@admiralkogar I'm sorry(not sorry) that is mooseshiat.
The proof of the pudding is in eating it. Unless you can show an example of someone who wasn't AFK, and in fact meaningfully participating, getting an undeserved AFK ban; your premises are flawed.
The AFK ban is working fairly and as intended.
You need to prove that it isn't.
Any defense of such a wrong punishment cannot help but be wrong in and of itself.
before ANYTHING else, you need to prove that that punishment is wrong. you have yet to do so. All you've provided is your statement that you where participating and being useful, yet you got an AFK ban. I'm sorry(not sorry) but you have no credibility. No one here has to take you at your word. provide proof or go away.
A long time ago i used to work SQA for a computer hardware manufacturer. The devs of the drivers would not look at any bug report unless i provided proof that a glitch existed and a method for reproducing the bug.
This is what you need to do: if you really believe that the AFK ban system is glitched, then you need to both prove the existance of the bug AND show the method to reproduce it (that anyone can replicate).
No one cares how you feel about it. Provide scientific proof. That is all.
If you need proof that it is the AFK penalty isn't fair (which is IMPOSSIBLE FYI as fair is a FEELING) then why shouldn't people on the otherside need proof that it is fair? You all seem to be thinking about JUST your point of view. Now the second part about as intended. If terribad players who were active all through the gameplay and were active gets the penalty...well, it OBVIOUSLY is not working as intended as what the penalty intends is IN THE FRAKING NAME. What you want isn't an AFK penalty. You want a you are a bad player penalty (or you got DCed or SNR penalty since I have gotten this a few times because of those).
That said, I'm actually for having this system in place...just tweaked for the couple of 5-60 missions (because really, that needs to be tweaked). I actually like this system as it keeps the leechers out of advanced and elites. It has actually reduced the people who AFK pretty significantly. The system, while not working as intended and probably being unfair to some people is doing a pretty good job of keeping inconsiderate players from being inconsiderate. Now I am sure that a system of active time like people suggested could work better...but that is precious dev time. I would rather they spend that elsewhere since this system actually works pretty well...even if it maybe considered unfair by some. It's a matter of priorties...and this game has WAY more important things to fix then the AFK penalty system (now a quick tweak so the damage of lower level players gets wieghted for the purpose of the AFK system something that can be done by one person in less then one hour...so they should do that).
Honestly, I have to say, you seem to be very even handed about this. You support my argument, but defend the basic penalty, asking only that it be modified. I could support your position.
It isn't an AFK penalty, and fair can be subjective, but something needs to be in place. All true. All around, I'd say if things were done as you suggest, for just the few 5-60 missions, I'd be back to playing. I'd be able to steer my nuggets to a good place to get started.
At this point I am only here for the sake of the new people. I am not enjoying this effort at all.
The problem is the methodology used to detect afk. Seems to me if a ship is maneuvering and firing then they are not afk. Even if someone is running some sort of program, at least an effort is made. Maybe a solution would be to require a certain point be reached or something. Or, preferably, some sort of filter, based on your eps or whatever, though it may suck waiting for a group if you are a superdsper
Seriously how far can you "pimp out" a level 12 science toon in a freebie cruiser? running retro phasers? gear from delta recruit thing? basic boffs? no doffs? this is a level 12 toon.
Pretty darn well, actually. We used to do this back when it wasn't a totally dead scene, taking one of these newbie birds and loading them up with everything we could possibly staple onto them, and murdering the TRIBBLE out of everyone and everything in Kerrat.
At minimum, you can stick a set of matching weapons you handpicked off the Exchange, or at least from your mission rewards...something the typical player probably has no idea how to do at that point in the game. Or, for that matter, at level 60, given that you were outgunning them.
The point is, you clearly knew what you were doing, which is more than can be said for at least 50% of the players in the game at any level.
Remember: Most players don't parse. The game doesn't tell you ANYTHING about how well you did. They just don't know they're bad. Nothing in the game is telling them that they're bad. All they know is that they were suddenly socked with an AFK penalty, when they know they were most assuredly not. They probably can't even tell they didn't get to shoot, since they were blinded by all the kemocide explosions or the Epilepsy Beam.
You don't need some dps parser, to inform one self they are bad, simple logic of not being able to destroy things fairly quickly on their own + any penalty system, should be a huge clue to this issue!
In other words, if you are dying multiple times by the same single enemy, you need work!
If you take some 5-10mins., to destroy a single non-boss enemy, you need work!
If it takes 2-5 players dying constantly, to defeat a single non-boss enemy, they all need work!
Etc.
True, but what kind of work and how much of it? That's where the parser helps.
True, but just like what some peeps refer to as a seat of the pants dyno in regards to automotive performance, one can evaluate their own seat of the pants combat effectiveness.
Bad player(s) need to improve, all others need get over themselves, and deal with it!
For those who do not have an issue, it is because there isn't that big of an issue to warrant a removal!
Nothing wrong with the first sentence in my opinion. Everyone should strive for improvement. People need to be able to adjust and move on.
I like your other post about parsing vs seat of the pants. I usually just swap to the combat side of my chat window to get an idea how I just did compared to others. It has been enough for me for two years. I may try parsing, if only to teach the interested.
I want to clarify that I am not for removal of the measures to stop leeches. I am for adjustment of the means used to screen for leeches so that it also allows for the variety of honest players who may not be effective. That is it. I just want a little cover for low level players entering an arena where they mix with high level ones. Modification, not a total removal.
If you need proof that it is the AFK penalty isn't fair (which is IMPOSSIBLE FYI as fair is a FEELING) then why shouldn't people on the otherside need proof that it is fair? You all seem to be thinking about JUST your point of view. Now the second part about as intended. If terribad players who were active all through the gameplay and were active gets the penalty...well, it OBVIOUSLY is not working as intended as what the penalty intends is IN THE FRAKING NAME. What you want isn't an AFK penalty. You want a you are a bad player penalty (or you got DCed or SNR penalty since I have gotten this a few times because of those).
That said, I'm actually for having this system in place...just tweaked for the couple of 5-60 missions (because really, that needs to be tweaked). I actually like this system as it keeps the leechers out of advanced and elites. It has actually reduced the people who AFK pretty significantly. The system, while not working as intended and probably being unfair to some people is doing a pretty good job of keeping inconsiderate players from being inconsiderate. Now I am sure that a system of active time like people suggested could work better...but that is precious dev time. I would rather they spend that elsewhere since this system actually works pretty well...even if it maybe considered unfair by some. It's a matter of priorties...and this game has WAY more important things to fix then the AFK penalty system (now a quick tweak so the damage of lower level players gets wieghted for the purpose of the AFK system something that can be done by one person in less then one hour...so they should do that).
I appreciate the suggestions and observations made by you, coldnapalm, annemarie30, saross, ruinthefun, and e30ernest, in the last few posts.
So 'not' removing the system why not scale it? I am guessing, but if you can scale the enemies up to match the player level, you should be able to scale for minimum performance. Why not? It seems like the code must be there somewhere.
