That's why when the discussions of such things happen around here, I like to use "STO canon" instead. In STO canon, the Rihannsu novels of Diane Duane apparently happened - there's even a star system named for the House we followed in The Romulan Way. John M. Ford's The Final Reflection is part-canon, part-apocrypha, as the Klingon language and society are in line with Trek canon, but there is a mention of the game of klin zha in one mission. And of course there's rampant time travel in the early 25th century, sparking the Temporal War that will/did sweep up Archer's Enterprise in the eponymous series.
OTOH, my headcanon still excludes "The Omega Glory" from TOS, "Threshold" from VOY, "These Are the Voyages" from ENT, and Star Trek V.
You missed me getting the decade wrong, but a cursory warning by Spock about affecting history in the build up to the war (I assume it didn't come out of nowhere) wouldn't have gone amiss. There was decades of build up before WWII happened and any time traveller going back to any point post Treaty of Versailles would likely take care to mention not affecting the future, especially not if one of the major figures from that war had just fought said time traveller in the recent past.
Futures End takes place in 1996 and the only history altered in the episode is the histories of Braxton and the guy who owns the company. Not even a side mention to the supposed Eugenics War
That's all just speculation, but the wars weren't wars int he traditional sense but being a group of augments slowly taking control of governments which at some point erupted in violence and open warfare. I can very much it came "out of nowhere" for most people and information about the wars are scarce as we learn as well. If I look at today's politics, having some alien or engineered human building up to worlkd domination would explain a lot. A. Lot.
Future's End is a curious piece, then. The wars didn't play a big role for the story (none at all) and maybe writers just overlooked it, wouldn't be the first time. Then it's possible (although improbable) that the city they're in was entirely unaffected. As I said, the Eugenics wars are more akin to a decentralised war against cells with supporters and resistance all over the world, not every city had to be trashed by it. Yes, it's speculation and grasping at straws, but I'm not willing to retcon that piece of Trek history so easily Was Archer's ancestor mentioned to fight in the Eugenic wars or the war Riker referred to?
Khan was described as a warlord with a regime by Spock, that's not a man in the shadows, that's the ruler of the Eastern Coalition and augmented opponent of Greene's Terra Prime based racial superiority.
Khan was absolute ruler of more than one-quarter of Earth's population, including the regions of Asia and the Middle East.
Besides, look at the costumes...
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
That's why when the discussions of such things happen around here, I like to use "STO canon" instead. In STO canon, the Rihannsu novels of Diane Duane apparently happened - there's even a star system named for the House we followed in The Romulan Way. John M. Ford's The Final Reflection is part-canon, part-apocrypha, as the Klingon language and society are in line with Trek canon, but there is a mention of the game of klin zha in one mission. And of course there's rampant time travel in the early 25th century, sparking the Temporal War that will/did sweep up Archer's Enterprise in the eponymous series.
OTOH, my headcanon still excludes "The Omega Glory" from TOS, "Threshold" from VOY, "These Are the Voyages" from ENT, and Star Trek V.
What was wrong with "These Are the Voyages?"
You mean, besides the fact that it reduced everything done by the NX-01 crew to yet another of Riker's holodeck fantasies, invalidated the point of Riker standing up to his former CO in "Pegasus" (when the lesson derived from "Voyages" was to listen to your superior officers, the precise opposite of standing up to your principles even when ordered not to), and made the ship's chief engineer look like a moron who had no idea how his own damn ship was put together? Besides the way it abandoned the mytharc of the season, without so much as a reference to the Romulan War or what happened to Terra Prime in the years between the last episode and this one? Besides the way it shoehorned in a character who had previously been mentioned only in passing, making him suddenly a central person to whom everyone else on the ship routinely turned for advice?
Well, aside from all that, not that much, I suppose...
