Let me say this: I think we can all agree that the Pilot Ships regardless of faction, are the best or among the best Escorts you can possibly get in this game, correct?
With that in mind, I ask this:
If anyone out there, regardless of faction, is flying an Escort or anything remotely close to one, why aren't they all flying Pilot Ships, provided they have the resources to get it?
Let me say this: I think we can all agree that the Pilot Ships regardless of faction, are the best or among the best Escorts you can possibly get in this game, correct?
With that in mind, I ask this:
If anyone out there, regardless of faction, is flying an Escort or anything remotely close to one, why aren't they all flying Pilot Ships, provided they have the resources to get it?
Because its more important to like the ship you fly and have fun with it than it is to have an OP lolbuild which destroys everything in sight.
What use is function without fun?
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Let me say this: I think we can all agree that the Pilot Ships regardless of faction, are the best or among the best Escorts you can possibly get in this game, correct?
With that in mind, I ask this:
If anyone out there, regardless of faction, is flying an Escort or anything remotely close to one, why aren't they all flying Pilot Ships, provided they have the resources to get it?
Because Pilot ships don't have everything. They don't have 2 Lt. Com slots, and they don't have a hangar. Having extra buttons to press can be a bit of a turn off to people (I don't like having more buttons). Some people would prefer raw stats over bells and whistles, and while the Pilot Escorts have plenty of firepower, they aren't built especially tough.
That said, anything the Pilot Escorts aren't suited to, the Hestia, Alita, and Phantom are. There's no place for the Valiant in that line up.
Let me say this: I think we can all agree that the Pilot Ships regardless of faction, are the best or among the best Escorts you can possibly get in this game, correct?
With that in mind, I ask this:
If anyone out there, regardless of faction, is flying an Escort or anything remotely close to one, why aren't they all flying Pilot Ships, provided they have the resources to get it?
Because Pilot ships don't have everything. They don't have 2 Lt. Com slots, and they don't have a hangar.
And does that make them actually weak or not the best Escorts in the game?
I think not.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I like and own the Pathfinder...does that mean I expect it to be more powerful than the Scryer? No...
Least you got a Lt Cmdr Specialization...Pathfinder wasn't so lucky.
Listen to yourself! If you're ok accepting a cashgrab that gives you back something inferior without even seeing what's wrong then I don't know what to tell you.
I bought it for what it was, a T6 version of a ship I like...it's not my fault you were kidding yourself into thinking that these T6 ships are much more than a fan service.
If you don't like that then don't buy it or convert for it...plain and simple...you're silly if you think these ships are for more than the people who want a T6 version of their old favorites.
If you need so much creep just to fly a ship then it isn't the ship that is weak...it's the pilot that is weak.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
All the upper tier ships we are flying are modern and fitted with current 2409 technology, so let's stop to be so anal about the shape of ships, because that's all they are.
And the discussion has completely left the OP behind here. He wasn't asking for the most powerful whatever, he was asking about comparing the capabilities of different ships and if all those different ships have their own "uniqueness". He seems to feel the T6 Defiant has not.
I would like to offer some insight into the ships he is comparing, but I'm not big on escorts myself and don't own any of those mentioned.
All the upper tier ships we are flying are modern and fitted with current 2409 technology, so let's stop to be so anal about the shape of ships, because that's all they are.
And the discussion has completely left the OP behind here. He wasn't asking for the most powerful whatever, he was asking about comparing the capabilities of different ships and if all those different ships have their own "uniqueness". He seems to feel the T6 Defiant has not.
I would like to offer some insight into the ships he is comparing, but I'm not big on escorts myself and don't own any of those mentioned.
It is what it is...it's a fan service and if the OP doesn't like it then he doesn't have to buy it...plain and simple.
Not everyone care about if ship A is more powerful than ship B...
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
All the upper tier ships we are flying are modern and fitted with current 2409 technology, so let's stop to be so anal about the shape of ships, because that's all they are.
And the discussion has completely left the OP behind here. He wasn't asking for the most powerful whatever, he was asking about comparing the capabilities of different ships and if all those different ships have their own "uniqueness". He seems to feel the T6 Defiant has not.
I would like to offer some insight into the ships he is comparing, but I'm not big on escorts myself and don't own any of those mentioned.
It is what it is...it's a fan service and if the OP doesn't like it then he doesn't have to buy it...plain and simple.
Not everyone care about if ship A is more powerful than ship B...
Well, the Op doesn't. Like I wrote in my post, it's not about more powerful but about equal appeal.
All the upper tier ships we are flying are modern and fitted with current 2409 technology, so let's stop to be so anal about the shape of ships, because that's all they are.
And the discussion has completely left the OP behind here. He wasn't asking for the most powerful whatever, he was asking about comparing the capabilities of different ships and if all those different ships have their own "uniqueness". He seems to feel the T6 Defiant has not.
I would like to offer some insight into the ships he is comparing, but I'm not big on escorts myself and don't own any of those mentioned.
It is what it is...it's a fan service and if the OP doesn't like it then he doesn't have to buy it...plain and simple.
Not everyone care about if ship A is more powerful than ship B...
Well, the Op doesn't. Like I wrote in my post, it's not about more powerful but about equal appeal.
Every ship can't be equal...
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
All the upper tier ships we are flying are modern and fitted with current 2409 technology, so let's stop to be so anal about the shape of ships, because that's all they are.
And the discussion has completely left the OP behind here. He wasn't asking for the most powerful whatever, he was asking about comparing the capabilities of different ships and if all those different ships have their own "uniqueness". He seems to feel the T6 Defiant has not.
I would like to offer some insight into the ships he is comparing, but I'm not big on escorts myself and don't own any of those mentioned.
It is what it is...it's a fan service and if the OP doesn't like it then he doesn't have to buy it...plain and simple.
Not everyone care about if ship A is more powerful than ship B...
Well, the Op doesn't. Like I wrote in my post, it's not about more powerful but about equal appeal.
