Wasn't there an entire Star Trek TV series dedicated to the moral grey areas of who is good or bad actions by any party? Think it was called DS9 and ran for a long time.
Wasn't there an entire Star Trek TV series dedicated to the moral grey areas of who is good or bad actions by any party? Think it was called DS9 and ran for a long time.
Again, never more than opinion. DS9 never flatly stated "these are the bad guys." S31 is the ultimate writer's plot device; bad and wrong when it suits the story but justifiable and necesary in another circumstance. Point is, they are exactly what you said, "grey." So scripting them to perform bad actions like target players (since we're all protagonists) removes them from "grey" and makes them bad.
I'm sorry I know you hate when I edit comments. I don't mean to aggravate your Asperger's.
I disagree with your post and think they should target players, as I don't quite see the player as a protagonist, especially after committing what amounts to genocide in previous story arcs.
Still would like to see S31 targeting players in social zones.
So would I, but I think players would need to see the mechanic at work before they'll support it.
What if there was a mission a character could opt in for being hunted for 24 in-game, on-planet hours as a Tosk by the Hunter race similar to the Hirogen? That would allow for testing of the player-hunting mechanics before a go-live for Section 31 assassination squads.
On the other hand some of the best Star Trek stories revolve around the fact that the Federation's ideals are occasionally completely unworkable, arbitrary, and horribly destructive. The Prime Directive is pretty much a benchmark for rigid jackassery bordering on the outright genocidally murderous. And it emerges in the setting as some unassailable gospel that cannot be questioned or challenged in any form short of career-wrecking defiance. Its like the ultimate bit of anthropomorphic chauvinism: If your race doesn't have warp drive, TRIBBLE you. Not because warp drive is some obvious moral boundary, but because we have warp drive and it's the thing that makes us feel important. If your precious diversity lead your civilization to ANY OTHER PATH, meh, let them rot in their own filth. It's wrong to help them in any way.
But that is not the reason for the Prime Directive. The reason is that if you interfere with their affairs before they are ready for warp travel (and inevitably face other species), their race will likely suffer from it.
Of course, there are dumb applications of the Prime Directive - like unwilling to save a species that is going to die out if you don't? You're not protecting them from anything.
But beyond that - our history tells us that when two cultures meet, the one with (sufficiently) superior technology and organization quickly dominates it, destroying its culture and quite likely also exploits them. (Exhibited well by Africa, Australia and America.)
The Prime Directive is basically not made because "they" don't deserve having the cool toys, but because we don't deserve their planets. It might point out that the Federation does not necessarily believe that all Federation members and officers are morally and ethically superior to what we had a few centuries ago.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The basis for having S31 target the player because the player "commits what amounts to genocide" is again nothing more than subjective. You want to build a skyscraper on quicksand. Doesn't work.
As a potential 'season'/'episode' I think Section 31 targeting high level characters could be interesting (a bit like your 'nemesis' from Cryptics hero game). The rational could be something like "High level admirals of starfleet have become increasingly close to certain dangerous factions".
Perhaps a random Section 31 ship/person could appear now and then and 'challenge' you (perhaps it could even be wrapped up in some diplomacy and ability to talk your way out of it). Perhaps the 'season'/'episode' could introduce them as some kind of nemesis which is then introduced game wide.
Anyhoo, there's a few things that could be done to make Section 31 an interesting part of the game.
The basis for having S31 target the player because the player "commits what amounts to genocide" is again nothing more than subjective. You want to build a skyscraper on quicksand. Doesn't work.
I think it's fair to see that it is objectively wrong.
Maybe "The Breach" would have a point of saying it could be considered as genocide, if there are mostly civilians on the ship we destroy and it is not used for military purposes. But we know that it is for military purposes and poses a threat to us. The Voth are trying to conquer the Sphere and use those Omega Molecules, which are extremely dangerous to us (and everyone else, basically.)
But generally speaking, killing enemy soldiers is the ugly reality of war and what we expect to happen.
Killing civilians and trying to eradicate their entire species would be genocide.
