To be honest, I'll be laughing at those boasting about their DPS numbers from now on because, frankly, it's hilarious that anyone thinks that those numbers mean anything in content that can be completed in 57 seconds by a PuG
Why do you still play ISA?
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I like a lot of your posts.. but man this is getting old. Every post you make is complaining about ISA.. if you hate it that much, just stop running it.
Clearly it's not the best queue for you to run. Instead of constantly complaining and trying to bend the rest of the game to make this mission more accommodating to you, maybe it's best if you found something else to do? That or start running it with fleet mates or friends that aren't DPS heavy.
Every post you make is a complaint about ISA and bashing on Fire At Will. Not everyone plays your way my friend, there are other things to do. Again, I'm sorry if this sounds snotty, it's not meant to. I just know anytime I see one of your posts that it's going to be an ISA rant. It doesn't seem like your time is best spent with that particular piece of content.
In fairness though a lot of people play ISA because there's nothing else popping so they have no choice.
There are choices. Not as close as many choices as there are actually queues in the game, but I managed to run both Iconian Advanced Space Queues lately (Gateway to Grethor a lot more reliably then the Herald Sphere). It takes a few minutes to pop, but with all the DOFFing and Admirality you can do, it's time you can bridge in my experience. Now, of course, that's in my European play time in the evening.
I know that Geko will earn a lot of hate posts again and the forums will fill with doom and gloom, but I suspect things will get a lot more interesting when the queues end up being put on a rotation, so maybe Crystalline Entity and ISA are not available all day every day.
The other necessary 1/3 value was Long Range Targeting Sensors for beam users, and another shield one which I can't find. Can anyone confirm which it was? Shield Restoration or Shield Regeneration?
That should be Shield Hardness, I think. The bonus you got from power levels was reduced slightly to a more even number than before. It hink the original intent was for the Shield Hardness skill to buff that amount back up, but it seems now (going by the tooltip) they went with an energy-level independent buff.
Take Damage Control, on a science ship flown by my alt, 0/3 I've observed to be ~ 1%/sec hull hp regen on a KSV out of combat. 1/3 Dmg Control raises it to ~3%/sec, which is 3 times faster, meaning a cloaked or battle cloaked ship can regenerate considerable hull and re-enter the battle under a more reasonable time frame. I suspect the same to be true of shield regeneration with the exception that it's a constant and not altered by combat status, so more testing, more respeccing, more stress (instead of fun, something a MMO game should be to continue playing and have others to still play with...) that they'll pull the plug on free respec tokens for tribble (nevermind no tribble access for those who've never had membership).
It is my opinion that the Hull and Shield regeneration boosters are not really worth the points. But that's more based on a guesstimate - there just so many shield and hull healing abilities (that you might boost with Shield or Hull Restoration) that keep you alive usually that the bit extra passive regeneration won't make a difference.
Otherwise I think: If you want to be fairly generalist, you can almost always ditch the 3rd point in any given 3-part skill, and for most skills 1 point will suffice as well.
You get 40-50% of the main benefit from just the first pick in any given skill. Even if you fly a Tactical DPS ubermachine, I'd argue that having just 2/3 in Energy Weapons Training (or what the skill is called now) wouldn't matter much.
For Science specifically - for any science toon, yes, I'd take all 3 nodes in Particle Generators, Drain and Control Expertise. But you could probably ditch them, too, if you want to stay flexible and also fly non-science vessel that get more DPS from their weapons. (Drain Infection and Control Amplification are really more nice-to haves.)
But that always was my attitude to the old skill system, too. The last 3 points where never worth sacrificing the first 3 points in another skill.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Next try, same Skill Build, Breen Chell Grett (7 beams, 1 torp, Gravwell, Subspace Vortex), again ~30% more damage output. Survivability was slightly better than before.
Reasons for it as far as I can see:
- Kemocite can crit once again (2-3x damage)
- little buff for attack patterns
- some buff for crit Chance
- long range targeting
- shield weakening and hull pen
- cd reduction for science/engineering exotic damage/healing abilities via readiness skills
Next try, same Skill Build, Breen Chell Grett (7 beams, 1 torp, Gravwell, Subspace Vortex), again ~30% more damage output. Survivability was slightly better than before.
Reasons for it as far as I can see:
- Kemocite can crit once again (2-3x damage)
- little buff for attack patterns
- some buff for crit Chance
- long range targeting
- shield weakening and hull pen
- cd reduction for science/engineering exotic damage/healing abilities via readiness skills
Nice, that's a pretty solid build.
One thing I do like is that so far we don't seem to have the 'one build fits all' template we had with the old system. The old system had a bunch of garbage skills that were pointless to take, so people made 'cookie cutter' builds that people could use to avoid putting points into worthless abilities.
