Random thought about the Kelvin having KT-specific design elements already, which were seen in the KT-Constitution but not in the TOS-Constitution:
What if the people who would have created the TOS style were simple officers serving on the Kelvin, and blown to smithers by the first few volley's of Nero's torpedoes? That would mean that their ideas never reached the daylight. Combine that with the different approach to ship-building Starfleet took after loosing what we can expect to be a top-notch ship in a matter of minutes to an unknown enemy of great power, and you keep your old, well-known and comfortable style with some extra oomph.
In short: maybe the people who should have designed the TOS style died on the Kelvin, and their "replacements" kept most of what the Kelvin already had and expanded on it in several areas?
Just a theory, I happen to like the TOS connie more than the KT Connie myself.
Well, that would do the trick, but it seems very unlikely that the designers behind TOS ship designs would all be aboard the Kelvin at the same time.
It would only take one person though, the guy with the idea that inspired the rest of the group.
But that's not how it works in reality. Real design bureaus have different personnel handling different functions. To get the kind of departure we seen between the KT Connie and the Prime Connie, we'd need for the designers in charge of the warp drive, hull construction and tactical systems to be aboard the Kelvin, at least. That would be one heck of a coincidence (especially alongside Nero appearing just as Kirk's about to be born).
Just finished watching Star Trek 09, and realized that no one knew that Nero and Spock came from not only the future, but another universe's future.
Also the KT Enterprise was still at warp when Scotty ejects the core, she hadn't had the chance to slow down when they ejected the core, so they where pushed faster then the warp engines could go with combined warp speed inertia and the explosion's shock wave.
But I still don't like the KT Enterprise. Those nacelle's, yeesh.
And now back to you Bob and the ranting back at the studio.
Noticed it wasn't one large piece, it was like 4-6 canisters.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
While it isn't relevant for canon it may shed some light on the issue: Use "Emergency Powers to Engines" in STO. Look at what happens - your nacelles will glow and power will be diverted to the impulse engines (there's the animation overlay suggesting that). Could something like this have happened here? Who knows...
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Noticed it wasn't one large piece, it was like 4-6 canisters.
Probably because Kirk has no idea what he's on about when he said 'jettison the core' And Scotty thought it was easier to say 'aye sir' and proceed with jettisoning the coolant tanks or whatever they were. Imagine how impressed Kirk would be with Scotty's miracle that the ship can still warp without its core.
I'm now going to address a few points because it's hard to be bothered to reply to the same re-treaded arguments peddled out over and over again even after they've been debunked time and time again.
Deflector
The Kelvin's deflector is a a solid bronze/grey colour with a blue backlight similar to the NX. It is not all light as @farmallm keeps saying.
Engines
The Kelvin's impulse engines flare when it starts it's suicide run. It's using impulse power, the fact that it's nacelle also lights up is immaterial. It's flaring in the same way the blue grills on other nacelles would flare when warp power was being diverted to a different subsystem.
Crew
Pike says that George Kirk saved over 800 lives (or something to that effect) not that all were members of the crew. It could have being making a colony drop for all we can tell. That would also explain why there were so few shuttles for 800 people.
Size
There is little in the way or reliable consensus on the sizes of certain ships in the AR films (with only the Franklin maybe having a unargued size)
But the best estimates using canon material (the onscreen evidence) produces a size of ~300m. Which, as can be seen below, gives the saucer and secondary hull a very comparable volume to that of the TOS Conni. The Kelvin lacks a neck but has a slightly longer saucer so the volume remains very similar.
Interiors
The Shuttlebay of the Kelvin wouldn't look out of place in the NX. It's vaulted and realistic. The only difference is that it's designed with real materials in mind (i.e. metal) and has detailing expected of reality (i.e. hazard stripes etc.)
The styling and design of the bay is not 'wrong' for ST merely styled with a different aesthetic (industrial in this case) ENT has a sterile military look, TOS had a primary coloured cardboard look, TMP had chrome and beige etc.
There are other sets that represent the same thing. The vaulted, multi-leveled engineering for instance, highly reminiscent of the TMP one but with an industrial aesthetic and not a chrome one.
Bridge
If you're looking at the Bridge of the Kelvin and not seeing a fusion of ENT and the TOS films then you're looking at the wrong bridge.
Window
Present on the, NX pre-dating, Franklin.
And finally...
Age
The Kelvin line of ships (i.e. ships of the same age and design lineage) of the Kelvin, Kobayashi Maru, Newton, Mayflower, Armstrong, and Excelsior, all form a distinct family that predates TOS by a minimum of 6 years and an unknowable maximum (2230-2240). The TNG line Galaxy (2357) predates the DS9 line Defiant (2370) a mere 13 years, the TMP line of ships are a minimum of 6 years ahead of the TOS line of ships.
As a result we often get scenes with multiple lines of ships (TMP, TNG, and DS9 in this instance) together and they really do not look similar at all. Trying to claim the Kelvin era ships should look like TOS era ships is just plain daft.
Post edited by artan42 on
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I talked to one fellow movie goer, he thought it was an "Origin" story of Kirk and crew. Explaining how they got together. Another liked it cause of the action alone. This is the response I got from regular movie fans.
This is the thing, 'as a film' it's quite watchable*, but as part of an existing franchise, it's little more than at the most generous, a pastiche; at the least, a rip-off...
*If one is prepared to overlook inconsistencies and contrivances and use a large dose of headcanon to make things plausible/make sense (ie Nero's speech patterns, I attribute to, being a miner, his education may have come from Federation pop culture, rather than classic Imperial education, so less polished, rather than just thinking that the writers couldn't write in the same precice and multi-faceted manner as other Romulans... )
Yes, a huge dose of "headcanon" is needed for the JJ trek from what I saw on the 2009. They didn't hardly explain stuff. Just enough to fill in the next spot of pew pew.
For action, it was a good movie. For a Trek movie, it was not hitting on much.
Apparently, there's a lot of other stuff explained in deleted scenes and companion comics, but ultimately, I do put it down to weak writing... As you say, good movie (well, ish) but not so as a Trek movie...
The old movies tend to explain very little, too. Why does the Enterprise suddenly have a blue glowing deflector? (Heck, we don't even know it's called Deflector, I think, or what it does.) Why does the Sovereign have a yellow deflector instead?
The Warp effects are different between the TOS and the TNG movies. Why are shields sometimes skintight and sometimes bubbles?
I think all this stuff doesn't really need to be explained in a movie. Too much exposition for no gain.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I talked to one fellow movie goer, he thought it was an "Origin" story of Kirk and crew. Explaining how they got together. Another liked it cause of the action alone. This is the response I got from regular movie fans.
This is the thing, 'as a film' it's quite watchable*, but as part of an existing franchise, it's little more than at the most generous, a pastiche; at the least, a rip-off...
*If one is prepared to overlook inconsistencies and contrivances and use a large dose of headcanon to make things plausible/make sense (ie Nero's speech patterns, I attribute to, being a miner, his education may have come from Federation pop culture, rather than classic Imperial education, so less polished, rather than just thinking that the writers couldn't write in the same precice and multi-faceted manner as other Romulans... )
Yes, a huge dose of "headcanon" is needed for the JJ trek from what I saw on the 2009. They didn't hardly explain stuff. Just enough to fill in the next spot of pew pew.
For action, it was a good movie. For a Trek movie, it was not hitting on much.
Apparently, there's a lot of other stuff explained in deleted scenes and companion comics, but ultimately, I do put it down to weak writing... As you say, good movie (well, ish) but not so as a Trek movie...
