No. The episode was far too hamfisted and railroady to allow such things as player choice.
The whole episode seemed rather contrived and rushed in many areas- Klingon captain going from 'kill em all!' to spouting Starfleet Dogma, The Iconians basically a cut and paste of the federation to hammer home how much we were supposed to sympathize with them, the invading aliens being so blatantly unworthy of Iconian tech and unsympathetic, the introduction of a last minute super important artifact in the last episode of the arc. Recognizing Sela as a Romulan even though they didn't exist yet, yet somehow not recognizing the species of the person stepping between her and them. The readiness with which the Iconians are willing to end the war at the drop of a hat, etc etc.
For what it's worth, I noticed that even if you side with Sela in every conversation and take every confrontational conversation option with the Iconians, the mission still unfolds exactly the same-defend them from invaders, recover the heart, and evacuate them. The other dialogue options might as well not even be there, as they just add another layer of stupidity to the plot as your player saves all the iconians instead of gunning them down as per their stated intent and then incompetently lets them escape as their back is turned. It's really quite humorous.
Recognizing Sela as a Romulan even though they didn't exist yet, yet somehow not recognizing the species of the person stepping between her and them.
How about recognizing Sela as Romulan but not the Romulan Fleet Admiral that becomes known as "The Other"
Yeah, I'd be inclined to let that one slide were it not for the fact Cryptic has the ability to tailor dialogs to particular species, and hasn't bothered to use it since "Surface Tension".
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
This episode made me figure why Elachi seem to preffer Romulans over other species for the Elachi transformation proces, maybe T´ket´s will. Personally I´d have asked T´ket as a favor at the end of the episode to take away Sela, and hand her to Elachi to be transformed, so I can kill her on the next battle.
I thought I could´nt loathe Sela more than I used to, but this episode shown me I was wrong.
This episode made me figure why Elachi seem to preffer Romulans over other species for the Elachi transformation proces, maybe T´ket´s will. Personally I´d have asked T´ket as a favor at the end of the episode to take away Sela, and hand her to Elachi to be transformed, so I can kill her on the next battle.
I thought I could´nt loathe Sela more than I used to, but this episode shown me I was wrong.
So Sela basically does the same thing the Romulan player did to Hakeev, but to the Iconians (for pretty much the same reasons, no less) and she deserves to be tortured to death, her remains desecrated, ressurrected, adn then destroyed again?
Lets not lose sight of who was actually responsible for the loss of Romulus. T'Ket and the other eleven Iconians. Sela gunned down three Iconians. After that, the ball was in T'Ket's court...who escalated from there?
At the end of the day, it's just a lazy plot device to dump the responsibility for the crimes onto an already unsympathetic character in order to gloss over the fact that the Iconians did unspeakable crimes against the galaxy - all so the 'peaceful' resolution to the war isn't even more sudden and jarring than it already is.
This episode made me figure why Elachi seem to preffer Romulans over other species for the Elachi transformation proces, maybe T´ket´s will. Personally I´d have asked T´ket as a favor at the end of the episode to take away Sela, and hand her to Elachi to be transformed, so I can kill her on the next battle.
I thought I could´nt loathe Sela more than I used to, but this episode shown me I was wrong.
So Sela basically does the same thing the Romulan player did to Hakeev, but to the Iconians (for pretty much the same reasons, no less) and she deserves to be tortured to death, her remains desecrated, ressurrected, adn then destroyed again?
Lets not lose sight of who was actually responsible for the loss of Romulus. T'Ket and the other eleven Iconians. Sela gunned down three Iconians. After that, the ball was in T'Ket's court...who escalated from there?
At the end of the day, it's just a lazy plot device to dump the responsibility for the crimes onto an already unsympathetic character in order to gloss over the fact that the Iconians did unspeakable crimes against the galaxy - all so the 'peaceful' resolution to the war isn't even more sudden and jarring than it already is.
You know the old Iconian saying...
"Revenge is a dish best served cold and out of proportion."
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Recognizing Sela as a Romulan even though they didn't exist yet, yet somehow not recognizing the species of the person stepping between her and them.
How about recognizing Sela as Romulan but not the Romulan Fleet Admiral that becomes known as "The Other"
We could assume that Sela, as half-Romulan, looks a bit different: her hair colour, her eyebrows, a different uniform. But then that argument goes into oblivion, because if Iconians had taken such a close look at us to see the difference and assume we're not "Romulan", they'd recognise us earlier as the Other. And, naturally, if the player is a blond Romulan a la Sela look... or wears the Imperial uniform...
We can have up to 6 Romulans (the player, Sela, 4 away team), one is nasty, T'Ket kills them all for one nasty, not caring about the 5 good Rommies who helped her.
It just doesn't make sense. Or T'Ket is nuts. Well... she is, actually...
This episode made me figure why Elachi seem to preffer Romulans over other species for the Elachi transformation proces, maybe T´ket´s will. Personally I´d have asked T´ket as a favor at the end of the episode to take away Sela, and hand her to Elachi to be transformed, so I can kill her on the next battle.
I thought I could´nt loathe Sela more than I used to, but this episode shown me I was wrong.
So Sela basically does the same thing the Romulan player did to Hakeev, but to the Iconians (for pretty much the same reasons, no less) and she deserves to be tortured to death, her remains desecrated, ressurrected, adn then destroyed again?
Lets not lose sight of who was actually responsible for the loss of Romulus. T'Ket and the other eleven Iconians. Sela gunned down three Iconians. After that, the ball was in T'Ket's court...who escalated from there?
At the end of the day, it's just a lazy plot device to dump the responsibility for the crimes onto an already unsympathetic character in order to gloss over the fact that the Iconians did unspeakable crimes against the galaxy - all so the 'peaceful' resolution to the war isn't even more sudden and jarring than it already is.
