A Proposal for Cannons

I've been thinking a lot about BFAW, A2B, DPS, etc. lately as I've been trying out the technical side of DPS a bit more. I've also been paying attention more to PUGs and thinking about the issues that have resulted in making BFAW popular on escorts.

While, sure, BFAW is powerful, I think the skill demands of BOff management plus piloting are a bit demanding and, really, that keybinding is intuitive for a large number of players.

So I'll cut to the chase:

Piloting an escort at full throttle results in DPS dips when you turn around and requires more focus than firing beams.

I suggest:

- Turning cannon abilities into toggles rather than click abilities.
- Reducing the cooldown for these abilities (without reducing the GCD) to discourage A2B builds on ships with cannons while supplying some of the benefits of A2B inherently.

If cannons ran at the global cooldown for their own abilities, they wouldn't be worth running A2B with. If their attacks were "always on", escort pilots would focus on piloting.

Now, one other thing I'd consider is to actually reduce what the CD and GCD is for certain abilities based on ship class. There currently are no GCD reductions but if ship class could modify this and CDs as well for SPECIFIC ABILITIES, you'd see more specialization.

Destroyers: Reduction in Attack Pattern and Debuff cooldowns (and global cooldown reduction).
Science: Reduction in exotic damage and shield heal cooldowns (and global cooldown).
Escorts: Reduction in cannon upgrade and cooldowns (and global cooldowns).
Cruisers: Reduction in torpedo and beam cooldowns.
Battle Cruisers: Reduction in torpedo and cannon cooldowns.

Additionally, maybe give each ship class a subsystem specific flow capacitor mod that matches what they already get bonus power to and a flow capacitor penalty to subsystems their class doesn't ordinarily get bonus power to. So if you run plasmonic leech on an escort, sure, your weapon power is maxed out but your shields won't QUITE be. If you run it on a cruiser, your weapon power won't be QUITE maxed out but your engine power will be.
«1

Comments

  • hyefather
    hyefather Member Posts: 1,286 Arc User
    I don't know if you got the memo but A2B is dead. Starship traits took care of it and IMO it was good to see it go. Now the other comments on cannon abilitys thats a whole diffrent can of worms I'm not getting into right now.
  • hugin1205
    hugin1205 Member Posts: 489 Arc User
    still using aux2bat on toons, so it isn't dead - but the high DPSers don't use it.
    But my max (61k) still was done with aux2bat, aegis set and some other "don't"s
    18 characters
    KDF: 2 tacs, 2 engs, 3 scis
    KDF Roms: 3 tacs, 1 eng, 1 scis
    FED: 2 tacs, 1 eng, 2 scis
    TOS: 1 tac
    all on T5 rep (up to temporal)
    all have mastered Intel tree (and some more specs Points)
    highest DPS: 60.982
  • ssbn655
    ssbn655 Member Posts: 1,894 Arc User
    Sounds like someone doesn't like that cannons got some love with the fix to the drop off.
  • asuran14
    asuran14 Member Posts: 2,326 Arc User
    I personally would just not mind seeing dual cannons getting increased in their firing arc from 45 degrees to something like 75-90 degrees. Which would make them more viable to run on the slower cruisers that can use dual cannons yet are too slow turning for dual heavies, while also giving dual cannons a more distinct area they excel in compared to dual heavy cannons.
  • echatty
    echatty Member Posts: 5,718 Arc User
    asuran14 wrote: »
    I personally would just not mind seeing dual cannons getting increased in their firing arc from 45 degrees to something like 75-90 degrees. Which would make them more viable to run on the slower cruisers that can use dual cannons yet are too slow turning for dual heavies, while also giving dual cannons a more distinct area they excel in compared to dual heavy cannons.

    Yes, this. Single cannons have a 180 degree arc, why can't dual cannons have a 90 degree arc? I'd use them on some of my cruisers then.
    Now a LTS and loving it.