The old movies tend to explain very little, too. Why does the Enterprise suddenly have a blue glowing deflector? (Heck, we don't even know it's called Deflector, I think, or what it does.) Why does the Sovereign have a yellow deflector instead?
The Warp effects are different between the TOS and the TNG movies. Why are shields sometimes skintight and sometimes bubbles?
I think all this stuff doesn't really need to be explained in a movie. Too much exposition for no gain.
Agreed. I remember getting confused in TWoK because the dropping shields scene seemed to suggest that the Enterprise had a few dozen shield generators that would go offline one at a time.
I talked to one fellow movie goer, he thought it was an "Origin" story of Kirk and crew. Explaining how they got together. Another liked it cause of the action alone. This is the response I got from regular movie fans.
This is the thing, 'as a film' it's quite watchable*, but as part of an existing franchise, it's little more than at the most generous, a pastiche; at the least, a rip-off...
*If one is prepared to overlook inconsistencies and contrivances and use a large dose of headcanon to make things plausible/make sense (ie Nero's speech patterns, I attribute to, being a miner, his education may have come from Federation pop culture, rather than classic Imperial education, so less polished, rather than just thinking that the writers couldn't write in the same precice and multi-faceted manner as other Romulans... )
Yes, a huge dose of "headcanon" is needed for the JJ trek from what I saw on the 2009. They didn't hardly explain stuff. Just enough to fill in the next spot of pew pew.
For action, it was a good movie. For a Trek movie, it was not hitting on much.
Apparently, there's a lot of other stuff explained in deleted scenes and companion comics, but ultimately, I do put it down to weak writing... As you say, good movie (well, ish) but not so as a Trek movie...
The old movies tend to explain very little, too. Why does the Enterprise suddenly have a blue glowing deflector?
The Warp effects are different between the TOS and the TNG movies.
Indeed they are, and that can be put down to people putting their own touch to the effects. But as I mentioned upthread, the difference in the warp effect was not a sign of the nacelles operating differently than they had before
Why are shields sometimes skintight and sometimes bubbles?
It's been a while since I read the technical manual (and I don't have it to hand to check) but I'm sure it mentions both skintight and bubble shields...
I think all this stuff doesn't really need to be explained in a movie. Too much exposition for no gain.
Absolutely, it doesn't necessarily need to be explained, it just needs to be done right in the first place, not handwaved away by 'alternate reality' any time someone raises a legitimate point
@artan42 Your attempts to invalidate the arguments presented by exaggerating them (I'm not sure, but I think that's called 'reductio ad absurdum' in formal circles) pretty much make further discussion pointless.
It's really not. So far the only arguments presented have been that different special effects in the three AR films prove some sort of special point that all the different special effects in other films or TV series don't. I'm not exaggerating anything, I'm pointing it out.
Actually, all I was trying to point out, is that the effects guys on the JJ Films took their own approach to the effects (regardless of anything previously established or seen in Trek)
In exactly the same way they did in TMP, and again in TWoK, then for TNG, then for DS9 and VOY, and finally for ENT.
Yes, except TNG, DS-9, VOY and ENT were then more consistent in their effects, compared to the TOS movies... Also, while those movies showed a different warp effect, they did not show the nacelles behaving any differently...
That's because ships of those eras didn't have thrusters on their nacelles.
Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha
The Enterprise-D has RCS thrusters on the rear 'corners' of its nacelles.....
The Enterprise-E also has structures which look suspiciously like RCS thrusters (but are unidentified) on the tips of its nacelles...
Voyager RCS thrusters, on the othe hand, are located on the primary hull, not the nacelles...
The RCS thrusters of the Enterprise-D, however never fired in the same way as the massive 'drive thrust' of the Kelvin...
So, they had thrusters as well. That's even less of a problem. The Kelvin simply diverted warp power to them for it's suicide run. Seriously, these thrusters become less of an issue each time somebody tries to prove otherwise.
Which you just firmly stated that they did not... And again, they did not function in the same way... They would have the kind of thrust seen in Into Darkness when they aligned the Enterprise with the Vengeance for the space-dive, not enough to generate the momentum needed for a suicide run
Ayel: Lord Nero! The Federation ship is drifting towards us!
Nero: Aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrgh!
Because I thought they didn't. Now I know they do. Since when has changing an argument based upon incoming evidence been a bad thing?
It's a thruster directly attached to the nacelle, why wouldn't it generate so much power? It's being fed directly from the warp drive.
Besides, just watching it from the video it's not even a thruster. The ship's simply charging the nacelles as if it were going to warp but without actually going to warp. Whether they can function as warp nacelles or not they can still power the ship. It's no different from the nacelles of the excelsior glowing blue before it fails to go to warp in III. Nacelles can still be used to propel the ship even at sublight. Also, the impulse engines flare at the same time so it might not even be the warp drive, the nacelles may just be flaring to show that warp power is being diverted into the impulse engines.
Looking back on frame by frame, it would appear that the flaring, may in fact be JJ's favorite thing: Lensflare... looking like instances of an afterburner...
But this one is still suspicious...
I'm willing to accept it as flaring, but I'm still not 100% that they weren't thinking 'thruster'...
There's two things that appear to be happening there, the first is lense flare, the second seems to be a small flicker which is caused by the blue glow momentarily reducing. That bit there seems to indicate a drop in power after the power is diverted to the impulse engines. It happens about half a second after the impulse engines flare.
But it dosn't matter really what the warp nacelle is doing as the impulse engines also increase in intensity and flare showing that they are propelling the ship forward. So it could be the artists were glowing every engine port on the ship they could find to sudgest speed or that it's merely an unfortunate blending of lense flare and the normal blue glow of a nacelle that shines out of the rear instead of the sides.
I still think it's the latter.
Edit: I can't find a vid, but what of the other Kelvin ships? They appear ready to make the jump to warp at Starbase One and may be shown manoeuvring as well. How are their nacelles and impulse blocks lit?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I talked to one fellow movie goer, he thought it was an "Origin" story of Kirk and crew. Explaining how they got together. Another liked it cause of the action alone. This is the response I got from regular movie fans.
This is the thing, 'as a film' it's quite watchable*, but as part of an existing franchise, it's little more than at the most generous, a pastiche; at the least, a rip-off...
*If one is prepared to overlook inconsistencies and contrivances and use a large dose of headcanon to make things plausible/make sense (ie Nero's speech patterns, I attribute to, being a miner, his education may have come from Federation pop culture, rather than classic Imperial education, so less polished, rather than just thinking that the writers couldn't write in the same precice and multi-faceted manner as other Romulans... )
Yes, a huge dose of "headcanon" is needed for the JJ trek from what I saw on the 2009. They didn't hardly explain stuff. Just enough to fill in the next spot of pew pew.
For action, it was a good movie. For a Trek movie, it was not hitting on much.
Apparently, there's a lot of other stuff explained in deleted scenes and companion comics, but ultimately, I do put it down to weak writing... As you say, good movie (well, ish) but not so as a Trek movie...
The old movies tend to explain very little, too. Why does the Enterprise suddenly have a blue glowing deflector?
Re-fit... That was pretty obvious...
But what technological reason exist for it being a dish and then turning into some glowing thing?
The Warp effects are different between the TOS and the TNG movies.
Indeed they are, and that can be put down to people putting their own touch to the effects. But as I mentioned upthread, the difference in the warp effect was not a sign of the nacelles operating differently than they had before
Why is the difference in warp effect not a sign that the nacelles are operating differently than they had before? The effect is totally different, is that even still the same FTL technology?
If some particle effect at the end of a warp engine signifies a different operating method, why wouldn't a different warp travel effect?
Why are shields sometimes skintight and sometimes bubbles?
