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The way respec works under the new system...
rickpaaa
Member Posts: 637 Arc User
Because skill respec is so expensive, it should be like the old system in that we can see all skills in place before we commit to accept them.
Under this new interface, we can only survey all of the chosen skills after we have committed to them. This may be a hardship, and discourage people from playing.
Thanks!
Under this new interface, we can only survey all of the chosen skills after we have committed to them. This may be a hardship, and discourage people from playing.
Thanks!
Member since December 2009
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I mean it's not unprecedented as they did it for the trait revamp.
Extra, forced respec sales by taking advantage of anyone who makes a misclick
FREE for everyone ... and yes, I am a LTS saying this !
Lifetimer here too.
So basically, like it is now?
Not really. Like it is now on Holodeck, many people make a very generalist build and stay with that. Their builds work well when flying an escort or a cruiser. The only differing part is their intended role they want to play. A tank requires different skills than a dps escort.
With this new system on Tribble, generalist builds seem to be much harder to achieve and it's fairly obvious that Cryptic wants captains to specialize in the ship they are currently flying. Which I agree with. It's a good thing really. The 5 dollar pay wall each time is not.
I disagree. I like being able to make hybrid builds. I don't care for being boxed in to playing a specific role. I like to strategize and be able to fill in as both a heavy hitter or a tank if needed. Taking away the option to truly customize on that level frankly leaves little interest, enjoyment or incentive to continue playing (not to mention spend money on STO). In all honesty, I see the new system being likely to do more harm than good to the game. I'm also not a fan of dumbing it down the way they have.
Telling players they have to fit into a cookie-cutter role, instead of letting players decide what works best for them, really takes the fun and in some cases, the challenge out of the game.
I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with here. I'm all for Hybrid builds. I only used the term Generalist instead of hybrid.
On Holodeck, my main Science Captain jumps seamlessly from Pilot Escort to Scimitar to Dyson Warbird to Paradox to Faeht Warbird. The only thing I have to change around are my traits and individual ship loadouts. Once this new skill system goes live, I'm pretty sure I won't be able to do that. The hybrid build I currently have won't transfer to the new system. Now, players like myself will have to respec when using certain ships or play styles. This is going to happen fast and often whether we like it or not. Continuing to charge for it is bad.
Where are you getting this from, because that's not at all what I can see. Generalist builds are exactly as easy to build as before (if not more). For example, the test build I made has 15 points into eng, 16 into science, and 15 into tac, and seems to get me basically everything I had before and then some (notably in additional science skills). I think people are really stuck on assuming that the goal is to get an ultimate, but as far as I can tell that's a trap.
It's very unlikely they would take old respec tokens away, but there is precedent for making them moot with the trait revamp.
Any such tokens that you already have access to will remain yours, and will still work under the new system.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Thank You, I asked this question way back in the Tribble Official Thread and never got an answer.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
- if they choose wrong abilities, not knowing game mechanics yet (new players)
- if they were min-maxing their build (endagme players who NEED this extra point in something_.
Basically as silver player running Fleet T6 ship and stuff like Plasmonic Leech, Kemo, Inspirational leader on board (and small armada of lockbox and C-store ships) I used token 2 times in 3+ years. And I was able to fly anything from garage without feeling of "lost potential"
Now things change...
Nearly all skills are useful, and on top of that I need to make hard choices to select abilities fitting my current build - because there are no longer "universal optimal" builds. I need to pay for respec or play half-broken build. Amazing game experience...
If I buy, for example, Carrier, I need an extra token to make use of this ship. And another token to return to my previous build. If I, for example, wish to fly Cruiser, Escort, carrier and Sci ship one day (considering I've already paid ~$100-$150 for them) making full use of them, I need to spend $20 this day - and unlike ship purchases, services unlocks etc. NOTHING I paid for, stay on my account (because I will need to buy another respecs tomorrow...)
Basically, under new system:
1. Flying different ship classes without significant loose of performance is VERY expensive
2. Buying C-store ships from different classes becomes very unattractive, since each ship to fly on full performance cost $5 extra... every time You pick it. It's huge cost increase, efficiently keeping players away of
3. All new experimentation potential is wasted, since nobody is going to pay $10 (respec+return to previous build) for comparing, for example, Gravity Well vs Energy Siphon (both use 3 points in different trees...).
Removing Genetic Refrequencers was excellent decision for a reason...
