How is it forum logic when the TV series on numerous occasions officially retired vessels from active service (like the Constitution class in the TNG era)?
There is a limit on how far you can go to update an older vessel with modern technology. Take for example the challenge of getting a Spanish Galleon ready for modern naval combat today or race preparing a 70's Jag for next year's Le Mans (which demonstrate the universal design problem extant through ALL examples of this, without the convenient escape of "MAGIC FICTIONAL TECHNOLOGY MAKES ALL PROBLEMS OBSOLETE!")
It could be done but at enormous costs, compromised results (if any), and great personal initiative. After a certain point you might as well just build something new (which is a thumbs up to any in-head-canon explanation for why the top spec [T6] D7/T'liss/Connie are not in general circulation in 2410, if TNG through VOY wasn't already sufficient.)
Judging from this post, I can assume that you didn't bother to read mine. And as a hint, try to refrain from opening your argument with a dismissive insult: alienating the people you're trying to convince is typically a bad way to go about an argument.
First, we'll get this inaccuracy out of the way:
...which is a thumbs up to any in-head-canon explanation for why the top spec [T6] D7/T'liss/Connie are not in general circulation in 2410...
While it is true that the Constitution has indeed not seen upper-tier status in this game up until now, a Fleet T5-U D7 has been available for two years now (and the regular fleet T5 for much longer), and while the T'Liss itself hasn't been given endgame treatment until now, the century-older T'Varo has had such a distinction since its introduction.
STO, as it explains in the game, and has been explained in this thread, does not retrofit older hulls with new components, but rather builds new hulls that look like older hulls, taking advantage of improved components and fabrication techniques. And, as I have already explained, Star Trek does have that "magic fictional technology that makes all problems [that we're discussing here] obsolete". This is not a "convenient escape", this is established canon. Within the Federation, the advent of replicators completely erased a whole swath of material problems that we see as insurmountable today, ranging from hunger to major manufacturing limitations.
You're also using poor examples of why a particular vehicle's look change over time: ocean going ships have changed their appearance since the 17th century because they use an entirely different propulsion and materials technology, whereas Starfleet has been using the same technology for centuries.
Automobiles constantly change their appearance because of marketing and shifting consumer aesthetic tastes, factors that don't dictate the appearance of ships in Star Trek (outside of the show's production sensibilities). As talien put it, there's actually no technological reason for an automobile company to not make a newer car look like an older model, barring aerodynamic and previous design flaw considerations. Ford even did a half-decent job of making their Mustang revival actually resemble a classic Mustang, albeit altered to make its fabrication process less expensive. Although I suppose that that's an example of downgrading from a T6 to a T4...
I should point out, that it is canon that the Constitution-class was never retired, and was still in service well into the 24th century, as at least one took part in the Battle of Wolf 359. Adding to that, the presumably equally-old Miranda class and the (somewhat) younger Excelsior class were still in service in 2378, appearing as late as the last scene of Voyager's Endgame.
TLDR: as we've been explaining, there's absolutely no physical reason for Starfleet to not be able to build a ship to have a tailor-made appearance, including that of a nostalgic design, given the magical fictional technologies that they're actually depicted has having in the show.
This issue isn't nearly as big a deal as some players like to think it is.
Check out the Ranger skin for the Paladin. It's almost a perfect match for the NX refit. It looks great and it's a pretty nice ship. The TOS skin is just a little too polished to capture the feel of the earliest Starfleet Command vessels. Put one of the other materials on it and Bob's your uncle.
You took the words out of my mouth I love that dang ship. XD
Whilst I like the NX and the TMP Connie and the KT-Connie (I have them all), I really have would've hoped that people would leave these ships to retire gracefully, but no, people insist on giving the ships a reputation of the simpleton dwarven half-brother being dragged up to fight against Mike Tyson for the 10th time of being pulped!