It's been a while since I read the technical manual (and I don't have it to hand to check) but I'm sure it mentions both skintight and bubble shields...
So if Paramount prints a technical manual that explains the existence of warp nacelles with and without particle effects/exhausts, it's all good, too?
I think all this stuff doesn't really need to be explained in a movie. Too much exposition for no gain.
Absolutely, it doesn't necessarily need to be explained, it just needs to be done right in the first place, not handwaved away by 'alternate reality' any time someone raises a legitimate point
Well, it can be easily handwaved as: "Different SFX team trying to put a new spin on things". There doesn't have to be an in-universe explanation, just as there is no in-universe explanation for the different warp effects or why the TV series Enterprise-D appears much better lit than the movie Enterprise-D.
And if you want a in-universe explanation, why can't it be that some warp nacelle manufacturers build engines with the particle/exhaust effect, and some don't?
Occam's razor suggests to use the simpler approach to explaining an observation - you seem to think that positing a different quantum reality with different physics is the simpler appraoch to explaining different style of warp nacelles than positing that both can exist in the same universe.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
There's two things that appear to be happening there, the first is lense flare, the second seems to be a small flicker which is caused by the blue glow momentarily reducing. That bit there seems to indicate a drop in power after the power is diverted to the impulse engines. It happens about half a second after the impulse engines flare.
But it dosn't matter really what the warp nacelle is doing as the impulse engines also increase in intensity and flare showing that they are propelling the ship forward. So it could be the artists were glowing every engine port on the ship they could find to sudgest speed or that it's merely an unfortunate blending of lense flare and the normal blue glow of a nacelle that shines out of the rear instead of the sides.
I still think it's the latter.
Edit: I can't find a vid, but what of the other Kelvin ships? They appear ready to make the jump to warp at Starbase One and may be shown manoeuvring as well. How are their nacelles and impulse blocks lit?
I just BigScreened it... The nacelle tips glow, then they spring to warp... Only visible light emissions, not exhaust venting... I think the confusion with the Kelvin, is because of JJ's g0ddamned lensflare looking like an after-burner (clearest in the second of the pictures I posted)
Perhaps the effects guys didn't take Pakled Engineering 101 afterall
There's two things that appear to be happening there, the first is lense flare, the second seems to be a small flicker which is caused by the blue glow momentarily reducing. That bit there seems to indicate a drop in power after the power is diverted to the impulse engines. It happens about half a second after the impulse engines flare.
But it dosn't matter really what the warp nacelle is doing as the impulse engines also increase in intensity and flare showing that they are propelling the ship forward. So it could be the artists were glowing every engine port on the ship they could find to sudgest speed or that it's merely an unfortunate blending of lense flare and the normal blue glow of a nacelle that shines out of the rear instead of the sides.
I still think it's the latter.
Edit: I can't find a vid, but what of the other Kelvin ships? They appear ready to make the jump to warp at Starbase One and may be shown manoeuvring as well. How are their nacelles and impulse blocks lit?
I just BigScreened it... The nacelle tips glow, then they spring to warp... Only visible light emissions, not exhaust venting... I think the confusion with the Kelvin, is because of JJ's g0ddamned lensflare looking like an after-burner (clearest in the second of the pictures I posted)
Perhaps the effects guys didn't take Pakled Engineering 101 afterall
I think one thing we can all agree on:
JJ Abrams' lens flare is really frakking stupid. And annoying.
I talked to one fellow movie goer, he thought it was an "Origin" story of Kirk and crew. Explaining how they got together. Another liked it cause of the action alone. This is the response I got from regular movie fans.
This is the thing, 'as a film' it's quite watchable*, but as part of an existing franchise, it's little more than at the most generous, a pastiche; at the least, a rip-off...
*If one is prepared to overlook inconsistencies and contrivances and use a large dose of headcanon to make things plausible/make sense (ie Nero's speech patterns, I attribute to, being a miner, his education may have come from Federation pop culture, rather than classic Imperial education, so less polished, rather than just thinking that the writers couldn't write in the same precice and multi-faceted manner as other Romulans... )
Yes, a huge dose of "headcanon" is needed for the JJ trek from what I saw on the 2009. They didn't hardly explain stuff. Just enough to fill in the next spot of pew pew.
For action, it was a good movie. For a Trek movie, it was not hitting on much.
Apparently, there's a lot of other stuff explained in deleted scenes and companion comics, but ultimately, I do put it down to weak writing... As you say, good movie (well, ish) but not so as a Trek movie...
The old movies tend to explain very little, too. Why does the Enterprise suddenly have a blue glowing deflector?
Re-fit... That was pretty obvious...
But what technological reason exist for it being a dish and then turning into some glowing thing?
Why is the difference in warp effect not a sign that the nacelles are operating differently than they had before? The effect is totally different, is that even still the same FTL technology?
If some particle effect at the end of a warp engine signifies a different operating method, why wouldn't a different warp travel effect?
The visual effect is different, the effect of the nacelle (warping space) is still taking place... The nacelle is still operating as a warp nacelle, not as a rocket engine...
As for the visual difference, an episode of Babylon 5 made note that the difference in colors in each race's energy weapons, was down to regional variations in the materials creating said effect. ie a dilithium crystal from Praxis, would have slightly different properties to a dilitium crystal from Remus... Different focussing crystals in a phaser, would account for the difference in the visible color of the emitted beam (although energetically, the mechanics within the beam would be the same...)
Well, it can be easily handwaved as: "Different SFX team trying to put a new spin on things". There doesn't have to be an in-universe explanation, just as there is no in-universe explanation for the different warp effects or why the TV series Enterprise-D appears much better lit than the movie Enterprise-D.
And if you want a in-universe explanation, why can't it be that some warp nacelle manufacturers build engines with the particle/exhaust effect, and some don't?
Occam's razor suggests to use the simpler approach to explaining an observation - you seem to think that positing a different quantum reality with different physics is the simpler appraoch to explaining different style of warp nacelles than positing that both can exist in the same universe.
Precisely. My beef is with 'alternate universe' being used as a defence/justification for differences which only exist because it's what they felt like doing, rather than being more true to the original material...
And again, for the record, that was farm's theory, not mine, I just agreed that the idea had merit. I'm quite happy to just pint the finger at the effects guys and say they were more bothered about putting their own spin on things, rather than being true to the original material...
I just BigScreened it... The nacelle tips glow, then they spring to warp... Only visible light emissions, not exhaust venting... I think the confusion with the Kelvin, is because of JJ's g0ddamned lensflare looking like an after-burner (clearest in the second of the pictures I posted)
Perhaps the effects guys didn't take Pakled Engineering 101 afterall
That's fully consistent with every other series except TOS then. Blue glow signifies the use of warp power. Now can we argue about the shade of blue?....
JJ Abrams' lens flare is really frakking stupid. And annoying.
As a fan of the TAR films, I can also agree. That and the shaky cam and the stupid zooming. It is really bad cinematography that hides the visual spectacle. Yorktown is stunning because you can see the bloody thing, imagine that but filmed from a dutch angle with random zooms and a so much lense flare. Seriously, was the guy deliberately trying to hide the beautiful work the effects guys did on the models?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I hope that folks realize that when Discovery hits the TV screens, most of the debate about what's part of the Prime Universe and what isn't, will become moot...
Mr. Fuller has already stated that he is going to incorporate aspects of the movies into his show (which is most definitely set in the PRIME Universe) and the latest teaser seems to indicate just that.