It would satisfy any concerns about noob players, or new characters. It would leave your and my high level toons free from carrying leeches (noobs/nuggets I will happily put up with because they are honest players, no matter the skill) It would mean that level 5-60 Fleet Alerts were actually accepting of level 5 as well as level 60 in more than just the description.
It would allow this topic to fade and die. Which I really wish it would. I'm here to play the game, and help others play it, not to be doing this. I feel this pain in the behind battle is part of my job as a Fleet Leader, so I have to stick this out.
I wish a Dev would notice this whole thing, and see some of the reasonable suggestions, and mitigate the negative effects on low level players of the 5-60 level queues. I'd be done. I'm fine with a targeted penalty system, if it actually only hits it's intended target.
You are probably sick of me, sorry about that (honest truth). You probably didn't even want to read this. I'm still going to ask if you would be willing to look at using a sliding scale like is used for enemies, to guide future AFK mechanics?
Level AFK penalties like you level enemies. How many support this concept?
I just did another one of those fleet alert missions where I was nonstop firing at enemies and having a good time, only to receive a 2 hour penalty for being AFK. I know the Devs are never going to address this, but just because one person goes in with an overpowered ship that devastates everything on the screen shouldn't result in every other player being penalized for not doing enough damage.
Yeah, I know no one cares. And I know the Devs don't care. But man, that is so freaking annoying when you're just trying to have fun in the game. I love doing fleet alerts. They're probably the most fun I get out of the game. So 2 hours of my night not being able to do one basically means having to wait until the next day due to the few hours I have to play this game at night.
Yeah, I know. Nobody cares.
See, if you read the above, this is a killjoy mechanic at least sometimes. I don't like that anyone has a few hours of fun trashed by a few lines of code. The OP is discouraged even going into this topic. I can understand why. There is a subculture in STO that is clearly hostile to any examination of the mechanic as it currently is. These remind me of the' Knights who say Ni'. If you don't understand, go research it.
Anyway, I am going to place a suggestion (after reading many thoughtful responses here earlier, thanks all) that we try to get a leveling AFK standard (like the leveling that exists for enemies) instead of a more random one based on % of total irrespective of level, which can vary wildly.
Please chime in, if you have a reason why it sounds good, or a reason why it doesn't. I would prefer actual attempts to help the original poster, as opposed to rude comments about how lame, stupid, etc, they are. The world has enough of that.
See, if you read the above, this is a killjoy mechanic at least sometimes. I don't like that anyone has a few hours of fun trashed by a few lines of code. The OP is discouraged even going into this topic. I can understand why. There is a subculture in STO that is clearly hostile to any examination of the mechanic as it currently is. These remind me of the' Knights who say Ni'. If you don't understand, go research it.
Anyway, I am going to place a suggestion (after reading many thoughtful responses here earlier, thanks all) that we try to get a leveling AFK standard (like the leveling that exists for enemies) instead of a more random one based on % of total irrespective of level, which can vary wildly.
Please chime in, if you have a reason why it sounds good, or a reason why it doesn't. I would prefer actual attempts to help the original poster, as opposed to rude comments about how lame, stupid, etc, they are. The world has enough of that.
Thanks.
Qapla.
The problem with you and the OP is ATTITUDE.
How many times have you all asked in the Academy and the Build section for help? 0 -ZERO
How many times have you all complained in General Discussion and Complained about AFK PENALTY? MANY
Tells you what kind of attitude you guys have, spend more time complaining less time actually avoiding AFK, becoming productive.
A lot of players are willing to help. If you dont like to interact with players, read builds, guides and videos. The issue is players like yourself or the OP dont spend time actually improving one self. Would rather spend time whining and complaining, posting at General Discussions. You would also be rather spoonfed with everything from success to information/data. Because that what AFK penalty removal for you is about, not actually having to improve but getting the same rewards who actually improved.
Well, it's definitely a very real thing. DPSers using cannons or torpedoes frequently notice how running with beam jockeys can negatively affect their DPS outputs due to a significant increase in targets becoming corpses prior to their shots hitting them.
How much worse do you think it could be for people who AREN'T fast or hard-hitting to begin with? 200K Scimitars don't even bother to launch their pets because the fight will be over before those pets can fire. What do you think would happen if those pets were players?
Quite the opposite. Torps nuke faster. Besides nuking faster has nothing to do with weapons platforms but piloting.
Also, 200k in a pug is an impossibility. In order for players to achieve 200k dps, they need to at least have some sort of team debuffing and buffing with some sort of premade setup. PuGs, are unreliable doing team buffs and debuffs nor they are setup to be premades. Even in premades, 200k is very difficult and mostly done on a 3/2 split. Of course no one does an organized 3/2 split in a PuG. Nor does a PuG teamwork equal to 200k DPSers teamwork.
If a player is having issues with DPS or HPS, learn. If dont want to learn and improve, problem aint the game mechanics but player. All of us started as lacking of fundamentals, the main difference would be the attitude when faced with a problem. So it all comes down to the each player's attitude.
is the afk system punishing players for not knowing the content? yes
is the afk system punishing players who know the content, but still cant do the dps of other players? yes.
If one knows the content, but one didnt act to contribute significantly to the team the problem would that players inaction to improve, inaction too apply that improvement.
It all comes down to the player. They know the content yet refuse to improve oneself.
needless penalty just to protect ego's of a few in an antiquated genre, by using antiquated mechanisms, that in practice, in the games environment, exhibit constant systemic failure.
this problem only exists because this silly rpg refuses to be an mmo by implementing (now standard, tried tested and proven,) mp viable reward systems, like a ****ing scoreboard to base rewards on.
rather than this premade table-top premade party with a DM in the room handing out loot derived system.
and the forums response;
"waawaaawaa its your own fault for not being here long enough to know the build meta the game does nothing to clue you on to, and your own fault for not buying the the quasi win-button ship traits that let others hit you with this penalty desfunction"
before ANYTHING else, you need to prove that that punishment is wrong. you have yet to do so. All you've provided is your statement that you where participating and being useful, yet you got an AFK ban. I'm sorry(not sorry) but you have no credibility. No one here has to take you at your word. provide proof or go away.
its really simple, is the afk penalty system(not to say the penalty itself) completly avoidable? yes
1: is the perpose of the penalty to punish players for not knowing the content? no
2: is the afk system punishing players for not knowing the content? yes
3: is the afk system punishing players who know the content, but still cant do the dps of other players? yes.
for a system intended to prevent leeching/botting, that is a systemic failure. a very clear definition of "wrong".
put in a scoreboard akin to any competant MP game to decide rewards, and the afk system becomes irrelevant
2 & 3 are completely avoidable, asking a player(s) to actually make some form of a dps contribution [1-2%], is not asking much at all.
Those who cannot deliver such a low amount, might as well not even be there, and considered afk for all it's worth!
because they are going to be encouraged to improve by banning them from the content they want to get better at, with no feedback on their performance anywhere in-game, and no providing them single player versions of the mp content to practice in.
congratulations on being another person posting a comment entirely based on egotism, detached from the practicalities
of the cause and effect conditions ingame.