Again, WHY do people see the skill tree this way? What is it about the tree that is causing you to perceive that you are "punished" for a generalist build? I haven't seen anyone truly articulate why they feel this way. I have a character I started back in the launch headstart, and I think he's still got at least one of his respecs left from leveling up - and that character does fine in any ship I choose to put him in, so I don't understand why people think they need to shift all their skills around to change ships.
Heck, frankly I don't even know why people think they are supposed to spec for a "ship" at all - that's not how this game has worked for a long, long time. Spec for the abilities you want to use - and that's even easier now with many of the science skills being consolidated - and then build around those abilities. Honestly, with consoles, boff seating, specializations and all the different flavors of traits we have now, I don't understand why people think captain skills are the key to a spec.
My philosophy is this: skill your captain as a generalist, then use the stuff that's relatively easy to swap around (consoles, traits, specializations) to specialize from there, so that you can be flexible enough for just about any ship that you want to run. If your concern is that you don't want a generalist captain for whatever reason, that's fine, but a) I'm not sure why wanting a specialist captain should absolve you of the obvious downside of such a spec (loss of flexibility) and b) I'm not sure at all how the skill revamp makes it any harder to change specs than it already was.
It just seems like people are gut reacting to the revamp without bothering to investigate why they feel the way they do, or if their feelings are even valid in the first place.
First of all, I don't have any issues with skilltree itself (that applies to both old and new way). My problem is respec cost - that I am forced to pay every time I want to get out of my build "safe zone" (read @deathray38 's post).
And yes, I totally understand that I can complete the content regardless whether I have 1 or 3 points in Hull Capacity or Exotic Particle Generators. However, many people have the mentality that they want to be best (at least to the limit of their capabilities) at what they do, at least I have it and I know several more who have it.
When we compare the old and new systems, we see that both allowed to have roughly ~50% of all available skills. However, with the old system, we had many "filler" skills, such as Starship Sensors or Stealth that weren't useful (at least not for any of my builds), so I could ignore those and apply skillpoints by having multiple different builds in mind, without feeling I really miss something important. Now, when the revamp will hit, we will have much more meaningful choices, that means when I really feel I'd like to make the best and most efficient choices, I can do it only having 1 particular build in mind.
And Cryptic could change it by just either making respecs free/cost small amount of dilithium and/or offering us skill loadout slots in C-Store. No changes to skilltree itself needed.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Yeah, okay, that's what I thought. Sorry, but "The skill tree is better now, so I feel worse about being forced to choose options" is, if anything, a sign that the tree is doing EXACTLY what it is intended to do - make skill choices feel more meaningful. The idea of endless free respecs just undermines that goal. Moreover, the way the space skill tree is laid out now you can have the same effectiveness your character currently has, with a little left over to try some (but not all) of the new goodies. Players are really only gaining with the skill tree in terms of character effectiveness, so the complaints about feeling like a play style is being "punished" are simply not defensible rationally. Being upset that the skill tree provides opportunity for additional player agency seems silly to me, and if the change is making things like respecs seem like a more desirable purchase because the perceived desirability of the skills went up, well that seems like it's GOOD for the players, since the price of a respec didn't change, but the utility of it arguably went up. The complaint seems to be "How dare Cryptic make me be more invested in my choices as a player and/or be more interested in a product they've offered for a long time but I ignored because it wasn't worth it in the past!"
I'm ok with buying stuff in C-Store, but if I pay, I wish to HAVE something. Ship class change enforcing use of paid respecs is paying for NOTHING, while it is significantly increasing cost of C-Store ships effectively making buying them unattractive (If I wish to buy something and fly it for some time, then return to my primary ship, it either cost me $10 extra, or I will fly under performing ship for some time).
As simple as possible:
Why should I buy 3000 Zen sci ship, if I know it will either be underperforming, or it will require extra investments? Seriously, I prefer spending extra $$$ on another ship, which will stay in my garage permanently, instead of one-time skills adjustment (which is also making half of my garage unusable*)...
*yes, You are paying for making your current ship useless... unless You pay once again. It's sick.
The skilltree went better if we are only talking about single build perspective, I totally agree. However, what I'm trying to tell is that current respec cost is, in my opinion, counterproductive if they want more revenue and have more players to use more diverse content. I'm not going to pay for a respec token anyway, but I want to be the best in what I do, so I just pick the best options available for my single build and stick with it.
