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Can we please get threat control moved to the first or second tactical unlock?
pwstolemyname
Member Posts: 1,417 Arc User
Science focused tactical captains are going to want this to reduce threat as much as tactical captains will, and enginears will want it to increase threat. Honestly every one should want threat control, it should be the first unlock on the tactical tree to keep it in reach of every one.
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Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Hmm...Maybe that was due to a misunderstanding in how it worked? Now that players understand it better, poll it and see where they'd like it to end up, perhaps.
What would one thing that captains want the most of when investing a lot into Tactical? Would it be RNG bolstering? Aggro manipulation? Hangar support? I'd think that only moderately- or lowly-invested tactical captains would be proficient in the aggro or hangar stuff, personally.
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You think for a lvl 60 captain, a low level captain does not need to manage the threat.
They also don't need 1% crit chance or 5% crit severity. to a low level captain that 1% or 5% isn't compounded with much else and is consequently unnoticeable.
But if you disagree and feel they would find that noticeable consider this, the level 50+ who wants nothing more then to be the best tank they can be, but not take so much tac will always be locked out of this ability, and always be unhappy they don't have it. While a newbie is already gaining new and exciting things every hour or two as they level, and isn't going to spend a moment worrying over the fact they are not using their threat control unlock.
If you really really want to keep crit chance/severity at the first two unlocks in tactical then I could live with switching the threat/stealth unlock with the sectorspace/transwarp unlock on the science track more happily, because I can totally live without those, however the whole reason sectorspace/transwarp is where it is, is to help the newbies too so if that's the crux of your concern I doubt you will find it more palatable.
Honestly this is why we need to stick these things in a pool and just unlock points along the career bars which we can use on what we want. As long as abilities are in a fixed position some one is always going to be unhappy. But I don't think cryptic want to redo the interface, and I want threat control so I should get my turn to whinge about it.
After trying to convert my current holodeck build to a build in the new system on tribble I found I've had to severely focus on tactical to unlock the extra threat than I otherwise would. Ultimately compromising other tanky options to push tac to get the extra threat. Tanks shouldn't need a heavy tac focus to gain full threat control.
At minimum it should be moved down 1 rank of unlocks.
I actually would be in favour of splitting the threat. I gather the reason for the high unlock requirement is the large reduction in threat when threatening stance is off. Keep that component at that tier but make the +threat a lower tiered unlock so true tanks can actually get and use it without compromising themselves.
Creating tension between those choices would be the entire point.
Or, for the 472nd time, no, you can't have both both [Beam CrtH] and [Beam CrtD] on the same ship. Not happening. Ever.
I predicted that if you changed it, this request would occur
I was thinking that if really everyone would want to have it, no one gets anythnig out of it, because everyone deals more threat. But of course, due to the way Threatening Stance works, that isn't true - only people that want to generate more threat will do more, and those that don't want to will cause less.
But that said - if the tactical-focused builds that deal damage but don't want to tank all take it to lower their threat, it's still a net win for the tanks.
So it seems it might not be that important where it is. Tanks have a good chance to benefit from it, even if they don't take it themselves.
I would be willing to argue that the Energy Weapon Buff Pick however could really move to the last spot in the tactical track (before the Ultimate ability). It is - and will likely always be - the most desirable in the track, since most builds rely on energy weapons. But it will cost people in other categories, which makes tanks (and healing or crowd control/debuff builds) more valuable alongside the DPS focused uber monsters.
This is a very good point, we have to think of the leveling processing as well. Threat control in the first teir does nothing for captains that are in the process of leveling.
Honestly, this is a tough one, because there is no real good place for it. It should be further back in the chain since it's useless before end game building, but as the OP said, putting it that far back puts it out of reach for many builds.
While I certainly understand the argument, I have to say it's better left where it is.
I don't think the new player argument holds weight. A new player is just an old player waiting to happen. They are unlikely to be frustrated by a lack of utility for this skill while levelling, they keep unlocking new things after all, ships, items, bridge officers the doff system and so on. Plenty of distractions.
But once they hit 50+ which lets be honest, doesn't take long at all, they face the same frustration with the skills placement as those who have been at max level for years. Therefore this placement negatively effects new players just as much as old ones, lets face it, reaching 50 and getting all the points isn't exactly going to take a whole weekend.
As some one with a grater science focus, then engineering and grater engineering focus then tactical I wont make it far enough up the tac tree to reach ability 3, ability 2 is as far as I go. That means that when I want agro I wont have it because those with this will have it, and when I don't want agro I will have it because those with this will be avoiding the agro.
I would rather they got rid of the skill entirely then leave it where it is. Some of my builds entirely rely upon having the attention of all of the things, and in the current system I can get that. Other builds rely on not being the focus of all attention and with the current system I can get that too. The reason I can make that choice is that I have the same threat generating potential as every one else, and by managing It with tactics and equipment I can push myself one way or the other to meet the needs of my strategy.