Plus, he is going to attempt to use some of the actors from the JJ-Movies to represent Prime Characters as well.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I just BigScreened it... The nacelle tips glow, then they spring to warp... Only visible light emissions, not exhaust venting... I think the confusion with the Kelvin, is because of JJ's g0ddamned lensflare looking like an after-burner (clearest in the second of the pictures I posted)
Perhaps the effects guys didn't take Pakled Engineering 101 afterall
That's fully consistent with every other series except TOS then.
TOS is frankly, unreliable as a source of canon as it simply wasn't written to be thus. It's only by filtering TOS stuff through TNG/DS-9/VOY, that the 'accurate' can be filtered from the random
TOS is frankly, unreliable as a source of canon as it simply wasn't written to be thus. It's only by filtering TOS stuff through TNG/DS-9/VOY, that the 'accurate' can be filtered from the random
You'd get no argument from me there. But I suspect TOS will affect DSC in the same way it affected ENT. Fans won't be able to look past their expectations of it somehow fitting into a series that even TNG didn't bother continuing from.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
TOS is frankly, unreliable as a source of canon as it simply wasn't written to be thus. It's only by filtering TOS stuff through TNG/DS-9/VOY, that the 'accurate' can be filtered from the random
You'd get no argument from me there. But I suspect TOS will affect DSC in the same way it affected ENT. Fans won't be able to look past their expectations of it somehow fitting into a series that even TNG didn't bother continuing from.
Expecting a series to fit into the series it is a part of, and which the producers specifically chose to make it a part of, is a reasonable expectation As folks have said, we know how Starfleet looked during the time thanks to The Cage. TRIBBLE has that benchmark to aim for
TOS is frankly, unreliable as a source of canon as it simply wasn't written to be thus. It's only by filtering TOS stuff through TNG/DS-9/VOY, that the 'accurate' can be filtered from the random
You'd get no argument from me there. But I suspect TOS will affect DSC in the same way it affected ENT. Fans won't be able to look past their expectations of it somehow fitting into a series that even TNG didn't bother continuing from.
Expecting a series to fit into the series it is a part of, and which the producers specifically chose to make it a part of, is a reasonable expectation As folks have said, we know how Starfleet looked during the time thanks to The Cage. TRIBBLE has that benchmark to aim for
So it has to look as primitive as The Cage (lasers?) while looking more modern than Enterprise?
This is the thing: ANY series or film set before TOS can't be a truly accurate portrayal to what we see on-screen in TOS because Braga & co so greatly screwed up the tech in Enterprise. Either way, this new show is going to have to disregard large technological aspects of TOS to keep in line with ENT and provide a show which can use modern show-making technology. The best they can do is to capture the 'feel' of TOS.
And before anyone lights that stake-pile, it shouldn't be very difficult at all to figure out what TOS-tech is complete nonsense - TNG did half that job for us. The rest is figuring out how much contradicts ENT, how much is plausible enough to keep, and where we can justify the disparities (for example, 'lasers' = 'phase pistols').
I'd personally like to see a uniform which combines the utilitarian functionalities of the Cage uniforms and the ENT uniforms.
There's two things that appear to be happening there, the first is lense flare, the second seems to be a small flicker which is caused by the blue glow momentarily reducing. That bit there seems to indicate a drop in power after the power is diverted to the impulse engines. It happens about half a second after the impulse engines flare.
But it dosn't matter really what the warp nacelle is doing as the impulse engines also increase in intensity and flare showing that they are propelling the ship forward. So it could be the artists were glowing every engine port on the ship they could find to sudgest speed or that it's merely an unfortunate blending of lense flare and the normal blue glow of a nacelle that shines out of the rear instead of the sides.
I still think it's the latter.
Edit: I can't find a vid, but what of the other Kelvin ships? They appear ready to make the jump to warp at Starbase One and may be shown manoeuvring as well. How are their nacelles and impulse blocks lit?
I just BigScreened it... The nacelle tips glow, then they spring to warp... Only visible light emissions, not exhaust venting... I think the confusion with the Kelvin, is because of JJ's g0ddamned lensflare looking like an after-burner (clearest in the second of the pictures I posted)
Perhaps the effects guys didn't take Pakled Engineering 101 afterall
I think one thing we can all agree on:
JJ Abrams' lens flare is really frakking stupid. And annoying.
I'm sorry I missed your post... Absolutely, there's a time and a place for lens flare, and JJ knows neither the time nor the place
TOS is frankly, unreliable as a source of canon as it simply wasn't written to be thus. It's only by filtering TOS stuff through TNG/DS-9/VOY, that the 'accurate' can be filtered from the random
You'd get no argument from me there. But I suspect TOS will affect DSC in the same way it affected ENT. Fans won't be able to look past their expectations of it somehow fitting into a series that even TNG didn't bother continuing from.
Expecting a series to fit into the series it is a part of, and which the producers specifically chose to make it a part of, is a reasonable expectation As folks have said, we know how Starfleet looked during the time thanks to The Cage. TRIBBLE has that benchmark to aim for
So it has to look as primitive as The Cage (lasers?) while looking more modern than Enterprise?
This is the thing: ANY series or film set before TOS can't be a truly accurate portrayal to what we see on-screen in TOS because Braga & co so greatly screwed up the tech in Enterprise. Either way, this new show is going to have to disregard large technological aspects of TOS to keep in line with ENT and provide a show which can use modern show-making technology. The best they can do is to capture the 'feel' of TOS.
And before anyone lights that stake-pile, it shouldn't be very difficult at all to figure out what TOS-tech is complete nonsense - TNG did half that job for us. The rest is figuring out how much contradicts ENT, how much is plausible enough to keep, and where we can justify the disparities (for example, 'lasers' = 'phase pistols').
I'd personally like to see a uniform which combines the utilitarian functionalities of the Cage uniforms and the ENT uniforms.
In a nutshell, yes...
I watched an advert a while ago, I think it was for house insurance or some such, which had a retro-styled robot 'doing some stuff'. One of the things it did, was to project 3-D holograms from its eyes. It was a huge incongruity to see such an old-fashioned robot doing such a more recent/futuristic concept, but I absolutely loved it, and thought "why couldn't such a robot be able to do such a thing...?"
If TRIBBLE was to use Cage-era tech, all it would have to do, would be to 'update the presentation'. Something like Kirk's 'black wedge' could be shown as having a shifting touch-display, for example. The OutofVerse explaination for the appearance of Klingons shifting between TOS and TMP, was that that (TMP) was how they were always supposed to have looked, but the TV budget never stretched that far. Of course, ENT gave a reason for that difference, which, stupid or not, is now the canon explanation...
All TRIBBLE would have to do, is to show that the time period of ENT was 'contaminated' by the temporal cold war, and it could be argued that anything seen in TRIBBLE (which is more in keeping with the Cage) is simply a restored or untampered time period (essentially, ENT could be wiped from canon, and something restoring more to 'the correct look' could be in place as a restoration
While it isn't relevant for canon it may shed some light on the issue: Use "Emergency Powers to Engines" in STO. Look at what happens - your nacelles will glow and power will be diverted to the impulse engines (there's the animation overlay suggesting that). Could something like this have happened here? Who knows...
The nacelles and impulse drive are 2 total separate units. They do not share the same systems. Even the thrusters are not shared with those.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Agreed. I remember getting confused in TWoK because the dropping shields scene seemed to suggest that the Enterprise had a few dozen shield generators that would go offline one at a time.
Here is what Memory Alpha says about it.
Deflector shields operated by creating a layer, or layers, of energetic distortion containing a high concentration of gravitons around the object to be protected. On starships, the shield contained six sections, forward, starboard, port, aft, dorsal, and ventral. (Star Trek Nemesis) Shield energies could be emitted from a localized antenna or "dish", such as a ship's navigational deflector, or from a network of "grid" emitters laid out on the object's surface, such as a starship's hull. Since at least the 23rd century, deflector shields were essential equipment on starships.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
I hope that folks realize that when Discovery hits the TV screens, most of the debate about what's part of the Prime Universe and what isn't, will become moot...