That's why when the discussions of such things happen around here, I like to use "STO canon" instead. In STO canon, the Rihannsu novels of Diane Duane apparently happened - there's even a star system named for the House we followed in The Romulan Way. John M. Ford's The Final Reflection is part-canon, part-apocrypha, as the Klingon language and society are in line with Trek canon, but there is a mention of the game of klin zha in one mission. And of course there's rampant time travel in the early 25th century, sparking the Temporal War that will/did sweep up Archer's Enterprise in the eponymous series.
OTOH, my headcanon still excludes "The Omega Glory" from TOS, "Threshold" from VOY, "These Are the Voyages" from ENT, and Star Trek V.
What was wrong with "These Are the Voyages?"
You mean, besides the fact that it reduced everything done by the NX-01 crew to yet another of Riker's holodeck fantasies, invalidated the point of Riker standing up to his former CO in "Pegasus" (when the lesson derived from "Voyages" was to listen to your superior officers, the precise opposite of standing up to your principles even when ordered not to), and made the ship's chief engineer look like a moron who had no idea how his own damn ship was put together? Besides the way it abandoned the mytharc of the season, without so much as a reference to the Romulan War or what happened to Terra Prime in the years between the last episode and this one? Besides the way it shoehorned in a character who had previously been mentioned only in passing, making him suddenly a central person to whom everyone else on the ship routinely turned for advice?
Well, aside from all that, not that much, I suppose...
Noo, it made Trip look like a guy who had the cojones to blow a relay in his own face to take out enemy troops who had him captive... (and trust me, when the show began, I thought Trip was a redneck with no business wearing a Starfleet uniform)
As for Chef, he had been referenced on and off a fair few times... I admit, your other points, I do agree with, but someone prepared to blow himself up in the line of duty... That warrants defending, IMHO
I think jonsills may be thinking of a different episode that has Trip comparing Enterprise's warp drive to an outboard motor and establishes that he can't do basic algebra. As if the internal combustion engine is at all comparable to something that casually tells universal constants what they can go do with themselves.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
What I mean is, Trip was in a maintenance accessway. He could have dialed the grav plating in the corridor up to about 4g, then called Security while the intruders were glued to the deck. I can only see him blowing himself up accidentally - if kamikaze really was the only route he could think of, then he was dumber than I gave him credit for.
What I mean is, Trip was in a maintenance accessway. He could have dialed the grav plating in the corridor up to about 4g, then called Security while the intruders were glued to the deck. I can only see him blowing himself up accidentally - if kamikaze really was the only route he could think of, then he was dumber than I gave him credit for.
I still think that someone would have shot him as soon as the gravity was dialed up.
Another point of discussion I'd like to bring up is the misconception of what "canon" actually means for a game like STO building upon it and the critique some people, myself included, bring forward which is often mocked as being too "purist". Basing something on canon does not mean you can only depict what was shown without expanding it. It just means it should be plausible.
For instance, assuming Starfleet only used Constitution class ships during the TOS era is unreasonable. We only saw those and this speaks for it being a well used and versatile prime ship, but it's not pluasible that there aren't other ship classes. Cryptic took some inspiration and created TOS ships that I am perfectly fine with, I like those designs. Carriers in STO, on the other hoof, are unplausible going with canon. What we had in canon were only momentary glimpses on how things worked, but those glimpses showed no instance the use of nimble shuttlecraft as main combat vessels would make any sense between factions using Trek star cruisers on the large scale. That is uncanonical and unplausible. It's always a measure of how well you let your expansion fit in. I mentioned it before, the Deferi and their conflict with the Breen, how they interacted with the Klingons in STO lore - very good addition. Literally no problems with that. Taking a underlying plot element of a few episodes and making it into the main driving force of the universe (Iconians) in STO however, that's unplausible. This is of course opinionated and it shows where people can have a civil but passionate discussion, but I just wanted to make sure that expansion and diversity can and should happen even if you respect canon.
Three types of Cargo Drone, the Huron, Bonaventure, Daedalus, the Medusan ship, the two Phase two concept models that appeared in TMP, the Saladin/Hermes, the Ptolemy, and possible the Federation (I still can't work out if that page was shown onscreen or not). But I get your point.