I agree. This mock outrage at Sela was ridiculous, Crimes aside it was the iconians who pushed the button for hobus, they launched this war, killed billions of others, and suddenly after the entire arc where we've tried again and again to establish dialogue and stop the war, throughout they were clearly shown as a foe intent on our destruction, in almost every mission they view all other 'lower lifeforms' as pests, plus they destroyed all known preservers and their knowledge, we go back in time to do what must be done and end them, (even back then they are full of themselves. they think that they are gods) then everyone loses their spines and the mission turns into let em go and "save their magic snowglobe" cause maybe we can show them the true meaning of friendship.
flash back to the future where they are about destroy whats left of the fleet and suddenly the 'chosen one' *ahem* the other returns with the globe of peace from the phantom menace :P
Now everything is fine, peace shall be had except for T'ket. And even though they are eternally greatful they refuse to rein in T'ket who is still grethor bent on our destruction. Yeah no tribunals. no concessions from them not even a slap on the wrist. "We sure showed them!" (grrr?) But Sela needs 'the works' there's a word for that... Scapegoat. I don't care for Sela that much in game (mostly due to writing) and trust levels aren't the highest, and by no means is she blameless but I trust her word more than the Iconians. In them you have a threat far worse than the Dominion, that can build even more forces at will now. If the incompetent but still scummy Hakeev had to be dealt with than so should they. Anything less is a double standard.
This episode made me figure why Elachi seem to preffer Romulans over other species for the Elachi transformation proces, maybe T´ket´s will. Personally I´d have asked T´ket as a favor at the end of the episode to take away Sela, and hand her to Elachi to be transformed, so I can kill her on the next battle.
I thought I could´nt loathe Sela more than I used to, but this episode shown me I was wrong.
So Sela basically does the same thing the Romulan player did to Hakeev, but to the Iconians (for pretty much the same reasons, no less) and she deserves to be tortured to death, her remains desecrated, ressurrected, adn then destroyed again?
Lets not lose sight of who was actually responsible for the loss of Romulus. T'Ket and the other eleven Iconians. Sela gunned down three Iconians. After that, the ball was in T'Ket's court...who escalated from there?
At the end of the day, it's just a lazy plot device to dump the responsibility for the crimes onto an already unsympathetic character in order to gloss over the fact that the Iconians did unspeakable crimes against the galaxy - all so the 'peaceful' resolution to the war isn't even more sudden and jarring than it already is.
I agree. This mock outrage at Sela was ridiculous, Crimes aside it was the iconians who pushed the button for hobus, they launched this war, killed billions of others, and suddenly after the entire arc where we've tried again and again to establish dialogue and stop the war, throughout they were clearly shown as a foe intent on our destruction, in almost every mission they view all other 'lower lifeforms' as pests, plus they destroyed all known preservers and their knowledge, we go back in time to do what must be done and end them, (even back then they are full of themselves. they think that they are gods) then everyone loses their spines and the mission turns into let em go and "save their magic snowglobe" cause maybe we can show them the true meaning of friendship.
flash back to the future where they are about destroy whats left of the fleet and suddenly the 'chosen one' *ahem* the other returns with the globe of peace from the phantom menace :P
Now everything is fine, peace shall be had except for T'ket. And even though they are eternally greatful they refuse to rein in T'ket who is still grethor bent on our destruction. Yeah no tribunals. no concessions from them not even a slap on the wrist. "We sure showed them!" (grrr?) But Sela needs 'the works' there's a word for that... Scapegoat. I don't care for Sela that much in game (mostly due to writing) and trust levels aren't the highest, and by no means is she blameless but I trust her word more than the Iconians. In them you have a threat far worse than the Dominion, that can build even more forces at will now. If the incompetent but still scummy Hakeev had to be dealt with than so should they. Anything less is a double standard.
I'm no fan of Sela, as a person, and as a rival of one of my characters, and I agree with your assesment.
What if the iconians ARE telepathic? that would explain how T'ket knew. might cause a number of other issues unless T'ket only had time to read basic information from Sela's nasty ugly mind.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Because It's a Vulcan ship, the idea of giving it to Fed Romulans is for reunificationists.
And if Sela is sincere about reexamining herself and being a better person, the best thing she can do is end this strife and unite the surviving Romulans and abdicate.
Why do you assume that KDF-allied Romulans are not reunificationists? One of mine is, and the only reason he's KDF-allied is that red doff missions are more interesting and profitable. A practical choice of mine, not a political allegiance of his
This shouldn't be limited to some Romulans. D'Kyr for ALL
Yeah, absolutely no reason KDF allied romulans wouldn't be reunificationists. We're all still RRF regardless of our choice at level 10.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Because It's a Vulcan ship, the idea of giving it to Fed Romulans is for reunificationists.
And if Sela is sincere about reexamining herself and being a better person, the best thing she can do is end this strife and unite the surviving Romulans and abdicate.
Why do you assume that KDF-allied Romulans are not reunificationists? One of mine is, and the only reason he's KDF-allied is that red doff missions are more interesting and profitable. A practical choice of mine, not a political allegiance of his
This shouldn't be limited to some Romulans. D'Kyr for ALL
Yeah, absolutely no reason KDF allied romulans wouldn't be reunificationists. We're all still RRF regardless of our choice at level 10.
I would think that the KDF would only want reunificationists, they were not fans of the RSE, and refused aid to them after the Hobus incident.
ruff, meow, moo, whatever.... *shrug* [ Still Waiting for a Shiny New T6 Romulan Science Ship to Command ]
Because It's a Vulcan ship, the idea of giving it to Fed Romulans is for reunificationists.
And if Sela is sincere about reexamining herself and being a better person, the best thing she can do is end this strife and unite the surviving Romulans and abdicate.
Why do you assume that KDF-allied Romulans are not reunificationists? One of mine is, and the only reason he's KDF-allied is that red doff missions are more interesting and profitable. A practical choice of mine, not a political allegiance of his
This shouldn't be limited to some Romulans. D'Kyr for ALL
Yeah, absolutely no reason KDF allied romulans wouldn't be reunificationists. We're all still RRF regardless of our choice at level 10.
I would think that the KDF would only want reunificationists, they were not fans of the RSE, and refused aid to them after the Hobus incident.
Not only did they refuse aid, they invaded what was left of the Empire trying to capture some planets while the getting was good. That was how Taris wound up Praetor in the first place, in fact: by kicking the Klingons' asses back to Qo'noS and using said fame to get the various remnant governments' support.
