Borticus has confirmed some time back in Reddit that damage and proximity are the top threat generators with healing coming in third. It's a leftover of the old ground system where the tank was supposed to be fighting point blank.
The +Th consoles just magnifies the threat generated by the above.
Borticus has confirmed some time back in Reddit that damage and proximity are the top threat generators with healing coming in third. It's a leftover of the old ground system where the tank was supposed to be fighting point blank.
The +Th consoles just magnifies the threat generated by the above.
That would match up with my experience then. I've been using proximity as a key tanking tactic my entire time in game. And using my not so very scientific "eye test" ... it's helped me draw aggro pretty easily.
...Tacs have damage boosts than neither engs or scis can even come close to no matter what consoles, traits, and boff abilities are used. Scis have support and debuff abilities that are unparalleled. In contrast, engineers have healing and power level abilities that can be used by everyone.
This about sums it up. There are lots of "Engineer fans" that take this statement personally as if it's a knock on them. I realize that we can come across that way but in the end we all want the same thing. We want more of a level playing field so that Engineers aren't left behind.
When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
As an engineer lacks direct damage boosts (the easiest way to increase threat), they will always have the lowest threat scale of the three classes. I'm not demanding a damage buff, but engineers really have no way to compete against a tac and sci threat wise right now.
I'd be curious to hear Borticus or CrypticRock discuss this because it's been my experience with this game that Proximity is the easiest way to get aggro in this game and I've found that with lower damage potential, as long as I'm using similar threat generation (+Threat consoles for instance), that being closer to the target has helped me get aggro over people doing more damage.
Proximity aggro has been a key element to my tanking going back all 6 years in this game. It's been something I think that gets overlooked quite often as it's not something one can parse.
EDIT: I'm 1 hour and 5 minutes into the Show podcast. It's fascinating.
I think it's also just something that is kinda the same for every class. For optimum DPS, it's also a good idea to be close to the enemy, too, so everyone has an interest to get close to his enemies.
So while it might be one of the most important factors in the "aggro" calculation of STO, it's not somethnig any character class has much influence on.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
As an engineer lacks direct damage boosts (the easiest way to increase threat), they will always have the lowest threat scale of the three classes. I'm not demanding a damage buff, but engineers really have no way to compete against a tac and sci threat wise right now.
I'd be curious to hear Borticus or CrypticRock discuss this because it's been my experience with this game that Proximity is the easiest way to get aggro in this game and I've found that with lower damage potential, as long as I'm using similar threat generation (+Threat consoles for instance), that being closer to the target has helped me get aggro over people doing more damage.
Proximity aggro has been a key element to my tanking going back all 6 years in this game. It's been something I think that gets overlooked quite often as it's not something one can parse.
EDIT: I'm 1 hour and 5 minutes into the Show podcast. It's fascinating.
Yup, damage and proximity are the two main factors that determine aggro, which means tacs and scis do it better than engs, unfortunately.
...Tacs have damage boosts than neither engs or scis can even come close to no matter what consoles, traits, and boff abilities are used. Scis have support and debuff abilities that are unparalleled. In contrast, engineers have healing and power level abilities that can be used by everyone.
This about sums it up. There are lots of "Engineer fans" that take this statement personally as if it's a knock on them. I realize that we can come across that way but in the end we all want the same thing. We want more of a level playing field so that Engineers aren't left behind.
Yeah, simply put, other captains are able to replicate engineering abilities (such as healing and power level abilities) with little or no sacrifice to their boff/console layout. There are just so many abilities present in the game that are so much stronger than eng captain power counterparts that 'engineer specific' abilities can't really make much of a difference in end-game content anymore, nor can they provide anything 'unique' to the captain that's using it.
BTW, on a completely unrelated note, those new promo ships look awesome...
An engineer can tank slightly better than a Tac or Sci can... on paper. With the ridiculous amounts of damage and even more ridiculous amounts of Exotic damage that players can put out, there's simply no place for PVP tanking. PVE tanking is somewhat more useful/less useless. Any semblance of class balance was forgotten about and ditched a long long time ago. As I always say to my fleet friends... "everyone should make one engineer so that they can see why they should never make another one."
I must be silly, then...I created 3 ( 1 for each faction) and run the Fed one as the far-and-away best-geared main. I'll acknowledge that the 2 non-main eng are mostly ground, but that (more than space, imo) is where they shine. That, and it's thematic for me to run the eng career, since I ended up having a B.S. in Civil Engineering irl.