Still, retcons should happen, even if it massively contradicts TOS, because that's how shows update themselves, even if it's a massive 360 on the established canon.
The introduction of carriers in STO is odd, but not necessarily that far fetched considering the state of war (providing they have holographic pilots of course). But ST is full of technologies that could be used in more interesting wars and it's not limited to drones or holograms.
Here's a question that always kinda made me wonder: If Starfleet DOESN'T use shuttles for combat as some claim, why did Nick Locarno and his class spend so much time doing combat drills in them?
Also it established that shuttles can automatically beam the pilot out.
Because people seem to think combat in the Star Trek universe only takes place between big cruisers. Most of the combat in Star Trek takes place between cruisers because the setting of the shows is usually big cruisers.
Logically combat in this universe would be threefold. Space, atmospheric and ground. Now shuttles and fighters can be viable in this universe. There have been canon moments when smaller ships damaging bigger ships.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
@khan5000: Not in a stand-up fight. There's little evidence that the SIX fighter attacks in "Sacrifice of Angels" did any significant damage to the Cardie capital ships (Sisko even admitted he was just trying to bait the Cardies into breaking formation), and every instance where light vessels managed to destroy a significantly larger capital ship required either overwhelming numbers (STFC, "The Die Is Cast") and/or some kind of trickery (ST6 against Qo'noS One, Generations against Enterprise, "The Jem'Hadar" against Odyssey, "The Die Is Cast" again).
Even the USS Ben Sisko's Mothereffin' Pimp Hand never scored a confirmed onscreen kill against anything bigger than a Breen cruiser.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The bizarre idea that a similar planet would naturally have similar cultures.
Not just similar (the one with its own version of the Roman Empire was similar, but projected into 20th-century technology), but identical. They didn't have "an alien version" of the Constitution of the United States; as proved by their reaction to Kirk's quoting it in its entirety, they had the exact same document. (Which, given the document's historical antecedents, means that they also had the city-state of Athens in their past, and somewhere there was a Magna Carta.)
That's not "parallel evolution". (Parallel evolution is the contention that certain life-forms might evolve along lines parallel to ours, giving them a humanoid shape even from an alien environment.) That's straight-out writer fiat, copying an entire culture word for word. And it's only slightly less lazy as a writing tool than, "And then the little boy fell out of bed and woke up."
The most likely explanation is that Earth, was duplicated at some point for unknown and most likely unknowable reasons. It could just as likely be that none of them are the "original".
The bizarre idea that a similar planet would naturally have similar cultures.
Not just similar (the one with its own version of the Roman Empire was similar, but projected into 20th-century technology), but identical. They didn't have "an alien version" of the Constitution of the United States; as proved by their reaction to Kirk's quoting it in its entirety, they had the exact same document. (Which, given the document's historical antecedents, means that they also had the city-state of Athens in their past, and somewhere there was a Magna Carta.)
That's not "parallel evolution". (Parallel evolution is the contention that certain life-forms might evolve along lines parallel to ours, giving them a humanoid shape even from an alien environment.) That's straight-out writer fiat, copying an entire culture word for word. And it's only slightly less lazy as a writing tool than, "And then the little boy fell out of bed and woke up."
The most likely explanation is that Earth, was duplicated at some point for unknown and most likely unknowable reasons. It could just as likely be that none of them are the "original".
I just chalk it up to certain factual information getting misconstrued and or lost through the century's.
Everything that we've heard about in all the episodes most likely actually happened, but considering a Third World War took place and after seeing how things were during the aftermath in the premier of TNG, I'm not surprised that by the time of the 23rd & 24th century's the information has been a bit jumbled and fudged around by folks through all those many, many years.
<shrug>
As for the Duplicate Earths, though it is probably a statistical improbability, the Universe is a Very Big place and with thousands upon thousands of star systems, with thousands upon thousands of planets, there is the chance that it could happen.