Every ship can't be equal...
And no one said equal, I said equal appeal, like in different options. If one ship is just flat out worse in everything than a comparable vessel (you know, ship class, tier, price etc.). Now I'm not saying that is the case here, but that is what the OP wanted to discuss before everything got derailed.
All the upper tier ships we are flying are modern and fitted with current 2409 technology, so let's stop to be so anal about the shape of ships, because that's all they are.
And the discussion has completely left the OP behind here. He wasn't asking for the most powerful whatever, he was asking about comparing the capabilities of different ships and if all those different ships have their own "uniqueness". He seems to feel the T6 Defiant has not.
I would like to offer some insight into the ships he is comparing, but I'm not big on escorts myself and don't own any of those mentioned.
It is what it is...it's a fan service and if the OP doesn't like it then he doesn't have to buy it...plain and simple.
Not everyone care about if ship A is more powerful than ship B...
Well, the Op doesn't. Like I wrote in my post, it's not about more powerful but about equal appeal.
Every ship can't be equal...
And no one said equal, I said equal appeal, like in different options. If one ship is just flat out worse in everything than a comparable vessel (you know, ship class, tier, price etc.). Now I'm not saying that is the case here, but that is what the OP wanted to discuss before everything got derailed.
The T6 Dread is flat out superior to the Exploration Cruiser...the Annorax is superior in almost every way to other Science ships...it happens in the game all the time...buy it or not...but don't pretend like it never happened in the game ever before because it's your favorite ship (OP).
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
I like and own the Pathfinder...does that mean I expect it to be more powerful than the Scryer? No...
Least you got a Lt Cmdr Specialization...Pathfinder wasn't so lucky.
Listen to yourself! If you're ok accepting a cashgrab that gives you back something inferior without even seeing what's wrong then I don't know what to tell you.
Listen to YOURSELF. If you think that every ship that is released has to be more OPed then the most OPed ship already out, what you will have is a game with a level of power creep that is ridiculous. Hell it's already pretty bad as it is. And it's not like you NEED even more OPed stuff to do the content anyways. Hell, technically you can do the content in a T3 ship if you don't completely suck at this game. You know what, I'd be happy if every single release of any T6 ship from here on out disappoints people like you. That means cryptic is actually trying to keep power creep to a managable level.
We're at a new level of power for escorts. Its already happenned. It wasn't done by the players it was done by Cryptic. Releasing weak ships will not take us back to before we jumped to a new power level. No one is asking for a new power level, just for the Valiant to be as powerful as the current escorts. You know what? I HOPE your wish comes true and all ships from here on out are weaker than pre existing ships. I´d love to see Cryptic start monetizing the game in ways other than endless ships, because nothing but weaker ships is not going to cut it for supporting the game.
Let me say this: I think we can all agree that the Pilot Ships regardless of faction, are the best or among the best Escorts you can possibly get in this game, correct?
With that in mind, I ask this:
If anyone out there, regardless of faction, is flying an Escort or anything remotely close to one, why aren't they all flying Pilot Ships, provided they have the resources to get it?
Because its more important to like the ship you fly and have fun with it than it is to have an OP lolbuild which destroys everything in sight.
Let me say this: I think we can all agree that the Pilot Ships regardless of faction, are the best or among the best Escorts you can possibly get in this game, correct?
With that in mind, I ask this:
If anyone out there, regardless of faction, is flying an Escort or anything remotely close to one, why aren't they all flying Pilot Ships, provided they have the resources to get it?
Because Pilot ships don't have everything. They don't have 2 Lt. Com slots, and they don't have a hangar. Having extra buttons to press can be a bit of a turn off to people (I don't like having more buttons). Some people would prefer raw stats over bells and whistles, and while the Pilot Escorts have plenty of firepower, they aren't built especially tough.
That said, anything the Pilot Escorts aren't suited to, the Hestia, Alita, and Phantom are. There's no place for the Valiant in that line up.
Point on the lack of dual LtCmdr stations. But there is a caveat to the Dual LtCmdr. You'll have a stronger station with the 2nd LtCmdr but it takes away from another station and leaves it with an Ens one only. There's give and take to having 1 LtCmdr or 2 in the BOFF layout.
- The benefits of single hangar bays are meaningless in the game. For me, the lack of a hangar is not a sore point about the Pilot Ships. If you're going to go Carrier, you go all the way with 2 hangars. If not, let's not pretend 1 hangar of fragile fighters that depend on the mass numbers capable of 2 hangar carriers, or shuttles that come in very few numbers on 1 hangar ships are decent.
- Buttons to press? You talking the Consoles on the Pilot Ships? GET RID OF THEM. Seriously, they don't bring that much. They're gimmick consoles. Get rid of them and all the sudden, 3 console slots are free to use! Less clutter on the Power Trays! Pilot Maneuvers? They're the game's GET OUT OF JAIL Cards. There are no extra buttons to press other than what you're already using to fly the ship already. You do NOT have to use the Pilot Maneuvers Panel. It can be configured to use your current flight keys. So the issue of a cluttered UI is not there with the Pilot Ships.
- I will say this: While the Pilot Ships have weaker hull, they don't need it. They travel faster than ANY Escort that isn't the Risian Corvette. They have turn rates on par with the Corvette, Bugships, KDF Birds of Prey. They inherently get more Bonus Defense than even other Escorts that can get good Bonus Defense. Bonus Defense / Speed Tanking is a very old school mechanic Cryptic introduced a year after STO released. Escorts are the best in the game on bonus defense and Pilot Ships are above what other Escorts can do. There was a thread a player asked regarding how survivable the Pilot Ships really were when they were released. He was concerned about the lower hull. There's enough responses, some including from myself to point out that survivability in a Pilot Ship is a non-issue and is actually EASIER than other Escorts despite the lighter hull. The best form of survivability is NOT getting hit.