But when this is live I wont be on an equal threat generation footing to every one else. The placement of this ability is going to make me one of the characters for whom 'lose nothing' dose not hold true, and if it effects me, its going to effect others to.
So If moving it back isn't an option please axe it and put something else in its place.
Leveling is something you do for days.
Playing is something you do for years.
Design decisions should reflect that.
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Basically upon reaching the first unlock i get to choose from Projectile, Energy Weapons, Threat-Stealth or Hangar pet skills. I would also like to point out that forcing people to choose one or the other to achieve the balanced builds the developers want us so badly to use is only treating the symptom of the problem not the problem itself. But that's just my opinion.
Threat generation is too important a mechanic to lock a large section of the player base out of. Its not equivalent to a bonus 2% crit chance, or +2 power points. Threat generation is important to any one looking to tank, use reciprocity or use feedback abilities, and not all these people will want so many points in tactical in order to get that threat.
Reducing threat gen is also an important capability, but not so important as the ability to generate threat, so at least removing the bonus to threat gen from this unlock would be an improvement over what we have now.
I'd personally bump one of the weapon boosts back to the fourth unlock and move the other two down. You're going to upset someone here no matter what, though...
This statement:
... is just as true as:
STO Veterans are born from a willingness to accept the experiences being given to them, and that acceptance is generally born of understanding and/or a willingness to learn. A more understandable and "newb-friendly" system will (hopefully) improve acceptance, and create even more Veteran players down the line. But you can't build that house without a solid foundation.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
A New Player won't become a veteran if the leveling process is frustrating and they lose interest. The design team has the unenviable task of trying to design a system that works for new players and veterans a like, it's a daunting task to put it mildly.
Outside of doing something like making it a passive unlock that everyone gets after 'X' number of points spent, I really don't see a good solution here. At least not one that appeases everyone.
Your right that the new player experience is important, without a sufficiently positive new player experience there will be no old players. I just don't see that the impact of this on new players is so large.
What dose having a minor increase to crit severity or chance do for a new player? Apart from seeing it in the skill selection menu they arnt actually going to be able to notice a performance difference from having it at all. It only becomes significant once they reach level 50 and start compounding its effects with other bonuses.
How many players bellow 30 are rocking vulnerability consoles, a set of romulan operatives, or even far enough down the skill tree to get the captain bonuses to crit? None. From a new player perspective this is no more impactful then the threat generation option.
As veteran players, or in Borts case as a developer, I don't think we are genuinely seeing this from the new player perspective when we argue for threat to be further up the skill tree.
A new player doesn't see the threat control option and think 'I am not going to use this until I am 50.' A new player is thinking, 'this is an MMO where do I want to fit in the trinity?' They haven't learnt how little relevance the trinity has to STO yet and they are thinking about whether they want to tank heal or DPS at end game.
When your installing and patching a new mmo and waiting excitedly to play it, your far more likely to be looking at screenshots and info regarding what your character is going to be able to do, then what they can do off the bat. New players are typically thinking about their end game from before they even get to character creation. The levelling process is fun because every step in it is a step toward your destination, which I guarantee you is something new players are thinking about. Heck cryptic know this, that moment in the fed tutorial when we see the vesta is tailor made to acknowledge the fact that new players are always looking toward their end game.
So putting the threat control in position one or two isn't going to bother new players, its a step toward the end game they are looking forward to. And not having a crit bonus in position one or two isn't going to impact their performance in any way they are going to be able to detect either.
I know we are trying really hard to put ourselves in a new players shoes and try and see the game from there point of view when we put threat control in position three. And its too cryptics credit that they listened to that feedback and moved the ability. But I really do think the vets pushing this are failing to understand a new players perception of the game.
I haven't been a new player myself since STO came out, but I regularly invite new players into the game, from where I work (we have a high employee turnover, I make lots of new friends) and when they talk about the game as new players, they are always talking about what they are working towards, the ships they want, the role they want to fill. They are always looking toward the endgame. I never hear them complain about what they do or don't have while levelling, because the destination is what enthuses them.
A low level pool, a medium level pool, and a high level pool. Taking so many skills like in the current system to reach the next marker would give you a point. You can spend these points to unlock a skill from either the pool it is associated with, or a LOWER pool (but not a higher pool).
So you'd have a total of nine pools- or possibly six, if you cut it down to two pools per profession, and you could stick stuff like hangar skills or threat control in the lower pool. That would give players the ability to, as newbies, ignore the stuff that doesn't mean anything to them- and as experienced players, have more variance to possible builds without being locked into specific setups.