Now, since pretty much everything has at least some functional purpose, there does seem to be a lot more variation in builds. I do consider that a good thing.
I think Damage Control and Shield Regeneration are still mostly "garbage" skills. That might be a bit too harsh, but the only thing they buff is innate restoration. That is always the (s)lowest type of hull or shield regeneration. There are so many abilities that restore shields, hull or grant temporary it points that these two skills will never really matter. Hull Restoration and Shield Restoration are comparatively much more potent.
Also, I think that people tend to overspend on skills. On all the "straight-line" skills like weapon training or exotic particle generators, the last rank gives very little compared to what you already have. And considering all the other buffs a ship will get from power levels and gear and who knows what, it will be minuscule. Sure, if you want to absolutely positively max out DPS, you need those 3 ranks in weapon training. But you absolutely positively don't need to max out DPS.
You are likely to become a lot more flexible if you just spend that 3rd point in a different skill - maybe control expertise or torpedo training. Even if you don't use it on your exact current build and loadout, you could end up wanting to use it later, and don't feel like spending a respec. Especially considering how worried some people are about their respec costs because they "accidentally misclicked" somewhere - give your build some more breadth, then you won't have to respec even if you switch from a engineering heavy cruiser to a science heavy escort.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I'd have to disagree. With the shield and hull regeneration skills my shields and hull.are tougher than ever. My shields restore themselves at a rate of 3400.2 / 6 seconds with a 15.6k capacity.
I'd have to disagree. With the shield and hull regeneration skills my shields and hull.are tougher than ever. My shields restore themselves at a rate of 3400.2 / 6 seconds with a 15.6k capacity.
And you are sure that these skills are the reason that you are tougher?
The capacity for example has nothing to do with the regeneration skill. You might have also trained in the Shield Hardness skill - that wasn't even available before the game, and just one rank means you take 10 % less damage to your shields. That is pretty competitive with he 15 % of the Shield Capacity skill, in fact.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
ISA has been for lolz , deeps & quick Dil for a few years now .
Players who wanted to "play" went for KSA , CSA , the occasional Hive Onslaught and the Borg ground STF's .
Since the last change to CSA , where they made the I.K.S. Kang a sponge , I was left with KSA as the only one that took a little time to have fun in . Well no longer .
Generators and gates on KSA pugs now blow up as they were nothing and now ppl are racing to blow up the first Elite Tac cube , while those who are cruising to it on impulse (not full impulse) find the first Elite Tac cube in pieces before they even arrive .
And like I said , this is happening in Pugs ... -- which is why I am morbidly amused when I hear ppl saying things like "we asked for this revamp !" .
Really ? You really asked for this boy scout faceroll ??
Somehow I doubt it .
On the bright side , the Nakhul seem to be blowing up players on the occasion . Heh .
Ultimately, if there was power creep, I think yes, people have asked for it. Even if they didn't know it.
The goal was that players basically lose nothing. But how many people created rage-threads about them being buffed, vs. people that create rage-threads because they were nerfed?
If this game had a strong PvP component, I am sure we would have heard a bit more mixed feedback, because one players buff is another players nerf in PvP - but how many are going to complain that an ability suddenly deals a bit more damage, or they have more healing, or more hull or shields?
If we're lucky, any power creep is focused on builds that used to be on the weaker side of things, where as the top didn't move much. If not, well, there is a new ceiling and the usual suspects will find it.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I'd have to disagree. With the shield and hull regeneration skills my shields and hull.are tougher than ever. My shields restore themselves at a rate of 3400.2 / 6 seconds with a 15.6k capacity.
And you are sure that these skills are the reason that you are tougher?
The capacity for example has nothing to do with the regeneration skill. You might have also trained in the Shield Hardness skill - that wasn't even available before the game, and just one rank means you take 10 % less damage to your shields. That is pretty competitive with he 15 % of the Shield Capacity skill, in fact.
I'd have to disagree. With the shield and hull regeneration skills my shields and hull.are tougher than ever. My shields restore themselves at a rate of 3400.2 / 6 seconds with a 15.6k capacity.
And you are sure that these skills are the reason that you are tougher?
The capacity for example has nothing to do with the regeneration skill. You might have also trained in the Shield Hardness skill - that wasn't even available before the game, and just one rank means you take 10 % less damage to your shields. That is pretty competitive with he 15 % of the Shield Capacity skill, in fact.
One point in shield regeneration doubled my regneration rate for my epic dyson shield while the power boost from EPtS1 grants merely a 50% boost. It helps keeping shields up.
The power creep problem with this revamp is rather numerical. There are many more ways to boost damage now than before while "old" ways got buffed since you need less points to get the same results.