The Pilot Ships are fast, maneuverable, easy to survive, have special *worthwhile* gimmicks, and all possess 5 fwd weapons, 5 TAC Consoles. They overshadow what everything else can do for their respective factions.
You want a TAC heavy Escort? There's a Pilot Ship for that.
You want a "Destroyer" styled Escort with a LtCmdr ENG station? There's a Pilot Ship for that.
You want a SCI-Scort? There's a Pilot Ship for that.
And all variants share the same speed, maneuverability, outstanding firepower, elusiveness, regardless of variant you choose. Their gimmick with Pilot Maneuvers sets them apart. The only thing they don't do is Dual LtCmdr but that has its own flaws as pointed out earlier. With all the things they can do they are clearly superior Escorts. Ever since the Pilot Ships came out earlier in the year, every single new Escort that comes along is compared to them. They are the Gold Standard. Think back on every thread that arose when a new Escort was coming out or when someone is fielding opinions on what Escort he/she should consider next. And you will find that everything else comes up wanting when compared to the Pilot Ships. You will find that the Pilot Ships are repeatedly recommended.
So again... The Pilot Ships are clear cut superior Escorts. Yet they are not the only Escorts flying in this game, or vast swathes of the Escort playerbase are not flying them.
This is one area where @warmaker001b and I are in complete, 100% agreement. Every word of that post is spot on!
I'll say one more thing for the 'survivability' of Pilot Ships.. don't even worry about the hull rating, you won't need it. Pilot sips are the most survivable ships in the game outside of the heftiest cruiser you can buy. Why? Pilot Maneuvers..
Pilot Maneuvers are on an 8 second cool down. Executing a Pilot Maneuver gives you 3-4 seconds of total invulnerability to any damage. So every 8 seconds, you can get 3-4 seconds of total immunity to all incoming damage. Now sure, it's not 100%, enemies can disable your pilot maneuvers with Tractor Beams and other movement impairing devices, but that's when you use your regular heals like you would any other ship.
I'll put it this way.. I suck with Escorts. I just do.. I'm a pretty solid Cruiser Captain, but putting me in an escort usually means I'm going to under perform. I generally find the style difficult to play and when things are moving so fast, and timing becomes so much more crucial, I find it easy to make what I call 'panic mistakes.' Where you spaz out and just do something stupid.
That being the case, even I don't die in my Icarus. In fact, I have survived some content that might even have taken down my Presidio, and I NEVER die in my Presidio. When things are getting hectic, I just use my heals to keep me going and spam my barrel rolls until I can get healed up. It's saved me more times then I can count.
Pilot Escorts have completely re-defined the Escort Class. Simply put, everything else is second rate by comparison.
If I'm not mistaken, you can't shoot while using pilot maneuvers. That's the trade off.
And even if a hangar is of dubious worth, it adds flavor to a ship at no cost. The Alita doesn't have to equip a console to use it's hangar. It doesn't lose any weapon slots. It's just there for people to enjoy. It's a bonus, pure and simple.
A Lt. Com seat is utterly worth losing an Lt. seat. That's a complete no brainer.
And hardly anyone is suggesting that the Valiant be as good as the Pilot Escorts. Or at least, I'm not. Just that the defining aspect of being a simple gun platform has been usurped by objectively better ships. The Valiant is not faster or tougher than the Phantom or Pilot Escorts. It doesn't have more firepower than the Hestia or Alita. It's just a very plain, unremarkable, mediocre Escort.
Personally, I'm a guy that likes vanilla over any flavor, but the Valiant is far too watered down to be called that. It's be diluted by the existence of similar and simply better ships.
If I'm not mistaken, you can't shoot while using pilot maneuvers. That's the trade off.
And even if a hangar is of dubious worth, it adds flavor to a ship at no cost. The Alita doesn't have to equip a console to use it's hangar. It doesn't lose any weapon slots. It's just there for people to enjoy. It's a bonus, pure and simple.
A Lt. Com seat is utterly worth losing an Lt. seat. That's a complete no brainer.
No, even that is a no-brainer. The more powers you have for a particular career, the less valuable an additional power of the same career becomes, since you run into global/shared cooldown conflicts - being able to slot a Lt. power of a career you don't have many powers from can be more valuable.
The game has a lot of cooldown reduction abilities now, and doubling up on powers has become pretty useless for the most part. You can basically get by with a single Commander Tactical on an Escort now, and add survivability, crowd control, utility or non-tactical damage buffs in the other slots.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Here is the thing...the ywill make PLENTY of money still because this playerbase isn't as put on by stats as this forum suggests. Many of us buy ships because they look cool. Hell, every single ship I have gotten so far will be because I think they look cool.
I speculate that the majority of players want a balance though. A ship who's appearance they like that's also a great ship. I don't think that's too much to ask that ships at least be right on par with one another.
I understand why people buy the Valiant, they get it because the love the Defiant.. fair enough. I just wouldn't do it myself, it seems like 3k Zen for a skin that's slapped on an under powered ship.
That's just me though, I do sincerely hope that those who purchase it really enjoy it.
Here is the thing...the ywill make PLENTY of money still because this playerbase isn't as put on by stats as this forum suggests. Many of us buy ships because they look cool. Hell, every single ship I have gotten so far will be because I think they look cool.
I speculate that the majority of players want a balance though. A ship who's appearance they like that's also a great ship. I don't think that's too much to ask that ships at least be right on par with one another.
I understand why people buy the Valiant, they get it because the love the Defiant.. fair enough. I just wouldn't do it myself, it seems like 3k Zen for a skin that's slapped on an under powered ship.
That's just me though, I do sincerely hope that those who purchase it really enjoy it.
This is exactly what I'm talking about...people that perpetuate the power creep...just because a ship is better than it doesn't mean it's underpowered...
Exactly what is wrong with the game...people like you think that because a ship is not THEE best in its class it is underpowered...well you know what...if the T6 Defiant is weak in your hands it isn't the ship's fault!