It makes no sense from a tactical or engineering point of view to refit or rebuild old designs that aren't actually capable of coping with the strains of new technology and new tactics!
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
It makes no sense from a tactical or engineering point of view to refit or rebuild old designs that aren't actually capable of coping with the strains of new technology and new tactics!
So, after I and others in this thread already explained all of this... really?
This is probably my biggest source of fun and entertainment on the forums so I'm glad the concept won't die no matter how many new ships that are too old get released.
Setting aside the D'Kyr, the Somraw, the T'Varo, the new D7-T'Liss-Constitution, all of the temporal ships like the Daedalus ... setting aside the Xindi ships ...
Let's focus on the Constellation class.
Because I can fly a T5-U Constellation class in this game.
Yet we know for a fact that in TNG the Constellation class was retired. Picard mentions it when they find the Stargazer. And then it comes up a second time when Riker and Worf and Geordi and Wesley crew one in that wargames episode.
There's no retrofits. There's no temporal shennanigans. I can just pop a Constellation skin onto my T5-U 4 nacelle cruiser and go!
But, but, but ... it's too old!
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Keep it coming folks. The Vulcan Science academy, transwarping to the next thread in their ancient D'Kyr welcomes your faulty logic!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,694Community Moderator
Federation starships are designed to have long lifespans and take into account advances in technology. The Galaxy class I believe was said to have a service life of at least 100 years when she was designed.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Basically, only double the lifespan of some mid-20th century US Navy ships. And one of those (CV-65 Enterprise) was a prototype that wound up being in service for 52 years...
I'm just a little peeved something with 2 nacelles and a saucer attached to a log isn't in the c-store for a 2nd time in a row this expansion. The first was legit but the second... is actually pushing what I'd call acceptable.
Lockbox ships have traditionally been more powerful, from being released at Fleet tier, but this was explained away as exclusivity and that fleet shipyards won't be making these things.
The Connie? Fine make it exclusive. But allowing it to have even the Exeter and the Excalibur skin is threading that line Cryptic is not supposed to cross: putting ships of the line in a lockbox.
And also is this the anniversary ship? If so, what are we getting this anniversary? The last time I played I got a Ent-C and a voiced mission. I hope we're not just getting this lockbox.
Anyway, I digress. I guess we can now look forward to the Kelvin Timeline Temporal Deep Space Escort, Frank-Lin-class, in a box that can also use the NX01 skin.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
The Connie? Fine make it exclusive. But allowing it to have even the Exeter and the Excalibur skin is threading that line Cryptic is not supposed to cross: putting ships of the line in a lockbox.
We can't have ships of the line in a lockbox? *Looks at Kelvin Connie, Tholian Mesh Weaver, Xindi ships, Cardassian Galor...* Since when?
And also is this the anniversary ship? If so, what are we getting this anniversary? The last time I played I got a Ent-C and a voiced mission. I hope we're not just getting this lockbox.
You're thinking STO's anniversary event. This is the 50th Anniversary of the ORIGINAL series Star Trek. The most we got for Next Generation's anniversary was meeting a holographic season 1 Worf and some cosmetic additions.
Anyway, I digress. I guess we can now look forward to the Kelvin Timeline Temporal Deep Space Escort, Frank-Lin-class, in a box that can also use the NX01 skin.
Well... the Franklin and the NX are two different classes that share a similar layout... could be interesting, but I don't see it happening for Star Trek's anniversary.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
As much as I'd love a T6 NX-class, there's no way in hell I'm going for it if it's only a single-character unlock. Putting it in the C-store -- or better yet, making it an event reward -- would be ideal.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
You mean like the life span of a B-52 that has to fly through our atmosphere at 78 - 88 years?
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Well... the Franklin and the NX are two different classes that share a similar layout... could be interesting, but I don't see it happening for Star Trek's anniversary.
More similar than the Miranda and the Centaur or the Cheyenne and Constellation.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
You mean like the life span of a B-52 that has to fly through our atmosphere at 78 - 88 years?