It has come to my attention that engineering captain abilities in space are extremely lackluster when compared to their science and tactical counterparts. Toward the endgame, being an engineer can be especially redundant due to the fact that all their captain abilities can be replicated by a sci or tac by some way, shape, or fashion.
When I first started STO, I chose the engineering class because I wanted a class that could both do decent damage and survive decently well. While that is mostly true about the engineer, they will simply get overshadowed by tacs and scis later on due to the abundance of abilities players will unlock that mimic nearly all of the engineering captain abilities including specialization tree abilities, starship traits, and consoles.
For example, take Miracle Worker, the engineering ‘OH SH*T!’ button. This ability can be directly replicated by other careers through Continuity, Regenerative Integrity Field (The Samsar Console), Invincible (the Zahl Starship trait), and Desperate Repairs (the Guardian starship trait). Even Rally Point Marker, Hazard Emitters 3, and Engineering Team 3 are able to outheal it. You can tell something is wrong when even a Lt. Cmdr boff ability can outperform a captain ability. Miracle worker is supposed to be a ‘miracle’ ability, but right now there is nothing miraculous about it at all. The other engineer heal ability, Rotate Shield Frequency, is just straight out useless; as of its current state it does virtually nothing in space combat.
Engineers are also supposed to be the masters of subsystem power level control. However, there is little use for these abilities when other classes are able to maintain the max 125 subsystem power for most of the duration of queues even without them. Plasmonic leech and Supremacy directly mimic the power boost from EPS Power Transfer while the Marion Doff along with the KCB+AM set allow for similar if not greater power drain resistance granted from Nadion Inversion.
This is what I think should be done to rebalance engineers. Feel free to discuss about your opinion on these ideas
Miracle Worker: A slightly larger heal, +DRR rating, and +x to engineering skills for 30 seconds or +x% to energy damage (make it a miracle!)
Rotate Shield Frequency: I’m not sure about this one, though a larger heal would be a decent start.
EPS Power Transfer: Raise the maximum subsystem power level caps by +10 for the duration of the ability
Nadion Inversion: This is fine as it is imho.
All three classes were designed so that they could excel at certain roles and have their own ways of buffing their performance within combat: tacs through direct damage buffs, scis through debuffs and support abilities, and engineers through power manipulation and heals. However, now, tacs and scis are able to fill the roles engineers are supposed to be the best at, leaving engineers unable to truly shine at any role at all (except for perhaps pure healing, which isn’t really needed in the current game). Look at tanking for example. Engineers are supposed to be the ‘gold standard’ of tanking in STO. Now however, not only can tacs and scis out dps engineers due leading to more threat but they are also able to heal just as well thanks to the abundance of heals available. While engineers can still kick ****, scis can tacs can simply do it better and with more efficiency. The increasing powercreep in this game has made it so that engineers do not fit into the meta at all and I, along with many others, feel like their powers need a buff so that they can once again be competent in end-game play.
Or, simply, give them something like the cruiser command "attract fire" that's integrated into the career. Maybe make the captain abilities generate more threat. If we want them to fulfill their theoretical role, they need to be able to take the attention off of other people, and it seems thematically independent to have them do that by dong more damage. As for the powers:
1.) +DRR would work, like a massive version of Aux2SIF, and either eng skills or a passive hull regen buff.
2.) Possibly give RSF a chance each tick to shrug off 1 control effect or debuff, since it's otherwise just Extend shields for the user.
3.) +Cap could be good, but the power feels useful as-is. Maybe add the damage buff or another effect here, something consistent with it being a retuning of your EPS systems.
I think it's also just something that is kinda the same for every class. For optimum DPS, it's also a good idea to be close to the enemy, too, so everyone has an interest to get close to his enemies.
So while it might be one of the most important factors in the "aggro" calculation of STO, it's not somethnig any character class has much influence on.
My experience in PUGs is that even the high DPS member of my runs doesn't try to get as close as I typically do. A lot of folks can't absorb the damage as well, some are working on positioning to get flanking, and others have gotten the new science skill to reduce the distance penalty.
I try to be as point blank as possible, due to my build.
Yup, damage and proximity are the two main factors that determine aggro, which means tacs and scis do it better than engs, unfortunately.