You could retain the existing lockout for stuff you like weap/torp crith/critd so people don't just pick the most optimal whatever.
I'm short on time, but I'll do a more expansive proposal when I get back later.
My character Tsin'xing
I don't know the math, but raw dps and distance to target are other ways threat is affected.
These threat boosting skills are designed for those that haven't or can't spec highly into dps as they focus on resists/healing/sci skills, stuff that might make them effective at taking a pounding but can't naturally gain the threat required to exploit their strengths.
Which is why the requirement to earning +threat should be lowered if it's to remain in the tac track.
FYI with 4/9 spent on holodeck threat skill and moderate dps levels (25K typically) it's rare for me not to gain threat control. If I don't, switching to attract fire aura usually regains it.
I quite like these ideas of having a pool you simply choose from as you earn points.
I love using flight deck cruisers, so having the pet skill appeals, but I'm never going to spec so highly into tac to earn the pet boost unlock.
Point taken. And I've been an ardent supporter of the revamp changes obvious drive to make a ridiculously math-heavy system simpler for new users to grasp. Fact is I'm leveling a new captain on Live now and having to deal with the current/old system is really irksome, knowing there's a more granular process on the way. And I'm about the most math-heavy guy you can imagine.
On the other hand I think the MMO genre comes with an intrinsic acceptance that you're auditioning a game experience that if you enjoy, you'll be sticking around with for years. Completely new players are hitting these low-requirement decision gates during the "Ooo, shiny" stage of the game where I think the bulk of their attention is focused on story content that's completely new and fresh to them. There's just not the same emphasis on "the perfect/Correct build" back then. The low accessibility choices MATTER to veteran players, while I think new players will simply shrug their shoulders, tap the box for whichever sounds cooler in the moment, and not look at it again for 1-2 months.
I think one approach might be to recognize no matter what order you put the decisions gates in, bad decisions are going to get made by new players. Setting aside the larger debate about the accessibility of full re-spec's does Cryptic lose anything by allowing people to change their decision gate choices freely outside of combat, or perhaps only while in a safe area like Q'onos, Earth Spacedock, or Deep Space Nine?
"I'm back at home port, I think I'll try more HP on my pets instead of more damage. ((click)) Wow, that was painless. I can't wait to venture forth and try that out!"
Particularly if your build is gonna give you the Final Ability+1 (26) and not Final Ability+3 (28). Being able to try out each of the three modifiers or swap between them if you feel you're really slick with the nuances would be an enormous boon to veteran players.
Some of my past weapons would like to have a talk with you about [crth] and [crtd] being on the same item
Jokes aside though I really don't see why giving that choice to the players is such a bad choice. I'm not saying let them unlock all the perks. Leave it at 4 perks like it currently is, but let us choose which ones we take at what perk unlock. Even if they want to make [crth] and [crtd] exclusive im fine with that. That honestly was not even my thought behind this. I would still like them to open up the option to select each unlock from the pool of options for that path. I fly non-hanger based ships for the most part. So for myself making me choose between Hangar Weaponry, and Pet Health is nothing more than a slap in the face if I drop enough points into the Tactical Tree to unlock the 4th selection choice. That being said though for a ship focused around the hanger they may actually take those selections over other options earlier in the tree.
Nothing really against Borticus. I am sure he, and cryptic do not mean insult with what they have created here. That being said though there are options that cover basically all ships/play styles. However being forced to choose between useless options for ones choice of ship/play style is nothing more than insulting. All the perks seem to be fairly solid for one play style or another. The way its presented just seems to be kinda pointless.
What about a 4th unlock bar? A White grey one that advances no matter where we put our points.
Move sectorspace/transwarp there, along with the pet choice and the thret control choice. Split the stealth boost from the threat control boost and combine it instead with the stelth detection choice from the science track. (I think the choice is less meaningfull as it is currently a; 'if you pve take this, if you pvp take this' no brainer).
So that gives us a travel choice, a pet choice, a stelth choice and a threat choice for every one regardless of where they put their points. I think this makes sence as they are choices that the lack of which might cause people to feel they shouldnt bother trying different play styles. They are also, with the exception of pets, more mechanical then the much simpler +2 this or +10 that choices.
Should I pvp? nah i wont spot vapers. Should i get a carrier? Nah i have nothing to boost pets. Should I try a realy squishy science build? Nah all the tacs are running negative threat, i will die.
These thoughts may be invalidity but most players wont test them.
Of course some minor +10 skill choices can fill the spaces left on the origional unlock bars so no problems there. The only real question is what to pear with the threat choice? Maybe a raming speed enhancment? That ability gets only a little use curently.
The grey bar could also be used to indicate how close to a new captain ability unlock we are. Not sure about that, it might make it look a little buisy.