    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.

    xp8s7wd.jpg
  • stumpfgobs
    stumpfgobs Member Posts: 297 Arc User
    I think the problem is that the concept of narrow arc weaponry in sto never was fully realized. Looking at some of the mechanics one can come to the conclusion that those narrow arc weapons were intended for ships that could "chase" enemy ships. Most stfs don't really sport any ships that can be chased. The other possible utility might have been the concept of "strafing runs" but that doesn't work well either.
    It is somewhat ironic that beam arrays perform better in high speed attacks where movement is used in a defensive way.

    Making cannons more like beams would solve it but i'm not sure if that is a good solution. Then again, i'm pretty certain that a in-depth solution, while probably better, involves more dev time than will be available for such an issue.
  • peterconnorfirst
    peterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    The only thing that bugs me about cannons atm is that CSV seems to cover only 3 targets at most. I don’t mind the arc as I can deal with it but when I have 5 targets in it I really think it would be fair if all would get their share of the volley (like it does with BFAW).
    animated.gif
    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • kelshando
    kelshando Member Posts: 887 Arc User
    edited June 2016
    I personally think they should remove cannon and beam ability's and just combine them.

    Such as:

    Fire at Will: Ships energy weapons fire at multiple targets in there respective weapon arcs. (this would replace BFW and CVF)

    Full power to energy weapons: Beams focus there power into one powerful burst, Cannons overcharge their firing rate for x amount of time (this removes CRF and BO)

    This would allow players to mix energy weapon systems more freely allowing for ships to run beams and cannons.

    As far as the boom and zoom that the escorts are designed to do.. a longer cool down on the cannons but increased damage would help.. given the lack of up time a moving ship has on target.. the longer cool down at firing cycle would make so sitting and shooting away would not be helpful and the increased damage would make boom and zoom escort fighting style more rewarding.
  • thekodanarmada#7342
    thekodanarmada#7342 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    I've been thinking a lot about BFAW, A2B, DPS, etc. lately as I've been trying out the technical side of DPS a bit more. I've also been paying attention more to PUGs and thinking about the issues that have resulted in making BFAW popular on escorts.

    While, sure, BFAW is powerful, I think the skill demands of BOff management plus piloting are a bit demanding and, really, that keybinding is intuitive for a large number of players.

    So I'll cut to the chase:

    Piloting an escort at full throttle results in DPS dips when you turn around and requires more focus than firing beams.

    I suggest:

    - Turning cannon abilities into toggles rather than click abilities.
    - Reducing the cooldown for these abilities (without reducing the GCD) to discourage A2B builds on ships with cannons while supplying some of the benefits of A2B inherently.

    If cannons ran at the global cooldown for their own abilities, they wouldn't be worth running A2B with. If their attacks were "always on", escort pilots would focus on piloting.

    Now, one other thing I'd consider is to actually reduce what the CD and GCD is for certain abilities based on ship class. There currently are no GCD reductions but if ship class could modify this and CDs as well for SPECIFIC ABILITIES, you'd see more specialization.

    Destroyers: Reduction in Attack Pattern and Debuff cooldowns (and global cooldown reduction).
    Science: Reduction in exotic damage and shield heal cooldowns (and global cooldown).
    Escorts: Reduction in cannon upgrade and cooldowns (and global cooldowns).
    Cruisers: Reduction in torpedo and beam cooldowns.
    Battle Cruisers: Reduction in torpedo and cannon cooldowns.

    Additionally, maybe give each ship class a subsystem specific flow capacitor mod that matches what they already get bonus power to and a flow capacitor penalty to subsystems their class doesn't ordinarily get bonus power to. So if you run plasmonic leech on an escort, sure, your weapon power is maxed out but your shields won't QUITE be. If you run it on a cruiser, your weapon power won't be QUITE maxed out but your engine power will be.

    Post with your main.
    DInb0Vo.gif[/url][/center]
  • shurkhemolight
    shurkhemolight Member Posts: 399 Arc User
    I've been thinking a lot about BFAW, A2B, DPS, etc. lately as I've been trying out the technical side of DPS a bit more. I've also been paying attention more to PUGs and thinking about the issues that have resulted in making BFAW popular on escorts.