Now, the fact that Kirk and the Gang just happened upon them so often, I just chalk it up to his damnable good luck.
Or Bad Luck, depending on ones point of view.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
No, that's not a one-in-a-thousand thing; that's more like a one-in-several-trillion-trillion thing. The exact words? In English?? I think "impossible" sums that one up nicely. Also "very heavy-handed", and "making 'Let That Be Your Last Battlefield' look subtle".
I just chalk it up to certain factual information getting misconstrued and or lost through the century's.
Everything that we've heard about in all the episodes most likely actually happened, but considering a Third World War took place and after seeing how things were during the aftermath in the premier of TNG, I'm not surprised that by the time of the 23rd & 24th century's the information has been a bit jumbled and fudged around by folks through all those many, many years.
<shrug>
As for the Duplicate Earths, though it is probably a statistical improbability, the Universe is a Very Big place and with thousands upon thousands of star systems, with thousands upon thousands of planets, there is the chance that it could happen.
Now, the fact that Kirk and the Gang just happened upon them so often, I just chalk it up to his damnable good luck.
Or Bad Luck, depending on ones point of view.
I think it's important to remember that the Milky Way galaxy in Star Trek is very different from our own. Star Trek has two galactic barriers (one in the center, one on the exterior), and the Preservers had seeded and therefore 'contaminated' the entire galaxy beyond its original form, making our galaxy a kind of science project for more powerful forces.
On top of that, you have beings like Q who literally alters the galaxy at whim, and therefore contaminates the natural state of our galaxy for any reason or no reason at all.
There are forces at work in the Star Trek universe who have canonically turned the statistically improbable upside down for reasons beyond our comprehension, and that the Milky Way galaxy is not representative of the entire universe, for instance it completely invalidates the Fermi Paradox (again with the help of the Preservers).
Every discovery, every exploration, every bit of the 'final frontier' that anybody in Starfleet takes part of, has been inherently (for one reason or another) corrupted by alien influence, including their own knowledge of history.
No, that's not a one-in-a-thousand thing; that's more like a one-in-several-trillion-trillion thing. The exact words? In English?? I think "impossible" sums that one up nicely. Also "very heavy-handed", and "making 'Let That Be Your Last Battlefield' look subtle".
I did say it was probably a statistical improbability.
But, there's always that slight chance...
It's like the STO RNG.... you may never get that one particular ship from a Lockbox that you want, but you could also get three in a row...
Likely..., probably not, but there's still a chance.
And we've seen Kirk fall into more messes and improbable circumstances than any one person could ever hope to experience, but He IS Captain Kirk.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
It would be more akin to opening a STO lockbox in hopes of finding a Mk II Wolf Spider Hoverbike and a Wanderer's Artifact Weapon Pack.
Iconians, how do you know there's no energy barrier at either the edge or the core of the Milky Way? Is there something about your personal history that you're not telling us...?
I just chalk it up to certain factual information getting misconstrued and or lost through the century's.
Everything that we've heard about in all the episodes most likely actually happened, but considering a Third World War took place and after seeing how things were during the aftermath in the premier of TNG, I'm not surprised that by the time of the 23rd & 24th century's the information has been a bit jumbled and fudged around by folks through all those many, many years.
<shrug>
(...)
That's what I think as well. History in TNG isn't a well organized database, much information is lost and unknown and that is shown repeatedly in the show. It is literally akin tow hat we know about the time centuries ago. Of course there are sources and reconstructions, but it's all interpretation with a margin of error.
The duplicate Earth(s) - meh. Basically every second planet in TOS was Earth. I just accept it
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Iconians, how do you know there's no energy barrier at either the edge or the core of the Milky Way? Is there something about your personal history that you're not telling us...?
maybe because any energy field large enough to surround an entire galaxy and its core would've been picked up by hubble as it looked in those general directions?
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I would have thought the two great barriers would have made it abundantly clear the galaxy is somebody's very large test tube.