All benefits for damage buffs and resistence debuffs in the skill tree should be halved or reduced by at least a third.
Adjusting the effectiveness of skill points, means adjusting their value. If Shield Regen's effectiveness was halved, it might cause some or most to forego that skill altogether. I think a more reasonable solution, at least form a player's perspective, would be to up the difficulty. >30K DPS was not that hard to achieve prior to 11.5, and could be done without buying anything that required lobi/lockbox/zen. The problem was that there was a lot of bad info in-game, a lack of desire on the part of many to optimize their build, or they simply didn't know where to get the info. While the DPS crowd is quite large, I'd say most could care less, and are simply looking for the Star Trek Experience. Sure, the power creep certainly benefits those of us who chase the DPS dragon, but it also benefits those players who would have been a hindrance in Advanced/Elite runs (which is a whole other issue entirely). That being said, today alone I've done 5 ISA PuGs and only once did more than two team members break 5K. Based on the reports of significant increases in DPS by many players, I think this lends itself to the argument that at least some of those gains are based on better skill point allocations.
TL;DR - Give us an ISE/CCE/XXE rather than changing the skills, and raise the difficulty of all queues in general
I haven't had much of a chance to play around with new stuff in space, but on ground, I'm now over 1400 hp (up from around 1200) unbuffed and deal more damage than I did previously. My self-healing isn't as strong (which is fine because it's still quite powerful) and my personal shields are lower, (used to be 711, now they're 600-something) however that's fine as well. The addition of shield resilience probably makes them higher too.
Well, i am not quiet confident of cryptic managing to alter queues in a challenging way. Last "difficulty update" just made npc bigger hp targets and "boss" ships dying purely by bleedthrough damage because of near indestructible shields.
Railing in the effectiveness of the offensive Skills might be easier and would just get to a pre-revamp power level. Sure, there will be more failing optionals and queues, but steamrolling everything isn't good either. Right now, there is nearly no need for any crowd control or other abilities. Well, besides fun.
Those, who actually learned to hold their ground in queues wont be really harmed by such a "nerf" and inexperienced players still gain benefit from the revamp.
After lots of testing, I've found my DPS has gone up by a ridiculous amount. My previous tests involved Mark XII Nukara Tetry, Romulan Plasma and most of other Reputation weapons and gears in Mark XII. Normally, if I played really well hit everything on time, I'd be getting 25k DPS regardless of which flavour beam. My best ship/weapon combo with some epic Mk XIVs usually net me 53k at the best of times. Now, I've gotten 45k for my Tetryon Mark XII build up from 28k, 35k for plasma up from 25k, 33k for retro phaser build up from 20k and my old 53k combo is now doing 72k.
I'm a little disappointed with this. The anticipation is gone now, usually, I enjoy a bit of tweak and upgrade to get an extra thousand dps and working towards specific goals for each ship. Now, having it all handed to me this easily, I don't really know what to do with it. The goal post has been shifted and I don't have a frame of reference anymore.
Yeah after a few more parses today (thought I would start parsing again after someone posted one where I apparantly did 50k) I've noted that I've consistently parsed well above my previous average.
I'm doing 40k on a bad run now. Granted, I invested heavily in this character, but I used to have trouble to do more than 40k in ISA. Now I'm seeing 55-60k as some of my best results, 40k being pretty bad (relatively speaking, post-revamp).
The lag has also been pretty bad in some ISA's I played today.
I don’t consider the skill tree and the changes to it power creep. I mean its basic skill tree everybody has filled the moment he hits lvl 50 and it does not cost a thing.
The changes lead to a better performance on all my 9 characters on ground and especially in space. My measured DPS has increased up to 30% on some characters although I can’t tell what is due to skill tree change and what is related to new strategist spec. I also noted a nice increase to sci stuff on one of the toons I speced for it. Engineering ultimate is just a massive disapointment on another char.
All in all I like the change. A lot of the harder end game contend has been made much more accessible to the average team with it so I hope queues see an influx of participation in the future. Good players play a more influential role than they ever did while bad players are simply less bad.
I say queue up everybody, game is easy again.
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I used to do about 25-30k, now I've twice posted 59k ISA runs.
The first time I saw it I thought it was just the team buffing me along but the second it definitely wasn't the case.
It has sucked the fun out of all the borg advanced stfs. Either elite queues need to be made or advanced ones rebalanced imo.
I don't think they'll rebalance it, half the people on here would be screaming bloody murder if their new DPS gets lowered. I wouldn't mind an ISE. I might even try Hive Onslauagh Elite tonight and see if I can finally kill something.
There we go again: the cry for nerfs, as soon as someone spots another having fun.