But you're pretty much always allowed self-defense. If the last person of his species is trying to kill you, you can kill him in self-defense, without this being genocide.
And of course, Section 31 is not exactly the right group to complain about genocide. They tried to kill all the Founders, after all.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I found the discourse above on whether Section 31 is evil or not quite entertaining. But the problem with them assassinating players is that they would never do it in 'social' zones - these people are the ones who put a knife through your eye when you're asleep* or remotely tweak a replicator to zap you dead when you grab your raktijino. Never would they confront you in a public space, because Section 31 does not exist... Also, I find that Section 31 not existing far more comforting - it makes the rest of the Federation feel like they can uphold their values whilst genuine threats can be dealt with quietly and without fuss. Now, if they happened to walk past you and without warning 'bump' you with a hypo that put you asleep for a few minutes of game time (similar to how the Borg can temporarily assimilate you), that would be mildly amusing - def accolate worthy! But there is no defence, or explanation as to what happened (but it could have been an innoculation for a future FE...)
*When does your character sleep in STO? Seems to me that they've been awake for 2 years straight...
Im asking this because im writing a foundry mission if that clarifies things.
I think current day Section 31 would try an assassinate temporal agents (particularly Fed temp agents) - because they cant know or control those people, whose actions may weaken the Federation and there is a fleeting opportunity to put the Federation on a stronger path... Particularly if the intervention appears to weaken the Federation (despite 'correcting' the timeline).
I found the discourse above on whether Section 31 is evil or not quite entertaining. But the problem with them assassinating players is that they would never do it in 'social' zones - these people are the ones who put a knife through your eye when you're asleep* or remotely tweak a replicator to zap you dead when you grab your raktijino. Never would they confront you in a public space, because Section 31 does not exist... Also, I find that Section 31 not existing far more comforting - it makes the rest of the Federation feel like they can uphold their values whilst genuine threats can be dealt with quietly and without fuss. Now, if they happened to walk past you and without warning 'bump' you with a hypo that put you asleep for a few minutes of game time (similar to how the Borg can temporarily assimilate you), that would be mildly amusing - def accolate worthy! But there is no defence, or explanation as to what happened (but it could have been an innoculation for a future FE...)
*When does your character sleep in STO? Seems to me that they've been awake for 2 years straight...
Im asking this because im writing a foundry mission if that clarifies things.
I think current day Section 31 would try an assassinate temporal agents (particularly Fed temp agents) - because they cant know or control those people, whose actions may weaken the Federation and there is a fleeting opportunity to put the Federation on a stronger path... Particularly if the intervention appears to weaken the Federation (despite 'correcting' the timeline).
Section 31 vs temporal agents could be interesting Especially since, beside Bashir, I can't think of anyone else who would be able to effectively fight S31.
Though most temporal incursions we've seen in the game have strengthened the Federation or were used as a weapon against its enemies.
_________
As for targeting the player character in social zones: I don't think this would work, for the same reasons PvP in social zones wouldn't work. There's not much you can do to counter them and you'd have to be on your guard as long as you're logged in. Besides, a lot of powers like medical generators or rerouting power to shields don't even work in social zones. If the use of our abilities were allowed there, social zones would be a mess. And it's not what social zones are meant for anyway.
I must admit, a while ago, during the Iconian War, I wondered why we didn't see anything of this war beside the episodes and queues, and why Quinn hadn't be murdered in his sleep yet, why no assasination attempts were made against my characters while on the bridge etc. Perhaps it's for the best that such things didn't happen, as it would completely change the function of social zones which are meant to be a safe haven.
Section 31 is that morally grey area as stated before. They'll do whatever it takes to protect the federation, even assassinate it's own citizens if it will ultimately serve the greater good. Right now, there is one thing in the game that is more dangerous than any Iconian or temporal threat, and that's me the player character. I can easily see Section 31 authorizing an assassination on the player character, if not declaring open season on them.
It'd make for an interesting season arc if nothing else. No threats to the federation, no big external bad guy to fight, just a bunch of folks in the shadows who think you're a threat, doing whatever it takes to neutralize that threat.