    While, sure, BFAW is powerful, I think the skill demands of BOff management plus piloting are a bit demanding and, really, that keybinding is intuitive for a large number of players.

    So I'll cut to the chase:

    Piloting an escort at full throttle results in DPS dips when you turn around and requires more focus than firing beams.

    I suggest:

    - Turning cannon abilities into toggles rather than click abilities.
    - Reducing the cooldown for these abilities (without reducing the GCD) to discourage A2B builds on ships with cannons while supplying some of the benefits of A2B inherently.

    If cannons ran at the global cooldown for their own abilities, they wouldn't be worth running A2B with. If their attacks were "always on", escort pilots would focus on piloting.

    Now, one other thing I'd consider is to actually reduce what the CD and GCD is for certain abilities based on ship class. There currently are no GCD reductions but if ship class could modify this and CDs as well for SPECIFIC ABILITIES, you'd see more specialization.

    Destroyers: Reduction in Attack Pattern and Debuff cooldowns (and global cooldown reduction).
    Science: Reduction in exotic damage and shield heal cooldowns (and global cooldown).
    Escorts: Reduction in cannon upgrade and cooldowns (and global cooldowns).
    Cruisers: Reduction in torpedo and beam cooldowns.
    Battle Cruisers: Reduction in torpedo and cannon cooldowns.

    Additionally, maybe give each ship class a subsystem specific flow capacitor mod that matches what they already get bonus power to and a flow capacitor penalty to subsystems their class doesn't ordinarily get bonus power to. So if you run plasmonic leech on an escort, sure, your weapon power is maxed out but your shields won't QUITE be. If you run it on a cruiser, your weapon power won't be QUITE maxed out but your engine power will be.

    Cutting to the chase as you say should have involved two things, cannon abilities should have been the same boff rank from the beginning, and the dropoff should have been the same.

    Anything else that you posted is just overkill.
  • shurkhemolight
    shurkhemolight Member Posts: 399 Arc User
    edited June 2016
    kelshando wrote: »
    I personally think they should remove cannon and beam ability's and just combine them.

    Such as:

    Fire at Will: Ships energy weapons fire at multiple targets in there respective weapon arcs. (this would replace BFW and CVF)

    Full power to energy weapons: Beams focus there power into one powerful burst, Cannons overcharge their firing rate for x amount of time (this removes CRF and BO)

    This would allow players to mix energy weapon systems more freely allowing for ships to run beams and cannons.

    As far as the boom and zoom that the escorts are designed to do.. a longer cool down on the cannons but increased damage would help.. given the lack of up time a moving ship has on target.. the longer cool down at firing cycle would make so sitting and shooting away would not be helpful and the increased damage would make boom and zoom escort fighting style more rewarding.

    You could already mix energy weapons, starting an alpha with FAW brought the shields down, lighting up CRF after that along with TS shattered hull.

    Its just simpler and better to do it with FAW and TS paired, or FAW alone.

  • shurkhemolight
    shurkhemolight Member Posts: 399 Arc User
    hugin1205 wrote: »
    still using aux2bat on toons, so it isn't dead - but the high DPSers don't use it.
    But my max (61k) still was done with aux2bat, aegis set and some other "don't"s

    Like Hugin1205 says A2B isn't dead, your build just eventually gets to a point where it is hampering you more than it helps.

    Your either satisfied at that point or you chuck it.

  • alethkiraen
    alethkiraen Member Posts: 306 Arc User
    I've been thinking a lot about BFAW, A2B, DPS, etc. lately as I've been trying out the technical side of DPS a bit more. I've also been paying attention more to PUGs and thinking about the issues that have resulted in making BFAW popular on escorts.

    While, sure, BFAW is powerful, I think the skill demands of BOff management plus piloting are a bit demanding and, really, that keybinding is intuitive for a large number of players.

    So I'll cut to the chase:

    Piloting an escort at full throttle results in DPS dips when you turn around and requires more focus than firing beams.