As I recall, the punch line to Project Sign was that while it kept an eye on the Mirror Universe, its predecessor Project Magnet was founded in response to the discovery there were MANY extremely close duplicates of Earth scattered around the galaxy some with precisely duplicate histories that ran up to at least the moment of First Contact. Someone in Starfleet thought maybe the general populace might freak out just a bit to discover their whole existence and the history of mankind was nothing more than "sample #7" in a 20+ sample control group.
It would be more akin to opening a STO lockbox in hopes of finding a Mk II Wolf Spider Hoverbike and a Wanderer's Artifact Weapon Pack.
Iconians, how do you know there's no energy barrier at either the edge or the core of the Milky Way? Is there something about your personal history that you're not telling us...?
No, that's not a one-in-a-thousand thing; that's more like a one-in-several-trillion-trillion thing. The exact words? In English?? I think "impossible" sums that one up nicely. Also "very heavy-handed", and "making 'Let That Be Your Last Battlefield' look subtle".
I think subtlety entered broadcast television later than TOS's initial run.
I have a mantra for this sort of episode: "Preserver colony, Preserver colony"
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
Well, we know that there are many species in Trek that achieved warp long before humans ever did. We can at least maybe explain Capellans and so forth LOOKING human by assuming something like the alien abductions in "The 37s". I.e. they aren't human lookalikes, they're literally the descendants of ancient humans who were kidnapped from Earth.
Hell, Diane Duane has it that the schism between the Vulcans and proto-Romulans happened after raids by the ancestors of the Orions; maybe the same solution works for the Mintakans.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I just chalk it up to certain factual information getting misconstrued and or lost through the century's.
Everything that we've heard about in all the episodes most likely actually happened, but considering a Third World War took place and after seeing how things were during the aftermath in the premier of TNG, I'm not surprised that by the time of the 23rd & 24th century's the information has been a bit jumbled and fudged around by folks through all those many, many years.
<shrug>
I assume that's how Spock thought it happened in the 90s, but the crew of Voyager physically being in the 90s when it wasn't happening makes that impossible for the supposed date of the EW to be accurate but Archers family history and Bashir's knowledge of Augment history is a good reason to believe they both were the same war and that war was in the 50s.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I assume that's how Spock thought it happened in the 90s, but the crew of Voyager physically being in the 90s when it wasn't happening makes that impossible for the supposed date of the EW to be accurate but Archers family history and Bashir's knowledge of Augment history is a good reason to believe they both were the same war and that war was in the 50s.
It is really a difficult topic. I just read up on behind the scenes info - Braga, genious he is, decided to not include the EWs in the episode because he designed Voyager as a show that shouldn't have a continuity with the other shows. He literally required the writers to have very episode be stand-alone with no required knowledge of previous events as their analysts pointed out that most VOY viewers were irregular and had little knowledge of the other Trek installments (this is also why everyone in Voyager has a exposition bit about their character almost every episode, espcially Seven is really annoying, but Tuvok is really bad as well). Bashir's mix-up however is a declared mistake and un-intented. So everything you have indicating no EWs in the 90s is Future's End which omitted the EWs because they didn't want to overburden their audience. Space Seed et al. still holds true. These are more canonical points for the 90s as are for the 2050s. in the mid 21st century there was another war, Riker mentioned it in TNG, but it wasn't the EW.
Possible in-universe explanation: LA just wasn't affected. American cities during WW2 weren't affected either for example and the Augment Regime, which fell in 1996 (the year future's end took place, so they were already losing), reigned in Asia and the middle east. It's odd nobody mentions it, true, but to me it's not enough proof to retcon the 90s.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
What I mean is, Trip was in a maintenance accessway. He could have dialed the grav plating in the corridor up to about 4g, then called Security while the intruders were glued to the deck. I can only see him blowing himself up accidentally - if kamikaze really was the only route he could think of, then he was dumber than I gave him credit for.