But no, there's no power creep. The new skills allow for more offensive abilities, though; and many there be (including yours truly), who chose to forego on some of the defensive stuff. Like I now have only 1 point in Shield Capacity, and only 2 in Shield Regeneration (both used to be maxed out under the old paradigm). The difference is noticed, but it's a conscious choice I made. And I'll be damned if I now let those choices be twisted to mean power creep.
To be honest, I'll be laughing at those boasting about their DPS numbers from now on because, frankly, it's hilarious that anyone thinks that those numbers mean anything in content that can be completed in 57 seconds by a PuG
Why do you still play ISA?
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I like a lot of your posts.. but man this is getting old. Every post you make is complaining about ISA.. if you hate it that much, just stop running it.
Clearly it's not the best queue for you to run. Instead of constantly complaining and trying to bend the rest of the game to make this mission more accommodating to you, maybe it's best if you found something else to do? That or start running it with fleet mates or friends that aren't DPS heavy.
Every post you make is a complaint about ISA and bashing on Fire At Will. Not everyone plays your way my friend, there are other things to do. Again, I'm sorry if this sounds snotty, it's not meant to. I just know anytime I see one of your posts that it's going to be an ISA rant. It doesn't seem like your time is best spent with that particular piece of content.
In fairness though a lot of people play ISA because there's nothing else popping so they have no choice. And then there's the flip-side where a large number for people are so obsessed with increasing their DPS that running ISA has become almost like an addiction for them.
I know you can run fleet queues or other premades but sometimes you just want to go play a pug run and have it last longer the 1 minute. ISA itself is not actually that bad a mission, it's got a decent set-up and should really require some level of coordination to succeed. But power-creep has turned it into a complete joke along with every other queue, mission and battlezone in the game.
I think Reyan is just as entitled to keep pointing out his hatred for the way ISA currently is as all the other people sticking their oh so great DPS records.
In all fairness CCA pops as often as ISA does. Whatever @reyan01 issue is there should be none after the skill revamp. You are the scis here! I have no idea what happened to CCA but that mission turned into a sci heaven overnight. I managed 90k DPS on my sci toon with roughly 40% of the damage done with gravity wells and subspace vortex alone. Man, those abilities are 10 times easier to get to work than faw…
I know that different maps make different builds shine but quite frankly if, after the skill revamp, anybody has still trouble to participate anywhere in advanced pve its hardly the games fault anymore. I made dozen of isa over the weekend, as Sci with full sci skill, as Eng with full eng skil, as tac with cannons in a full tac skill and even with some balanced builds. All works just fine.
I also congratulate you and @reyan01 for constantly make it into ISA pug instances that last less than a minute. Sadly I never make it into one even though I play it a lot in pugs and premades. Please check if your clocks work properly because sub 1 min ISA runs still belong to the top records usually achieved only in DPS oriented elite teams. It’s highly unlikely you or he end up in those that often just by accident.
Its hard to say. The revamp has brought back a lot of powerhouse players who were not bothering to do group content or something. Nearly every group I have been in since the patch has had one cowboy that kills everything before anyone else can even get to it. Which is fine, as I just want marks, but it makes it hard to say. I can't believe these players are 10k dps noobs who suddenly went to 300k dps due to the skill revamp. They have to be retired players who are back for a week or two ... that makes it impossible to say.
I think for a lot of high score DPSer doing ISA in low DPS premades and pugs got very attractive as of late. One reason is less DPS cannibalization in consideration of the limited amount of available ISA critters; the other one is the lag reaching new heights by DPS oriented team mates all spamming focused frenzy.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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It's one thing to choose to lose something to gain something else. I expected to lose some survivability in taking more offensive skills. However right now, I got 30+% damage increase without any real drawback. My loss in shield/hull hp and regeneration/restoration is nullified by shield hardness and because most enemies can't engage me before exploding. I even manage without sacrifice bigger "all in" gravwells and survivability has risen. "Players wont lose anything" went to "players dont need to care, they win anyway".
One good thing is: I could change faw to whatever ability without gimping me or the team. There is enough damage everywhere.
There we go again: the cry for nerfs, as soon as someone spots another having fun.
But no, there's no power creep. The new skills allow for more offensive abilities, though; and many there be (including yours truly), who chose to forego on some of the defensive stuff. Like I now have only 1 point in Shield Capacity, and only 2 in Shield Regeneration (both used to be maxed out under the old paradigm). The difference is noticed, but it's a conscious choice I made. And I'll be damned if I now let those choices be twisted to mean power creep.
Is it wrong to 'cry' for nerfs after players were - I assume - unintentionally - buffed up to 50 or even 100% (meaning they're almost twice as powerful as before - something the new abilities on their own cannot account for) ?