Not sure that career choice makes a difference in proximity. At least not in any meaningful way I've encountered in the game all these years. What does Tac have that affects one's ability to maintain proximity? What does Sci have? What does Eng have or not have?
Most of the tools for aggro generation all seem to be non-career specific. So all I've ever really noticed is Tac can build for more DPS, but ENG can build to absorb damage better ... in the end, building for sticky aggro comes down to everything else other than career. And I'd be willing to be that is intended by the developers. It's why Threatening Stance is an ability every character has, not just engineers. It's why +Threat is on consoles anyone can equip. It's why attract fire is a ship toggle, not a career specific toggle.
Finally got all the way through the Show podcast. Wish I could access it on Stitcher or Google Play as I've got a long commute and listening in the car would be sweet instead of firing it up on YouTube.
It would be nice if engineers had some sort of ability to change the performance of your ship in many different ways, adapting from situation to situation. Some thing that payed homage to engineers coming up with ingenious solutions to multitude of problems keeping their ship alive and fighting hard. I would totally trade Nadion Inversion for a multi-mode ability like that.
I think it's also just something that is kinda the same for every class. For optimum DPS, it's also a good idea to be close to the enemy, too, so everyone has an interest to get close to his enemies.
So while it might be one of the most important factors in the "aggro" calculation of STO, it's not somethnig any character class has much influence on.
My experience in PUGs is that even the high DPS member of my runs doesn't try to get as close as I typically do. A lot of folks can't absorb the damage as well, some are working on positioning to get flanking, and others have gotten the new science skill to reduce the distance penalty.
I try to be as point blank as possible, due to my build.
Those high dps members may not have been trying to get threat. However, when a decently dps'ed tac will attempt to draw threat, he will almost always do better than an engineer of equal skill/investment.
Not sure that career choice makes a difference in proximity. At least not in any meaningful way I've encountered in the game all these years. What does Tac have that affects one's ability to maintain proximity? What does Sci have? What does Eng have or not have?
Most of the tools for aggro generation all seem to be non-career specific. So all I've ever really noticed is Tac can build for more DPS, but ENG can build to absorb damage better ... in the end, building for sticky aggro comes down to everything else other than career. And I'd be willing to be that is intended by the developers. It's why Threatening Stance is an ability every character has, not just engineers. It's why +Threat is on consoles anyone can equip. It's why attract fire is a ship toggle, not a career specific toggle.
Finally got all the way through the Show podcast. Wish I could access it on Stitcher or Google Play as I've got a long commute and listening in the car would be sweet instead of firing it up on YouTube.
Yeah, tacs and scis are way better at drawing aggro than engs 'cause they do more damage. While you're right, none of the careers have anything that really affects proximity, both tacs and scis are able to out-dps engineers and hence, attract more threat. On the other hand, engineers cannot absorb damage that much better than tacs. The difference between an engineer's durability and a tac's/sci's durability is negligible due to how weak the engineer heal powers are. While engineers do have an advantage, the advantage is very small. (As @e30ernest said, the best tanks in HSE are actually tacs). Currently, an engineer tank would have to run nearly the same heal consoles/boff abilities as tacs because Miracle Worker and rotate shield frequency are just too weak for tanking elite endgame content. These powers should be buffed so that engineers have a distinct advantage over tacs and scis in healing again. Also, it's worth noting that while the engineer's ability to manipulate power levels as an offensive buff was very effective at the beginning of the game, currently, every career can accomplish the same thing. You might be saying "but engineers can just drop these alternatives because of their captain abilities!" but that assumption is incorrect. Any engineer that's using an energy damage build cannot just rely on EPS Power Transfer and Nadion Inversion because like Miracle Worker and RSF, they're too weak to hold out on their own. Currently all of these abilities cannot really be considered 'top tier' as they are overshadowed by many consoles, traits, boff abilities, etc. In order to make them be considered 'worthwhile abilities' again, they should be buffed so that engineers can stand out from the other classes again. Right now, engineers cannot really shine at any role, considering their abilities are more like semi-powerful boff abilities rather than actual captain abilities.
You should keep checking out The Show though. It's awesome.
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The +Th consoles just magnifies the threat generated by the above.
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That would match up with my experience then. I've been using proximity as a key tanking tactic my entire time in game. And using my not so very scientific "eye test" ... it's helped me draw aggro pretty easily.
I think it's also just something that is kinda the same for every class. For optimum DPS, it's also a good idea to be close to the enemy, too, so everyone has an interest to get close to his enemies.