Once again, alliance system = utter story logic fail.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
If Sela should pay for her crimes than so should you. You are an accessory to the massacres of BILLIONS, and if by sheer luck you didn't have the world heart as a bargaining chip, you would have GUARANTEED been an accessory to genocide, or do you not remember what happens when the Iconians take Earth?
If Sela should pay for her crimes than so should you. You are an accessory to the massacres of BILLIONS, and if by sheer luck you didn't have the world heart as a bargaining chip, you would have GUARANTEED been an accessory to genocide, or do you not remember what happens when the Iconians take Earth?
Once again, alliance system = utter story logic fail.
That's why I treat it as an OOC game mechanics that has nothing to do with life choices, views or alliances my toons make.
*points at "Memory Lane"* Explain that one to me.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
If Sela should pay for her crimes than so should you. You are an accessory to the massacres of BILLIONS, and if by sheer luck you didn't have the world heart as a bargaining chip, you would have GUARANTEED been an accessory to genocide, or do you not remember what happens when the Iconians take Earth?
What the hell are you talking about?
I think he is referring to the fact that we let the Iconians live instead of making sure none survive. which makes no sense considering Sela tried to actually kill them and not to mention she has lots and lots of other crimes that everyone else wants her to pay for.
Sela gave them the motive, you gave them the opportunity. Granted, I'm reffering to THIS crime, as there are others unrelated to this that she probably has to pay for, but if Sela must pay for giving the Iconians the MOTIVE to commit mass genocide, then you must pay for giving them the OPPORTUNITY to do so.
Sela gave them the motive, you gave them the opportunity. Granted, I'm reffering to THIS crime, as there are others unrelated to this that she probably has to pay for, but if Sela must pay for giving the Iconians the MOTIVE to commit mass genocide, then you must pay for giving them the OPPORTUNITY to do so.
Nah, she acted out of bigotry and malice and narcissism. I acted out of compassion and justice. Motives matter.
Nah, she acted out of bigotry and malice and narcissism. I acted out of compassion and justice. Motives matter.
Yes, you committed treason and doomed the galaxy out of "Compassion". If you didn't grab the orb of peace, hell, if you never even KNEW about it, The Iconians would have destroyed the rest of the fleet, and conquered the rest of the galaxy. And before you say that my character would never do it because they're made of better stuff in the future, my character is Human. If you will remember in "Sphere of influence" What happens when the Iconians take Earth?
Yes, you committed treason and doomed the galaxy out of "Compassion". If you didn't grab the orb of peace, hell, if you never even KNEW about it, The Iconians would have destroyed the rest of the fleet, and conquered the rest of the galaxy. And before you say that my character would never do it because they're made of better stuff in the future. My Character is Human. If you will remember in "Sphere of influence" What happens when the Iconians take Earth?
Treason? I'm a Fleet Admiral in the Romulan Republic Forces. I don't take orders from Captain Kagran of the Klingon Defense Force. I'm also the Praetor of the Tal'Diann, which means that I have a permanent seat on the Continuing Committee of the New Romulan Republic and that I answer to Proconsul D'Tan -- and only to the Proconsul, not to Admiral Quinn, not to President Okeg, not to Chancellor J'mpok, not even to the Senate of the Republic, and certainly not to the halfwit Sela. D'Tan. Now, what do you think D'Tan's orders would have been had he been with me 200,000 years in the past on Iconia? And had Sela not been there with me, the entire timeline would have been altered by my acting according to both Compassion and Justice (I note you overlooked that latter virtue, probably because the concept is so poorly understood by Humans, who often conflate Justice with Retribution, and while Retributive Justice is indeed a type of Justice, it is only one type of Justice, even in Human thought).
I am very well aware of what the Iconians' plans were for the Sol system (you do realize, I suppose, that Humans are no longer limited to the Sol system?), and the Klingons, and, far more relevantly to me, the entire species of Romulans and Remans (and that the Ikonnsu had already tried three times to eradicate our two species).
And if you're a Terrhaha, what are you doing lecturing us with your own cultural values, which we do not share and do not wish to share? Must be more of that Human arrogance for which some of your species are notorious. *makes a dismissive gesture with her hand* Go back to Terrha and preach your zealotry to your fellow Terrhasu. I have a feeling they will not embrace your views.
"Treason: Noun. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign." What else could aiding the enemies of the Alliance, Federation, Romulan Republic, AND Klingon Empire be?
And JUSTICE? You want to lecture ME on Justice while THOUSANDS of crews who died valiantly to stop these monsters, who themselves cry out for justice against these butchers. They died so that we may defeat these monsters. Showing compassion to these Omnicidal maniacs is an INSULT to their memory.
And what if Sela wasn't there? Did you not remember L'miren saying that "We will never forget this day" And if the Romulans are the only target, (which they didn't even exist at the time) then why must the rest of the galaxy fall?
Not to mention the fact that it's still the extermination of the entire population of Earth. Are you THAT callous to let 12 Iconians survive, but let the entire population of the Earth die?
In terms of what D'tan would do, seeing that there was no alternative that exists with the Iconians and Romulans alive, and given the opportunity to do so, I think D'tan WOULD order the death of the Iconians. Did not Kagren say that "Freedom" would be just a word if we failed? They may USED to have been a peaceful race, but so were the Undine. Neither are peaceful now. Would you aid the Undine too, even though they only wish our extermination? Also, do you not remember what Kagren said at the beginning? If we lose the Sol system, we lose the war. Your act of "Compassion" and "Justice", dooms TRILLIONS to death and enslavement, you doom your own race to subsumance to the Elachi, those who have been harvesting your people, who led you to the Republic in the first place. Are you willing to let your people be changed into these monsters? You doom the Klingons to eternal enslavement, you doom the human race to extinction because "High creativity levels and self-preservation instinct make them inclined to fight rather than submit when faced by overwhelming foe. See "Borg" for more information. Can be aggressive when threatened."