Could he? Would the control for the grav plating i) actually been at that location and ii) been capable of withstanding such over-charging? The relay he blew, on the other hand, clearly accessible...
Kamikaze acts require cojones, not stupidity or ignorance... Every bit as selfless as, oh, realigning dilithium crystals by hand and taking a fatal dose of radiation
As I said, I never really liked Trip at all, but credit where credit's due
I assume that's how Spock thought it happened in the 90s, but the crew of Voyager physically being in the 90s when it wasn't happening makes that impossible for the supposed date of the EW to be accurate but Archers family history and Bashir's knowledge of Augment history is a good reason to believe they both were the same war and that war was in the 50s.
It is really a difficult topic. I just read up on behind the scenes info - Braga, genious he is, decided to not include the EWs in the episode because he designed Voyager as a show that shouldn't have a continuity with the other shows. He literally required the writers to have very episode be stand-alone with no required knowledge of previous events as their analysts pointed out that most VOY viewers were irregular and had little knowledge of the other Trek installments (this is also why everyone in Voyager has a exposition bit about their character almost every episode, espcially Seven is really annoying, but Tuvok is really bad as well). Bashir's mix-up however is a declared mistake and un-intented. So everything you have indicating no EWs in the 90s is Future's End which omitted the EWs because they didn't want to overburden their audience. Space Seed et al. still holds true. These are more canonical points for the 90s as are for the 2050s. in the mid 21st century there was another war, Riker mentioned it in TNG, but it wasn't the EW.
Possible in-universe explanation: LA just wasn't affected. American cities during WW2 weren't affected either for example and the Augment Regime, which fell in 1996 (the year future's end took place, so they were already losing), reigned in Asia and the middle east. It's odd nobody mentions it, true, but to me it's not enough proof to retcon the 90s.
Mistakes or continuity gaffs or not. They're still onscreen and still canon. The only evidence for the 90s is Space Seed, the evidence against it is Futures End and Bashir's comment. That's two against one. The evidence for a 90s war comes from TOS which also brought us warp 14, lithium powered Starships, and warpless Romulans. The evidence against a 90s war comes from a supergenius with in depth knowledge of Augments and from an episode set directly in the midsts of the 90s EW were it going on.
Nothing we hear about Khan or the EW in Space Seed could possibly go unnoticed in Futures End. So excluding time buggery, the most reasonable option is that Spock got the dates wrong due to missing information or something.
The idea that the EW wouldn't be mentioned, even in passing, during TVH or FE is inconceivable to me. Kirk literally has the opportunity to end Khan before he begins in TVH but doesn't even mention it, defeating 'the most powerful threat the Enterprise ever faced', as PUSpock said in ID (about the real Khan, not Harrison who I still don't believe is Khan).
And in FE, the plot is about utilising the past for selfish ends, a prime opportunity to mention the fact that there are a bunch of Augments running around the Far East who would probably quite like to get their hands on some 29th century technology.
For the same reasons as I ignore warpless Romulans, warp 14, easy travel to the centre and boundary of the Milky way (I'm sure VOY could have managed that), I ignore the 90s Eugenics War because all were overruled by more modern Trek, Trek with an understanding of continuity and consequences.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
All the inconsistencies and disconinuities in Star Trek is what will keep fandom fighting.
I want to add to that by completely reimagining Star Trek and deciding on an "official" timeline. I am not sure at what point I would clearly diverge from our history, but it seems unavoidable to do so at some point, because in Trek, you will always want to go back to the past and will collide with our real timeline.
This isn't like Warhammer 40K or Battletech that is set so far in the future that any things that happened on Earth once would be long-forgotten or falsely remembered that it wouldn't matter.
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What was wrong with "These Are the Voyages?"
Khan was described as a warlord with a regime by Spock, that's not a man in the shadows, that's the ruler of the Eastern Coalition and augmented opponent of Greene's Terra Prime based racial superiority.
Besides, look at the costumes...
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Well, aside from all that, not that much, I suppose...
