Only sort of. Few games do enough to matter, and none make it progressive enough to really control inflation. So it seems to be a solution that doesn't really work for the most part.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
That's the tension in the game design, the 'taxes' can't be enough to hurt new or casual players or you loss the player based needed for the game.
That's why a progressive solution would be better, charge the low end transactions (let's use 100K as an example) either no or a very small tax- say 1%. And hit the 1 Billion Credit transaction with a 50% tax of 500 million.
The thing is, this will just drive things away from the public market (the exchange) to the Grey Market (the Trade channels). So you'd have to charge a 'transfer fee' on every player-to-player trade in the game. The problem there is coming up with a tax schedule for the trade.
Would this work? I doubt it, I don't now of any game that does it so there's likely a good reason why. For one, I bet the players would revolt.
Basically devaluation.
The thing here however is that you've changed only the number of commas, and nothing else. So the Connie now sales for 100 million instead of 1 billion, but everyone has 1/10 of the currency to spend so nothing changes.
Unless you leave the Exchange Cap untouched, but as I noted- that created general inflation for low cost items hurting the new and causal players.
First rule: There is no such thing as free lunch.
Second Rule: You have an idea? Ask why they haven't done it, there's likely a reason.
Anything moved into the Grey Market lacks the price pressure of very open and posted prices of the exchange. This is because the sales are effectively 'off the record method' and the simple fact that at any one time a Seller is against only those other sellers currently online (and in trade chat). The exchange in contrast is the Seller against all Sellers.
This is most important when combined with a Seller's Market, such at the 23rd century promo ships. The end result is high prices to start, and a longer period of high prices.
On the plus side, the caps do reduce the inflation rate of prices on the exchange itself for common and slightly uncommon gear.
If your reduce currency to 1/10 across the board, but leave the 1 billion cap for characters and the 750 million cap for the exchange- in the long run you'll inflate the prices of everything until the wealth once again exceeds the cap, and the Grey Market returns with the same effects as it has now.
Remember, there are two caps. One per character (and that determines the top limit of what can be purchased on the exchange). And the exchange cap, set below this to prevent unintended player EC loss. It's the first cap that's important, and it exists to keep inflation lower as it's a brake on the currency supply.
The simple way these things work means that raising the individual cap will result in rising prices as you've grown the currency supply. It's basically a solid as physical law.
Yes it does. There is also a cap on the number of toons you can create. Also the prices on the exchange for single purchases doesn't allow the combining of toon resources (which the grey market does).
Both of these factors are limits and part of the cap.
Everything works together to create the end result.
I've taken my best shot at it already. Rising the exchange cap without rising the individual character cap is harmful (it could cause character to lose earned EC) and above 1b meaningless (as a character can't have that much in pocket). To raise one, you must raise the other and that increases the currency supply. And that causes inflation.
If that still doesn't work for you, try here first: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply. And if needed seek out some of the source materials listed for more detail.
Also what they could also do is run a Promotion Rerun Event. Like the current Promotion in concept except that one would have the Prize ship be a selection of all the older Prize Ships (and not the one just introduced and Promoted).
Unlike the new Featured Episode Rerun Event, this Rerun Event, would still offer the 10 Lobi as the consolidation prize.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Attacking things from the supply side, yes this would help and also give new players a shot at desired ships.
Of course it's counter to the 'rare' ship idea that lockboxes and promo ships are suppose to represent, but IMO that boat sailed long ago and now only seems to apply to the Summer and Winter ships. And even that isn't true because while you only have one chance to get them- they are very easy to get and thus very common. Only new players are out of luck.