The Iconians have no choice BUT to exterminate the human race. Don't forget though why you survived the first three attempts at genocide, because the Iconians didn't intervene themselves. The Iconians WILL NOT FAIL this time. Tell me again that you should save them, when your entire species is at risk. Tell me again that you should save them when TRILLIONS will DIE or be enslaved to them if they win! Is this revenge against us for something we have done to you? Is not ONE genocide enough for you?
Truth be told, I was a bit shocked as well when I first heard the order, We're actually going to do it, there's no alternative. All talks have failed, we constantly lose ships, lose ground. If we fail, we die. But, with all the attempts we have made for peace with them, all of them refused. They will not accept anything except our total extermination or subjugation. War is ugly, but it is sometimes necessary, and when it's a fight for survival, EVERY option is on the table.
So, you can either fight to survive, fight to stay free, or prepare your knees to bow before your new masters, and hope they won't kill you anyway.
Once again, alliance system = utter story logic fail.
That's why I treat it as an OOC game mechanics that has nothing to do with life choices, views or alliances my toons make.
*points at "Memory Lane"* Explain that one to me.
I wish I could.
I was more referring to the artificial division into Fed/KDF /allegiances/fleets and the results of that. The nonsense in the actual story... a really bad dream?
"Treason: Noun. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign." What else could aiding the enemies of the Alliance, Federation, Romulan Republic, AND Klingon Empire be?
Actually, a significant incursion like removing the Iconians from the timeline might turn to be an act of treason under your definition, as it could lead to a completely different future without the Federation, Klingon Empire, Romulan Star Empire or Romulan Republic.
And in fact, any member of the Romulan Republic is probably intimately aware that without the Hobus Supernova, there might be no Romulan REpublic, and that means you would commit an act of treason if you altered the timeline so that the Romulan Republic no longer exists. Of course, no one would know for the better.
And of course, since our actions did end the war, we averted overthrowing our governments. Turning your enemy into neutrals and stopping them from waging war on you, or at least averting the imminent success of their war campaign against you is usually not an act of treason.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Didn't Noye say that we would sending a person back to the past to help direct the timeline? That would cut down on the randomness of the timeline dramatically. Better in my opinion to go along with the plan and unknowingly and unintentionally prevent the powers from existing, then to directly betray your mission, and thereby betray your governments, just to HOPE that the Iconians will forgive the galaxy after 200,000 years of holding this grudge because you have a freaking bowling ball. I feel safer in the wiles of temporal mechanics than at the mercy of the Iconians, I think the governments would feel the same way.
Also, yeah, we ended the war, but we didn't win, we survived because of plot convenience, and that's it. If the Iconians wanted to, they could have taken the world heart and still annihilated us. Hell, T'KET ALONE could have annihilated us, we were THAT short on ships. Also, did we not see in "Butterfly" that the Star Empire would have been de-stabilizing anyway? Their power structure was failing. The Republic was only a matter of time, but it would have probably taken a bit longer. Also, if it helps, Spock wouldn't have died, so he could help lead the Romulans toward Republic and re-unification for longer. (though he looks like he was on his way out anyway)
Tell me, straight-up. Would you be willing to risk the safety of the galaxy hoping that the ones who slaughtered millions, irrespective of who they are, whether through proxies, or directly, slaughtered and devastated planets, and almost committed genocide, would just drop this grudge that they have held against all other life in the galaxy for 200,000 years?
"Treason: Noun. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign." What else could aiding the enemies of the Alliance, Federation, Romulan Republic, AND Klingon Empire be?
And JUSTICE? You want to lecture ME on Justice while THOUSANDS of crews who died valiantly to stop these monsters, who themselves cry out for justice against these butchers. They died so that we may defeat these monsters. Showing compassion to these Omnicidal maniacs is an INSULT to their memory.
And what if Sela wasn't there? Did you not remember L'miren saying that "We will never forget this day" And if the Romulans are the only target, (which they didn't even exist at the time) then why must the rest of the galaxy fall?
Not to mention the fact that it's still the extermination of the entire population of Earth. Are you THAT callous to let 12 Iconians survive, but let the entire population of the Earth die?
In terms of what D'tan would do, seeing that there was no alternative that exists with the Iconians and Romulans alive, and given the opportunity to do so, I think D'tan WOULD order the death of the Iconians. Did not Kagren say that "Freedom" would be just a word if we failed? They may USED to have been a peaceful race, but so were the Undine. Neither are peaceful now. Would you aid the Undine too, even though they only wish our extermination? Also, do you not remember what Kagren said at the beginning? If we lose the Sol system, we lose the war. Your act of "Compassion" and "Justice", dooms TRILLIONS to death and enslavement, you doom your own race to subsumance to the Elachi, those who have been harvesting your people, who led you to the Republic in the first place. Are you willing to let your people be changed into these monsters? You doom the Klingons to eternal enslavement, you doom the human race to extinction because "High creativity levels and self-preservation instinct make them inclined to fight rather than submit when faced by overwhelming foe. See "Borg" for more information. Can be aggressive when threatened."
The Iconians have no choice BUT to exterminate the human race. Don't forget though why you survived the first three attempts at genocide, because the Iconians didn't intervene themselves. The Iconians WILL NOT FAIL this time. Tell me again that you should save them, when your entire species is at risk. Tell me again that you should save them when TRILLIONS will DIE or be enslaved to them if they win! Is this revenge against us for something we have done to you? Is not ONE genocide enough for you?
Truth be told, I was a bit shocked as well when I first heard the order, We're actually going to do it, there's no alternative. All talks have failed, we constantly lose ships, lose ground. If we fail, we die. But, with all the attempts we have made for peace with them, all of them refused. They will not accept anything except our total extermination or subjugation. War is ugly, but it is sometimes necessary, and when it's a fight for survival, EVERY option is on the table.
So, you can either fight to survive, fight to stay free, or prepare your knees to bow before your new masters, and hope they won't kill you anyway.
Since my act was not intended to overthrow the government of the Republic, nor to harm or kill its "sovereign," and did not have the consequence of any of the same, it was not treason.