Mr. Fuller has already stated that he is going to incorporate aspects of the movies into his show (which is most definitely set in the PRIME Universe) and the latest teaser seems to indicate just that.
Plus, he is going to attempt to use some of the actors from the JJ-Movies to represent Prime Characters as well.
There's two things that appear to be happening there, the first is lense flare, the second seems to be a small flicker which is caused by the blue glow momentarily reducing. That bit there seems to indicate a drop in power after the power is diverted to the impulse engines. It happens about half a second after the impulse engines flare.
But it dosn't matter really what the warp nacelle is doing as the impulse engines also increase in intensity and flare showing that they are propelling the ship forward. So it could be the artists were glowing every engine port on the ship they could find to sudgest speed or that it's merely an unfortunate blending of lense flare and the normal blue glow of a nacelle that shines out of the rear instead of the sides.
I still think it's the latter.
Edit: I can't find a vid, but what of the other Kelvin ships? They appear ready to make the jump to warp at Starbase One and may be shown manoeuvring as well. How are their nacelles and impulse blocks lit?
I just BigScreened it... The nacelle tips glow, then they spring to warp... Only visible light emissions, not exhaust venting... I think the confusion with the Kelvin, is because of JJ's g0ddamned lensflare looking like an after-burner (clearest in the second of the pictures I posted)
Perhaps the effects guys didn't take Pakled Engineering 101 afterall
I think one thing we can all agree on:
JJ Abrams' lens flare is really frakking stupid. And annoying.
I'm sorry I missed your post... Absolutely, there's a time and a place for lens flare, and JJ knows neither the time nor the place
TOS is frankly, unreliable as a source of canon as it simply wasn't written to be thus. It's only by filtering TOS stuff through TNG/DS-9/VOY, that the 'accurate' can be filtered from the random
You'd get no argument from me there. But I suspect TOS will affect DSC in the same way it affected ENT. Fans won't be able to look past their expectations of it somehow fitting into a series that even TNG didn't bother continuing from.
Expecting a series to fit into the series it is a part of, and which the producers specifically chose to make it a part of, is a reasonable expectation As folks have said, we know how Starfleet looked during the time thanks to The Cage. TRIBBLE has that benchmark to aim for
So it has to look as primitive as The Cage (lasers?) while looking more modern than Enterprise?
This is the thing: ANY series or film set before TOS can't be a truly accurate portrayal to what we see on-screen in TOS because Braga & co so greatly screwed up the tech in Enterprise. Either way, this new show is going to have to disregard large technological aspects of TOS to keep in line with ENT and provide a show which can use modern show-making technology. The best they can do is to capture the 'feel' of TOS.
And before anyone lights that stake-pile, it shouldn't be very difficult at all to figure out what TOS-tech is complete nonsense - TNG did half that job for us. The rest is figuring out how much contradicts ENT, how much is plausible enough to keep, and where we can justify the disparities (for example, 'lasers' = 'phase pistols').
I'd personally like to see a uniform which combines the utilitarian functionalities of the Cage uniforms and the ENT uniforms.
In a nutshell, yes...
I watched an advert a while ago, I think it was for house insurance or some such, which had a retro-styled robot 'doing some stuff'. One of the things it did, was to project 3-D holograms from its eyes. It was a huge incongruity to see such an old-fashioned robot doing such a more recent/futuristic concept, but I absolutely loved it, and thought "why couldn't such a robot be able to do such a thing...?"
If TRIBBLE was to use Cage-era tech, all it would have to do, would be to 'update the presentation'. Something like Kirk's 'black wedge' could be shown as having a shifting touch-display, for example. The OutofVerse explaination for the appearance of Klingons shifting between TOS and TMP, was that that (TMP) was how they were always supposed to have looked, but the TV budget never stretched that far. Of course, ENT gave a reason for that difference, which, stupid or not, is now the canon explanation...
All TRIBBLE would have to do, is to show that the time period of ENT was 'contaminated' by the temporal cold war, and it could be argued that anything seen in TRIBBLE (which is more in keeping with the Cage) is simply a restored or untampered time period (essentially, ENT could be wiped from canon, and something restoring more to 'the correct look' could be in place as a restoration
Just because something is stupid or ill-conceived doesn't mean it should be struck from canon completely. There are many (myself included) who enjoyed Enterprise. You can't wipe an entire series from canon just because aspects of it broke continuity. If we followed that logic, TNG wouldn't be canon because it changed things from TOS. TOS is a very flawed show in terms of its own continuity, which is why I made my points in the original post. Let's face it, if you struck half the episodes from TOS from canon (cough, Spock's Brain, cough) it would vastly improve the internal continuity of the series.
This is the problem: it's difficult to argue on the side of preserving continuity with a show which regularly violated its own continuity. It's like building a house on shoddy foundations. What made TOS great wasn't its tech or even its continuity, it was the 'feel' of the show. If DSC manages to capture that feel, then IMO they get a little license with the technological standards based on a show which didn't obey its own technological continuity 50% of the time anyway. In contrast, Enterprise did maintain its own internal continuity. I don't care if DSC takes creative license and skips Cage-era tech (given that tech is ditched completely after one episode) so long as they capture the aesthetic and 'feel' of the period.
To put it another way, you're asking to ditch gems like the Augment arc and Unity p1&2 in favour of preserving the sanctity of stinkers like Spock's Brain. ;p In terms of violating canon and continuity, I'd say there's more justification for wiping TOS(!) than any other Trek show. All the Trek shows had terrible episodes which broke canon in some way, but if we wiped them all from canon, we wouldn't have a canon left!
EDIT: I've actually got a better analogy. You're asking to wipe more than 80 episodes from canon to preserve 1 (O - N - E) episode from TOS which had absolutely no effect in continuity on the rest of the series save one other episode.
There's two things that appear to be happening there, the first is lense flare, the second seems to be a small flicker which is caused by the blue glow momentarily reducing. That bit there seems to indicate a drop in power after the power is diverted to the impulse engines. It happens about half a second after the impulse engines flare.
But it dosn't matter really what the warp nacelle is doing as the impulse engines also increase in intensity and flare showing that they are propelling the ship forward. So it could be the artists were glowing every engine port on the ship they could find to sudgest speed or that it's merely an unfortunate blending of lense flare and the normal blue glow of a nacelle that shines out of the rear instead of the sides.
I still think it's the latter.
Edit: I can't find a vid, but what of the other Kelvin ships? They appear ready to make the jump to warp at Starbase One and may be shown manoeuvring as well. How are their nacelles and impulse blocks lit?
I just BigScreened it... The nacelle tips glow, then they spring to warp... Only visible light emissions, not exhaust venting... I think the confusion with the Kelvin, is because of JJ's g0ddamned lensflare looking like an after-burner (clearest in the second of the pictures I posted)
Perhaps the effects guys didn't take Pakled Engineering 101 afterall
I think one thing we can all agree on:
JJ Abrams' lens flare is really frakking stupid. And annoying.
I'm sorry I missed your post... Absolutely, there's a time and a place for lens flare, and JJ knows neither the time nor the place
TOS is frankly, unreliable as a source of canon as it simply wasn't written to be thus. It's only by filtering TOS stuff through TNG/DS-9/VOY, that the 'accurate' can be filtered from the random
You'd get no argument from me there. But I suspect TOS will affect DSC in the same way it affected ENT. Fans won't be able to look past their expectations of it somehow fitting into a series that even TNG didn't bother continuing from.