No one's crying for nerfs. I just wish they'd stop this madness. Doing 40k in ISA - with cannons, torpedoes or beams, it's all possible - is already more than enough, seeing that figure increase to 60k without really changing anything is just plain ridiculous. Unless they're planning the release of elite queues, this needs to be fixed. And no, that wouldn't be so much a 'nerf', it would be correcting an earlier - what I assume to be unintended - buff.
It's all fine if your DPS increased if you chose to forego more defensive skills, but there are players who are seeing their DPS doubled or increased by well over 50% even though they more or less copied their original build. Getting more powerful after choosing more offensive and less defensive skills is acceptable. Being twice as strong as before without doing anything for it is something that shouldn't be happening. Everyone who's able to look beyond the bow of their own starship would come to the same conclusion.
There we go again: the cry for nerfs, as soon as someone spots another having fun.
But no, there's no power creep. The new skills allow for more offensive abilities, though; and many there be (including yours truly), who chose to forego on some of the defensive stuff. Like I now have only 1 point in Shield Capacity, and only 2 in Shield Regeneration (both used to be maxed out under the old paradigm). The difference is noticed, but it's a conscious choice I made. And I'll be damned if I now let those choices be twisted to mean power creep.
Is it wrong to 'cry' for nerfs after players were - I assume - unintentionally - buffed up to 50 or even 100% (meaning they're almost twice as powerful as before - something the new abilities on their own cannot account for) ?
No one's crying for nerfs. I just wish they'd stop this madness. Doing 40k in ISA - with cannons, torpedoes or beams, it's all possible - is already more than enough, seeing that figure increase to 60k without really changing anything is just plain ridiculous. Unless they're planning the release of elite queues, this needs to be fixed. And no, that wouldn't be so much a 'nerf', it would be correcting an earlier - what I assume to be unintended - buff.
It's all fine if your DPS increased if you chose to forego more defensive skills, but there are players who are seeing their DPS doubled or increased by well over 50% even though they more or less copied their original build. Getting more powerful after choosing more offensive and less defensive skills is acceptable. Being twice as strong as before without doing anything for it is something that shouldn't be happening. Everyone who's able to look beyond the bow of their own starship would come to the same conclusion.
Why does everything that has ever been adjusted to the game always have to be translated to ISA?
Those maps were rejected by 99% of the player base for 1,5 years now because close to no team could handle them and even those who could hardly saw any fitting reward in doing so.
Under the current change for me and my fleet mates those maps are finally in reach. We can simply team up and have some challenge and fun without judging the others DPS. The rewards begin to mean something again and we get a fair chance at completion.
I think the change simply gave a lot of players (of all different kinds of standing) more access to the available contend. Its good, not bad.
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There we go again: the cry for nerfs, as soon as someone spots another having fun.
But no, there's no power creep. The new skills allow for more offensive abilities, though; and many there be (including yours truly), who chose to forego on some of the defensive stuff. Like I now have only 1 point in Shield Capacity, and only 2 in Shield Regeneration (both used to be maxed out under the old paradigm). The difference is noticed, but it's a conscious choice I made. And I'll be damned if I now let those choices be twisted to mean power creep.
Is it wrong to 'cry' for nerfs after players were - I assume - unintentionally - buffed up to 50 or even 100% (meaning they're almost twice as powerful as before - something the new abilities on their own cannot account for) ?
No one's crying for nerfs. I just wish they'd stop this madness. Doing 40k in ISA - with cannons, torpedoes or beams, it's all possible - is already more than enough, seeing that figure increase to 60k without really changing anything is just plain ridiculous. Unless they're planning the release of elite queues, this needs to be fixed. And no, that wouldn't be so much a 'nerf', it would be correcting an earlier - what I assume to be unintended - buff.
It's all fine if your DPS increased if you chose to forego more defensive skills, but there are players who are seeing their DPS doubled or increased by well over 50% even though they more or less copied their original build. Getting more powerful after choosing more offensive and less defensive skills is acceptable. Being twice as strong as before without doing anything for it is something that shouldn't be happening. Everyone who's able to look beyond the bow of their own starship would come to the same conclusion.
Why does everything that has ever been adjusted to the game always have to be translated to ISA?
Those maps were rejected by 99% of the player base for 1,5 years now because close to no team could handle them and even those who could hardly saw any fitting reward in doing so.
Under the current change for me and my fleet mates those maps are finally in reach. We can simply team up and have some challenge and fun without judging the others DPS. The rewards begin to mean something again and we get a fair chance at completion.
I think the change simply gave a lot of players (of all different kinds of standing) more access to the available contend. Its good, not bad.
Or any other advanced queue for that matter. Fact is, comparing DPS is easiest for ISA and you know that. Logically, defining power creep is thus also easiest for ISA.