Yet, I would totally buy C-Store Skill Loadout slots if those were available. Not to mention if I had easier access to different builds (according to my own mindset), I'd be more interested in buying different ships as well.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Completely broken logic. Entire idea of paid respec is broken, and only reason it wasn't affecting gameplay was extremely limited choice of viable builds (as I said, in 3+ years I used this option 2 times). After revamp, we will get tons of options and "all round optimal build" will be no more. Basically every ship class have dedicated skills, required for this class and useless for other classes (pets skills, science skills etc.). If you fly certain ship, you require these skills or Your build is half-broken. If you spend a lot $$$ on different T6 ships, Your situation is really sad, since ~75% your garage need extra investment before You pick it up (and YES, You need to respec, because You don't pay $30 to be underdog in STF/PvP)
Seriously, I am sure, first result of Season 11.5 will be massive drop in starship sales. Players will stick to one build and it will make most of ships unusable for them.
I get it. You've drank the koolaid. How can someone rationalize the need for a 5 dollar respec system? Because it was already there? Well, before FTP, it wasn't there, take that!
Moving on..... I'm actually enjoying the prospect of the new skill system and by the very words of Cryptic, they want people to jump out of their comfort zone and experiment. This will not happen if people are charged each time they are encouraged to do just that.
New System = Good
New System mixing with outdated C-Store price = Bad
This isn't even a nickel and dime thing. 5 dollars adds up fast especially when the very reason they are doing it, and they said so in the initial blog post...
"With these new options spread across all Engineering, Science and Tactical sections of the Space Skill Tree, we anticipate players feeling many compelling reasons to step outside of their usual comfort zone and perhaps even exploring new ways of progressing their captain and starship."
Wishful thinking when stepping out of the comfort zone requires that you pay, and then pay again to swap back after experimenting.
See, I take issue with your basic assumption here. You don't have to respec if you buy a new ship, you're being hyperbolic.
The fact is that the way the spec tree works is this: The tac skills increase weapon damage (and now pet powers). Weapon damage will always be useful for all ships, all the time, but frankly you don't need (and probably don't want) all of the options at once. For example, for some builds, taking bonus accuracy is probably not that important, because you get enough accuracy from traits or weapon mods that you don't need it on your skills as well. Since you can probably just take those weapons and traits (or at least most of them) and load them into your new ship, there's no reason that you should feel a need to change your spec. If you want to change something so substantially that you are effectively looking for a new character, why not just make a new character? You'll say "because I don't want to grind up new epic gear" or something like that, except, as I just pointed out, if you spec intelligently around your current gear that's not a problem because your gear stays useful. Alternately, if you're changing to a new play style such that your old gear simply won't work anymore, well then you're going to have to grind the new gear anyway, you may as well do it on a new character.
The Eng tree is similarly generally useful - extra hull, better hull heals, damage resistance, and power levels are things that ALL ships want, and all ships need to spec into. Again, though, while it might feel awesome to get ALL of that stuff, it's worth thinking about how other parts of your spec enter into the calculation - if, like me, you use the pilot specialization "Attack Pattern Expertise" to get a rapidly recharging store of ablative bonus hp, then you should know that those bonus hp don't benefit from your hull's DR numbers, so that might not be as useful a spec for you. Alternately, if you already run some of the awesome fleet armor consoles etc, you might find that skilling into DR doesn't do you much good because with your gear and BOFF ability selections you're already up against the diminishing returns. And again, if your changes are going so far as to make is so that your spec simply doesn't work at all, because you've changed so much about your character, aren't you just better off rolling an alt to begin with?
Science is a little more interesting, because science has always been more about tweaking specific boff abilities than the other two skill trees were (especially now that powers like batteries or stealth have been moved to unlocks, and others like Attack Patterns are simply considered maxed by default). This is pretty much the only area I can see people feeling like they really have to tweak because they changed ship - but even then it's not really because they switched ships, it's because they switched BOFF abilities that's the real issue. So, you have two choices - either decide which sci powers you want to use, and spec exclusively for those and then build your sci BOFFs around those powers, or spend 7-9 points in Sci to max the skills (9 if you want the control dmg res debuff and drain dot powers). That's frankly not too much to ask, since even if you had sheilds "maxed" on the old system, that's still only the heal and capacity skills - the regen/hardness skills didn't exist before, so you're not "losing" anything relative to your old spec by not choosing them, and, like with the other generic ship improvement skills, you don't need (and really shouldn't want) to max all of those anyway, because it's inefficient.
The reality is that there is virtually no situation where you should feel like you can't perform with a new ship, and if you DO end up in a situation like that, but you REALLY want to buy the new ship anyway, why isn't it the case that you should just roll up an alt? Why should we devalue every character choice in the game so that you can get the flexibility you want without sacrificing the hyperspecialization you think you need (or vice versa). I understand why people want this, but it's childish - I want someone to invent fried butter ice cream tacos with bacon infused shells, but that doesn't mean that I should get it, or that it's good for me.