Expecting a series to fit into the series it is a part of, and which the producers specifically chose to make it a part of, is a reasonable expectation As folks have said, we know how Starfleet looked during the time thanks to The Cage. TRIBBLE has that benchmark to aim for
So it has to look as primitive as The Cage (lasers?) while looking more modern than Enterprise?
This is the thing: ANY series or film set before TOS can't be a truly accurate portrayal to what we see on-screen in TOS because Braga & co so greatly screwed up the tech in Enterprise. Either way, this new show is going to have to disregard large technological aspects of TOS to keep in line with ENT and provide a show which can use modern show-making technology. The best they can do is to capture the 'feel' of TOS.
And before anyone lights that stake-pile, it shouldn't be very difficult at all to figure out what TOS-tech is complete nonsense - TNG did half that job for us. The rest is figuring out how much contradicts ENT, how much is plausible enough to keep, and where we can justify the disparities (for example, 'lasers' = 'phase pistols').
I'd personally like to see a uniform which combines the utilitarian functionalities of the Cage uniforms and the ENT uniforms.
In a nutshell, yes...
I watched an advert a while ago, I think it was for house insurance or some such, which had a retro-styled robot 'doing some stuff'. One of the things it did, was to project 3-D holograms from its eyes. It was a huge incongruity to see such an old-fashioned robot doing such a more recent/futuristic concept, but I absolutely loved it, and thought "why couldn't such a robot be able to do such a thing...?"
If TRIBBLE was to use Cage-era tech, all it would have to do, would be to 'update the presentation'. Something like Kirk's 'black wedge' could be shown as having a shifting touch-display, for example. The OutofVerse explaination for the appearance of Klingons shifting between TOS and TMP, was that that (TMP) was how they were always supposed to have looked, but the TV budget never stretched that far. Of course, ENT gave a reason for that difference, which, stupid or not, is now the canon explanation...
All TRIBBLE would have to do, is to show that the time period of ENT was 'contaminated' by the temporal cold war, and it could be argued that anything seen in TRIBBLE (which is more in keeping with the Cage) is simply a restored or untampered time period (essentially, ENT could be wiped from canon, and something restoring more to 'the correct look' could be in place as a restoration
Just because something is stupid or ill-conceived doesn't mean it should be struck from canon completely. There are many (myself included) who enjoyed Enterprise. You can't wipe an entire series from canon just because aspects of it broke continuity. If we followed that logic, TNG wouldn't be canon because it changed things from TOS. TOS is a very flawed show in terms of its own continuity, which is why I made my points in the original post. Let's face it, if you struck half the episodes from TOS from canon (cough, Spock's Brain, cough) it would vastly improve the internal continuity of the series.
This is the problem: it's difficult to argue on the side of preserving continuity with a show which regularly violated its own continuity. It's like building a house on shoddy foundations. What made TOS great wasn't its tech or even its continuity, it was the 'feel' of the show. If DSC manages to capture that feel, then IMO they get a little license with the technological standards based on a show which didn't obey its own technological continuity 50% of the time anyway. In contrast, Enterprise did maintain its own internal continuity. I don't care if DSC takes creative license and skips Cage-era tech (given that tech is ditched completely after one episode) so long as they capture the aesthetic and 'feel' of the period.
To put it another way, you're asking to ditch gems like the Augment arc and Unity p1&2 in favour of preserving the sanctity of stinkers like Spock's Brain. ;p In terms of violating canon and continuity, I'd say there's more justification for wiping TOS(!) than any other Trek show. All the Trek shows had terrible episodes which broke canon in some way, but if we wiped them all from canon, we wouldn't have a canon left!
They already told for TRIBBLE, they are going the Enterprise series route. They want to use 2016 ideas. Issue is not to get too far advance so it would stick out too much.
Then again, TRIBBLE won't matter much. As their viewing numbers will be low. As double dipping into people's wallets won't help on that. I know I won't watch it at all. I don't feel like feeding greedy pigs.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
There's two things that appear to be happening there, the first is lense flare, the second seems to be a small flicker which is caused by the blue glow momentarily reducing. That bit there seems to indicate a drop in power after the power is diverted to the impulse engines. It happens about half a second after the impulse engines flare.
But it dosn't matter really what the warp nacelle is doing as the impulse engines also increase in intensity and flare showing that they are propelling the ship forward. So it could be the artists were glowing every engine port on the ship they could find to sudgest speed or that it's merely an unfortunate blending of lense flare and the normal blue glow of a nacelle that shines out of the rear instead of the sides.
I still think it's the latter.
Edit: I can't find a vid, but what of the other Kelvin ships? They appear ready to make the jump to warp at Starbase One and may be shown manoeuvring as well. How are their nacelles and impulse blocks lit?
I just BigScreened it... The nacelle tips glow, then they spring to warp... Only visible light emissions, not exhaust venting... I think the confusion with the Kelvin, is because of JJ's g0ddamned lensflare looking like an after-burner (clearest in the second of the pictures I posted)
Perhaps the effects guys didn't take Pakled Engineering 101 afterall
I think one thing we can all agree on:
JJ Abrams' lens flare is really frakking stupid. And annoying.
I'm sorry I missed your post... Absolutely, there's a time and a place for lens flare, and JJ knows neither the time nor the place
TOS is frankly, unreliable as a source of canon as it simply wasn't written to be thus. It's only by filtering TOS stuff through TNG/DS-9/VOY, that the 'accurate' can be filtered from the random
You'd get no argument from me there. But I suspect TOS will affect DSC in the same way it affected ENT. Fans won't be able to look past their expectations of it somehow fitting into a series that even TNG didn't bother continuing from.
Expecting a series to fit into the series it is a part of, and which the producers specifically chose to make it a part of, is a reasonable expectation As folks have said, we know how Starfleet looked during the time thanks to The Cage. TRIBBLE has that benchmark to aim for
So it has to look as primitive as The Cage (lasers?) while looking more modern than Enterprise?
This is the thing: ANY series or film set before TOS can't be a truly accurate portrayal to what we see on-screen in TOS because Braga & co so greatly screwed up the tech in Enterprise. Either way, this new show is going to have to disregard large technological aspects of TOS to keep in line with ENT and provide a show which can use modern show-making technology. The best they can do is to capture the 'feel' of TOS.
And before anyone lights that stake-pile, it shouldn't be very difficult at all to figure out what TOS-tech is complete nonsense - TNG did half that job for us. The rest is figuring out how much contradicts ENT, how much is plausible enough to keep, and where we can justify the disparities (for example, 'lasers' = 'phase pistols').
I'd personally like to see a uniform which combines the utilitarian functionalities of the Cage uniforms and the ENT uniforms.
In a nutshell, yes...
I watched an advert a while ago, I think it was for house insurance or some such, which had a retro-styled robot 'doing some stuff'. One of the things it did, was to project 3-D holograms from its eyes. It was a huge incongruity to see such an old-fashioned robot doing such a more recent/futuristic concept, but I absolutely loved it, and thought "why couldn't such a robot be able to do such a thing...?"
If TRIBBLE was to use Cage-era tech, all it would have to do, would be to 'update the presentation'. Something like Kirk's 'black wedge' could be shown as having a shifting touch-display, for example. The OutofVerse explaination for the appearance of Klingons shifting between TOS and TMP, was that that (TMP) was how they were always supposed to have looked, but the TV budget never stretched that far. Of course, ENT gave a reason for that difference, which, stupid or not, is now the canon explanation...