64 years and counting, to be precise. And upgrades to the fleet were apparently instigated in 2013, so it's likely that there's no plans to retire the bomber anytime soon. When it comes to aircraft (and the B-52 isn't alone in this), that's impressive not so much that that it's used in an atmosphere (since we're talking more about classes/models, rather than individual vehicles), but rather that aircraft have seen more technological improvements since the early 50s.
For instance, the Cessna 150 (59 years and counting) has been upgraded to a modern glass-cockpit aircraft, but still looks basically the same as when it was first produced in the late 50s.
How is it forum logic when the TV series on numerous occasions officially retired vessels from active service (like the Constitution class in the TNG era)?
universal design problem extant through ALL examples of this, without the convenient escape of "MAGIC FICTIONAL TECHNOLOGY MAKES ALL PROBLEMS OBSOLETE!")
It could be done but at enormous costs, compromised results (if any), and great personal initiative. After a certain point you might as well just build something new (which is a thumbs up to any in-head-canon explanation for why the top spec [T6] D7/T'liss/Connie are not in general circulation in 2410, if TNG through VOY wasn't already sufficient.)
What costs? How much pixie dust goes into making fictional starships?
Let's take a look at those "costs" as presented IN GAME. So, you have a Breen engine. One button click and it is equipped. No drydock required. Same for weapons or anything else.
What about the endless number of enemy ships? Like, seriously endless. How long/how many resources are required to make all those ships, train all those crews?
How many starships has Starfleet/Klingon Defence Force/Romulan Republic Navy built in 18 months? How many new starship designs? I don't even know how the Romulan Republic builds ships. I assume their vessels are grown in the Flotilla via mitosis or something.
Point being, since we have no problems instantly equipping Undine Bioships with Borg and Dominion technology, the engineering problems of making a modern ship look old (and building it in a week) seem incredibly trivial.
Comments
Judging from this post, I can assume that you didn't bother to read mine. And as a hint, try to refrain from opening your argument with a dismissive insult: alienating the people you're trying to convince is typically a bad way to go about an argument.
First, we'll get this inaccuracy out of the way: While it is true that the Constitution has indeed not seen upper-tier status in this game up until now, a Fleet T5-U D7 has been available for two years now (and the regular fleet T5 for much longer), and while the T'Liss itself hasn't been given endgame treatment until now, the century-older T'Varo has had such a distinction since its introduction.
STO, as it explains in the game, and has been explained in this thread, does not retrofit older hulls with new components, but rather builds new hulls that look like older hulls, taking advantage of improved components and fabrication techniques. And, as I have already explained, Star Trek does have that "magic fictional technology that makes all problems [that we're discussing here] obsolete". This is not a "convenient escape", this is established canon. Within the Federation, the advent of replicators completely erased a whole swath of material problems that we see as insurmountable today, ranging from hunger to major manufacturing limitations.
You're also using poor examples of why a particular vehicle's look change over time: ocean going ships have changed their appearance since the 17th century because they use an entirely different propulsion and materials technology, whereas Starfleet has been using the same technology for centuries.
Automobiles constantly change their appearance because of marketing and shifting consumer aesthetic tastes, factors that don't dictate the appearance of ships in Star Trek (outside of the show's production sensibilities). As talien put it, there's actually no technological reason for an automobile company to not make a newer car look like an older model, barring aerodynamic and previous design flaw considerations. Ford even did a half-decent job of making their Mustang revival actually resemble a classic Mustang, albeit altered to make its fabrication process less expensive. Although I suppose that that's an example of downgrading from a T6 to a T4...
I should point out, that it is canon that the Constitution-class was never retired, and was still in service well into the 24th century, as at least one took part in the Battle of Wolf 359. Adding to that, the presumably equally-old Miranda class and the (somewhat) younger Excelsior class were still in service in 2378, appearing as late as the last scene of Voyager's Endgame.