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
All the upper tier ships we are flying are modern and fitted with current 2409 technology, so let's stop to be so anal about the shape of ships, because that's all they are.
And the discussion has completely left the OP behind here. He wasn't asking for the most powerful whatever, he was asking about comparing the capabilities of different ships and if all those different ships have their own "uniqueness". He seems to feel the T6 Defiant has not.
I would like to offer some insight into the ships he is comparing, but I'm not big on escorts myself and don't own any of those mentioned.
It is what it is...it's a fan service and if the OP doesn't like it then he doesn't have to buy it...plain and simple.
Not everyone care about if ship A is more powerful than ship B...
Well, the Op doesn't. Like I wrote in my post, it's not about more powerful but about equal appeal.
Every ship can't be equal...
And no one said equal, I said equal appeal, like in different options. If one ship is just flat out worse in everything than a comparable vessel (you know, ship class, tier, price etc.). Now I'm not saying that is the case here, but that is what the OP wanted to discuss before everything got derailed.
Back on track some:
If you pay a lot of attention (Read: Galaxy treadnought of yore), you'll find that Cryptic has a bit of a philosophy:
"Canon" will never equal OP. Otherwise, nobody will buy anything else but "Canon".
Period.
In a game that makes it's money primarily off of ships (whether straight-up like these C-store ships, or lockbox prize), they can't make a "god and hero" ship, otherwise nobody would buy anything else, ever.
How's this sound for the "science" community:
"Fleet" T6 variants of all the TOS "hero" ships. So Connie, D7 & T'liss. 4/2 weapon loadout, 2x aux racial arrays, 1x aux racial DBB, 1x aux racial Omni Array. Leaves 2x torp slots for Rep torps, and Racial = blue phaser for fed, green disruptors for KDF & Rom.
BOff seating is Cmdr Sci, LtCmdr Sci(Intel), Tac(Pilot), Eng(Command) - representing Checkov, Sulu and Scotty, respectively. Spock holds that Cmdr Sci chair...
5/3/3 consoles. Special is "Corbomite" console, which acts like a major feedback pulse (so enemies that shoot at ship pop as the threat would have indicated), and it's able to slot the Defiant/Gal-X cloak console (Enterprise Incident).
Hull, shield modifier, maneuverability, etc., all based off of a "hypothetical" T6 Vesta...
Would anyone who's seriously into science not fly one of these? Well, unless they had a Temporal Sci (Wells family / Annorax)?
And then, what would you build that's "science" that could trump this without turning power creep up to 11?
So, I sit here, waiting for even a T5U Science Connie that's close to a Vesta without having the hangar. Even then, I'd probably fly it a lot...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
No, even that is a no-brainer. The more powers you have for a particular career, the less valuable an additional power of the same career becomes, since you run into global/shared cooldown conflicts - being able to slot a Lt. power of a career you don't have many powers from can be more valuable.
The game has a lot of cooldown reduction abilities now, and doubling up on powers has become pretty useless for the most part. You can basically get by with a single Commander Tactical on an Escort now, and add survivability, crowd control, utility or non-tactical damage buffs in the other slots.
Lt. Com seats have access to powers that Lt. seats don't. They also have the most effective incarnation of numerous abilities, many of which are core to most builds. Basically a Lt. Com slot is a huge power spike for a ship to have, as well as added versatility.
You also don't seem to understand that it's the ensign slot that's a pain in the TRIBBLE to players. It's the most numerous slot on any ship, yet has the fewest available powers. Turning an ensign seat into an lt. seat doesn't eliminate the problem that the ensign slot represents in the first place.
I mean, seriously? You suggested that an Lt. slot is better than a Lt. Com slot? What are you smoking?
How's this sound for the "science" community:
"Fleet" T6 variants of all the TOS "hero" ships. So Connie, D7 & T'liss. 4/2 weapon loadout, 2x aux racial arrays, 1x aux racial DBB, 1x aux racial Omni Array. Leaves 2x torp slots for Rep torps, and Racial = blue phaser for fed, green disruptors for KDF & Rom.
BOff seating is Cmdr Sci, LtCmdr Sci(Intel), Tac(Pilot), Eng(Command) - representing Checkov, Sulu and Scotty, respectively. Spock holds that Cmdr Sci chair...
5/3/3 consoles. Special is "Corbomite" console, which acts like a major feedback pulse (so enemies that shoot at ship pop as the threat would have indicated), and it's able to slot the Defiant/Gal-X cloak console (Enterprise Incident).
Hull, shield modifier, maneuverability, etc., all based off of a "hypothetical" T6 Vesta...
You can have that if you want but I wouldn't touch it if you paid me. For starters it's a Connie, second you'd be forcing me to use a DBB, thirdly it's too top heavy on boffs. Give me the current T5U fleet Nova arrangement with LtC engineer (Or maybe an extra ensign uni/tac and make the LtC tac a pilot seat) and a full set of aux power beam arrays and you have yourself a deal.
If I'm not mistaken, you can't shoot while using pilot maneuvers. That's the trade off.
And even if a hangar is of dubious worth, it adds flavor to a ship at no cost. The Alita doesn't have to equip a console to use it's hangar. It doesn't lose any weapon slots. It's just there for people to enjoy. It's a bonus, pure and simple.
A Lt. Com seat is utterly worth losing an Lt. seat. That's a complete no brainer.
And hardly anyone is suggesting that the Valiant be as good as the Pilot Escorts. Or at least, I'm not. Just that the defining aspect of being a simple gun platform has been usurped by objectively better ships. The Valiant is not faster or tougher than the Phantom or Pilot Escorts. It doesn't have more firepower than the Hestia or Alita. It's just a very plain, unremarkable, mediocre Escort.
Personally, I'm a guy that likes vanilla over any flavor, but the Valiant is far too watered down to be called that. It's be diluted by the existence of similar and simply better ships.