So while it might be one of the most important factors in the "aggro" calculation of STO, it's not somethnig any character class has much influence on.
Yup, damage and proximity are the two main factors that determine aggro, which means tacs and scis do it better than engs, unfortunately.
Yeah, simply put, other captains are able to replicate engineering abilities (such as healing and power level abilities) with little or no sacrifice to their boff/console layout. There are just so many abilities present in the game that are so much stronger than eng captain power counterparts that 'engineer specific' abilities can't really make much of a difference in end-game content anymore, nor can they provide anything 'unique' to the captain that's using it.
BTW, on a completely unrelated note, those new promo ships look awesome...
I must be silly, then...I created 3 ( 1 for each faction) and run the Fed one as the far-and-away best-geared main. I'll acknowledge that the 2 non-main eng are mostly ground, but that (more than space, imo) is where they shine. That, and it's thematic for me to run the eng career, since I ended up having a B.S. in Civil Engineering irl.
Or, simply, give them something like the cruiser command "attract fire" that's integrated into the career. Maybe make the captain abilities generate more threat. If we want them to fulfill their theoretical role, they need to be able to take the attention off of other people, and it seems thematically independent to have them do that by dong more damage. As for the powers:
1.) +DRR would work, like a massive version of Aux2SIF, and either eng skills or a passive hull regen buff.
2.) Possibly give RSF a chance each tick to shrug off 1 control effect or debuff, since it's otherwise just Extend shields for the user.
3.) +Cap could be good, but the power feels useful as-is. Maybe add the damage buff or another effect here, something consistent with it being a retuning of your EPS systems.
My experience in PUGs is that even the high DPS member of my runs doesn't try to get as close as I typically do. A lot of folks can't absorb the damage as well, some are working on positioning to get flanking, and others have gotten the new science skill to reduce the distance penalty.
I try to be as point blank as possible, due to my build.
Not sure that career choice makes a difference in proximity. At least not in any meaningful way I've encountered in the game all these years. What does Tac have that affects one's ability to maintain proximity? What does Sci have? What does Eng have or not have?
Most of the tools for aggro generation all seem to be non-career specific. So all I've ever really noticed is Tac can build for more DPS, but ENG can build to absorb damage better ... in the end, building for sticky aggro comes down to everything else other than career. And I'd be willing to be that is intended by the developers. It's why Threatening Stance is an ability every character has, not just engineers. It's why +Threat is on consoles anyone can equip. It's why attract fire is a ship toggle, not a career specific toggle.
Finally got all the way through the Show podcast. Wish I could access it on Stitcher or Google Play as I've got a long commute and listening in the car would be sweet instead of firing it up on YouTube.
Those high dps members may not have been trying to get threat. However, when a decently dps'ed tac will attempt to draw threat, he will almost always do better than an engineer of equal skill/investment.
Yeah, tacs and scis are way better at drawing aggro than engs 'cause they do more damage. While you're right, none of the careers have anything that really affects proximity, both tacs and scis are able to out-dps engineers and hence, attract more threat. On the other hand, engineers cannot absorb damage that much better than tacs. The difference between an engineer's durability and a tac's/sci's durability is negligible due to how weak the engineer heal powers are. While engineers do have an advantage, the advantage is very small. (As @e30ernest said, the best tanks in HSE are actually tacs). Currently, an engineer tank would have to run nearly the same heal consoles/boff abilities as tacs because Miracle Worker and rotate shield frequency are just too weak for tanking elite endgame content. These powers should be buffed so that engineers have a distinct advantage over tacs and scis in healing again. Also, it's worth noting that while the engineer's ability to manipulate power levels as an offensive buff was very effective at the beginning of the game, currently, every career can accomplish the same thing. You might be saying "but engineers can just drop these alternatives because of their captain abilities!" but that assumption is incorrect. Any engineer that's using an energy damage build cannot just rely on EPS Power Transfer and Nadion Inversion because like Miracle Worker and RSF, they're too weak to hold out on their own. Currently all of these abilities cannot really be considered 'top tier' as they are overshadowed by many consoles, traits, boff abilities, etc. In order to make them be considered 'worthwhile abilities' again, they should be buffed so that engineers can stand out from the other classes again. Right now, engineers cannot really shine at any role, considering their abilities are more like semi-powerful boff abilities rather than actual captain abilities.
You should keep checking out The Show though. It's awesome.