TLDR: as we've been explaining, there's absolutely no physical reason for Starfleet to not be able to build a ship to have a tailor-made appearance, including that of a nostalgic design, given the magical fictional technologies that they're actually depicted has having in the show.
This issue isn't nearly as big a deal as some players like to think it is.
You took the words out of my mouth I love that dang ship. XD
It makes no sense from a tactical or engineering point of view to refit or rebuild old designs that aren't actually capable of coping with the strains of new technology and new tactics!
This is probably my biggest source of fun and entertainment on the forums so I'm glad the concept won't die no matter how many new ships that are too old get released.
Setting aside the D'Kyr, the Somraw, the T'Varo, the new D7-T'Liss-Constitution, all of the temporal ships like the Daedalus ... setting aside the Xindi ships ...
Let's focus on the Constellation class.
Because I can fly a T5-U Constellation class in this game.
Yet we know for a fact that in TNG the Constellation class was retired. Picard mentions it when they find the Stargazer. And then it comes up a second time when Riker and Worf and Geordi and Wesley crew one in that wargames episode.
There's no retrofits. There's no temporal shennanigans. I can just pop a Constellation skin onto my T5-U 4 nacelle cruiser and go!
But, but, but ... it's too old!
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Keep it coming folks. The Vulcan Science academy, transwarping to the next thread in their ancient D'Kyr welcomes your faulty logic!
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Lockbox ships have traditionally been more powerful, from being released at Fleet tier, but this was explained away as exclusivity and that fleet shipyards won't be making these things.
The Connie? Fine make it exclusive. But allowing it to have even the Exeter and the Excalibur skin is threading that line Cryptic is not supposed to cross: putting ships of the line in a lockbox.
And also is this the anniversary ship? If so, what are we getting this anniversary? The last time I played I got a Ent-C and a voiced mission. I hope we're not just getting this lockbox.
Anyway, I digress. I guess we can now look forward to the Kelvin Timeline Temporal Deep Space Escort, Frank-Lin-class, in a box that can also use the NX01 skin.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
We can't have ships of the line in a lockbox? *Looks at Kelvin Connie, Tholian Mesh Weaver, Xindi ships, Cardassian Galor...* Since when?
You're thinking STO's anniversary event. This is the 50th Anniversary of the ORIGINAL series Star Trek. The most we got for Next Generation's anniversary was meeting a holographic season 1 Worf and some cosmetic additions.
Well... the Franklin and the NX are two different classes that share a similar layout... could be interesting, but I don't see it happening for Star Trek's anniversary.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
More similar than the Miranda and the Centaur or the Cheyenne and Constellation.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
64 years and counting, to be precise. And upgrades to the fleet were apparently instigated in 2013, so it's likely that there's no plans to retire the bomber anytime soon. When it comes to aircraft (and the B-52 isn't alone in this), that's impressive not so much that that it's used in an atmosphere (since we're talking more about classes/models, rather than individual vehicles), but rather that aircraft have seen more technological improvements since the early 50s.
For instance, the Cessna 150 (59 years and counting) has been upgraded to a modern glass-cockpit aircraft, but still looks basically the same as when it was first produced in the late 50s.
Let's take a look at those "costs" as presented IN GAME. So, you have a Breen engine. One button click and it is equipped. No drydock required. Same for weapons or anything else.
What about the endless number of enemy ships? Like, seriously endless. How long/how many resources are required to make all those ships, train all those crews?
How many starships has Starfleet/Klingon Defence Force/Romulan Republic Navy built in 18 months? How many new starship designs? I don't even know how the Romulan Republic builds ships. I assume their vessels are grown in the Flotilla via mitosis or something.
Point being, since we have no problems instantly equipping Undine Bioships with Borg and Dominion technology, the engineering problems of making a modern ship look old (and building it in a week) seem incredibly trivial.