    I suggest:

    - Turning cannon abilities into toggles rather than click abilities.
    - Reducing the cooldown for these abilities (without reducing the GCD) to discourage A2B builds on ships with cannons while supplying some of the benefits of A2B inherently.

    If cannons ran at the global cooldown for their own abilities, they wouldn't be worth running A2B with. If their attacks were "always on", escort pilots would focus on piloting.

    Now, one other thing I'd consider is to actually reduce what the CD and GCD is for certain abilities based on ship class. There currently are no GCD reductions but if ship class could modify this and CDs as well for SPECIFIC ABILITIES, you'd see more specialization.

    Destroyers: Reduction in Attack Pattern and Debuff cooldowns (and global cooldown reduction).
    Science: Reduction in exotic damage and shield heal cooldowns (and global cooldown).
    Escorts: Reduction in cannon upgrade and cooldowns (and global cooldowns).
    Cruisers: Reduction in torpedo and beam cooldowns.
    Battle Cruisers: Reduction in torpedo and cannon cooldowns.

    Additionally, maybe give each ship class a subsystem specific flow capacitor mod that matches what they already get bonus power to and a flow capacitor penalty to subsystems their class doesn't ordinarily get bonus power to. So if you run plasmonic leech on an escort, sure, your weapon power is maxed out but your shields won't QUITE be. If you run it on a cruiser, your weapon power won't be QUITE maxed out but your engine power will be.

    Post with your main.

    http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1204096/a-proposal-for-cannons
    fRhmZXV.gif
    To boldly funk where no-one has funked before.
  • officerbatman81
    officerbatman81 Member Posts: 2,761 Arc User
    edited June 2016
    Copy n paste plagiarism should be against forum rules if it isnt.
  • whamhammer1
    whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    Id just be happy to see single cannon ls become more effective, I would love to mount them again but they just are too weak compared to beams.
  • legendarylycan#5411
    legendarylycan#5411 Member Posts: 36,946 Arc User
    Copy n paste plagiarism should be against forum rules if it isn't.

    it's not plagiarism if the OP of this thread is an alt account of the one from the prior thread

    of course, if true, that would mean said alt account is circumventing a ban, so, either way, he's in heap big trouble​​
    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!

    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    RIP Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, Rayshard Brooks & Calvin Munerlyn

    blacklivesmatter.png

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • officerbatman81
    officerbatman81 Member Posts: 2,761 Arc User
    Where did it came from its an alt acct? Regardless doesnt matter. And your right, circumventing a ban is a bigger sin.
  • legendarylycan#5411
    legendarylycan#5411 Member Posts: 36,946 Arc User
    the idea it might be an alt account came from activity in other threads - i don't actually KNOW for sure if it's an alt account of stoleviathan99 or not, but i have suspicions...we'll see if those suspicions pan out if/when the mods or trendy investigate​​
    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!

    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    RIP Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, Rayshard Brooks & Calvin Munerlyn

    blacklivesmatter.png

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • kelshando
    kelshando Member Posts: 887 Arc User
    kelshando wrote: »
    I personally think they should remove cannon and beam ability's and just combine them.

    Such as:

    Fire at Will: Ships energy weapons fire at multiple targets in there respective weapon arcs. (this would replace BFW and CVF)

    Full power to energy weapons: Beams focus there power into one powerful burst, Cannons overcharge their firing rate for x amount of time (this removes CRF and BO)

    This would allow players to mix energy weapon systems more freely allowing for ships to run beams and cannons.

    As far as the boom and zoom that the escorts are designed to do.. a longer cool down on the cannons but increased damage would help.. given the lack of up time a moving ship has on target.. the longer cool down at firing cycle would make so sitting and shooting away would not be helpful and the increased damage would make boom and zoom escort fighting style more rewarding.

    You could already mix energy weapons, starting an alpha with FAW brought the shields down, lighting up CRF after that along with TS shattered hull.

    Its just simpler and better to do it with FAW and TS paired, or FAW alone.

