test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Why is the T6 Defiant so weak?
torvinecho25
Member Posts: 49 Arc User
I know a lot of people are trying to defend the T6 Defiant and its statistics/capabilities, but seriously...its weak. It has nothing to offer against the Mercury (/Ajax/Icarus) or the Phantom.
The Defiant has marginally more hull against the Mercury, and a nearly identical console layout. The Mercury, however, has +3 base turn, a more specialized bridge office slot (Mercury has Comm-Pilot and Lieutenant-Pilot hybrid slots; Defiant has only Lieu-Comm-Pilot), Pilot ship maneuvers, and the ever-coveted 5/2 weapons layout. Neither ships console is fantastic, but the Mercurys offers a passive boost to projectile damage, which the Defiants does not.
The only real edge I see on the Defiant is that it has a marginally more useful trait compared to the Mercury...the only use for the Defiant would be to buy it, level it, and then slot its trait on the more formidable Mercury.
Likewise, the Phantom also significantly overpowers the Defiant. Once again, the Defiant slips away with more hull then the Phantom. The Phantom, however, has a stronger BoFF layout (with Intel seats, which I would argue are more useful then Pilot seating), an (arguably) more useful console,a built in cloaking device, Intel energy signature masking, Intel probe powers, and an obviously better trait (Reciprocity). Both ships have identical turn rates and console layouts (at fleet level).
Can someone give me a legitimate reason as to why the T6 Defiant would be worth the $30 investment, aside from nostalgia/cool factor? I see it as a complete waste of money for anyone who owns the Pilot escort(s) or the Phantom.
Should have been designed to compete with the KDF Mat'Ha Raptor. 5/2 weapons, Intel (not Pilot) seating...
The Defiant has marginally more hull against the Mercury, and a nearly identical console layout. The Mercury, however, has +3 base turn, a more specialized bridge office slot (Mercury has Comm-Pilot and Lieutenant-Pilot hybrid slots; Defiant has only Lieu-Comm-Pilot), Pilot ship maneuvers, and the ever-coveted 5/2 weapons layout. Neither ships console is fantastic, but the Mercurys offers a passive boost to projectile damage, which the Defiants does not.
The only real edge I see on the Defiant is that it has a marginally more useful trait compared to the Mercury...the only use for the Defiant would be to buy it, level it, and then slot its trait on the more formidable Mercury.
Likewise, the Phantom also significantly overpowers the Defiant. Once again, the Defiant slips away with more hull then the Phantom. The Phantom, however, has a stronger BoFF layout (with Intel seats, which I would argue are more useful then Pilot seating), an (arguably) more useful console,a built in cloaking device, Intel energy signature masking, Intel probe powers, and an obviously better trait (Reciprocity). Both ships have identical turn rates and console layouts (at fleet level).
Can someone give me a legitimate reason as to why the T6 Defiant would be worth the $30 investment, aside from nostalgia/cool factor? I see it as a complete waste of money for anyone who owns the Pilot escort(s) or the Phantom.
Should have been designed to compete with the KDF Mat'Ha Raptor. 5/2 weapons, Intel (not Pilot) seating...
0
Comments
For Pete's sake stop comparing the seating, the Valiant is not a Pilot specialist escort there is no reason for it to have equal Pilot seating to that of a Specialist. Or would you rather the Pilot escorts lose any significance?
I'd also like to point out that the Pilot Specialist escorts have stats to take into account the lack of Fleet versions (see the console count of 11) so comparisons are automatically skewed.
Overall the Valiant is a nicely balanced general purpose attack ship. It is not supposed to be some all singing all dancing power-creep monster of doom.
Here's one to get the fires burning...
Maybe the Pilot escorts need to be nerfed a bit to bring them back into order?
Grabs popcorn and sits back to enjoy all the nonsense below.
Actually the Defiant console does give a passive +10% torpedo damage passive.
Simply put if you want stat by stat superiority the defiant isn't worth the cost vs pilot or phantom escorts.
which is exactly why I didn't pay for the defiant, I paied for the Kor, which while only a marginal upgrade over the T5F-U B'rel is still an upgrade and has no other T6 BoP to compete against and the T6 T'varo, which is just about the best torpedo bomber in the game now.
If I'm paying for those two its only logical to grab the pack and get the defiant as a freebie instead. Even if I never use it for anything other than an admiralty card, its still a freebie.
And the Phantom minus all the tinsel performs almost identically. I'd even argue that the Valiant is less durable due to lacking Lt. Com stations. Mind, an ensign universal is not terrible by any means. It's basically there to slot a boff space trait into. Sacrificing a Lt. Com station for an upgraded Ensign seat is terrible.