As for Chef, he had been referenced on and off a fair few times... I admit, your other points, I do agree with, but someone prepared to blow himself up in the line of duty... That warrants defending, IMHO
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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A caNNon has two wheels.
See the TWO LETTER "N's" in the word CANNON?
Two wheels. Two N's. = CANNON.
Once you have that, that's all you'll ever need to remember how to spell canon/cannon in the correct way providing for what's being written about.
Anything else that is not a big gun on two wheels is CANON.
I hope this helps everyone.
Because people seem to think combat in the Star Trek universe only takes place between big cruisers. Most of the combat in Star Trek takes place between cruisers because the setting of the shows is usually big cruisers.
Logically combat in this universe would be threefold. Space, atmospheric and ground. Now shuttles and fighters can be viable in this universe. There have been canon moments when smaller ships damaging bigger ships.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Even the USS Ben Sisko's Mothereffin' Pimp Hand never scored a confirmed onscreen kill against anything bigger than a Breen cruiser.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The most likely explanation is that Earth, was duplicated at some point for unknown and most likely unknowable reasons. It could just as likely be that none of them are the "original".
My character Tsin'xing
Everything that we've heard about in all the episodes most likely actually happened, but considering a Third World War took place and after seeing how things were during the aftermath in the premier of TNG, I'm not surprised that by the time of the 23rd & 24th century's the information has been a bit jumbled and fudged around by folks through all those many, many years.
<shrug>
As for the Duplicate Earths, though it is probably a statistical improbability, the Universe is a Very Big place and with thousands upon thousands of star systems, with thousands upon thousands of planets, there is the chance that it could happen.
Now, the fact that Kirk and the Gang just happened upon them so often, I just chalk it up to his damnable good luck.
Or Bad Luck, depending on ones point of view.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I think it's important to remember that the Milky Way galaxy in Star Trek is very different from our own. Star Trek has two galactic barriers (one in the center, one on the exterior), and the Preservers had seeded and therefore 'contaminated' the entire galaxy beyond its original form, making our galaxy a kind of science project for more powerful forces.
On top of that, you have beings like Q who literally alters the galaxy at whim, and therefore contaminates the natural state of our galaxy for any reason or no reason at all.
There are forces at work in the Star Trek universe who have canonically turned the statistically improbable upside down for reasons beyond our comprehension, and that the Milky Way galaxy is not representative of the entire universe, for instance it completely invalidates the Fermi Paradox (again with the help of the Preservers).
Every discovery, every exploration, every bit of the 'final frontier' that anybody in Starfleet takes part of, has been inherently (for one reason or another) corrupted by alien influence, including their own knowledge of history.
I did say it was probably a statistical improbability.
But, there's always that slight chance...
It's like the STO RNG.... you may never get that one particular ship from a Lockbox that you want, but you could also get three in a row...
Likely..., probably not, but there's still a chance.
And we've seen Kirk fall into more messes and improbable circumstances than any one person could ever hope to experience, but He IS Captain Kirk.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Iconians, how do you know there's no energy barrier at either the edge or the core of the Milky Way? Is there something about your personal history that you're not telling us...?
That's what I think as well. History in TNG isn't a well organized database, much information is lost and unknown and that is shown repeatedly in the show. It is literally akin tow hat we know about the time centuries ago. Of course there are sources and reconstructions, but it's all interpretation with a margin of error.
The duplicate Earth(s) - meh. Basically every second planet in TOS was Earth. I just accept it
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maybe because any energy field large enough to surround an entire galaxy and its core would've been picked up by hubble as it looked in those general directions?
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
As I recall, the punch line to Project Sign was that while it kept an eye on the Mirror Universe, its predecessor Project Magnet was founded in response to the discovery there were MANY extremely close duplicates of Earth scattered around the galaxy some with precisely duplicate histories that ran up to at least the moment of First Contact. Someone in Starfleet thought maybe the general populace might freak out just a bit to discover their whole existence and the history of mankind was nothing more than "sample #7" in a 20+ sample control group.