All TRIBBLE would have to do, is to show that the time period of ENT was 'contaminated' by the temporal cold war, and it could be argued that anything seen in TRIBBLE (which is more in keeping with the Cage) is simply a restored or untampered time period (essentially, ENT could be wiped from canon, and something restoring more to 'the correct look' could be in place as a restoration
Just because something is stupid or ill-conceived doesn't mean it should be struck from canon completely. There are many (myself included) who enjoyed Enterprise. You can't wipe an entire series from canon just because aspects of it broke continuity. If we followed that logic, TNG wouldn't be canon because it changed things from TOS. TOS is a very flawed show in terms of its own continuity, which is why I made my points in the original post. Let's face it, if you struck half the episodes from TOS from canon (cough, Spock's Brain, cough) it would vastly improve the internal continuity of the series.
This is the problem: it's difficult to argue on the side of preserving continuity with a show which regularly violated its own continuity. It's like building a house on shoddy foundations. What made TOS great wasn't its tech or even its continuity, it was the 'feel' of the show. If DSC manages to capture that feel, then IMO they get a little license with the technological standards based on a show which didn't obey its own technological continuity 50% of the time anyway. In contrast, Enterprise did maintain its own internal continuity. I don't care if DSC takes creative license and skips Cage-era tech (given that tech is ditched completely after one episode) so long as they capture the aesthetic and 'feel' of the period.
To put it another way, you're asking to ditch gems like the Augment arc and Unity p1&2 in favour of preserving the sanctity of stinkers like Spock's Brain. ;p In terms of violating canon and continuity, I'd say there's more justification for wiping TOS(!) than any other Trek show. All the Trek shows had terrible episodes which broke canon in some way, but if we wiped them all from canon, we wouldn't have a canon left!
Maybe 'wiped from canon' came over a bit strong... But what they need to do, is to work in a way which shows history moving toward the look and style of TOS, rather than the way of the Kelvin Timeline... I forget the exact quote, but in Trials and Tribbelations, Dax said something about the styles of the era being considered iconic, so they really need to be showing a time where that time is clearly still going to occur. Personally speaking, I think they've shot themselves in the foot, unless they intend being anything other than true to what was seen in The Cage. Although I've never watched an episode of Madmen as it never took my fancy, I've heard that their accuracy to detail even extends as far as matching the weather on a specific day O_O That's the kind of stringency which I think TRIBBLE needs to strive for...
Maybe low viewership will convince them to show it on TV or get a deal with Netflix. Maybe as a compromise show the episode first on All Access, then release it a week later on Netflix if they wanna get stingy about it.
Comments
But that's not how it works in reality. Real design bureaus have different personnel handling different functions. To get the kind of departure we seen between the KT Connie and the Prime Connie, we'd need for the designers in charge of the warp drive, hull construction and tactical systems to be aboard the Kelvin, at least. That would be one heck of a coincidence (especially alongside Nero appearing just as Kirk's about to be born).
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Ok... this debate is going crazy. I think we've gone beyond splitting hairs to splitting the slip hairs into microscopic portions.
Noticed it wasn't one large piece, it was like 4-6 canisters.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Probably because Kirk has no idea what he's on about when he said 'jettison the core' And Scotty thought it was easier to say 'aye sir' and proceed with jettisoning the coolant tanks or whatever they were. Imagine how impressed Kirk would be with Scotty's miracle that the ship can still warp without its core.
I'm now going to address a few points because it's hard to be bothered to reply to the same re-treaded arguments peddled out over and over again even after they've been debunked time and time again.
Deflector
The Kelvin's deflector is a a solid bronze/grey colour with a blue backlight similar to the NX. It is not all light as @farmallm keeps saying.
Engines
The Kelvin's impulse engines flare when it starts it's suicide run. It's using impulse power, the fact that it's nacelle also lights up is immaterial. It's flaring in the same way the blue grills on other nacelles would flare when warp power was being diverted to a different subsystem.
Crew
Pike says that George Kirk saved over 800 lives (or something to that effect) not that all were members of the crew. It could have being making a colony drop for all we can tell. That would also explain why there were so few shuttles for 800 people.
Size
There is little in the way or reliable consensus on the sizes of certain ships in the AR films (with only the Franklin maybe having a unargued size)
But the best estimates using canon material (the onscreen evidence) produces a size of ~300m. Which, as can be seen below, gives the saucer and secondary hull a very comparable volume to that of the TOS Conni. The Kelvin lacks a neck but has a slightly longer saucer so the volume remains very similar.
Interiors
The Shuttlebay of the Kelvin wouldn't look out of place in the NX. It's vaulted and realistic. The only difference is that it's designed with real materials in mind (i.e. metal) and has detailing expected of reality (i.e. hazard stripes etc.)
The styling and design of the bay is not 'wrong' for ST merely styled with a different aesthetic (industrial in this case) ENT has a sterile military look, TOS had a primary coloured cardboard look, TMP had chrome and beige etc.
There are other sets that represent the same thing. The vaulted, multi-leveled engineering for instance, highly reminiscent of the TMP one but with an industrial aesthetic and not a chrome one.
Bridge
If you're looking at the Bridge of the Kelvin and not seeing a fusion of ENT and the TOS films then you're looking at the wrong bridge.
Window
Present on the, NX pre-dating, Franklin.
And finally...
Age
The Kelvin line of ships (i.e. ships of the same age and design lineage) of the Kelvin, Kobayashi Maru, Newton, Mayflower, Armstrong, and Excelsior, all form a distinct family that predates TOS by a minimum of 6 years and an unknowable maximum (2230-2240). The TNG line Galaxy (2357) predates the DS9 line Defiant (2370) a mere 13 years, the TMP line of ships are a minimum of 6 years ahead of the TOS line of ships.
As a result we often get scenes with multiple lines of ships (TMP, TNG, and DS9 in this instance) together and they really do not look similar at all. Trying to claim the Kelvin era ships should look like TOS era ships is just plain daft.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
The old movies tend to explain very little, too. Why does the Enterprise suddenly have a blue glowing deflector? (Heck, we don't even know it's called Deflector, I think, or what it does.) Why does the Sovereign have a yellow deflector instead?
The Warp effects are different between the TOS and the TNG movies. Why are shields sometimes skintight and sometimes bubbles?
I think all this stuff doesn't really need to be explained in a movie. Too much exposition for no gain.
My character Tsin'xing
Well it's a brand new ship, so why not? One may as well ask why Picard's ready room had maroon walls...
Indeed they are, and that can be put down to people putting their own touch to the effects. But as I mentioned upthread, the difference in the warp effect was not a sign of the nacelles operating differently than they had before
It's been a while since I read the technical manual (and I don't have it to hand to check) but I'm sure it mentions both skintight and bubble shields...
Absolutely, it doesn't necessarily need to be explained, it just needs to be done right in the first place, not handwaved away by 'alternate reality' any time someone raises a legitimate point
But this one is still suspicious...
I'm willing to accept it as flaring, but I'm still not 100% that they weren't thinking 'thruster'...
But it dosn't matter really what the warp nacelle is doing as the impulse engines also increase in intensity and flare showing that they are propelling the ship forward. So it could be the artists were glowing every engine port on the ship they could find to sudgest speed or that it's merely an unfortunate blending of lense flare and the normal blue glow of a nacelle that shines out of the rear instead of the sides.
I still think it's the latter.
Edit: I can't find a vid, but what of the other Kelvin ships? They appear ready to make the jump to warp at Starbase One and may be shown manoeuvring as well. How are their nacelles and impulse blocks lit?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Why is the difference in warp effect not a sign that the nacelles are operating differently than they had before? The effect is totally different, is that even still the same FTL technology?