Comments
Again, never more than opinion. DS9 never flatly stated "these are the bad guys." S31 is the ultimate writer's plot device; bad and wrong when it suits the story but justifiable and necesary in another circumstance. Point is, they are exactly what you said, "grey." So scripting them to perform bad actions like target players (since we're all protagonists) removes them from "grey" and makes them bad.
I'm sorry I know you hate when I edit comments. I don't mean to aggravate your Asperger's.
So would I, but I think players would need to see the mechanic at work before they'll support it.
What if there was a mission a character could opt in for being hunted for 24 in-game, on-planet hours as a Tosk by the Hunter race similar to the Hirogen? That would allow for testing of the player-hunting mechanics before a go-live for Section 31 assassination squads.
Of course, there are dumb applications of the Prime Directive - like unwilling to save a species that is going to die out if you don't? You're not protecting them from anything.
But beyond that - our history tells us that when two cultures meet, the one with (sufficiently) superior technology and organization quickly dominates it, destroying its culture and quite likely also exploits them. (Exhibited well by Africa, Australia and America.)
The Prime Directive is basically not made because "they" don't deserve having the cool toys, but because we don't deserve their planets. It might point out that the Federation does not necessarily believe that all Federation members and officers are morally and ethically superior to what we had a few centuries ago.
Perhaps a random Section 31 ship/person could appear now and then and 'challenge' you (perhaps it could even be wrapped up in some diplomacy and ability to talk your way out of it). Perhaps the 'season'/'episode' could introduce them as some kind of nemesis which is then introduced game wide.
Anyhoo, there's a few things that could be done to make Section 31 an interesting part of the game.
Maybe "The Breach" would have a point of saying it could be considered as genocide, if there are mostly civilians on the ship we destroy and it is not used for military purposes. But we know that it is for military purposes and poses a threat to us. The Voth are trying to conquer the Sphere and use those Omega Molecules, which are extremely dangerous to us (and everyone else, basically.)
But generally speaking, killing enemy soldiers is the ugly reality of war and what we expect to happen.
Killing civilians and trying to eradicate their entire species would be genocide.
But you're pretty much always allowed self-defense. If the last person of his species is trying to kill you, you can kill him in self-defense, without this being genocide.
And of course, Section 31 is not exactly the right group to complain about genocide. They tried to kill all the Founders, after all.
What you say?!
Well, that one works too. lol nice for a combo breaker.
Ok we got one for the player...
Any other group or person?
Im asking this because im writing a foundry mission if that clarifies things.
*When does your character sleep in STO? Seems to me that they've been awake for 2 years straight...
I think current day Section 31 would try an assassinate temporal agents (particularly Fed temp agents) - because they cant know or control those people, whose actions may weaken the Federation and there is a fleeting opportunity to put the Federation on a stronger path... Particularly if the intervention appears to weaken the Federation (despite 'correcting' the timeline).
Section 31 vs temporal agents could be interesting
Though most temporal incursions we've seen in the game have strengthened the Federation or were used as a weapon against its enemies.
_________
As for targeting the player character in social zones: I don't think this would work, for the same reasons PvP in social zones wouldn't work. There's not much you can do to counter them and you'd have to be on your guard as long as you're logged in. Besides, a lot of powers like medical generators or rerouting power to shields don't even work in social zones. If the use of our abilities were allowed there, social zones would be a mess. And it's not what social zones are meant for anyway.
I must admit, a while ago, during the Iconian War, I wondered why we didn't see anything of this war beside the episodes and queues, and why Quinn hadn't be murdered in his sleep yet, why no assasination attempts were made against my characters while on the bridge etc. Perhaps it's for the best that such things didn't happen, as it would completely change the function of social zones which are meant to be a safe haven.
It'd make for an interesting season arc if nothing else. No threats to the federation, no big external bad guy to fight, just a bunch of folks in the shadows who think you're a threat, doing whatever it takes to neutralize that threat.