Pilot Maneuvers are simply a means of escape or getting into better combat positioning instantaneously. You can't shoot but considering it makes you immune to most things in this game with barely a handful of seconds of recharge time, not shooting while conducting Pilot Maneuvers is an absolutely insignificant cost. There is absolutely NOTHING in this game that grants several seconds of damage immunity, immunity from a lot of CC, putting a lot of distance in a short amount of time, with the extremely short recharge timer that Pilot Maneuvers have. Nothing. No Specialization Ship Bonus ability has this but Pilot Maneuvers. No Console ability, no set bonus ability, no special ability has this kind of power and availability.
The Single Hangar on ships I have long derided as pointless. They depend on numbers to do their magic and 1 hangar does not bring enough numbers.
As for Valiant and people suggesting that it be as good as the Pilot Escorts, you've missed a lot of reading on these boards. People wanted Battle Cloaks, Pilot Maneuvers. People wanted Cmdr Hybrids and a host of other desires that anyone with a sane mind in this game would know would NOT come on these things, not on T5->T6 converted ships.
T6 Defiant is a good ship. It's true failing is failing to meet the unrealistic expectations people had of this ship leading into its release. People had their heads in the clouds like the T6 Defiant was going to be the next GOD SHIP of this game with all kinds of unreasonable features that it was guaranteed to disappoint. Guys like me were warning people to reign in their expectations because people were setting themselves up for disappointment.
Pilot Maneuvers are simply a means of escape or getting into better combat positioning instantaneously. You can't shoot but considering it makes you immune to most things in this game with barely a handful of seconds of recharge time, not shooting while conducting Pilot Maneuvers is an absolutely insignificant cost. There is absolutely NOTHING in this game that grants several seconds of damage immunity, immunity from a lot of CC, putting a lot of distance in a short amount of time, with the extremely short recharge timer that Pilot Maneuvers have. Nothing. No Specialization Ship Bonus ability has this but Pilot Maneuvers. No Console ability, no set bonus ability, no special ability has this kind of power and availability.
I understand with good handling they are advantageous to have. Being able to dodge a torpedo spread or set up an attack run more quickly. Still, losing the ability to shoot does put a damper on them when compared to non-invul survivability skills and abilities. Being able to ground and pound has it's own advantages.
The Single Hangar on ships I have long derided as pointless. They depend on numbers to do their magic and 1 hangar does not bring enough numbers.
I would say pets in general are a gimmick, given how their damage can't be modified as easily as weapons or abilities, while not being anywhere near as consistent. Still, aesthetically they are pleasing to people and come at a relatively low cost to have. Basically every ship that has them has them as a bonus.
As for Valiant and people suggesting that it be as good as the Pilot Escorts, you've missed a lot of reading on these boards. People wanted Battle Cloaks, Pilot Maneuvers. People wanted Cmdr Hybrids and a host of other desires that anyone with a sane mind in this game would know would NOT come on these things, not on T5->T6 converted ships.
I think an integrated cloak or a 5/2 layout would be good. As it is, the Valiant is a poor substitute for the Phantom, which, ignoring the Intelligence Hybrid seats, scanner, and integrated cloak, it'd have two Lt. Com seats. The only advantage the Valiant has over the Phantom is a couple thousand more hit points. Otherwise they're the same ship. The specialized ship stripped of everything that makes it specialized is still superior to the standardized version!
T6 Defiant is a good ship. It's true failing is failing to meet the unrealistic expectations people had of this ship leading into its release.
No, it's failing was that it's a pure gun platform released after 4 Escorts that outperform it by every measure in that role. Even if it didn't have the other ships around for comparison, it's a very boring upgrade.
Exactly what is wrong with the game...people like you think that because a ship is not THEE best in its class it is underpowered...well you know what...if the T6 Defiant is weak in your hands it isn't the ship's fault!
Well, I'm going to put your hostility aside and try to address the topic here. If you kindly re-read what I posed, I never said the Defiant, or any other ship should be 'THE BEST,' I said 'on par with' other ships. Meaning they should be roughly equivalent.
Personally, I fly a Presidio as my main cruiser. I have other ships I can do more damage with, I can get better performance out of my Eclipse, but I don't fly it much because I simply don't like it. You're letting your hostility over the issue lead you to make unwarranted and unnecessary assumptions about people you don't even know. In my case, at least the Presidio can hold pace with the Eclipse, it's not quite 'as good' but I don't take a very big step back, the ships are competitive.
In the case of the Defiant, they failed to give the Defiant anything that lets it excel in any area outside of possibly cannon builds due to it's trait. I was not advocating that it needs to be the most powerful, but I do think that the Valiant needs just a little more to put it closer to par with other available escorts. I'm not talking about a major revamp, just something unique outside of it's skin to make it special. If you like your Valiant, then I'm glad you enjoy it, but many people will avoid the purchase just because they feel they can get more for the money with other ships.
No one is talking about having to have 'the best' of anything, but at 3k Zen, people should get something other then a skin. If you don't feel that the Defiant is outclassed by other ships, then fair enough. Many other people however, do feel that it got the short end of the stick and should get a little bit more just to bring it up to par. If you disagree, then ok, but keep the discussion to the ship and lets avoid making assumptions about each others skill level or play style.
Exactly what is wrong with the game...people like you think that because a ship is not THEE best in its class it is underpowered...well you know what...if the T6 Defiant is weak in your hands it isn't the ship's fault!
Well, I'm going to put your hostility aside and try to address the topic here. If you kindly re-read what I posed, I never said the Defiant, or any other ship should be 'THE BEST,' I said 'on par with' other ships. Meaning they should be roughly equivalent.
Personally, I fly a Presidio as my main cruiser. I have other ships I can do more damage with, I can get better performance out of my Eclipse, but I don't fly it much because I simply don't like it. You're letting your hostility over the issue lead you to make unwarranted and unnecessary assumptions about people you don't even know. In my case, at least the Presidio can hold pace with the Eclipse, it's not quite 'as good' but I don't take a very big step back, the ships are competitive.