Well, guess they need learn what improvement actually is first, than maybe they can determine for themselves if they are indeed improving, not needing a game to hold them by the hand and read off to them like some owners manual.
People cannot even handle feedback from a player(s) as to how good/bad they are performing, yet they want a game to do it? Pffft!
I like many, will help instruct a player(s) who actually want it, so that they might actually use it to improve, but for the rest who remain stubborn.
Well, enjoy that 2hr. wait, or begin changing toons often!
I have spent the past couple of days reading this thread and I simply cannot understand anyone's point of view. In the years I have played this game, I have never recieved a AFK penalty, ever. I am not some DPS freak, nor am I inactive moocher, I just play the STF and be done with it.
No one I know has complained about the AFK penalty (Except for one person, but he got banned a while ago for cheating).
I do not support anyone's point of view except my own. You can now label my post as a useless distraction to the discussion!!
Let's look at it this way, if someone can jump into a shuttle with nothing but a single beam array, and no fancy traits/lock box goodies, uber consoles, etc.
And, out dps many tier 2-6 starship player(s), than those flying the starships need get off their butts and either.
1: Attack something often
2: Stop dilly dallying around
3: Stop sleeping at the controls
4: Stop surfing the internet/watching vdeos/etc. while in a mission
5: Stop leeching expecting others to carry them to an end reward for free
6: Maybe learn something on their own and/or from others
needless penalty just to protect ego's of a few in an antiquated genre, by using antiquated mechanisms, that in practice, in the games environment, exhibit constant systemic failure.
this problem only exists because this silly rpg refuses to be an mmo by implementing (now standard, tried tested and proven,) mp viable reward systems, like a ****ing scoreboard to base rewards on.
rather than this premade table-top premade party with a DM in the room handing out loot derived system.
and the forums response;
"waawaaawaa its your own fault for not being here long enough to know the build meta the game does nothing to clue you on to, and your own fault for not buying the the quasi win-button ship traits that let others hit you with this penalty desfunction"
before ANYTHING else, you need to prove that that punishment is wrong. you have yet to do so. All you've provided is your statement that you where participating and being useful, yet you got an AFK ban. I'm sorry(not sorry) but you have no credibility. No one here has to take you at your word. provide proof or go away.
its really simple, is the afk penalty system(not to say the penalty itself) completly avoidable? yes
1: is the perpose of the penalty to punish players for not knowing the content? no
2: is the afk system punishing players for not knowing the content? yes
3: is the afk system punishing players who know the content, but still cant do the dps of other players? yes.
for a system intended to prevent leeching/botting, that is a systemic failure. a very clear definition of "wrong".
put in a scoreboard akin to any competant MP game to decide rewards, and the afk system becomes irrelevant
2 & 3 are completely avoidable, asking a player(s) to actually make some form of a dps contribution [1-2%], is not asking much at all.
Those who cannot deliver such a low amount, might as well not even be there, and considered afk for all it's worth!
Asking someone to make a contribution isn't bad, and sounds fair in principle, but asking a new toon to contribute 1 or 2 % of a 160k dpser IS asking to much. Actually, asking a noob to do anything but learn the game as they play, which y'know requires actual PLAY, is to much. Note we are both expressing an opinion, so this won't change either of us.
I think you would have to agree that those who cannot deliver still have the same right as customers, to the same content that you do, and ARE there, and are not AFK, so should not be considered AFK, since that is both untrue, and equates to institutionalized abuse of noobs, or anyone else who has a disadvantage, either from lack of experience, or otherwise. I think I have more truth backing me on this point than you do, but since you may believe that other users don't have the same right to access and courtesy, I'm not sure you will accept that truth. I think you will see my point though.
PWE and Cryptic didn't make this content just for one kind of player, but for all comers. They even made it free to play.
Saying that a player may as well be treated as if they were AFK even if they were not, makes you look pretty unethical. Personally, I wonder if you mean to come off that way? We are disagreeing, but I find your comments fairly easy to read simply because they may be direct, but they are not overly rude. Not saying I'm your buddy all of a sudden, but consider what your implying here.
Do you really mean that someone should be punished for playing content that they are both eligible for, and have a right as customers to access? Are you really saying that they should be treated as if they did something wrong, when all they did was show up, as allowed, and try to have fun? Do you really mean that they should be treated as AFK, when they are only playing at their level?
I would be surprised if on reflection, you really meant to support such a position.
If you do support that position, then I guess we will keep going round and round.
I have spent the past couple of days reading this thread and I simply cannot understand anyone's point of view. In the years I have played this game, I have never recieved a AFK penalty, ever. I am not some DPS freak, nor am I inactive moocher, I just play the STF and be done with it.
No one I know has complained about the AFK penalty (Except for one person, but he got banned a while ago for cheating).
I do not support anyone's point of view except my own. You can now label my post as a useless distraction to the discussion!!
It's ok. As far as I'm concerned it's perfectly reasonable to be boggled by the different positions expressed here. I think most folks will fall into your description. I think the argument boils down to how you believe the AFK penalty should be assigned, and whether the current system is actually serving the community in the most properly balanced way.
I would describe my position as being for the the little guy, or the unlucky but average player. I don't think it is proper for me to presume to say how the other sides would describe themselves. Since you have been following, you probably have all this already.
Things change. You may get a penalty. If so, you may remember this thread.
See, if you read the above, this is a killjoy mechanic at least sometimes. I don't like that anyone has a few hours of fun trashed by a few lines of code. The OP is discouraged even going into this topic. I can understand why. There is a subculture in STO that is clearly hostile to any examination of the mechanic as it currently is. These remind me of the' Knights who say Ni'. If you don't understand, go research it.
Anyway, I am going to place a suggestion (after reading many thoughtful responses here earlier, thanks all) that we try to get a leveling AFK standard (like the leveling that exists for enemies) instead of a more random one based on % of total irrespective of level, which can vary wildly.
Please chime in, if you have a reason why it sounds good, or a reason why it doesn't. I would prefer actual attempts to help the original poster, as opposed to rude comments about how lame, stupid, etc, they are. The world has enough of that.
Thanks.
Qapla.
The problem with you and the OP is ATTITUDE.
How many times have you all asked in the Academy and the Build section for help? 0 -ZERO
How many times have you all complained in General Discussion and Complained about AFK PENALTY? MANY
Tells you what kind of attitude you guys have, spend more time complaining less time actually avoiding AFK, becoming productive.
A lot of players are willing to help. If you dont like to interact with players, read builds, guides and videos. The issue is players like yourself or the OP dont spend time actually improving one self. Would rather spend time whining and complaining, posting at General Discussions. You would also be rather spoonfed with everything from success to information/data. Because that what AFK penalty removal for you is about, not actually having to improve but getting the same rewards who actually improved.
Your so presumptuous. If your false assumptions were water we would all drown. You don't know me, or the OP. All you really know for sure is that I want the AFK penalty looked at, like the OP. You know that I think it is wrongly applied, and the process needs fixed. I have told you these things. The rest comes out of your warped imagination. Warp 10!