It's not that other queues don't matter, it's just that you need to be able to measure power creep and thus use one and the same queue for defining it.
Also, you're giving examples of ELITE queues. Of course those are out of reach for the majority of players, it was stated by the Devs, after the queue revamp that came with Delta Rising, that this was intended.
It's not good, it is bad when queues last less than a fifth of the time they were intended to last. If that isn't 'power creep', that I honestly don't know what is.
The fact that ISA is singled out is purely for methodological reasons. You need to be able to compare things. I assumed you were well aware of this, Peter.
The fact that ISA is singled out is purely for methodological reasons. You need to be able to compare things.
This. ISA is the best map for gauging what our ships are capable of, and more importantly, how the changes we make impact our builds. Min-maxers would love a better map, but at present, ISA is all we have. ISA affords predictability (control), near-constant combat, and close proximity to the rest of the team (accurate parsing).
If Cryptic came to the DPS crowd and said "help us make a new map to replace ISA," they would jump all over it. We would also like a map to accurately gauge individual DPS, but this would just be icing on the cake, since end-game content is focused on team-play.
As for queues being dead, this will persist until restrictions are placed on who can get into them. Many in the DPS crowd simply refuse to PuG anymore. Why would they when a pre-made with all competent players is just a few key strokes away? And while having a team where one person is doing 50K or more, and four team mates doing less than 10K can be problematic, the bigger issue is players not understanding HOW to run the map. And this isn't just an ISA problem. GGA, KSA, CSA, etc. all have this issue. But since they will never place any sort of restriction or ability cap on who can que for these runs, many players will simply opt for pre-mades.
I would also like to add that in the new skill system, we can spec into boosting team effectiveness via Coordination Protocols. combine this with the Ico set, Tactical fleet, and the other sources of buffs and debuffs that existed prior to 11.5, and what you are left with is a team that can do dish-out and survive more damage, which leads to better numbers.
Comments
I know that Geko will earn a lot of hate posts again and the forums will fill with doom and gloom, but I suspect things will get a lot more interesting when the queues end up being put on a rotation, so maybe Crystalline Entity and ISA are not available all day every day.
That should be Shield Hardness, I think. The bonus you got from power levels was reduced slightly to a more even number than before. It hink the original intent was for the Shield Hardness skill to buff that amount back up, but it seems now (going by the tooltip) they went with an energy-level independent buff.
It is my opinion that the Hull and Shield regeneration boosters are not really worth the points. But that's more based on a guesstimate - there just so many shield and hull healing abilities (that you might boost with Shield or Hull Restoration) that keep you alive usually that the bit extra passive regeneration won't make a difference.
Otherwise I think: If you want to be fairly generalist, you can almost always ditch the 3rd point in any given 3-part skill, and for most skills 1 point will suffice as well.
You get 40-50% of the main benefit from just the first pick in any given skill. Even if you fly a Tactical DPS ubermachine, I'd argue that having just 2/3 in Energy Weapons Training (or what the skill is called now) wouldn't matter much.
For Science specifically - for any science toon, yes, I'd take all 3 nodes in Particle Generators, Drain and Control Expertise. But you could probably ditch them, too, if you want to stay flexible and also fly non-science vessel that get more DPS from their weapons. (Drain Infection and Control Amplification are really more nice-to haves.)
But that always was my attitude to the old skill system, too. The last 3 points where never worth sacrificing the first 3 points in another skill.
Reasons for it as far as I can see:
- Kemocite can crit once again (2-3x damage)
- little buff for attack patterns
- some buff for crit Chance
- long range targeting
- shield weakening and hull pen
- cd reduction for science/engineering exotic damage/healing abilities via readiness skills
Nice, that's a pretty solid build.
One thing I do like is that so far we don't seem to have the 'one build fits all' template we had with the old system. The old system had a bunch of garbage skills that were pointless to take, so people made 'cookie cutter' builds that people could use to avoid putting points into worthless abilities.
Now, since pretty much everything has at least some functional purpose, there does seem to be a lot more variation in builds. I do consider that a good thing.
Also, I think that people tend to overspend on skills. On all the "straight-line" skills like weapon training or exotic particle generators, the last rank gives very little compared to what you already have. And considering all the other buffs a ship will get from power levels and gear and who knows what, it will be minuscule. Sure, if you want to absolutely positively max out DPS, you need those 3 ranks in weapon training. But you absolutely positively don't need to max out DPS.
You are likely to become a lot more flexible if you just spend that 3rd point in a different skill - maybe control expertise or torpedo training. Even if you don't use it on your exact current build and loadout, you could end up wanting to use it later, and don't feel like spending a respec. Especially considering how worried some people are about their respec costs because they "accidentally misclicked" somewhere - give your build some more breadth, then you won't have to respec even if you switch from a engineering heavy cruiser to a science heavy escort.