And yes, I will lecture you on Justice. You have clearly demonstrated that your concept of Justice is limited to Retribution. There are many types of Justice, and many things which Justice demands, not merely Retribution. And Justice is not preemptive. To punish someone for a crime they have not yet committed, but may commit, is simply unjust, no matter what intellectual gymnastics you attempt to rationalize such a thing. But more relevantly, I will lecture you on Mnhei'sahe. To begin, I shall define the word in your Federation Standard Aenglish:
mnhei’sahe—the Ruling Passion: a concept or concept-complex which rules most of Rihannsu life in terms of honor. Mnhei’sahe is primarily occupied with courtesy to the people around one: this courtesy, depending on circumstances, may require killing a person to do him honor, or severely disadvantaging oneself on his behalf. There are many ramifications too involved to go into, but generally mnhei’sahe is satisfied if all the parties to an agreement or situation feel that their “face” or honor is intact after a social (or other) transaction. NB: The concept has occasionally been mistranslated as implying that a given action is done “for another person’s good.” This is incorrect; such a concept literally does not exist in Rihannsu. One does things for one’s own good—or rather, the good of one’s honor—and if properly carried out, the actions in question will have benefited the other parties in the transaction as well.
((from the glossary in the back of The Romulan Way, by Diane Duane and Peter Norwood))
To massacre innocents who have done no harm to anyone would be more than a little discourteous, and would not leave my honor intact. The only two people who acted in a discourteous manner in the social interaction were Sela and T'Ket.
The remainder of your post is not worth my time, so go on back to Terrha, and mind your business. Our people are warriors, often savage, but we are also many other pleasant things. The next time you presume to lecture me on virtues, either have some idea of what you're discussing or be prepared for me to act according to mnhei'sahe -- which may be something you would find more savage than pleasant.
"Treason: Noun. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign." What else could aiding the enemies of the Alliance, Federation, Romulan Republic, AND Klingon Empire be?
And JUSTICE? You want to lecture ME on Justice while THOUSANDS of crews who died valiantly to stop these monsters, who themselves cry out for justice against these butchers. They died so that we may defeat these monsters. Showing compassion to these Omnicidal maniacs is an INSULT to their memory.
And what if Sela wasn't there? Did you not remember L'miren saying that "We will never forget this day" And if the Romulans are the only target, (which they didn't even exist at the time) then why must the rest of the galaxy fall?
Not to mention the fact that it's still the extermination of the entire population of Earth. Are you THAT callous to let 12 Iconians survive, but let the entire population of the Earth die?
In terms of what D'tan would do, seeing that there was no alternative that exists with the Iconians and Romulans alive, and given the opportunity to do so, I think D'tan WOULD order the death of the Iconians. Did not Kagren say that "Freedom" would be just a word if we failed? They may USED to have been a peaceful race, but so were the Undine. Neither are peaceful now. Would you aid the Undine too, even though they only wish our extermination? Also, do you not remember what Kagren said at the beginning? If we lose the Sol system, we lose the war. Your act of "Compassion" and "Justice", dooms TRILLIONS to death and enslavement, you doom your own race to subsumance to the Elachi, those who have been harvesting your people, who led you to the Republic in the first place. Are you willing to let your people be changed into these monsters? You doom the Klingons to eternal enslavement, you doom the human race to extinction because "High creativity levels and self-preservation instinct make them inclined to fight rather than submit when faced by overwhelming foe. See "Borg" for more information. Can be aggressive when threatened."
The Iconians have no choice BUT to exterminate the human race. Don't forget though why you survived the first three attempts at genocide, because the Iconians didn't intervene themselves. The Iconians WILL NOT FAIL this time. Tell me again that you should save them, when your entire species is at risk. Tell me again that you should save them when TRILLIONS will DIE or be enslaved to them if they win! Is this revenge against us for something we have done to you? Is not ONE genocide enough for you?
Truth be told, I was a bit shocked as well when I first heard the order, We're actually going to do it, there's no alternative. All talks have failed, we constantly lose ships, lose ground. If we fail, we die. But, with all the attempts we have made for peace with them, all of them refused. They will not accept anything except our total extermination or subjugation. War is ugly, but it is sometimes necessary, and when it's a fight for survival, EVERY option is on the table.
So, you can either fight to survive, fight to stay free, or prepare your knees to bow before your new masters, and hope they won't kill you anyway.
Since my act was not intended to overthrow the government of the Republic, nor to harm or kill its "sovereign," and did not have the consequence of any of the same, it was not treason.
And yes, I will lecture you on Justice. You have clearly demonstrated that your concept of Justice is limited to Retribution. There are many types of Justice, and many things which Justice demands, not merely Retribution. And Justice is not preemptive. To punish someone for a crime they have not yet committed, but may commit, is simply unjust, no matter what intellectual gymnastics you attempt to rationalize such a thing. But more relevantly, I will lecture you on Mnhei'sahe. To begin, I shall define the word in your Federation Standard Aenglish:
mnhei’sahe—the Ruling Passion: a concept or concept-complex which rules most of Rihannsu life in terms of honor. Mnhei’sahe is primarily occupied with courtesy to the people around one: this courtesy, depending on circumstances, may require killing a person to do him honor, or severely disadvantaging oneself on his behalf. There are many ramifications too involved to go into, but generally mnhei’sahe is satisfied if all the parties to an agreement or situation feel that their “face” or honor is intact after a social (or other) transaction. NB: The concept has occasionally been mistranslated as implying that a given action is done “for another person’s good.” This is incorrect; such a concept literally does not exist in Rihannsu. One does things for one’s own good—or rather, the good of one’s honor—and if properly carried out, the actions in question will have benefited the other parties in the transaction as well.
((from the glossary in the back of The Romulan Way, by Diane Duane and Peter Norwood))
To massacre innocents who have done no harm to anyone would be more than a little discourteous, and would not leave my honor intact. The only two people who acted in a discourteous manner in the social interaction were Sela and T'Ket.
The remainder of your post is not worth my time, so go on back to Terrha, and mind your business. Our people are warriors, often savage, but we are also many other pleasant things. The next time you presume to lecture me on virtues, either have some idea of what you're discussing or be prepared for me to act according to mnhei'sahe -- which may be something you would find more savage than pleasant.