I have been in plenty of Queues. I know I can do them, because I have done them. I know how to look things up, and do so quite often. I don't need to ask for help in the Academy, or the Build section, but if I did, I would know where they are without your arrogant chest pounding. I know a lot of people are wiling to help. I am willing to help. It's why I'm here now.
I do have friends who are better at some things than I am, and I ask them for tips if I am not doing as well as I would like to in PVE or PVP. I test builds in PVP matches with friends. I am productive in teams, and I am productive in the general game. I don't care if you believe me, since I don't count you as an honest participant here anymore.
I do have attitude though! I think so little of you in general that it takes a lot for me to even dignify your trash talk with a response. I have so little regard for your peevish, elitist ranting that I wouldn't join your gang if you were handing out free vintage '68 Corvettes. I don't want to be in your cult, or wear your gang colors, or whatever. If anything you have said turns out to be accidentally helpful, or useful, I will still take note, but mostly, I try to ignore you, because you are rude. To rude to be bothered with. Soon I may just start posting around you since posting to you is like trying to save a drowning cat. You get clawed up, and the cat isn't grateful.
Well, it's definitely a very real thing. DPSers using cannons or torpedoes frequently notice how running with beam jockeys can negatively affect their DPS outputs due to a significant increase in targets becoming corpses prior to their shots hitting them.
How much worse do you think it could be for people who AREN'T fast or hard-hitting to begin with? 200K Scimitars don't even bother to launch their pets because the fight will be over before those pets can fire. What do you think would happen if those pets were players?
Quite the opposite. Torps nuke faster. Besides nuking faster has nothing to do with weapons platforms but piloting.
Also, 200k in a pug is an impossibility. In order for players to achieve 200k dps, they need to at least have some sort of team debuffing and buffing with some sort of premade setup. PuGs, are unreliable doing team buffs and debuffs nor they are setup to be premades. Even in premades, 200k is very difficult and mostly done on a 3/2 split. Of course no one does an organized 3/2 split in a PuG. Nor does a PuG teamwork equal to 200k DPSers teamwork.
If a player is having issues with DPS or HPS, learn. If dont want to learn and improve, problem aint the game mechanics but player. All of us started as lacking of fundamentals, the main difference would be the attitude when faced with a problem. So it all comes down to the each player's attitude.
You don't see it, but ruinthefun does. Your acting as if everyone should already be at the end of the learning cycle, but they aren't. Even if they are in the middle they may run into things they are still learning about. People at the beginning of the learning cycle have not had time to figure out how they will respond, so your assumption that they don't want to improve, when they have not really even started figuring out the game, is just more unwarranted trash talk, and again, proves what a waste of time reasoning with you actually is.
is the afk system punishing players for not knowing the content? yes
is the afk system punishing players who know the content, but still cant do the dps of other players? yes.
If one knows the content, but one didnt act to contribute significantly to the team the problem would that players inaction to improve, inaction too apply that improvement.
It all comes down to the player. They know the content yet refuse to improve oneself.
Again with the assumptions. Knowing content does not equal success when the player lacks a powerful dps build due to the limitations of the toon currently in play. Especially when that toon is supposed to be able to go into level FIVE+ queues because the Devs set it up that way. The Devs! Knowing content shouldn't mean you have to avoid it, when it is obviously meant to be played by all comers at the gate level or above.
Also, your assuming the player isn't improving, or working to improve their toon. That is what your saying. That is also an irrational argument! Everyone wants to improve if they are bothering to play at all. I guess it is possible some people don't work on their skills. As far as I can tell you haven't worked on improving your people skills at all. Do you lack the necessary attitude to improve?
Anyway, have a nice day. I won't begrudge you that.
I just did another one of those fleet alert missions where I was nonstop firing at enemies and having a good time, only to receive a 2 hour penalty for being AFK. I know the Devs are never going to address this, but just because one person goes in with an overpowered ship that devastates everything on the screen shouldn't result in every other player being penalized for not doing enough damage.
Yeah, I know no one cares. And I know the Devs don't care. But man, that is so freaking annoying when you're just trying to have fun in the game. I love doing fleet alerts. They're probably the most fun I get out of the game. So 2 hours of my night not being able to do one basically means having to wait until the next day due to the few hours I have to play this game at night.
Yeah, I know. Nobody cares.
See, if you read the above, this is a killjoy mechanic at least sometimes. I don't like that anyone has a few hours of fun trashed by a few lines of code. The OP is discouraged even going into this topic. I can understand why. There is a subculture in STO that is clearly hostile to any examination of the mechanic as it currently is. These remind me of the' Knights who say Ni'. If you don't understand, go research it.
Anyway, I am going to place a suggestion (after reading many thoughtful responses here earlier, thanks all) that we try to get a leveling AFK standard (like the leveling that exists for enemies) instead of a more random one based on % of total irrespective of level, which can vary wildly.
Please chime in, if you have a reason why it sounds good, or a reason why it doesn't. I would prefer actual attempts to help the original poster, as opposed to rude comments about how lame, stupid, etc, they are. The world has enough of that.
Thanks.
Qapla.
Again!
In the hopes more people will want to be constructive here, and try to find an agreeable way to affect this.
Let's look at it this way, if someone can jump into a shuttle with nothing but a single beam array, and no fancy traits/lock box goodies, uber consoles, etc.
And, out dps many tier 2-6 starship player(s), than those flying the starships need get off their butts and either.
1: Attack something often
2: Stop dilly dallying around
3: Stop sleeping at the controls
4: Stop surfing the internet/watching vdeos/etc. while in a mission
5: Stop leeching expecting others to carry to an end reward for free
6: Maybe learn something on their own and/or from others
Ok, this is an example of why I think your probably ok, even if we disagree.
I like shuttles! Plain or sweetened! It is fun to spar and see the other player actually using the 'I'm worried' tactics. I'm still learning how to best use them, but it has been fun so far.
The other day I joined a Borg alert. I came in with another player and we headed for the spheres. I am not a min/max'er and can probably not solo this mission. The spheres went down quickly. Then it turned out one or two other players were already killing cubes. I joined one soloing a tac cube and could get one shot in. As a matter of fact the cube disappeared before its core blew, because somebody somewhere made the fourth kill and the unimatrix ship appeared. I could make one run and release all my cooldowns, when I turned for another attack the ship went boom and the mission was over. I did get the dailly reward and don't know if I got any kind of penalty. It is not, hey, that was fun. let's do it again. Fact is, I probably do not deliver much damage in these scenario's. I have run these alerts more and I remember failing them, because the team did not concentrate on the regenerators, which made firing at the unimatrix pointless.
I have fun builds as I call them, and I do not analyze them on a deeper level, but I am quite certain that five of my builds can handle any content on normal level. Upgraded to mk XIV anything on advanced level too. That is what I am using mostly, mk XI, mk XII, blues and greens, mission reward stuff, what the game throws at me. At CCA event, I did get some third and second places. So I am not worried about my build concept.
The problem is with the game itself. I can understand that the OP has a problem. If your build is offscale and, or your performance lacks a little, it can turn out your are not needed in group content. It is as if the other players play another game. On top of it you can get a penalty for it.