The capacity for example has nothing to do with the regeneration skill. You might have also trained in the Shield Hardness skill - that wasn't even available before the game, and just one rank means you take 10 % less damage to your shields. That is pretty competitive with he 15 % of the Shield Capacity skill, in fact.
Players who wanted to "play" went for KSA , CSA , the occasional Hive Onslaught and the Borg ground STF's .
Since the last change to CSA , where they made the I.K.S. Kang a sponge , I was left with KSA as the only one that took a little time to have fun in .
Well no longer .
Generators and gates on KSA pugs now blow up as they were nothing and now ppl are racing to blow up the first Elite Tac cube , while those who are cruising to it on impulse (not full impulse) find the first Elite Tac cube in pieces before they even arrive .
And like I said , this is happening in Pugs ... -- which is why I am morbidly amused when I hear ppl saying things like "we asked for this revamp !" .
Really ?
You really asked for this boy scout faceroll ??
Somehow I doubt it .
On the bright side , the Nakhul seem to be blowing up players on the occasion .
Heh .
The goal was that players basically lose nothing. But how many people created rage-threads about them being buffed, vs. people that create rage-threads because they were nerfed?
If this game had a strong PvP component, I am sure we would have heard a bit more mixed feedback, because one players buff is another players nerf in PvP - but how many are going to complain that an ability suddenly deals a bit more damage, or they have more healing, or more hull or shields?
If we're lucky, any power creep is focused on builds that used to be on the weaker side of things, where as the top didn't move much. If not, well, there is a new ceiling and the usual suspects will find it.
Shield Regen is boosted by your sub-system power level and your shield cap. Here is a link where you can find the info:
https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/comments/4dz3cr/discussion_thread_482016_season_115_skills/
As it stands, having at least one point in this skill is a must on high-end builds
The power creep problem with this revamp is rather numerical. There are many more ways to boost damage now than before while "old" ways got buffed since you need less points to get the same results.
All benefits for damage buffs and resistence debuffs in the skill tree should be halved or reduced by at least a third.
TL;DR - Give us an ISE/CCE/XXE rather than changing the skills, and raise the difficulty of all queues in general
Railing in the effectiveness of the offensive Skills might be easier and would just get to a pre-revamp power level. Sure, there will be more failing optionals and queues, but steamrolling everything isn't good either. Right now, there is nearly no need for any crowd control or other abilities. Well, besides fun.
Those, who actually learned to hold their ground in queues wont be really harmed by such a "nerf" and inexperienced players still gain benefit from the revamp.
b4 the revamp no1 skilled drain resistance
I'm a little disappointed with this. The anticipation is gone now, usually, I enjoy a bit of tweak and upgrade to get an extra thousand dps and working towards specific goals for each ship. Now, having it all handed to me this easily, I don't really know what to do with it. The goal post has been shifted and I don't have a frame of reference anymore.
I'm doing 40k on a bad run now. Granted, I invested heavily in this character, but I used to have trouble to do more than 40k in ISA. Now I'm seeing 55-60k as some of my best results, 40k being pretty bad (relatively speaking, post-revamp).
The lag has also been pretty bad in some ISA's I played today.
The changes lead to a better performance on all my 9 characters on ground and especially in space. My measured DPS has increased up to 30% on some characters although I can’t tell what is due to skill tree change and what is related to new strategist spec. I also noted a nice increase to sci stuff on one of the toons I speced for it. Engineering ultimate is just a massive disapointment on another char.
All in all I like the change. A lot of the harder end game contend has been made much more accessible to the average team with it so I hope queues see an influx of participation in the future. Good players play a more influential role than they ever did while bad players are simply less bad.
I say queue up everybody, game is easy again.
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I used to do about 25-30k, now I've twice posted 59k ISA runs.
The first time I saw it I thought it was just the team buffing me along but the second it definitely wasn't the case.
It has sucked the fun out of all the borg advanced stfs. Either elite queues need to be made or advanced ones rebalanced imo.
That's quite good actually. Spend 3 points in shield restoration skill?
Also, is that IN combat or out of it? Because I'm pretty sure it goes way way down in combat vs out.
But no, there's no power creep. The new skills allow for more offensive abilities, though; and many there be (including yours truly), who chose to forego on some of the defensive stuff. Like I now have only 1 point in Shield Capacity, and only 2 in Shield Regeneration (both used to be maxed out under the old paradigm). The difference is noticed, but it's a conscious choice I made. And I'll be damned if I now let those choices be twisted to mean power creep.