People didn't argue that the Hestia and Alita were underpowered. Aside from the Hestia's tactical ensign, they were well received. The ships had an identity, a niche for them to fill. For one, unlike the Pilot Escorts and the Phantom, they were raw standardized Escorts. Less complicated and more straight forward. Even so, they had their perks that cemented them as being different in a significant way.
The Hestia has a Lt. Com Science and Engineering Seat. This affords it flexibility and durability to compensate for it's notably reduced mobility.
The Alita has a hangar. That may not seem like much, but it's a unique feature that gives the ship some flavor.
And the Valiant, you are right that it is a very standardized Escort, but aside from being slightly faster than the other two, it has nothing going for it. It's not more durable. It doesn't hit harder. It has no special features whatsoever. Pilot abilities are...not especially amazing. Not like Intel are at any rate.
You might say the Valiant is a very vanilla escort, but compared to other Iconic ship updates, it's lacking. And when you begin making comparisons to the Phantom and the Pilot Escorts, it notably loses everything that it might call it's own.
There were 3 things that they could have done to make the Valiant unique in some way.
1.) A 5/2 lay out. This would have made it more front-loaded than the Phantom, while possessing more innate durability than the Pilot Escorts.
2.) An integrated cloaking device. A less complicated variant of the Phantom that's a bit sturdier for those opening moments.
3.) A torpedo launcher baked into the hull ala the Patrol Escort's tail gun or the Gal-X's lance. Basically the console turned into an unofficial forward mounted weapon slot. Not as powerful as an actual weapon slot, but a nifty bonus that gives the ship a little something special.
Honestly, if the Phantom and the Pilot Escorts, but mostly the Phantom didn't exist, the Valiant would be an alright bog standard Escort, but it's really got nothing going for it. Even if you ignored the Tinsel, ignored the Commander/Hybrid seats, the Phantom and Pilot Escorts are straight up better at doing whatever the Valiant does.
How many old-school ships are competitive for their class: scimi, vesta, tvaro if torping and.....?
While Piloting/Intel/Command stations are good, you could easily live without them. Some of their abilities are more gimmicky than actually helpful.
The extra hull is almost pointless seeing as how a T5-U ship also gets that bonus. And regardless of that, the extra hull doesn't even matter because with how NPCs "scale" to lvl 60 players, they hit so hard the extra hull doesn't make any difference! These hull buffs need to be MUCH higher to make any difference!
As for the traits, well if I have to go out of my way to buy a ship JUST for a trait, that's pretty sad I think.
My point is: Just cause you slap these things on to these ships doesn't justify calling them "T6". Why not give them better shield modifiers than T5 ships? Why not give them even more bonus power levels? WHY DO I HAVE TO BUY THE FLEET VERSION OF A T6 ESCORT JUST TO GET THE FRAKEN 5TH TACTICAL CONSOLE!? That should be STANDARD on T6 Escorts, not something I gotta pay extra for!
I think you'll find this is quite deliberate on Cryptics part. They said from the start that T6 would not be heads and above better than T5 like T4-to-T5 is. T6 allows a minor upgrade, desirable traits (sometimes) and more options with the specialty seating. Its debatable if thats worth an extra 500 zen over T5 prices, but then the upgrade token is 750 so adding all but the trait and specialist seating to a T5 is still more expensive, specially when you need the fleet level of said T5 to match the number of consoles.
So far only the specialty ship forerunners stand out as solidly better than T5 ships. (and the Galaxy because of its boff layout change)
How so?
What did the Galaxy get? A Lt.Tactical upgraded to a Lt.Cmdr Tactical. The Valiant gets its 3rd Tactical BO, a Tactical Ensign, upgraded to a Lt. Universal. A dead weight slot is suddenly useful and flexible!
The Galaxy got a Command Lt.Cmdr, and the Valiant got a Pilot Lt.Cmdr. It got less hull and shields than the Command vessels.
It got no command ship abilities, no hangar bay, no integrated cloak, battle cloak, stealth, dual cannons, nothing.
The Pathfinder? It's Hybrid slot is not even a Lt.Cmdr.
For the record the set bonus doesn't really do much for the Kor either, cooldown still takes longer than any romulan captain and the decloak ambush only lasts long enough for 2 volleys maximum, unlike Remans who can get it to last for up to 21 seconds.
The Andromeda is tankier than any of the Command Battlecruisers and has access to all of the Cruiser Commands. And a Lt. Com Tac is massive for a Cruiser to have. It grants TS3 or BFaW3. Big power spikes.
Comparatively, Pilot doesn't bring much at all. Hold Together might be pretty nice as a survival skill, but you lose something in the exchange. You give up a Lt. Com Tac skill in exchange for it. And a Lt. station is pretty crummy when you've got two of them already. You obviously aren't going to add more tac skills, which leaves you with...what? Two Lt. Sci or Eng slots are still pretty limited.