The high DPS'rs did a good thing. They made a thorough analyze of the game mechanics and showed it to the community. Is it exploiting? Absolutely not. Does it look like exploiting? Very much, hence rambling game design.
The other day I joined a Borg alert. I came in with another player and we headed for the spheres. I am not a min/max'er and can probably not solo this mission. The spheres went down quickly. Then it turned out one or two other players were already killing cubes. I joined one soloing a tac cube and could get one shot in. As a matter of fact the cube disappeared before its core blew, because somebody somewhere made the fourth kill and the unimatrix ship appeared. I could make one run and release all my cooldowns, when I turned for another attack the ship went boom and the mission was over. I did get the dailly reward and don't know if I got any kind of penalty. It is not, hey, that was fun. let's do it again. Fact is, I probably do not deliver much damage in these scenario's. I have run these alerts more and I remember failing them, because the team did not concentrate on the regenerators, which made firing at the unimatrix pointless.
I have fun builds as I call them, and I do not analyze them on a deeper level, but I am quite certain that five of my builds can handle any content on normal level. Upgraded to mk XIV anything on advanced level too. That is what I am using mostly, mk XI, mk XII, blues and greens, mission reward stuff, what the game throws at me. At CCA event, I did get some third and second places. So I am not worried about my build concept.
The problem is with the game itself. I can understand that the OP has a problem. If your build is offscale and, or your performance lacks a little, it can turn out your are not needed in group content. It is as if the other players play another game. On top of it you can get a penalty for it.
The high DPS'rs did a good thing. They made a thorough analyze of the game mechanics and showed it to the community. Is it exploiting? Absolutely not. Does it look like exploiting? Very much, hence rambling game design.
Thanks for joining. I remember the Borg regenerators getting mostly ignored on the dailies by to many players. There were times not to long ago when you got to a map, and nobody wanted to attack the Borg first, even after you started to see Scimitars and stuff. Back then I usually had an Escort, a BoP, or a K'tinga and I was using mines a lot. I could get stuff started, and stay in the fight till the end if everyone would just remember to take out the rassa-frassan regenerators
Now lately it's the "Disintegrating Borg Cubes Show". Unimatrix lasts about as long as a short TV commercial. The reward comes more quickly, but it seems a little bit less epic. Still fun while it lasts.
Funny about what gets called an exploit. I'd probably consider a build that was taking advantage of the known Kemocite issue to be an exploit, but in fact, I don't care that people use it the way that it works. Let them have fun while it lasts
Your builds sound like mine, except that I don't have much Mk XIV on any one toon, and I pretty much stick to normal queues.
So how do you feel about switching to an AFK penalty adjusted for level, so noobs have more protection from being falsely identified as AFK? Or do you have another suggestion?
before ANYTHING else, you need to prove that that punishment is wrong. you have yet to do so. All you've provided is your statement that you where participating and being useful, yet you got an AFK ban. I'm sorry(not sorry) but you have no credibility. No one here has to take you at your word. provide proof or go away.
its really simple, is the afk penalty system(not to say the penalty itself) completly avoidable? yes
is the perpose of the penalty to punish players for not knowing the content? no
is the afk system punishing players for not knowing the content? yes
is the afk system punishing players who know the content, but still cant do the dps of other players? yes.
Does the AFK system punish players who know what they're doing and can do the DPS of other players but want to leech on purpose? No!
That alone is reason enough to ditch the system entirely and start over from scratch. A damage threshold couldn't possibly be set high enough to actually require a decently capable player to participate even half the time. If an AFK penalty system is necessary, it must measure active time to be effective.
before ANYTHING else, you need to prove that that punishment is wrong. you have yet to do so. All you've provided is your statement that you where participating and being useful, yet you got an AFK ban. I'm sorry(not sorry) but you have no credibility. No one here has to take you at your word. provide proof or go away.
its really simple, is the afk penalty system(not to say the penalty itself) completly avoidable? yes
is the perpose of the penalty to punish players for not knowing the content? no
is the afk system punishing players for not knowing the content? yes
is the afk system punishing players who know the content, but still cant do the dps of other players? yes.
Does the AFK system punish players who know what they're doing and can do the DPS of other players but want to leech on purpose? No!
That alone is reason enough to ditch the system entirely and start over from scratch. A damage threshold couldn't possibly be set high enough to actually require a decently capable player to participate even half the time. If an AFK penalty system is necessary, it must measure active time to be effective.
I've said before, there needs to be a vote-to-kick system in place. When the system recognises someone who is AFK, say after 30-60 seconds of null activity (it should also recognise no change in input in case someone puts a little speed on and autofires without directional change), a vote system appears next to their name so people can kick a leech out. It's becoming increasingly common to find someone like this especially where there is a 'safe-zone' where a player can't be attacked, so perhaps, especially in Adv versions, enemy should spawn near a spawn site to start giving injuries out.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
before ANYTHING else, you need to prove that that punishment is wrong. you have yet to do so. All you've provided is your statement that you where participating and being useful, yet you got an AFK ban. I'm sorry(not sorry) but you have no credibility. No one here has to take you at your word. provide proof or go away.
its really simple, is the afk penalty system(not to say the penalty itself) completly avoidable? yes
is the perpose of the penalty to punish players for not knowing the content? no
is the afk system punishing players for not knowing the content? yes
is the afk system punishing players who know the content, but still cant do the dps of other players? yes.
Does the AFK system punish players who know what they're doing and can do the DPS of other players but want to leech on purpose? No!
That alone is reason enough to ditch the system entirely and start over from scratch. A damage threshold couldn't possibly be set high enough to actually require a decently capable player to participate even half the time. If an AFK penalty system is necessary, it must measure active time to be effective.
I've said before, there needs to be a vote-to-kick system in place. When the system recognises someone who is AFK, say after 30-60 seconds of null activity (it should also recognise no change in input in case someone puts a little speed on and autofires without directional change), a vote system appears next to their name so people can kick a leech out. It's becoming increasingly common to find someone like this especially where there is a 'safe-zone' where a player can't be attacked, so perhaps, especially in Adv versions, enemy should spawn near a spawn site to start giving injuries out.
So how about a combination of those two suggestions? After 60 seconds of combat with no movement/firing/healing, vote to kick for being inactive?
Is that going to work with load screen times, kemocite and other lag. What do we need to compensate for with this idea?
Also, is a vote a distraction in a high paced game? Maybe the total participation time % is better? maybe instead of a vote, just nerf , or eliminate the reward. Leave any expertise earned in combat though. ?
A scoreboard, wouldn't help at all, because many who cannot even achieve preventing the afk penalty in the firstplace, would recieve absolutely 0 rewards each and every time!
Can people get around the current system in place, and still leech? Sure, but in the short period of time they do become active, they contribute more than many who remain active the whole time and get the penalty!