In all fairness CCA pops as often as ISA does. Whatever @reyan01 issue is there should be none after the skill revamp. You are the scis here! I have no idea what happened to CCA but that mission turned into a sci heaven overnight. I managed 90k DPS on my sci toon with roughly 40% of the damage done with gravity wells and subspace vortex alone. Man, those abilities are 10 times easier to get to work than faw…
I know that different maps make different builds shine but quite frankly if, after the skill revamp, anybody has still trouble to participate anywhere in advanced pve its hardly the games fault anymore. I made dozen of isa over the weekend, as Sci with full sci skill, as Eng with full eng skil, as tac with cannons in a full tac skill and even with some balanced builds. All works just fine.
I also congratulate you and @reyan01 for constantly make it into ISA pug instances that last less than a minute. Sadly I never make it into one even though I play it a lot in pugs and premades. Please check if your clocks work properly because sub 1 min ISA runs still belong to the top records usually achieved only in DPS oriented elite teams. It’s highly unlikely you or he end up in those that often just by accident.
I think for a lot of high score DPSer doing ISA in low DPS premades and pugs got very attractive as of late. One reason is less DPS cannibalization in consideration of the limited amount of available ISA critters; the other one is the lag reaching new heights by DPS oriented team mates all spamming focused frenzy.
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One good thing is: I could change faw to whatever ability without gimping me or the team. There is enough damage everywhere.
Is it wrong to 'cry' for nerfs after players were - I assume - unintentionally - buffed up to 50 or even 100% (meaning they're almost twice as powerful as before - something the new abilities on their own cannot account for) ?
No one's crying for nerfs. I just wish they'd stop this madness. Doing 40k in ISA - with cannons, torpedoes or beams, it's all possible - is already more than enough, seeing that figure increase to 60k without really changing anything is just plain ridiculous. Unless they're planning the release of elite queues, this needs to be fixed. And no, that wouldn't be so much a 'nerf', it would be correcting an earlier - what I assume to be unintended - buff.
It's all fine if your DPS increased if you chose to forego more defensive skills, but there are players who are seeing their DPS doubled or increased by well over 50% even though they more or less copied their original build. Getting more powerful after choosing more offensive and less defensive skills is acceptable. Being twice as strong as before without doing anything for it is something that shouldn't be happening. Everyone who's able to look beyond the bow of their own starship would come to the same conclusion.
Why does everything that has ever been adjusted to the game always have to be translated to ISA?
Gateway Elite, Counterpoint Elite, Herald Sphere Elite, HIVE Elite!!!
Those maps were rejected by 99% of the player base for 1,5 years now because close to no team could handle them and even those who could hardly saw any fitting reward in doing so.
Under the current change for me and my fleet mates those maps are finally in reach. We can simply team up and have some challenge and fun without judging the others DPS. The rewards begin to mean something again and we get a fair chance at completion.
I think the change simply gave a lot of players (of all different kinds of standing) more access to the available contend. Its good, not bad.
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Or any other advanced queue for that matter. Fact is, comparing DPS is easiest for ISA and you know that. Logically, defining power creep is thus also easiest for ISA.
It's not that other queues don't matter, it's just that you need to be able to measure power creep and thus use one and the same queue for defining it.
Also, you're giving examples of ELITE queues. Of course those are out of reach for the majority of players, it was stated by the Devs, after the queue revamp that came with Delta Rising, that this was intended.
It's not good, it is bad when queues last less than a fifth of the time they were intended to last. If that isn't 'power creep', that I honestly don't know what is.
This. ISA is the best map for gauging what our ships are capable of, and more importantly, how the changes we make impact our builds. Min-maxers would love a better map, but at present, ISA is all we have. ISA affords predictability (control), near-constant combat, and close proximity to the rest of the team (accurate parsing).
If Cryptic came to the DPS crowd and said "help us make a new map to replace ISA," they would jump all over it. We would also like a map to accurately gauge individual DPS, but this would just be icing on the cake, since end-game content is focused on team-play.
As for queues being dead, this will persist until restrictions are placed on who can get into them. Many in the DPS crowd simply refuse to PuG anymore. Why would they when a pre-made with all competent players is just a few key strokes away? And while having a team where one person is doing 50K or more, and four team mates doing less than 10K can be problematic, the bigger issue is players not understanding HOW to run the map. And this isn't just an ISA problem. GGA, KSA, CSA, etc. all have this issue. But since they will never place any sort of restriction or ability cap on who can que for these runs, many players will simply opt for pre-mades.
I would also like to add that in the new skill system, we can spec into boosting team effectiveness via Coordination Protocols. combine this with the Ico set, Tactical fleet, and the other sources of buffs and debuffs that existed prior to 11.5, and what you are left with is a team that can do dish-out and survive more damage, which leads to better numbers.