In the case of the Defiant, they failed to give the Defiant anything that lets it excel in any area outside of possibly cannon builds due to it's trait. I was not advocating that it needs to be the most powerful, but I do think that the Valiant needs just a little more to put it closer to par with other available escorts. I'm not talking about a major revamp, just something unique outside of it's skin to make it special. If you like your Valiant, then I'm glad you enjoy it, but many people will avoid the purchase just because they feel they can get more for the money with other ships.
No one is talking about having to have 'the best' of anything, but at 3k Zen, people should get something other then a skin. If you don't feel that the Defiant is outclassed by other ships, then fair enough. Many other people however, do feel that it got the short end of the stick and should get a little bit more just to bring it up to par. If you disagree, then ok, but keep the discussion to the ship and lets avoid making assumptions about each others skill level or play style.
Well what would the Defiant be if it was equal to what is considered the best Escort line in the game?
Like I've been saying it's a fan service...the hardcore fans of the Defiant aren't going to pass on it because it's not as strong as the best Escort in game...just like the Pathfinder isn't as strong as the Scryer but I purchased the Pathfinder anyways.
I'm considering...heck planning to purchase the Valiant one day and I own the Fed Pilot Escort 3 pack...not all ships are about power...do you think the explorer or dreadnought are as powerful as your Presidio? No, but people still bought both because they're fans of the ships.
Besides if the hero ships are going to get a buff I think the Pathfinder is first in line! I want a Lt Cmdr Intel hybrid slot
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Comments
With that in mind, I ask this:
If anyone out there, regardless of faction, is flying an Escort or anything remotely close to one, why aren't they all flying Pilot Ships, provided they have the resources to get it?
Because its more important to like the ship you fly and have fun with it than it is to have an OP lolbuild which destroys everything in sight.
What use is function without fun?
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Because Pilot ships don't have everything. They don't have 2 Lt. Com slots, and they don't have a hangar. Having extra buttons to press can be a bit of a turn off to people (I don't like having more buttons). Some people would prefer raw stats over bells and whistles, and while the Pilot Escorts have plenty of firepower, they aren't built especially tough.
That said, anything the Pilot Escorts aren't suited to, the Hestia, Alita, and Phantom are. There's no place for the Valiant in that line up.
I think not.
I bought it for what it was, a T6 version of a ship I like...it's not my fault you were kidding yourself into thinking that these T6 ships are much more than a fan service.
If you don't like that then don't buy it or convert for it...plain and simple...you're silly if you think these ships are for more than the people who want a T6 version of their old favorites.
If you need so much creep just to fly a ship then it isn't the ship that is weak...it's the pilot that is weak.
And the discussion has completely left the OP behind here. He wasn't asking for the most powerful whatever, he was asking about comparing the capabilities of different ships and if all those different ships have their own "uniqueness". He seems to feel the T6 Defiant has not.
I would like to offer some insight into the ships he is comparing, but I'm not big on escorts myself and don't own any of those mentioned.
It is what it is...it's a fan service and if the OP doesn't like it then he doesn't have to buy it...plain and simple.
Not everyone care about if ship A is more powerful than ship B...
Well, the Op doesn't. Like I wrote in my post, it's not about more powerful but about equal appeal.
Every ship can't be equal...
And no one said equal, I said equal appeal, like in different options. If one ship is just flat out worse in everything than a comparable vessel (you know, ship class, tier, price etc.). Now I'm not saying that is the case here, but that is what the OP wanted to discuss before everything got derailed.
The T6 Dread is flat out superior to the Exploration Cruiser...the Annorax is superior in almost every way to other Science ships...it happens in the game all the time...buy it or not...but don't pretend like it never happened in the game ever before because it's your favorite ship (OP).
We're at a new level of power for escorts. Its already happenned. It wasn't done by the players it was done by Cryptic. Releasing weak ships will not take us back to before we jumped to a new power level. No one is asking for a new power level, just for the Valiant to be as powerful as the current escorts. You know what? I HOPE your wish comes true and all ships from here on out are weaker than pre existing ships. I´d love to see Cryptic start monetizing the game in ways other than endless ships, because nothing but weaker ships is not going to cut it for supporting the game.
A good example.
Point on the lack of dual LtCmdr stations. But there is a caveat to the Dual LtCmdr. You'll have a stronger station with the 2nd LtCmdr but it takes away from another station and leaves it with an Ens one only. There's give and take to having 1 LtCmdr or 2 in the BOFF layout.
- The benefits of single hangar bays are meaningless in the game. For me, the lack of a hangar is not a sore point about the Pilot Ships. If you're going to go Carrier, you go all the way with 2 hangars. If not, let's not pretend 1 hangar of fragile fighters that depend on the mass numbers capable of 2 hangar carriers, or shuttles that come in very few numbers on 1 hangar ships are decent.
- Buttons to press? You talking the Consoles on the Pilot Ships? GET RID OF THEM. Seriously, they don't bring that much. They're gimmick consoles. Get rid of them and all the sudden, 3 console slots are free to use! Less clutter on the Power Trays! Pilot Maneuvers? They're the game's GET OUT OF JAIL Cards. There are no extra buttons to press other than what you're already using to fly the ship already. You do NOT have to use the Pilot Maneuvers Panel. It can be configured to use your current flight keys. So the issue of a cluttered UI is not there with the Pilot Ships.
- I will say this: While the Pilot Ships have weaker hull, they don't need it. They travel faster than ANY Escort that isn't the Risian Corvette. They have turn rates on par with the Corvette, Bugships, KDF Birds of Prey. They inherently get more Bonus Defense than even other Escorts that can get good Bonus Defense. Bonus Defense / Speed Tanking is a very old school mechanic Cryptic introduced a year after STO released. Escorts are the best in the game on bonus defense and Pilot Ships are above what other Escorts can do. There was a thread a player asked regarding how survivable the Pilot Ships really were when they were released. He was concerned about the lower hull. There's enough responses, some including from myself to point out that survivability in a Pilot Ship is a non-issue and is actually EASIER than other Escorts despite the lighter hull. The best form of survivability is NOT getting hit.