The system isn't perfect, but it does an excellent job of enforcing participation, less people get around it [which is possible], and yes it can punish some unfortunates, but a good portion of those unfortunates are either leechers/moochers, or don't bother to actually be of great aid really that they are actually needed in mission by the others!
this problem only exists because this silly rpg refuses to be an mmo by implementing (now standard, tried tested and proven,) mp viable reward systems, like a ****ing scoreboard to base rewards on/quote]
Isn't that the way Starbase 24 rewards were given out?
Does the AFK system punish players who know what they're doing and can do the DPS of other players but want to leech on purpose? No!
That alone is reason enough to ditch the system entirely and start over from scratch. A damage threshold couldn't possibly be set high enough to actually require a decently capable player to participate even half the time. If an AFK penalty system is necessary, it must measure active time to be effective.
or, instead of bulls****ing, just put a f***ing scoreboard in to decide rewards. since then, everyone gets what they earn.
and we dont get players being hit with systemic failures deliberately implemented by incompetents, or the abuse that comes from vote to kick.
Like the leader boards in Fleet show the highest contributors. I like it. It seems so simple. I thought about voting and what you say about possible abuse occurred to me as well. You seem to have a good way to dodge that.
Some other thoughts, and please stay with me ...
My Father in Law asks me what I've been doing. he has no clue at all about MMOs or Star Trek, but he does know people.
He said, basically, 'why can't you just decide not to play with certain people?' I told him the game puts them together somewhat randomly.
He asked why if you didn't like someones way of playing, why you couldn't just choose not to play with them? Let them go play in their way, and leave you to play your way. I explained it was like going into a dark room, and having to play with whoever was in the room when the lights came on.
He asked why if you have all this control over fleets, and team selections, isn't it kind of dumb the game won't let you decide not to play with people you know you don't want to play with?
I ended up thinking about the ignore option for chat, etc. I can't remember ever running into an example of it, but can people you have on 'ignore' end up in a queue with you? If not, you could just opt to ignore them yourself, and never see them in your team again. If they can (which is what I expect to be true) then you are still having to deal with someone you have chosen to ignore, but by chance.
Going further, if someone really didn't want to queue with a 'certain someone else' ever again, is it a good idea to allow them to tag the player they wish to avoid? Consider the following examples.
If for example, if player 'A' notices player 'B' isn't doing enough to satisfy the expectations of player 'A', then player 'A' can tag player 'B' so as to be avoided in future queues. The trade off is that player 'A' doesn't get to keep player 'B' from queuing at all. All it means is that whichever of the two of them joined a queue first, would therefore be 'first in line' and would get to play first. The other would be first for the next instance of the queued event to come up. They would not have to mix, and simple initiative would determine which got to play first.
Another example of how this might work; Suppose I don't tag people because I am ok with noobs, or whatever. That means I have no obstacles to playing, unless someone tags me, in which case I either go first, or I wait for it to restart. If I tag everyone and their dog, I may be limited in how often I queue, because I tagged nearly everyone, but I never have to go among the unwashed masses again. What if I was careful when to tag, and when not to?
Now for a variant; Suppose like your team settings, you had settings for who you would queue with. Selections to screen for might include level, ship tier, character career, a minimum score in some scoring mechanism (see above), years of activity. Or if they were on your ignore list for some reason, I suppose. Whatever the reason, you wouldn't queue with them.
It would serve as a sort of an anti-noob-casual-player-rainbow-ship-hippy filter. Then if any of those types were in the existing queue when you got there, you would start a queue that only allowed 'your kind of people' into it. When it was full you could play. The other queue with 'those kinds of people' could play when they were full. Whoever had a full queue first, would get to start first. The next queue to fill up would go next.
In this variant we are not tagging people, as much as we are setting up a fence to surround ourselves with, to keep out the riffraff. Nobody gets singled out and tagged, but the dirty people have to stand in their own queue, over there. Which ever line moves faster is uncertain.
So does anyone like the scoreboard idea? Or like the tag/filter idea? Either? Both?
Comments
Honestly, I have to say, you seem to be very even handed about this. You support my argument, but defend the basic penalty, asking only that it be modified. I could support your position.
It isn't an AFK penalty, and fair can be subjective, but something needs to be in place. All true. All around, I'd say if things were done as you suggest, for just the few 5-60 missions, I'd be back to playing. I'd be able to steer my nuggets to a good place to get started.
At this point I am only here for the sake of the new people. I am not enjoying this effort at all.
Anyway, I salute you.
Qapla
True, but just like what some peeps refer to as a seat of the pants dyno in regards to automotive performance, one can evaluate their own seat of the pants combat effectiveness.
If they so desire!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
For those who do not have an issue, it is because there isn't that big of an issue to warrant a removal!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Nothing wrong with the first sentence in my opinion. Everyone should strive for improvement. People need to be able to adjust and move on.
I like your other post about parsing vs seat of the pants. I usually just swap to the combat side of my chat window to get an idea how I just did compared to others. It has been enough for me for two years. I may try parsing, if only to teach the interested.
I want to clarify that I am not for removal of the measures to stop leeches. I am for adjustment of the means used to screen for leeches so that it also allows for the variety of honest players who may not be effective. That is it. I just want a little cover for low level players entering an arena where they mix with high level ones. Modification, not a total removal.
I like what coldnapalm said;
I appreciate the suggestions and observations made by you, coldnapalm, annemarie30, saross, ruinthefun, and e30ernest, in the last few posts.
So 'not' removing the system why not scale it? I am guessing, but if you can scale the enemies up to match the player level, you should be able to scale for minimum performance. Why not? It seems like the code must be there somewhere.
It would satisfy any concerns about noob players, or new characters. It would leave your and my high level toons free from carrying leeches (noobs/nuggets I will happily put up with because they are honest players, no matter the skill) It would mean that level 5-60 Fleet Alerts were actually accepting of level 5 as well as level 60 in more than just the description.
It would allow this topic to fade and die. Which I really wish it would. I'm here to play the game, and help others play it, not to be doing this. I feel this pain in the behind battle is part of my job as a Fleet Leader, so I have to stick this out.
I wish a Dev would notice this whole thing, and see some of the reasonable suggestions, and mitigate the negative effects on low level players of the 5-60 level queues. I'd be done. I'm fine with a targeted penalty system, if it actually only hits it's intended target.
You are probably sick of me, sorry about that (honest truth). You probably didn't even want to read this. I'm still going to ask if you would be willing to look at using a sliding scale like is used for enemies, to guide future AFK mechanics?
Level AFK penalties like you level enemies. How many support this concept?
Qapla.
See, if you read the above, this is a killjoy mechanic at least sometimes. I don't like that anyone has a few hours of fun trashed by a few lines of code. The OP is discouraged even going into this topic. I can understand why. There is a subculture in STO that is clearly hostile to any examination of the mechanic as it currently is. These remind me of the' Knights who say Ni'. If you don't understand, go research it.
Anyway, I am going to place a suggestion (after reading many thoughtful responses here earlier, thanks all) that we try to get a leveling AFK standard (like the leveling that exists for enemies) instead of a more random one based on % of total irrespective of level, which can vary wildly.