Have fun serving the Iconians! Because if we fail, all those words will be meaningless. Also, "MAY" commit? No harm to anyone? YOU LIVED THROUGH IT. MAY? No, DID. Tell that to the Preservers, tell that to your tactical officer who had a friend on the Stardancer. Because clearly the Iconians are more important to your "honor" (which, as before, is just a word if we fail) than trillions of lives that would have been lost because of your "Honor". No, You go back to your beloved Rihannsu and think of the crimes the Iconians "MAY" do, and remember why there's a memorial there. Sela is wrong on many things, but not this one. She may have struck out of vengeance for crimes the Iconians HAVE DONE, but our strike was about self-preservation over all. Given how many of your kind have died at the hands of the Iconians and Elachi, I'm surprised you seem to have forgotten about that concept. You want to duel me with philosphy? Fine, I'll hit you with some of Earth's finest. “Anger may in time change to gladness; vexation may be succeeded by content. But a kingdom that has once been destroyed can never come again into being; nor can the dead ever be brought back to life.” Sun Tzu, the Art of War.
Also, Political correctness is more important than survival? Naivete like this makes Section 31 seem attractive. They at least are willing to do what's necessary. And that's what it is in the end, Naivete. You save Khan Noonian Singh and then he goes on a tear through the stars, and you're not responsible? Let me ask you the same question as the other guy.
Tell me, straight-up. Would you be willing to risk the safety of the galaxy hoping that the ones who slaughtered millions, irrespective of who they are, whether through proxies, or directly, destroyed and devastated planets, and almost committed genocide, would just drop this grudge that they have held against all other life in the galaxy for 200,000 years?
"Treason: Noun. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign." What else could aiding the enemies of the Alliance, Federation, Romulan Republic, AND Klingon Empire be?
And JUSTICE? You want to lecture ME on Justice while THOUSANDS of crews who died valiantly to stop these monsters, who themselves cry out for justice against these butchers. They died so that we may defeat these monsters. Showing compassion to these Omnicidal maniacs is an INSULT to their memory.
And what if Sela wasn't there? Did you not remember L'miren saying that "We will never forget this day" And if the Romulans are the only target, (which they didn't even exist at the time) then why must the rest of the galaxy fall?
Not to mention the fact that it's still the extermination of the entire population of Earth. Are you THAT callous to let 12 Iconians survive, but let the entire population of the Earth die?
In terms of what D'tan would do, seeing that there was no alternative that exists with the Iconians and Romulans alive, and given the opportunity to do so, I think D'tan WOULD order the death of the Iconians. Did not Kagren say that "Freedom" would be just a word if we failed? They may USED to have been a peaceful race, but so were the Undine. Neither are peaceful now. Would you aid the Undine too, even though they only wish our extermination? Also, do you not remember what Kagren said at the beginning? If we lose the Sol system, we lose the war. Your act of "Compassion" and "Justice", dooms TRILLIONS to death and enslavement, you doom your own race to subsumance to the Elachi, those who have been harvesting your people, who led you to the Republic in the first place. Are you willing to let your people be changed into these monsters? You doom the Klingons to eternal enslavement, you doom the human race to extinction because "High creativity levels and self-preservation instinct make them inclined to fight rather than submit when faced by overwhelming foe. See "Borg" for more information. Can be aggressive when threatened."
The Iconians have no choice BUT to exterminate the human race. Don't forget though why you survived the first three attempts at genocide, because the Iconians didn't intervene themselves. The Iconians WILL NOT FAIL this time. Tell me again that you should save them, when your entire species is at risk. Tell me again that you should save them when TRILLIONS will DIE or be enslaved to them if they win! Is this revenge against us for something we have done to you? Is not ONE genocide enough for you?
Truth be told, I was a bit shocked as well when I first heard the order, We're actually going to do it, there's no alternative. All talks have failed, we constantly lose ships, lose ground. If we fail, we die. But, with all the attempts we have made for peace with them, all of them refused. They will not accept anything except our total extermination or subjugation. War is ugly, but it is sometimes necessary, and when it's a fight for survival, EVERY option is on the table.
So, you can either fight to survive, fight to stay free, or prepare your knees to bow before your new masters, and hope they won't kill you anyway.
Since my act was not intended to overthrow the government of the Republic, nor to harm or kill its "sovereign," and did not have the consequence of any of the same, it was not treason.
And yes, I will lecture you on Justice. You have clearly demonstrated that your concept of Justice is limited to Retribution. There are many types of Justice, and many things which Justice demands, not merely Retribution. And Justice is not preemptive. To punish someone for a crime they have not yet committed, but may commit, is simply unjust, no matter what intellectual gymnastics you attempt to rationalize such a thing. But more relevantly, I will lecture you on Mnhei'sahe. To begin, I shall define the word in your Federation Standard Aenglish:
mnhei’sahe—the Ruling Passion: a concept or concept-complex which rules most of Rihannsu life in terms of honor. Mnhei’sahe is primarily occupied with courtesy to the people around one: this courtesy, depending on circumstances, may require killing a person to do him honor, or severely disadvantaging oneself on his behalf. There are many ramifications too involved to go into, but generally mnhei’sahe is satisfied if all the parties to an agreement or situation feel that their “face” or honor is intact after a social (or other) transaction. NB: The concept has occasionally been mistranslated as implying that a given action is done “for another person’s good.” This is incorrect; such a concept literally does not exist in Rihannsu. One does things for one’s own good—or rather, the good of one’s honor—and if properly carried out, the actions in question will have benefited the other parties in the transaction as well.
((from the glossary in the back of The Romulan Way, by Diane Duane and Peter Norwood))
To massacre innocents who have done no harm to anyone would be more than a little discourteous, and would not leave my honor intact. The only two people who acted in a discourteous manner in the social interaction were Sela and T'Ket.
The remainder of your post is not worth my time, so go on back to Terrha, and mind your business. Our people are warriors, often savage, but we are also many other pleasant things. The next time you presume to lecture me on virtues, either have some idea of what you're discussing or be prepared for me to act according to mnhei'sahe -- which may be something you would find more savage than pleasant.
Have fun serving the Iconians! Because if we fail, all those words will be meaningless. Also, "MAY" commit? No harm to anyone? YOU LIVED THROUGH IT. MAY? No, DID. Tell that to the Preservers, tell that to your tactical officer who had a friend on the Stardancer. Because clearly the Iconians are more important to your "honor" (which, as before, is just a word if we fail) than trillions of lives that would have been lost because of your "Honor". No, You go back to your beloved Rihannsu and think of the crimes the Iconians "MAY" do, and remember why there's a memorial there. Sela is wrong on many things, but not this one. She may have struck out of vengeance for crimes the Iconians HAVE DONE, but our strike was about self-preservation over all. Given how many of your kind have died at the hands of the Iconians and Elachi, I'm surprised you seem to have forgotten about that concept. You want to duel me with philosphy? Fine, I'll hit you with some of Earth's finest. “Anger may in time change to gladness; vexation may be succeeded by content. But a kingdom that has once been destroyed can never come again into being; nor can the dead ever be brought back to life.” Sun Tzu, the Art of War.
Also, Political correctness is more important than survival? Naivete like this makes Section 31 seem attractive. They at least are willing to do what's necessary. And that's what it is in the end, Naivete. You save Khan Noonian Singh and then he goes on a tear through the stars, and you're not responsible? Let me ask you the same question as the other guy.
Tell me, straight-up. Would you be willing to risk the safety of the galaxy hoping that the ones who slaughtered millions, irrespective of who they are, whether through proxies, or directly, destroyed and devastated planets, and almost committed genocide, would just drop this grudge that they have held against all other life in the galaxy for 200,000 years?
((Have you actually played the mission and read the dialogue therein? Do you have any grasp of temporal mechanics? Do you realize that the Ikonnsu of 200,000 years ago had done nothing to anyone, and therefore could not be punished for acts which were in the past of your character's own timeline? 200,000 years ago, the use of "may" is quite appropriate; assuming that you remember that our characters went into the past in an effort to change history. History could be altered in subtle or extreme ways by things done by our characters in that past. The whole point of going to the past was to change history. A law enforcement officer must use personal discretion in her/his duties; a military officer must have intestinal fortitude, which means, among other things, the courage to disobey an unjust order and accept the consequences of that disobedience, in order to prevent events like those which occurred at Auschwitz, Buchenwald, My Lai, Abu Ghraib, and so on.))
200,000 years ago, the Ikonnsu had done nothing to the Rihannsu, but one Rihanha, obsessed with self-aggrandizement, absorbed in delusions of her own messiah complex, did something to the Ikonnsu.
Sela was wrong in the mission, as she has nearly always been wrong, and will almost certainly continue to be wrong until she acts in accordance with mnhei'sahe and puts herself out of our misery, or until my sword slakes its thirst in her lifeblood. Sela was the cause of it all, and Retributive Justice will be fulfilled in her case, for her crimes have been committed in her past as well as ours. We will not go into the past to preemptively punish her for crimes she has not yet committed in that past.
In response to your Sun Tsu, a single example from your own history gives the lie to his claim: Poland, a nation-state destroyed, and yet later restored.
Another of your philosophers wrote another book also about "the art of war," in which he stated:
"Debbe uno capitano, tra tutte l'altre sue azioni, con ogni arte ingegnarsi di dividere le forze del nimico, o col fargli sospetti i suoi uomini ne' quali confida, o con dargli cagione ch'egli abbia a separare le sue genti e, per questo, diventare più debole." The author was Niccolò Machiavelli, the text was libro sesto of Dell'arte della guerra. The Rihanh are far more familiar with such schemes than your people. It would be unwise -- even foolhardy -- to play games of this sort with Rihannsu.
Political Correctness? What are you prattling about? The idea of "Political Correctness" is a Terrhain concept; it has no relevance to the Rihannsu, and attempts to understand Rihan acts in terms of such a Terrhain notion are presumptuous, more of that Terrhain arrogance for which some of your species are notorious.
((You might want to go back and look at my posts in the several threads in the General Discussion forum about "Butterfly" before it happened, chum, before you continue this challenge, because you really don't know who you're talking to nor what she is on record as having stated. But context, as I have stated in those same threads, is important. Following orders is not. I would think your species had learned that lesson long ago ...))
You didn't answer my question. Would you be willing to risk the safety of the galaxy hoping that the ones who slaughtered millions, irrespective of who they are, whether through proxies, or directly, destroyed and devastated planets, and almost committed genocide, would just drop this grudge that they have held against all other life in the galaxy for 200,000 years?
No, Sela is not the cause for this, the Iconians are. Otherwise, why not just stop at capturing Sela? Why must the rest of her race, why must the rest of the GALAXY burn for what she did? Furthermore, did the Iconians forget that it was a Human (or Romulans in your case) that saved them? Why must the rest of the galaxy burn? WHY? Their most ardent defender was a Klingon, yet they mercilessly attack the first city, and order the Undine to destroy Qo'nos! Sela had NOTHING to do with it. This would be called on "Terrha" First degree murder. Because they were humiliated, just like you, and they swore that they would never be humbled again, because apparantly, just like you, they thought they were gods. No. They would have attacked anyway, Sela was AT MOST an excuse to target Romulus specifically, and why not blow it up beforehand? Hell, if they're so peaceful, why not just let the offense slide? They'll live much longer than Sela will anyhow! They will still have the last laugh! (so to speak)
As a matter of fact, an interesting hypothesis I just came up with actually means that Sela is more of a hero than we could ever imagine! My theory is, The Iconians lust for revenge against her was so great, they actually WAITED FOR HER TO BE BORN AND BECOME AN ADULT before they destroyed Romulus and attacked. Because Sela was born so far in the future, in that time, we actually gained the capability to fight back. We would not have been able to get the timeship if Sela hadn't been born when she did. because the Iconians had so much firepower, they might have attacked before the timeship blueprints could be completed, so we wouldn't be able to fight back, or win. We wouldn't have been able to save their magic 8-ball, or save the Iconians in the past.