There is no legitimate non nostalgia reason to get the Valiant. People will try to say that the valiant is the natural progression of the defiant line. Trying to make it seem ok for the valiant to be mediocre to bad because previous defiants have been mediocre to bad is a bad argument. But unfortunately, they aren´t wrong insaying that generally the T6 versions have all been underwhelming unless the base ship had something going for it already. The Valiant was destined to always suck because the Defiant has always sucked, as all three iconics have.
Unless someone just can´t help themselves I tell them to let the Valaint go by and hope Cryptic puts more effort into their next showing.
The question the op asks is interesting because its not about unmet expectations, but rather why is a Valaint worth it when there´re better options available?
Because to *some* people, flying their hero ship is worth more than that extra bit of OP-ness. For them, they'd rather fly the somewhat inferior Defiant than the pilot ships. Those people are the ones that have been clamoring for a T6 Defiant, because they felt that the T5u version wasn't good enough, but weren't happy with the newer ships.
The fact that the pilot ships (and others) are better than the Defiant doesn't make their decision wrong or stupid.
--Red Annorax
It is a definitive improvement in flexibility and power compared to the various Tier 4 and Tier 5 Defiant variants.
If you like playing around with visual ship customziation, the Tier 6 and Tier 6 Fleet option add additional options with new parts and access to all the new Materials (Material 7 and Upgrade for regular Tier 6, and Fleet and Fleet 2 for Tier 6 Fleet).
Way to not answer the question.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
If it involves the cloaking console in any way, it's a dud.
I'm surprised it doesn't utilize the Quads.
I'm buying the 3-pk, but the defiant is the one I don't care for. Only 2 of my 12 toons can use fed ships.
If I wanted to buy my Favorite Escort I'd be grabbing the t6 Hestia, but cannot justify that owning the Ajax and Icarus. I barely use fed Escorts anyways these days.
Well maybe the Valiant wasn't designed to surpass the Pilot Escorts? Maybe it was designed for the fans of the Defiant?
Maybe the Defiant is decades old? Maybe it's not meant to surpass brand new technology? God forbid a little logic survives in STO...then again there are people expecting a T6 TOS Connie...
Yeah I'm a bit disappointed it didn't use the Quads and linked a bonus to cloak...a console which already is linked to a set bonus on another ship, not to mention the copy and paste share with the BoP...which is only half effective since it's hardly possible to uncloak and get out of combat fast enough to utilize the cooldown reduction.
Could have all been avoided if they allowed the Phantom to use the Defiant skin.
Here´s a newsflash for you. Those of us complaining? We ARE fans of the Defiant. Why else would be want to give Cryptic MORE money to get something on par with ships we already have? What bothers us is that we´re being asked to pay a premium for an inferior or mediocre ship ONLY because its holding our favorite skin hostage.
Speaking of powercreep. That was an argument the playerbase lost to Cryptic YEARS ago. Powercreep is a thing in STO, more or less it happens in jumps known as "tiers". T4, T4+1, T5, Fleet T5, T5-U, T6, Fleet T6, etc. Generally speaking each tier will have all our favorite ships so you can buy them over and over, with the bonus of getting new skins so you can get to mix and match more. People complain about powercreep because its a way to push to buy more ships. Its the equivalent of a hard sale subscription in STO and while people complain we´re all too happy to throw money at the screen when our favorite ships get an upgrade. This time, the bar is set such that the usual progression just leaves the current tier defiant lacking far too much.
You also speak of the defiant being weak because they´re old? The Valiant is suppossed to be a brand new ship, it just happens to share design layouts and is based on the Defiant class. But lets completely shatter that shall we? In every tier, the Excelsior is better than the Galaxy, and the base Excelsior is way older than the base Galaxy, isn´t it?
Personally I vote to give them a better shield modifier.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
I'll second that.
Except the T6 Exploration Cruiser is better than the T6 Advanced Heavy Cruiser in about everything except turn rate...so wrong right there.
Their Boff layout is identical pretty much but the EC has a Uni Ens...the EC is slower to turn but has a higher hull strength...so no...the AHC isn't superior.
No where did I say power creep wasn't a thing...I said it's people like you who make power creep popular...your favorite ship isn't the most powerful ship out there...it isn't as powerful as another ship so you complain. Sometimes it makes me angry but with people like you it's a damned if they do damned if they don't situation.
Tell me...why does the Defiant need to be better than the Pilot Escorts? Give me a reason why? Because it's your favorite ship doesn't work...
I like and own the Pathfinder...does that mean I expect it to be more powerful than the Scryer? No...
Least you got a Lt Cmdr Specialization...Pathfinder wasn't so lucky.
Listen to yourself! If you're ok accepting a cashgrab that gives you back something inferior without even seeing what's wrong then I don't know what to tell you.