The Pilot Ships are fast, maneuverable, easy to survive, have special *worthwhile* gimmicks, and all possess 5 fwd weapons, 5 TAC Consoles. They overshadow what everything else can do for their respective factions.
You want a TAC heavy Escort? There's a Pilot Ship for that.
You want a "Destroyer" styled Escort with a LtCmdr ENG station? There's a Pilot Ship for that.
You want a SCI-Scort? There's a Pilot Ship for that.
And all variants share the same speed, maneuverability, outstanding firepower, elusiveness, regardless of variant you choose. Their gimmick with Pilot Maneuvers sets them apart. The only thing they don't do is Dual LtCmdr but that has its own flaws as pointed out earlier. With all the things they can do they are clearly superior Escorts. Ever since the Pilot Ships came out earlier in the year, every single new Escort that comes along is compared to them. They are the Gold Standard. Think back on every thread that arose when a new Escort was coming out or when someone is fielding opinions on what Escort he/she should consider next. And you will find that everything else comes up wanting when compared to the Pilot Ships. You will find that the Pilot Ships are repeatedly recommended.
So again... The Pilot Ships are clear cut superior Escorts. Yet they are not the only Escorts flying in this game, or vast swathes of the Escort playerbase are not flying them.
I'll say one more thing for the 'survivability' of Pilot Ships.. don't even worry about the hull rating, you won't need it. Pilot sips are the most survivable ships in the game outside of the heftiest cruiser you can buy. Why? Pilot Maneuvers..
Pilot Maneuvers are on an 8 second cool down. Executing a Pilot Maneuver gives you 3-4 seconds of total invulnerability to any damage. So every 8 seconds, you can get 3-4 seconds of total immunity to all incoming damage. Now sure, it's not 100%, enemies can disable your pilot maneuvers with Tractor Beams and other movement impairing devices, but that's when you use your regular heals like you would any other ship.
I'll put it this way.. I suck with Escorts. I just do.. I'm a pretty solid Cruiser Captain, but putting me in an escort usually means I'm going to under perform. I generally find the style difficult to play and when things are moving so fast, and timing becomes so much more crucial, I find it easy to make what I call 'panic mistakes.' Where you spaz out and just do something stupid.
That being the case, even I don't die in my Icarus. In fact, I have survived some content that might even have taken down my Presidio, and I NEVER die in my Presidio. When things are getting hectic, I just use my heals to keep me going and spam my barrel rolls until I can get healed up. It's saved me more times then I can count.
Pilot Escorts have completely re-defined the Escort Class. Simply put, everything else is second rate by comparison.
And even if a hangar is of dubious worth, it adds flavor to a ship at no cost. The Alita doesn't have to equip a console to use it's hangar. It doesn't lose any weapon slots. It's just there for people to enjoy. It's a bonus, pure and simple.
A Lt. Com seat is utterly worth losing an Lt. seat. That's a complete no brainer.
And hardly anyone is suggesting that the Valiant be as good as the Pilot Escorts. Or at least, I'm not. Just that the defining aspect of being a simple gun platform has been usurped by objectively better ships. The Valiant is not faster or tougher than the Phantom or Pilot Escorts. It doesn't have more firepower than the Hestia or Alita. It's just a very plain, unremarkable, mediocre Escort.
Personally, I'm a guy that likes vanilla over any flavor, but the Valiant is far too watered down to be called that. It's be diluted by the existence of similar and simply better ships.
The game has a lot of cooldown reduction abilities now, and doubling up on powers has become pretty useless for the most part. You can basically get by with a single Commander Tactical on an Escort now, and add survivability, crowd control, utility or non-tactical damage buffs in the other slots.
I speculate that the majority of players want a balance though. A ship who's appearance they like that's also a great ship. I don't think that's too much to ask that ships at least be right on par with one another.
I understand why people buy the Valiant, they get it because the love the Defiant.. fair enough. I just wouldn't do it myself, it seems like 3k Zen for a skin that's slapped on an under powered ship.
That's just me though, I do sincerely hope that those who purchase it really enjoy it.
This is exactly what I'm talking about...people that perpetuate the power creep...just because a ship is better than it doesn't mean it's underpowered...
Exactly what is wrong with the game...people like you think that because a ship is not THEE best in its class it is underpowered...well you know what...if the T6 Defiant is weak in your hands it isn't the ship's fault!
Back on track some:
If you pay a lot of attention (Read: Galaxy treadnought of yore), you'll find that Cryptic has a bit of a philosophy:
"Canon" will never equal OP. Otherwise, nobody will buy anything else but "Canon".
Period.
In a game that makes it's money primarily off of ships (whether straight-up like these C-store ships, or lockbox prize), they can't make a "god and hero" ship, otherwise nobody would buy anything else, ever.
How's this sound for the "science" community:
"Fleet" T6 variants of all the TOS "hero" ships. So Connie, D7 & T'liss. 4/2 weapon loadout, 2x aux racial arrays, 1x aux racial DBB, 1x aux racial Omni Array. Leaves 2x torp slots for Rep torps, and Racial = blue phaser for fed, green disruptors for KDF & Rom.
BOff seating is Cmdr Sci, LtCmdr Sci(Intel), Tac(Pilot), Eng(Command) - representing Checkov, Sulu and Scotty, respectively. Spock holds that Cmdr Sci chair...
5/3/3 consoles. Special is "Corbomite" console, which acts like a major feedback pulse (so enemies that shoot at ship pop as the threat would have indicated), and it's able to slot the Defiant/Gal-X cloak console (Enterprise Incident).
Hull, shield modifier, maneuverability, etc., all based off of a "hypothetical" T6 Vesta...