    Total missed the point.. you have to use more skills to use mixed weapon systems. What I suggested would make it more viable to mix them then having to waste BO skills on 2 different systems.. 3 if using torps.
  • echatty
    echatty Member Posts: 5,718 Arc User
    All we know for sure right now is this thread is an exact copy/paste of the other one.

    Still, some good ideas are being discussed.

    I still want to see dual cannons get a wider arc. If not 90 degrees, then at least 70?
    Now a LTS and loving it.

    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.

    xp8s7wd.jpg
  • nikeix
    nikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    When a game is this trivially easy, balancing general starts with nerfing the over-performers...
  • monkeybone13
    monkeybone13 Member Posts: 4,640 Arc User
    http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/comment/12976137
    Brand new account created for the sole purpose of necroing that^ old thread. Then the OP of this thread copies the entire text of that other thread in order to create a new thread. Seems fishy.
  • monkeybone13
    monkeybone13 Member Posts: 4,640 Arc User
    nabreeki wrote: »
    It's not stoleleviathan.

    I'm curious. How would you know for a fact the OP isn't stoleleviathan? I also have the feeling you know exactly who the OP is.
    echatty wrote: »
    All we know for sure right now is this thread is an exact copy/paste of the other one.

    Still, some good ideas are being discussed.

    I still want to see dual cannons get a wider arc. If not 90 degrees, then at least 70?

    We already have them actually. When you get R&D:Cannons to level 15 you unlock the recipe to craft wide-arc dual heavy cannons that have a 90 degree firing arc. You can only equip 1 wide-arc DHC on a single ship though, no matter what damage type they do.
  • asuran14
    asuran14 Member Posts: 2,326 Arc User
    nabreeki wrote: »
    It's not stoleleviathan.

    I'm curious. How would you know for a fact the OP isn't stoleleviathan? I also have the feeling you know exactly who the OP is.
    echatty wrote: »
    All we know for sure right now is this thread is an exact copy/paste of the other one.

    Still, some good ideas are being discussed.

    I still want to see dual cannons get a wider arc. If not 90 degrees, then at least 70?

    We already have them actually. When you get R&D:Cannons to level 15 you unlock the recipe to craft wide-arc dual heavy cannons that have a 90 degree firing arc. You can only equip 1 wide-arc DHC on a single ship though, no matter what damage type they do.

    I agree leave it to the mods to find out, deal with, and lets not derail the discussion anymore than it is currently.

    Where the wide-arc dual heavy cannon is concerned I think that is abit bad kinda, as it even more pushes dual cannons into a pigeon-hole of being seen as less-viable to heavy cannons. THe one per ship makes it that it starts firing abit before your other dual heavies, while if we adjusted the dual cannons to having 75-90 degree firing arcs you could slot it with these an have a heavier hitting dual cannon slotted with them that fires in the same arc. Also it would make the dual cannons more apt to be used on the slower-turning cruisers that can use dual cannons, yet can't turn quick enough to use dual heavies effectively without using alot of turn-rate boosting consoles. This is the spirit of the request though to see a weapon type that is seen by many as less-desirable/viable to slot get a use on the slower turning cruisers that can slot dual cannons, but yet can't slot dual heavies, while as said making using dual cannon-using cruiser have a effective/viable place next to beam-using cruisers. Also such a change would not need to see any changes to ships that can use dual cannons to make them more viable to use these cannons, as the change to the firing arc would be enough of a buff to be a viable option to many players by reducing the time lost by having to turn to require your target. I would personally love to run a dual cannon cruiser with one of the dual heavy wide-arcs equipped, if the dual cannons were brought up to a 90 degree firing arc.
  • nikeix
    nikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    If only there were a flag option on every single post to bring it to a moderators attention...
  • waffleqwop#4447
    waffleqwop#4447 Member Posts: 1 New User
    > @monkeybone13 said:I'm curious. How would you know for a fact the OP isn't stoleleviathan? I also have the feeling you know exactly who the OP is.


    i could think maybe he create alt

    to argue with himself troll people

    and maybe only way he could know

    op not stolevi is if he really op was

    but i dont really know which is true