If some particle effect at the end of a warp engine signifies a different operating method, why wouldn't a different warp travel effect?
So if Paramount prints a technical manual that explains the existence of warp nacelles with and without particle effects/exhausts, it's all good, too?
Well, it can be easily handwaved as: "Different SFX team trying to put a new spin on things". There doesn't have to be an in-universe explanation, just as there is no in-universe explanation for the different warp effects or why the TV series Enterprise-D appears much better lit than the movie Enterprise-D.
And if you want a in-universe explanation, why can't it be that some warp nacelle manufacturers build engines with the particle/exhaust effect, and some don't?
Occam's razor suggests to use the simpler approach to explaining an observation - you seem to think that positing a different quantum reality with different physics is the simpler appraoch to explaining different style of warp nacelles than positing that both can exist in the same universe.
I personally love the new Star Trek movies.
In fact, the only reason I prefer something like Voyager over it, is because I have 7 seasons of Voyager to watch when I want to.
Perhaps the effects guys didn't take Pakled Engineering 101 afterall
I think one thing we can all agree on:
JJ Abrams' lens flare is really frakking stupid. And annoying.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
The visual effect is different, the effect of the nacelle (warping space) is still taking place... The nacelle is still operating as a warp nacelle, not as a rocket engine...
As for the visual difference, an episode of Babylon 5 made note that the difference in colors in each race's energy weapons, was down to regional variations in the materials creating said effect. ie a dilithium crystal from Praxis, would have slightly different properties to a dilitium crystal from Remus... Different focussing crystals in a phaser, would account for the difference in the visible color of the emitted beam (although energetically, the mechanics within the beam would be the same...)
Yup... And hopefully they'd then get their writers to use that as their writer's bible
Precisely. My beef is with 'alternate universe' being used as a defence/justification for differences which only exist because it's what they felt like doing, rather than being more true to the original material...
And again, for the record, that was farm's theory, not mine, I just agreed that the idea had merit. I'm quite happy to just pint the finger at the effects guys and say they were more bothered about putting their own spin on things, rather than being true to the original material...
That's fully consistent with every other series except TOS then. Blue glow signifies the use of warp power. Now can we argue about the shade of blue?....
As a fan of the TAR films, I can also agree. That and the shaky cam and the stupid zooming. It is really bad cinematography that hides the visual spectacle. Yorktown is stunning because you can see the bloody thing, imagine that but filmed from a dutch angle with random zooms and a so much lense flare. Seriously, was the guy deliberately trying to hide the beautiful work the effects guys did on the models?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Mr. Fuller has already stated that he is going to incorporate aspects of the movies into his show (which is most definitely set in the PRIME Universe) and the latest teaser seems to indicate just that.
Plus, he is going to attempt to use some of the actors from the JJ-Movies to represent Prime Characters as well.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
"If it's not the blue of my ale, then you're tuning it wrong!" - Ael t'Kazanak
You'd get no argument from me there. But I suspect TOS will affect DSC in the same way it affected ENT. Fans won't be able to look past their expectations of it somehow fitting into a series that even TNG didn't bother continuing from.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
So it has to look as primitive as The Cage (lasers?) while looking more modern than Enterprise?
This is the thing: ANY series or film set before TOS can't be a truly accurate portrayal to what we see on-screen in TOS because Braga & co so greatly screwed up the tech in Enterprise. Either way, this new show is going to have to disregard large technological aspects of TOS to keep in line with ENT and provide a show which can use modern show-making technology. The best they can do is to capture the 'feel' of TOS.
And before anyone lights that stake-pile, it shouldn't be very difficult at all to figure out what TOS-tech is complete nonsense - TNG did half that job for us. The rest is figuring out how much contradicts ENT, how much is plausible enough to keep, and where we can justify the disparities (for example, 'lasers' = 'phase pistols').
I'd personally like to see a uniform which combines the utilitarian functionalities of the Cage uniforms and the ENT uniforms.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
In a nutshell, yes...
I watched an advert a while ago, I think it was for house insurance or some such, which had a retro-styled robot 'doing some stuff'. One of the things it did, was to project 3-D holograms from its eyes. It was a huge incongruity to see such an old-fashioned robot doing such a more recent/futuristic concept, but I absolutely loved it, and thought "why couldn't such a robot be able to do such a thing...?"
If TRIBBLE was to use Cage-era tech, all it would have to do, would be to 'update the presentation'. Something like Kirk's 'black wedge' could be shown as having a shifting touch-display, for example. The OutofVerse explaination for the appearance of Klingons shifting between TOS and TMP, was that that (TMP) was how they were always supposed to have looked, but the TV budget never stretched that far. Of course, ENT gave a reason for that difference, which, stupid or not, is now the canon explanation...
All TRIBBLE would have to do, is to show that the time period of ENT was 'contaminated' by the temporal cold war, and it could be argued that anything seen in TRIBBLE (which is more in keeping with the Cage) is simply a restored or untampered time period (essentially, ENT could be wiped from canon, and something restoring more to 'the correct look' could be in place as a restoration
The nacelles and impulse drive are 2 total separate units. They do not share the same systems. Even the thrusters are not shared with those.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Here is what Memory Alpha says about it.
Deflector shields operated by creating a layer, or layers, of energetic distortion containing a high concentration of gravitons around the object to be protected. On starships, the shield contained six sections, forward, starboard, port, aft, dorsal, and ventral. (Star Trek Nemesis) Shield energies could be emitted from a localized antenna or "dish", such as a ship's navigational deflector, or from a network of "grid" emitters laid out on the object's surface, such as a starship's hull. Since at least the 23rd century, deflector shields were essential equipment on starships.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Incorrect.
http://screenrant.com/star-trek-discovery-everything-we-know/
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Just because something is stupid or ill-conceived doesn't mean it should be struck from canon completely. There are many (myself included) who enjoyed Enterprise. You can't wipe an entire series from canon just because aspects of it broke continuity. If we followed that logic, TNG wouldn't be canon because it changed things from TOS. TOS is a very flawed show in terms of its own continuity, which is why I made my points in the original post. Let's face it, if you struck half the episodes from TOS from canon (cough, Spock's Brain, cough) it would vastly improve the internal continuity of the series.
This is the problem: it's difficult to argue on the side of preserving continuity with a show which regularly violated its own continuity. It's like building a house on shoddy foundations. What made TOS great wasn't its tech or even its continuity, it was the 'feel' of the show. If DSC manages to capture that feel, then IMO they get a little license with the technological standards based on a show which didn't obey its own technological continuity 50% of the time anyway. In contrast, Enterprise did maintain its own internal continuity. I don't care if DSC takes creative license and skips Cage-era tech (given that tech is ditched completely after one episode) so long as they capture the aesthetic and 'feel' of the period.
To put it another way, you're asking to ditch gems like the Augment arc and Unity p1&2 in favour of preserving the sanctity of stinkers like Spock's Brain. ;p In terms of violating canon and continuity, I'd say there's more justification for wiping TOS(!) than any other Trek show. All the Trek shows had terrible episodes which broke canon in some way, but if we wiped them all from canon, we wouldn't have a canon left!
EDIT: I've actually got a better analogy. You're asking to wipe more than 80 episodes from canon to preserve 1 (O - N - E) episode from TOS which had absolutely no effect in continuity on the rest of the series save one other episode.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
They already told for TRIBBLE, they are going the Enterprise series route. They want to use 2016 ideas. Issue is not to get too far advance so it would stick out too much.
Then again, TRIBBLE won't matter much. As their viewing numbers will be low. As double dipping into people's wallets won't help on that. I know I won't watch it at all. I don't feel like feeding greedy pigs.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.