Well, I can't prove there isn't. But I also can't prove there isn't a china teapot in orbit between Earth and Mars.
I think subtlety entered broadcast television later than TOS's initial run.
I have a mantra for this sort of episode: "Preserver colony, Preserver colony"
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My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
Hell, Diane Duane has it that the schism between the Vulcans and proto-Romulans happened after raids by the ancestors of the Orions; maybe the same solution works for the Mintakans.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I assume that's how Spock thought it happened in the 90s, but the crew of Voyager physically being in the 90s when it wasn't happening makes that impossible for the supposed date of the EW to be accurate but Archers family history and Bashir's knowledge of Augment history is a good reason to believe they both were the same war and that war was in the 50s.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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It is really a difficult topic. I just read up on behind the scenes info - Braga, genious he is, decided to not include the EWs in the episode because he designed Voyager as a show that shouldn't have a continuity with the other shows. He literally required the writers to have very episode be stand-alone with no required knowledge of previous events as their analysts pointed out that most VOY viewers were irregular and had little knowledge of the other Trek installments (this is also why everyone in Voyager has a exposition bit about their character almost every episode, espcially Seven is really annoying, but Tuvok is really bad as well). Bashir's mix-up however is a declared mistake and un-intented. So everything you have indicating no EWs in the 90s is Future's End which omitted the EWs because they didn't want to overburden their audience. Space Seed et al. still holds true. These are more canonical points for the 90s as are for the 2050s. in the mid 21st century there was another war, Riker mentioned it in TNG, but it wasn't the EW.
Possible in-universe explanation: LA just wasn't affected. American cities during WW2 weren't affected either for example and the Augment Regime, which fell in 1996 (the year future's end took place, so they were already losing), reigned in Asia and the middle east. It's odd nobody mentions it, true, but to me it's not enough proof to retcon the 90s.
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Kamikaze acts require cojones, not stupidity or ignorance... Every bit as selfless as, oh, realigning dilithium crystals by hand and taking a fatal dose of radiation
As I said, I never really liked Trip at all, but credit where credit's due
Mistakes or continuity gaffs or not. They're still onscreen and still canon. The only evidence for the 90s is Space Seed, the evidence against it is Futures End and Bashir's comment. That's two against one. The evidence for a 90s war comes from TOS which also brought us warp 14, lithium powered Starships, and warpless Romulans. The evidence against a 90s war comes from a supergenius with in depth knowledge of Augments and from an episode set directly in the midsts of the 90s EW were it going on.
Nothing we hear about Khan or the EW in Space Seed could possibly go unnoticed in Futures End. So excluding time buggery, the most reasonable option is that Spock got the dates wrong due to missing information or something.
The idea that the EW wouldn't be mentioned, even in passing, during TVH or FE is inconceivable to me. Kirk literally has the opportunity to end Khan before he begins in TVH but doesn't even mention it, defeating 'the most powerful threat the Enterprise ever faced', as PUSpock said in ID (about the real Khan, not Harrison who I still don't believe is Khan).
And in FE, the plot is about utilising the past for selfish ends, a prime opportunity to mention the fact that there are a bunch of Augments running around the Far East who would probably quite like to get their hands on some 29th century technology.
For the same reasons as I ignore warpless Romulans, warp 14, easy travel to the centre and boundary of the Milky way (I'm sure VOY could have managed that), I ignore the 90s Eugenics War because all were overruled by more modern Trek, Trek with an understanding of continuity and consequences.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I want to add to that by completely reimagining Star Trek and deciding on an "official" timeline. I am not sure at what point I would clearly diverge from our history, but it seems unavoidable to do so at some point, because in Trek, you will always want to go back to the past and will collide with our real timeline.
This isn't like Warhammer 40K or Battletech that is set so far in the future that any things that happened on Earth once would be long-forgotten or falsely remembered that it wouldn't matter.