Now, one last note - I can foresee people saying "I don't want to grind out another set of reputations and specializations just to get my alt to a "playable" level". My response to that is that's what a respec is for - you're paying $5.00 to save yourself that time. That's a good deal, when you look at it that way, and if you feel like it's not fair because it prevents you from swapping into effectively an entirely different character at a whim, that's also a good deal and a desired outcome in my book. The game will be healthier when at least some of the choices players make actually matter, and encourage players to develop some level of mastery with the system, instead of a system that encourages endless dilettante-ism from players who are never invested enough in their choices to learn how the game actually works. Right now the system is set up so that if you (say) spec into carrier pets, and I don't, that means that you've earned the edge on me in using a ship with a hanger bay, while I have the edge in flexibility when it comes to NON carrier ships. That's good, and as it should be, because it means our respective choices matter. If, instead, we can freely respec, then effectively that makes our skill choices pointless. My character gets to be just as good as yours at running carriers when I want to, and your character gets to be just as adaptable as mine, so why even bother with choosing skills in the first place?
But there is no "comfort zone" anymore! "Comfort zone" existed, because significant part of skills in old system were utterly useless (no matter the ship class and build) - effectively giving extra points to spend on actually useful skills. New system have a lot of spaceship-class specific skills, critically needed for one class and useless for another. Players cannot choose "comfort" build, they will stick to one build and one starship class (limiting, for example, zen store purchases, to ships from this class), since every EFFICIENT class change with "return" option cost $10.
Also, imagine new player who discovered mistake in his build - You think he will spend his first money on respec token, or he will get annoyed and just leave the game forever?
Respec tokens makes this system TOTAL OPPOSITE of "exploring new ways of progressing their captain and starship". Tokens are forcing players to stick to one ship class and one build, turning every change to huge and unforgiving decision.
The issue is not whether players are able to complete stuff in their ships with sub-optimal skilltrees. Of course they can, it's just going to be harder, but it's certainly doable. The issue is that there are plenty of players who don't want to be sub-optimal. Why should you be worse (I didn't say bad) in all areas when you can be great in one? You don't have that kind of mindset, but you can bet there are enough people who think just like that. Some people are not just willing to make themselves intentionally worse, just to try out new and interesting things.
Also, about having alts. In MMORPGs, people might develop some sort of alter ego feeling towards their character who they have played most with. They just don't feel as comfortable playing different toons. I can tell that I feel exactly that way towards my main character.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
There is nothing in the new skill tree that make respecs more necessary than the previous system, and in fact a lot that makes respecs less likely if you build with an eye towards things like the gear and skills you already know you use and like. That said, again, I agree that people will want more of the current skills, and thus the percieved value of a respec token is now higher, such that more might be enticed to buy it at the current (unchanged) price level. That is not Cryptic "forcing" people to respec, though. That's Cryptic increasing the value of the respec such that it's a better purchase, and I really don't understand what is so wrong with them making the skill tree have more interesting choices in it, such that the ability to experiment a bit more becomes more valuable.
The hub-bub here, to me, is basically analogous to people saying that due to the new pet buffing skills the Jupiter is now a much better deal than it used to be, which is unfair because now it makes you more likely to want to buy one, but you don't want to pay for it, so they should give it to you for free. Cryptic has added value to skill choices, and as a consequence has added value to an option that has long existed but has long been under-used. None of that means you "need" to respec any more frequently than you ever have before - it just means that you WANT to respec more, just like I WANT a Jupiter more to try out the pet buffing powers. The difference is that I don't interpret my desire to have something I don't want to pay for right now as something Cryptic has done to me, but rather I recognize it as something that's entirely my problem. Go and do likewise.
*Edit* Oh, and agnostic, I hope you didn't think your soundbite about pre-FTP was relevant to the discussion - that would make me sad, since that skill system was an entirely different animal (remember having to spec into ship types and weapon types? *brrr*), as well as the fact that when people are paying a regular subscription fee, that can change the economics of such things. Still, I think it's worth pointing out that even in most subscription games, if respecs are offered, they are generally not free. I'm not sure what it is about this game that makes you think it's uniquely necessary that there be no meaningful character build choices such that all respecs must be free, all the time, but your pithy attempts at debate notwithstanding, I don't think you really have a valid argument there.