Please chime in, if you have a reason why it sounds good, or a reason why it doesn't. I would prefer actual attempts to help the original poster, as opposed to rude comments about how lame, stupid, etc, they are. The world has enough of that.
Thanks.
Qapla.
The problem with you and the OP is ATTITUDE.
How many times have you all asked in the Academy and the Build section for help? 0 -ZERO
How many times have you all complained in General Discussion and Complained about AFK PENALTY? MANY
Tells you what kind of attitude you guys have, spend more time complaining less time actually avoiding AFK, becoming productive.
A lot of players are willing to help. If you dont like to interact with players, read builds, guides and videos. The issue is players like yourself or the OP dont spend time actually improving one self. Would rather spend time whining and complaining, posting at General Discussions. You would also be rather spoonfed with everything from success to information/data. Because that what AFK penalty removal for you is about, not actually having to improve but getting the same rewards who actually improved.
Quite the opposite. Torps nuke faster. Besides nuking faster has nothing to do with weapons platforms but piloting.
Also, 200k in a pug is an impossibility. In order for players to achieve 200k dps, they need to at least have some sort of team debuffing and buffing with some sort of premade setup. PuGs, are unreliable doing team buffs and debuffs nor they are setup to be premades. Even in premades, 200k is very difficult and mostly done on a 3/2 split. Of course no one does an organized 3/2 split in a PuG. Nor does a PuG teamwork equal to 200k DPSers teamwork.
If a player is having issues with DPS or HPS, learn. If dont want to learn and improve, problem aint the game mechanics but player. All of us started as lacking of fundamentals, the main difference would be the attitude when faced with a problem. So it all comes down to the each player's attitude.
If one knows the content, but one didnt act to contribute significantly to the team the problem would that players inaction to improve, inaction too apply that improvement.
It all comes down to the player. They know the content yet refuse to improve oneself.
2 & 3 are completely avoidable, asking a player(s) to actually make some form of a dps contribution [1-2%], is not asking much at all.
Those who cannot deliver such a low amount, might as well not even be there, and considered afk for all it's worth!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Well, guess they need learn what improvement actually is first, than maybe they can determine for themselves if they are indeed improving, not needing a game to hold them by the hand and read off to them like some owners manual.
People cannot even handle feedback from a player(s) as to how good/bad they are performing, yet they want a game to do it? Pffft!
I like many, will help instruct a player(s) who actually want it, so that they might actually use it to improve, but for the rest who remain stubborn.
Well, enjoy that 2hr. wait, or begin changing toons often!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
No one I know has complained about the AFK penalty (Except for one person, but he got banned a while ago for cheating).
I do not support anyone's point of view except my own. You can now label my post as a useless distraction to the discussion!!
And, out dps many tier 2-6 starship player(s), than those flying the starships need get off their butts and either.
1: Attack something often
2: Stop dilly dallying around
3: Stop sleeping at the controls
4: Stop surfing the internet/watching vdeos/etc. while in a mission
5: Stop leeching expecting others to carry them to an end reward for free
6: Maybe learn something on their own and/or from others
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Asking someone to make a contribution isn't bad, and sounds fair in principle, but asking a new toon to contribute 1 or 2 % of a 160k dpser IS asking to much. Actually, asking a noob to do anything but learn the game as they play, which y'know requires actual PLAY, is to much. Note we are both expressing an opinion, so this won't change either of us.
I think you would have to agree that those who cannot deliver still have the same right as customers, to the same content that you do, and ARE there, and are not AFK, so should not be considered AFK, since that is both untrue, and equates to institutionalized abuse of noobs, or anyone else who has a disadvantage, either from lack of experience, or otherwise. I think I have more truth backing me on this point than you do, but since you may believe that other users don't have the same right to access and courtesy, I'm not sure you will accept that truth. I think you will see my point though.
PWE and Cryptic didn't make this content just for one kind of player, but for all comers. They even made it free to play.
Saying that a player may as well be treated as if they were AFK even if they were not, makes you look pretty unethical. Personally, I wonder if you mean to come off that way? We are disagreeing, but I find your comments fairly easy to read simply because they may be direct, but they are not overly rude. Not saying I'm your buddy all of a sudden, but consider what your implying here.
Do you really mean that someone should be punished for playing content that they are both eligible for, and have a right as customers to access? Are you really saying that they should be treated as if they did something wrong, when all they did was show up, as allowed, and try to have fun? Do you really mean that they should be treated as AFK, when they are only playing at their level?
I would be surprised if on reflection, you really meant to support such a position.
If you do support that position, then I guess we will keep going round and round.
Qapla
It's ok. As far as I'm concerned it's perfectly reasonable to be boggled by the different positions expressed here. I think most folks will fall into your description. I think the argument boils down to how you believe the AFK penalty should be assigned, and whether the current system is actually serving the community in the most properly balanced way.
I would describe my position as being for the the little guy, or the unlucky but average player. I don't think it is proper for me to presume to say how the other sides would describe themselves. Since you have been following, you probably have all this already.
Things change. You may get a penalty. If so, you may remember this thread.
Qapla
Your so presumptuous. If your false assumptions were water we would all drown. You don't know me, or the OP. All you really know for sure is that I want the AFK penalty looked at, like the OP. You know that I think it is wrongly applied, and the process needs fixed. I have told you these things. The rest comes out of your warped imagination. Warp 10!
I have been in plenty of Queues. I know I can do them, because I have done them. I know how to look things up, and do so quite often. I don't need to ask for help in the Academy, or the Build section, but if I did, I would know where they are without your arrogant chest pounding. I know a lot of people are wiling to help. I am willing to help. It's why I'm here now.
I do have friends who are better at some things than I am, and I ask them for tips if I am not doing as well as I would like to in PVE or PVP. I test builds in PVP matches with friends. I am productive in teams, and I am productive in the general game. I don't care if you believe me, since I don't count you as an honest participant here anymore.
I do have attitude though! I think so little of you in general that it takes a lot for me to even dignify your trash talk with a response. I have so little regard for your peevish, elitist ranting that I wouldn't join your gang if you were handing out free vintage '68 Corvettes. I don't want to be in your cult, or wear your gang colors, or whatever. If anything you have said turns out to be accidentally helpful, or useful, I will still take note, but mostly, I try to ignore you, because you are rude. To rude to be bothered with. Soon I may just start posting around you since posting to you is like trying to save a drowning cat. You get clawed up, and the cat isn't grateful.
You don't see it, but ruinthefun does. Your acting as if everyone should already be at the end of the learning cycle, but they aren't. Even if they are in the middle they may run into things they are still learning about. People at the beginning of the learning cycle have not had time to figure out how they will respond, so your assumption that they don't want to improve, when they have not really even started figuring out the game, is just more unwarranted trash talk, and again, proves what a waste of time reasoning with you actually is.
Again with the assumptions. Knowing content does not equal success when the player lacks a powerful dps build due to the limitations of the toon currently in play. Especially when that toon is supposed to be able to go into level FIVE+ queues because the Devs set it up that way. The Devs! Knowing content shouldn't mean you have to avoid it, when it is obviously meant to be played by all comers at the gate level or above.