Would anyone who's seriously into science not fly one of these? Well, unless they had a Temporal Sci (Wells family / Annorax)?
And then, what would you build that's "science" that could trump this without turning power creep up to 11?
So, I sit here, waiting for even a T5U Science Connie that's close to a Vesta without having the hangar. Even then, I'd probably fly it a lot...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Lt. Com seats have access to powers that Lt. seats don't. They also have the most effective incarnation of numerous abilities, many of which are core to most builds. Basically a Lt. Com slot is a huge power spike for a ship to have, as well as added versatility.
You also don't seem to understand that it's the ensign slot that's a pain in the TRIBBLE to players. It's the most numerous slot on any ship, yet has the fewest available powers. Turning an ensign seat into an lt. seat doesn't eliminate the problem that the ensign slot represents in the first place.
I mean, seriously? You suggested that an Lt. slot is better than a Lt. Com slot? What are you smoking?
You can have that if you want but I wouldn't touch it if you paid me. For starters it's a Connie, second you'd be forcing me to use a DBB, thirdly it's too top heavy on boffs. Give me the current T5U fleet Nova arrangement with LtC engineer (Or maybe an extra ensign uni/tac and make the LtC tac a pilot seat) and a full set of aux power beam arrays and you have yourself a deal.
Pilot Maneuvers are simply a means of escape or getting into better combat positioning instantaneously. You can't shoot but considering it makes you immune to most things in this game with barely a handful of seconds of recharge time, not shooting while conducting Pilot Maneuvers is an absolutely insignificant cost. There is absolutely NOTHING in this game that grants several seconds of damage immunity, immunity from a lot of CC, putting a lot of distance in a short amount of time, with the extremely short recharge timer that Pilot Maneuvers have. Nothing. No Specialization Ship Bonus ability has this but Pilot Maneuvers. No Console ability, no set bonus ability, no special ability has this kind of power and availability.
The Single Hangar on ships I have long derided as pointless. They depend on numbers to do their magic and 1 hangar does not bring enough numbers.
As for Valiant and people suggesting that it be as good as the Pilot Escorts, you've missed a lot of reading on these boards. People wanted Battle Cloaks, Pilot Maneuvers. People wanted Cmdr Hybrids and a host of other desires that anyone with a sane mind in this game would know would NOT come on these things, not on T5->T6 converted ships.
T6 Defiant is a good ship. It's true failing is failing to meet the unrealistic expectations people had of this ship leading into its release. People had their heads in the clouds like the T6 Defiant was going to be the next GOD SHIP of this game with all kinds of unreasonable features that it was guaranteed to disappoint. Guys like me were warning people to reign in their expectations because people were setting themselves up for disappointment.
I understand with good handling they are advantageous to have. Being able to dodge a torpedo spread or set up an attack run more quickly. Still, losing the ability to shoot does put a damper on them when compared to non-invul survivability skills and abilities. Being able to ground and pound has it's own advantages.
I would say pets in general are a gimmick, given how their damage can't be modified as easily as weapons or abilities, while not being anywhere near as consistent. Still, aesthetically they are pleasing to people and come at a relatively low cost to have. Basically every ship that has them has them as a bonus.
I think an integrated cloak or a 5/2 layout would be good. As it is, the Valiant is a poor substitute for the Phantom, which, ignoring the Intelligence Hybrid seats, scanner, and integrated cloak, it'd have two Lt. Com seats. The only advantage the Valiant has over the Phantom is a couple thousand more hit points. Otherwise they're the same ship. The specialized ship stripped of everything that makes it specialized is still superior to the standardized version!
No, it's failing was that it's a pure gun platform released after 4 Escorts that outperform it by every measure in that role. Even if it didn't have the other ships around for comparison, it's a very boring upgrade.
Well, I'm going to put your hostility aside and try to address the topic here. If you kindly re-read what I posed, I never said the Defiant, or any other ship should be 'THE BEST,' I said 'on par with' other ships. Meaning they should be roughly equivalent.
Personally, I fly a Presidio as my main cruiser. I have other ships I can do more damage with, I can get better performance out of my Eclipse, but I don't fly it much because I simply don't like it. You're letting your hostility over the issue lead you to make unwarranted and unnecessary assumptions about people you don't even know. In my case, at least the Presidio can hold pace with the Eclipse, it's not quite 'as good' but I don't take a very big step back, the ships are competitive.
In the case of the Defiant, they failed to give the Defiant anything that lets it excel in any area outside of possibly cannon builds due to it's trait. I was not advocating that it needs to be the most powerful, but I do think that the Valiant needs just a little more to put it closer to par with other available escorts. I'm not talking about a major revamp, just something unique outside of it's skin to make it special. If you like your Valiant, then I'm glad you enjoy it, but many people will avoid the purchase just because they feel they can get more for the money with other ships.
No one is talking about having to have 'the best' of anything, but at 3k Zen, people should get something other then a skin. If you don't feel that the Defiant is outclassed by other ships, then fair enough. Many other people however, do feel that it got the short end of the stick and should get a little bit more just to bring it up to par. If you disagree, then ok, but keep the discussion to the ship and lets avoid making assumptions about each others skill level or play style.
Well what would the Defiant be if it was equal to what is considered the best Escort line in the game?
Like I've been saying it's a fan service...the hardcore fans of the Defiant aren't going to pass on it because it's not as strong as the best Escort in game...just like the Pathfinder isn't as strong as the Scryer but I purchased the Pathfinder anyways.
I'm considering...heck planning to purchase the Valiant one day and I own the Fed Pilot Escort 3 pack...not all ships are about power...do you think the explorer or dreadnought are as powerful as your Presidio? No, but people still bought both because they're fans of the ships.
Besides if the hero ships are going to get a buff I think the Pathfinder is first in line! I want a Lt Cmdr Intel hybrid slot
You quickly assign Sci abilities to that hybrid station...
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev