Other than that interestingly you Support the Idea of the Skill Loudouts, yet you are against Free Respecing?
Corection: I said I'd support the idea of Skill Loadouts for Zen. Not free skill loadouts.
If i have 20-30 or more Skill Loudouts and Switch through them like a freak again and again, than i basically do respec "for free" through all the loudouts i have, so i dont understand what your Problem here is, or what the big difference is.
As long as you still have to pay for the initial Skill Loadout tokens to begin with, all would be good.
I think the biggest issue with loadouts is right now you have to make an alt to have one... Then that alt doesn't share in your ships, your traits (probably #2 on the list of things I really don't like in this game), your lobi purchases, your lockbox goodies, and your upgraded gear.
In many, many ways an extra loadout is better than an extra character slot... and would have to priced higher accordingly.
Other than that interestingly you Support the Idea of the Skill Loudouts, yet you are against Free Respecing?
Corection: I said I'd support the idea of Skill Loadouts for Zen. Not free skill loadouts.
If i have 20-30 or more Skill Loudouts and Switch through them like a freak again and again, than i basically do respec "for free" through all the loudouts i have, so i dont understand what your Problem here is, or what the big difference is.
As long as you still have to pay for the initial Skill Loadout tokens to begin with, all would be good.
look, whenever they added something new, they gave us a "few" for free, like for example drydocks, both Silver and Gold/LTS players got some (5 / 10) so it is just logical that the same would apply to a Skill Loadout System, you give Silver Player 1 additional, and Gold/LTS 2 additional Skill Loadouts for free, and if they want more, they can buy more from the C-Store, i dont see a Issue here.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event and mission rewards!!
I think the biggest issue with loadouts is right now you have to make an alt to have one... Then that alt doesn't share in your ships, your traits (probably #2 on the list of things I really don't like in this game), your lobi purchases, your lockbox goodies, and your upgraded gear.
In many, many ways an extra loadout is better than an extra character slot... and would have to priced higher accordingly.
Here i also dont see any Issues, i have 42 Characters myself, would i have less if we allready had Skill Loadouts? i dont think so, i just like to have Chars of nearly all Species, Carrers and so on and iam sure iam not the only one here.
Another Skill Loadout does not turn your Char into a Second Character.
Other than that, Pricing should be the smallest Issue, that can be thought about when they finaly decide to Implement the Skill Loadouts and the removal of the Respec Tokens, and iam sure most people are willing to pay slightly more for a Skill Loadout than they would have to pay for a Respec Token, cause you buy it ONCE and you keep it FOREVER. I woulndt have a problem paying 50% or if it has to be even twice the amount of a Respec Token for a Skill Loadout, definately worth it.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event and mission rewards!!
I've played quite a few mmos where repecs are free including ones that are buy to play. It is obvious that respecs don't sell well here, hence why they are trying to introduce a harsher skill system whch they think will increase respec sells. I've respec'd 2 times on since I started: one paid for and the other was free respec because of a one-time bug when they introduced the trait system.
It seems odd to me that a game that relies heavily on ship skill builds that this is gated, as it restricts experimentation and penalizes mistakes. One of the factors that might create problems for Cryptic by making respecs free is effectively they would be removing a subscriber perk that would need to be replaced by something else.
Someone mentioned making respecs free, and introducing skill loadout slots for zen. I think this is a great idea. Also one that can then be given to subscribers as a perk, and also imo an item that would sell much better than than a respec token. Being able to change skills on the go, or when flying different ships would likely have a positive impact on ships sells too. This way everyone is happy, and some confidence in Cryptic's direction is restored. I would buy more skill loadout slots than I ever would for respec tokens, why? For the convenience. Obviously both systems wouldn't work together so one would have to be chosen.
There's a difference between re-slotting a few Traits (which really just should be part of your loadouts), and a meta change like your entire Skills. The latter is of a different order of magnitude. If Skill respecs were free, then they might as well just give you everything maxed out, up-front, to begin with (as being able to change them on-the-fly would be tantamount to precisely that).
Also, you seem to be saying two things at the same time: that you want respecs to be free, or pay for it anyway, but in a different form. As for the former, I maintain they can't be free. "Introducing skill loadout slots for zen" is something I could get wholeheartedly behind, though! (Although that would really just be like a respec token, except 'enhanced', and turned into a loadout, but which you still gotta pay for).
You've pretty much misunderstood everything I've said. For starters how would skill loadouts amount to "maxed out skills" as you can only run one loadout at a time.
Very simple, as you'd effectively no longer have to chose how you wish to spec. When respecs would be free, there'd no longer the question "Shall go Tact heavy? Or more partgen/sci?" You will have both at your immediate disposal, thus, de facto, have maxed out skills on everything.
Also no one is asking for everything to be free, that would be daft. But I have offered a suggestion on how cryptic can still make money (probably more), and make the game more user friendly and new player friendly at the same time.
And I offered the suggestion that 'paid for skill loadouts' is something I'd get behind. But that that's basically just the same as a respect token, but enhanced to included a loadout.
Loadouts do not amount to everything being maxed all the time because you have to choose between them. The same as ship loadouts don't amount to you running all your builds at the same time. You have to choose, and it takes time to change from one to the other. Also, no, a respec token would not be the same as a loadout slot, because you would still need to respec (which would be free) before you could save it as a loadout (paid for). Effectively pushing the cost further down the line. Remember this thread is about the proposed system and how it sucks. Hence the possible alternative suggested, originally by another poster (highlandrise85) which I agree with.
I read the first sentence of "Mr Wall of Text" and dont bother reading the rest, since its the same "NO NO NO NO NO!" so i dont really care anymore. Everyone who likes the Idea (and as far as i can see there are many more YAY sayers than NAY sayers) can show his Support so Cryptic can see that its something we want, for the People who dont want it, just DONT FRIGGIN USE IT THAN, no one would force you, but DONT RUIN THE OTHERS DAY! or like someone else said:
I never understood the need to TRIBBLE, whine and argue against something that does not affect them in the slightest.
If you don't feel you need to be able to respec more freely then good for you, but don't be a jerk and try to ruin things for the rest of us.
Except that what I'm saying (and you aren't able to answer effectively at all) is that you shouldn't get what you want, because it's bad for EVERYONE. It's bad for you because it enables your false sense of security in the quality of your builds and overall game play ability, and that's bad for everyone else because it makes it harder to design engaging content that we can play together. In order to demonstrate that you should get what you want, you either have to demonstrate why it's better for Cryptic to bow to the will of the uninformed masses regardless of the implications for the health of the game, or you have to demonstrate why I'm wrong about the likely way players would end up interacting with the system in the real world.
Incidentally, I'm basing my argument on how the psychology of poor players works largely on the work of Dunning and Kruger, which is pretty well explained here:
You can certainly argue with my application of the science if you want, but the underlying idea of how people approach and understand their own ignorance is pretty solid.
Oh, and some of you will likely jump immediately to "Isn't it just as likely that YOU are the one who is ignorant and misunderstanding everything, mrtshead?". I actually acknowledged that possibility WAY back in the post that everyone is still misreading as "I'm right because I'm smarter than you", when what I actually did (or attempted to do) was to make clear my process of critical analysis, and argue that my comparative questioning of the evidence on both sides was more likely to give true answers than the alternative, no matter how many people might disagree on an emotional level. That hardly makes me cold-hearted, I would say - instead, it makes me a passionate (zealous, really) defender of the value of critical thinking.
Not Quoting you, reading your first Sentence and ignoring the rest of your Wall. You say its bad, i say Nonsense, like all the other Walls you throw in here so far.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event and mission rewards!!
Gotta love the creative BS some people come up with to justify putting other people down.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
Gotta love the creative BS some people come up with to justify putting other people down.
well at least for that we have to give him credit, he does not lack creativity, its all BS but its creative BS, never than the less, i dont have enough Painkillers here to read through that TRIBBLE evey time, and other than that, it would kill a few thousand of my Brain Cells every time trying to do so, and that is definately not worth it. (still need some Brain Cells to play STO )Let the Forum Trolls Troll around, not taking that seriously anymore.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event and mission rewards!!
Reading through this thread honestly makes me anticipate the new skill system even more. As I've surmised from poking around a bit on Tribble, the skill revamp will require all players to step up and be creative with strategy, as it pertains to character design. I think this is a good thing. In the time that I've been playing STO I've noticed players become very focused on optimizing DPS and sharing stats along those lines. This suggests a large player base making each of their characters and ships more similar, instead of just doing either whatever pleases them or brings out particular strengths in the character they have created.
What is the point of specializing in a career if the game rewards generalizing? Personally, I would rather see a performance drop if a character is built to generalize. Much as in life, when your training is a mile wide and an inch deep, you cannot expect success or results to be proud of. Invest deeply in a particular field and you will end up writing your own ticket.
The click a box then have to click a pop-up box is just needlessly irritating and not user friendly. On a couple of toons, a bit grating to say the least. On a large number of toons, yeah it's just not good at all. A system like we currently have that requires a commit button would make this easier.
I'd just like to point out that what might be good for one person won't be good for all (under the new system). As we all know, the current system has various "filler" skills such as sensors, subspace decompiler, inertial dampeners, hull plating, armour reinforcements, EPS, weapons training, attack patterns, and stealth; most of which have little to no utility outside of extremely specialized builds i.e. vapers, CC, and exotic/torp damage builds.
Under the new system, those filler skills have either been merged into broader categories (i.e. Drain/Control Expertise [flow caps and power insulators/GraviGens, subspace decompiler, and inertial dampeners]) or presented as unlock paths (i.e. Threat Control/Stealth and DRR/Increased Hull Capacity). As a result, you've got more space (no pun intended) for new skills that you won't have access to under the old/current system; the unlock paths also provide the ability to create training manuals that you aren't able to do so presently (specifically TS/CSV/CRF3, TB/TBR3 and AtD/AtB3 just to name a few).
Granted, there's still the concern that one may need to respec x amount of times because of how many types of ship one might have (and that not every ship is capable of fulfilling the role of another). This concern would be eased by permanently reducing the cost of a respec, as some others have said, to 40-50% of the current cost (or by making bundles of respec token available).
It's better for you if you pick one type of ship (cruiser, escort, science vessel) than own multiple ships with varying stat and equipment loadouts: that way, you can be sure that one Generalist DPS/Tanking/Space Magic build will work across your entire "garage" so to speak..although I can't say much due to my main having the Pathfinder, Jupiter, and Elachi escort, among others, in my active ships.
I'd encourage you to test out the revamp on Tribble before it goes live, that way you can optimise your builds to what works best for YOU, and not copy-paste somebody else's tree - I've done that, and I've noticed an increase in performance..although another person might not.
Comments
Corection: I said I'd support the idea of Skill Loadouts for Zen. Not free skill loadouts.
As long as you still have to pay for the initial Skill Loadout tokens to begin with, all would be good.
In many, many ways an extra loadout is better than an extra character slot... and would have to priced higher accordingly.
look, whenever they added something new, they gave us a "few" for free, like for example drydocks, both Silver and Gold/LTS players got some (5 / 10) so it is just logical that the same would apply to a Skill Loadout System, you give Silver Player 1 additional, and Gold/LTS 2 additional Skill Loadouts for free, and if they want more, they can buy more from the C-Store, i dont see a Issue here.
Here i also dont see any Issues, i have 42 Characters myself, would i have less if we allready had Skill Loadouts? i dont think so, i just like to have Chars of nearly all Species, Carrers and so on and iam sure iam not the only one here.
Another Skill Loadout does not turn your Char into a Second Character.
Other than that, Pricing should be the smallest Issue, that can be thought about when they finaly decide to Implement the Skill Loadouts and the removal of the Respec Tokens, and iam sure most people are willing to pay slightly more for a Skill Loadout than they would have to pay for a Respec Token, cause you buy it ONCE and you keep it FOREVER. I woulndt have a problem paying 50% or if it has to be even twice the amount of a Respec Token for a Skill Loadout, definately worth it.
Loadouts do not amount to everything being maxed all the time because you have to choose between them. The same as ship loadouts don't amount to you running all your builds at the same time. You have to choose, and it takes time to change from one to the other. Also, no, a respec token would not be the same as a loadout slot, because you would still need to respec (which would be free) before you could save it as a loadout (paid for). Effectively pushing the cost further down the line. Remember this thread is about the proposed system and how it sucks. Hence the possible alternative suggested, originally by another poster (highlandrise85) which I agree with.
Except that what I'm saying (and you aren't able to answer effectively at all) is that you shouldn't get what you want, because it's bad for EVERYONE. It's bad for you because it enables your false sense of security in the quality of your builds and overall game play ability, and that's bad for everyone else because it makes it harder to design engaging content that we can play together. In order to demonstrate that you should get what you want, you either have to demonstrate why it's better for Cryptic to bow to the will of the uninformed masses regardless of the implications for the health of the game, or you have to demonstrate why I'm wrong about the likely way players would end up interacting with the system in the real world.
Incidentally, I'm basing my argument on how the psychology of poor players works largely on the work of Dunning and Kruger, which is pretty well explained here:
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/lessons-from-dunning-kruger/
You can certainly argue with my application of the science if you want, but the underlying idea of how people approach and understand their own ignorance is pretty solid.
Oh, and some of you will likely jump immediately to "Isn't it just as likely that YOU are the one who is ignorant and misunderstanding everything, mrtshead?". I actually acknowledged that possibility WAY back in the post that everyone is still misreading as "I'm right because I'm smarter than you", when what I actually did (or attempted to do) was to make clear my process of critical analysis, and argue that my comparative questioning of the evidence on both sides was more likely to give true answers than the alternative, no matter how many people might disagree on an emotional level. That hardly makes me cold-hearted, I would say - instead, it makes me a passionate (zealous, really) defender of the value of critical thinking.
well at least for that we have to give him credit, he does not lack creativity, its all BS but its creative BS, never than the less, i dont have enough Painkillers here to read through that TRIBBLE evey time, and other than that, it would kill a few thousand of my Brain Cells every time trying to do so, and that is definately not worth it. (still need some Brain Cells to play STO
What is the point of specializing in a career if the game rewards generalizing? Personally, I would rather see a performance drop if a character is built to generalize. Much as in life, when your training is a mile wide and an inch deep, you cannot expect success or results to be proud of. Invest deeply in a particular field and you will end up writing your own ticket.
Under the new system, those filler skills have either been merged into broader categories (i.e. Drain/Control Expertise [flow caps and power insulators/GraviGens, subspace decompiler, and inertial dampeners]) or presented as unlock paths (i.e. Threat Control/Stealth and DRR/Increased Hull Capacity). As a result, you've got more space (no pun intended) for new skills that you won't have access to under the old/current system; the unlock paths also provide the ability to create training manuals that you aren't able to do so presently (specifically TS/CSV/CRF3, TB/TBR3 and AtD/AtB3 just to name a few).
Granted, there's still the concern that one may need to respec x amount of times because of how many types of ship one might have (and that not every ship is capable of fulfilling the role of another). This concern would be eased by permanently reducing the cost of a respec, as some others have said, to 40-50% of the current cost (or by making bundles of respec token available).
It's better for you if you pick one type of ship (cruiser, escort, science vessel) than own multiple ships with varying stat and equipment loadouts: that way, you can be sure that one Generalist DPS/Tanking/Space Magic build will work across your entire "garage" so to speak..although I can't say much due to my main having the Pathfinder, Jupiter, and Elachi escort, among others, in my active ships.
I'd encourage you to test out the revamp on Tribble before it goes live, that way you can optimise your builds to what works best for YOU, and not copy-paste somebody else's tree - I've done that, and I've noticed an increase in performance..although another person might not.