Also, your assuming the player isn't improving, or working to improve their toon. That is what your saying. That is also an irrational argument! Everyone wants to improve if they are bothering to play at all. I guess it is possible some people don't work on their skills. As far as I can tell you haven't worked on improving your people skills at all. Do you lack the necessary attitude to improve?
Anyway, have a nice day. I won't begrudge you that.
Qapla
Again!
In the hopes more people will want to be constructive here, and try to find an agreeable way to affect this.
Qapla!
Ok, this is an example of why I think your probably ok, even if we disagree.
I like shuttles! Plain or sweetened! It is fun to spar and see the other player actually using the 'I'm worried' tactics. I'm still learning how to best use them, but it has been fun so far.
Ah well, back to arguing.
Qapla
I have fun builds as I call them, and I do not analyze them on a deeper level, but I am quite certain that five of my builds can handle any content on normal level. Upgraded to mk XIV anything on advanced level too. That is what I am using mostly, mk XI, mk XII, blues and greens, mission reward stuff, what the game throws at me. At CCA event, I did get some third and second places. So I am not worried about my build concept.
The problem is with the game itself. I can understand that the OP has a problem. If your build is offscale and, or your performance lacks a little, it can turn out your are not needed in group content. It is as if the other players play another game. On top of it you can get a penalty for it.
The high DPS'rs did a good thing. They made a thorough analyze of the game mechanics and showed it to the community. Is it exploiting? Absolutely not. Does it look like exploiting? Very much, hence rambling game design.
Thanks for joining. I remember the Borg regenerators getting mostly ignored on the dailies by to many players. There were times not to long ago when you got to a map, and nobody wanted to attack the Borg first, even after you started to see Scimitars and stuff. Back then I usually had an Escort, a BoP, or a K'tinga and I was using mines a lot. I could get stuff started, and stay in the fight till the end if everyone would just remember to take out the rassa-frassan regenerators
Now lately it's the "Disintegrating Borg Cubes Show". Unimatrix lasts about as long as a short TV commercial. The reward comes more quickly, but it seems a little bit less epic. Still fun while it lasts.
Funny about what gets called an exploit. I'd probably consider a build that was taking advantage of the known Kemocite issue to be an exploit, but in fact, I don't care that people use it the way that it works. Let them have fun while it lasts
Your builds sound like mine, except that I don't have much Mk XIV on any one toon, and I pretty much stick to normal queues.
So how do you feel about switching to an AFK penalty adjusted for level, so noobs have more protection from being falsely identified as AFK? Or do you have another suggestion?
Qapla
Does the AFK system punish players who know what they're doing and can do the DPS of other players but want to leech on purpose? No!
That alone is reason enough to ditch the system entirely and start over from scratch. A damage threshold couldn't possibly be set high enough to actually require a decently capable player to participate even half the time. If an AFK penalty system is necessary, it must measure active time to be effective.
I've said before, there needs to be a vote-to-kick system in place. When the system recognises someone who is AFK, say after 30-60 seconds of null activity (it should also recognise no change in input in case someone puts a little speed on and autofires without directional change), a vote system appears next to their name so people can kick a leech out. It's becoming increasingly common to find someone like this especially where there is a 'safe-zone' where a player can't be attacked, so perhaps, especially in Adv versions, enemy should spawn near a spawn site to start giving injuries out.
So how about a combination of those two suggestions? After 60 seconds of combat with no movement/firing/healing, vote to kick for being inactive?
Is that going to work with load screen times, kemocite and other lag. What do we need to compensate for with this idea?
Also, is a vote a distraction in a high paced game? Maybe the total participation time % is better? maybe instead of a vote, just nerf , or eliminate the reward. Leave any expertise earned in combat though.
Thanks for jumping in
Qapla
Can people get around the current system in place, and still leech? Sure, but in the short period of time they do become active, they contribute more than many who remain active the whole time and get the penalty!
The system isn't perfect, but it does an excellent job of enforcing participation, less people get around it [which is possible], and yes it can punish some unfortunates, but a good portion of those unfortunates are either leechers/moochers, or don't bother to actually be of great aid really that they are actually needed in mission by the others!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Like the leader boards in Fleet show the highest contributors. I like it. It seems so simple. I thought about voting and what you say about possible abuse occurred to me as well. You seem to have a good way to dodge that.
Some other thoughts, and please stay with me ...
My Father in Law asks me what I've been doing. he has no clue at all about MMOs or Star Trek, but he does know people.
He said, basically, 'why can't you just decide not to play with certain people?' I told him the game puts them together somewhat randomly.
He asked why if you didn't like someones way of playing, why you couldn't just choose not to play with them? Let them go play in their way, and leave you to play your way. I explained it was like going into a dark room, and having to play with whoever was in the room when the lights came on.
He asked why if you have all this control over fleets, and team selections, isn't it kind of dumb the game won't let you decide not to play with people you know you don't want to play with?
I ended up thinking about the ignore option for chat, etc. I can't remember ever running into an example of it, but can people you have on 'ignore' end up in a queue with you? If not, you could just opt to ignore them yourself, and never see them in your team again. If they can (which is what I expect to be true) then you are still having to deal with someone you have chosen to ignore, but by chance.
Going further, if someone really didn't want to queue with a 'certain someone else' ever again, is it a good idea to allow them to tag the player they wish to avoid? Consider the following examples.
If for example, if player 'A' notices player 'B' isn't doing enough to satisfy the expectations of player 'A', then player 'A' can tag player 'B' so as to be avoided in future queues. The trade off is that player 'A' doesn't get to keep player 'B' from queuing at all. All it means is that whichever of the two of them joined a queue first, would therefore be 'first in line' and would get to play first. The other would be first for the next instance of the queued event to come up. They would not have to mix, and simple initiative would determine which got to play first.
Another example of how this might work; Suppose I don't tag people because I am ok with noobs, or whatever. That means I have no obstacles to playing, unless someone tags me, in which case I either go first, or I wait for it to restart. If I tag everyone and their dog, I may be limited in how often I queue, because I tagged nearly everyone, but I never have to go among the unwashed masses again. What if I was careful when to tag, and when not to?
Now for a variant; Suppose like your team settings, you had settings for who you would queue with. Selections to screen for might include level, ship tier, character career, a minimum score in some scoring mechanism (see above), years of activity. Or if they were on your ignore list for some reason, I suppose. Whatever the reason, you wouldn't queue with them.
It would serve as a sort of an anti-noob-casual-player-rainbow-ship-hippy filter. Then if any of those types were in the existing queue when you got there, you would start a queue that only allowed 'your kind of people' into it. When it was full you could play. The other queue with 'those kinds of people' could play when they were full. Whoever had a full queue first, would get to start first. The next queue to fill up would go next.
In this variant we are not tagging people, as much as we are setting up a fence to surround ourselves with, to keep out the riffraff. Nobody gets singled out and tagged, but the dirty people have to stand in their own queue, over there. Which ever line moves faster is uncertain.
So does anyone like the scoreboard idea? Or like the tag/filter idea? Either? Both?
Qapla