If the Romulans are more familiar with the concepts than we lowly humans, who deserve nothing more than to bow and kiss the boots of our Romulan overlords, (who then ACTUALLY kiss the boots of the Iconians before they are turned into Elachi), than wouldn't it be natural to stab the Iconians in the back to save your own skins? You seem to do it to your own kind often enough.
Furthermore, if you're barking at me for putting out "Terrhain" concepts, (because they have no value to the almighty wisdom of the Rihannsu, (and you want re-unification with the Vulcans, how cute!)), than what reason other than arrogance, could you have to want and try and force Romulan ideals on this poor, lowly human, when it's our planet on the line?
FURTHERMORE, As stated before, without that magic 8-ball, we would have died. This is as close as we get to the Jem'hadar saying, "Victory is life". You're willing to let the Iconians WIN THE WAR for your "Honor". No, there is a point where one must put "Honor" aside and consider the actual consequences of your actions.
Talking from a strategic standpoint, without the magic 8-ball (say Sela shot and disintegrated it when she turned on the Iconians), is there any strategic or logical value is letting the Iconians escape? Because the Iconians will demand absolute proof that you are the "Others", We humans should know more than anyone (except the glory and majesty of the magnificent Rihannsu) that one person can resemble another without actually being that person, especially if those people were alive 200,000 years ago, they would have no reason to believe they were alive today. In the actual story you had the aforementioned magic 8-ball as a bargaining chip, and proof you were the "Others". What do you have now? Nothing. Tket will kill you, (especially if you're a Romulan) The fight will continue and you will lose, all life in the galaxy will either bow to the Iconians or die by their hand, and all because you let them escape.
You didn't answer my question. Would you be willing to risk the safety of the galaxy hoping that the ones who slaughtered millions, irrespective of who they are, whether through proxies, or directly, destroyed and devastated planets, and almost committed genocide, would just drop this grudge that they have held against all other life in the galaxy for 200,000 years?
No, Sela is not the cause for this, the Iconians are. Otherwise, why not just stop at capturing Sela? Why must the rest of her race, why must the rest of the GALAXY burn for what she did? Furthermore, did the Iconians forget that it was a Human (or Romulans in your case) that saved them? Why must the rest of the galaxy burn? WHY? Their most ardent defender was a Klingon, yet they mercilessly attack the first city, and order the Undine to destroy Qo'nos! Sela had NOTHING to do with it. This would be called on "Terrha" First degree murder. Because they were humiliated, just like you, and they swore that they would never be humbled again, because apparantly, just like you, they thought they were gods. No. They would have attacked anyway, Sela was AT MOST an excuse to target Romulus specifically, and why not blow it up beforehand? Hell, if they're so peaceful, why not just let the offense slide? They'll live much longer than Sela will anyhow! They will still have the last laugh! (so to speak)
As a matter of fact, an interesting hypothesis I just came up with actually means that Sela is more of a hero than we could ever imagine! My theory is, The Iconians lust for revenge against her was so great, they actually WAITED FOR HER TO BE BORN AND BECOME AN ADULT before they destroyed Romulus and attacked. Because Sela was born so far in the future, in that time, we actually gained the capability to fight back. We would not have been able to get the timeship if Sela hadn't been born when she did. because the Iconians had so much firepower, they might have attacked before the timeship blueprints could be completed, so we wouldn't be able to fight back, or win. We wouldn't have been able to save their magic 8-ball, or save the Iconians in the past.
If the Romulans are more familiar with the concepts than we lowly humans, who deserve nothing more than to bow and kiss the boots of our Romulan overlords, (who then ACTUALLY kiss the boots of the Iconians before they are turned into Elachi), than wouldn't it be natural to stab the Iconians in the back to save your own skins? You seem to do it to your own kind often enough.
Furthermore, if you're barking at me for putting out "Terrhain" concepts, (because they have no value to the almighty wisdom of the Rihannsu, (and you want re-unification with the Vulcans, how cute!)), than what reason other than arrogance, could you have to want and try and force Romulan ideals on this poor, lowly human, when it's our planet on the line?
FURTHERMORE, As stated before, without that magic 8-ball, we would have died. This is as close as we get to the Jem'hadar saying, "Victory is life". You're willing to let the Iconians WIN THE WAR for your "Honor". No, there is a point where one must put "Honor" aside and consider the actual consequences of your actions.
Talking from a strategic standpoint, without the magic 8-ball (say Sela shot and disintegrated it when she turned on the Iconians), is there any strategic or logical value is letting the Iconians escape? Because the Iconians will demand absolute proof that you are the "Others", We humans should know more than anyone (except the glory and majesty of the magnificent Rihannsu) that one person can resemble another without actually being that person, especially if those people were alive 200,000 years ago, they would have no reason to believe they were alive today. In the actual story you had the aforementioned magic 8-ball as a bargaining chip, and proof you were the "Others". What do you have now? Nothing. Tket will kill you, (especially if you're a Romulan) The fight will continue and you will lose, all life in the galaxy will either bow to the Iconians or die by their hand, and all because you let them escape.
why are we even arguing about this. Sela has plenty of other crimes that are worth more then enough for life in prison, so whether she is in the right or the wrong it doesn't matter. I understand why a lot of people hate her but I hope we can just forgets about all her crimes if she has a change of heart and leads the Empire to join the Republic and maybe she can become a follower of D'Tan or what I personally hope for and what would seem more likely if that did happen is she would become the leading political rival to D'Tan. Whatever happens I hope she is an active character in Season 11.
Comments
The whole episode seemed rather contrived and rushed in many areas- Klingon captain going from 'kill em all!' to spouting Starfleet Dogma, The Iconians basically a cut and paste of the federation to hammer home how much we were supposed to sympathize with them, the invading aliens being so blatantly unworthy of Iconian tech and unsympathetic, the introduction of a last minute super important artifact in the last episode of the arc. Recognizing Sela as a Romulan even though they didn't exist yet, yet somehow not recognizing the species of the person stepping between her and them. The readiness with which the Iconians are willing to end the war at the drop of a hat, etc etc.
For what it's worth, I noticed that even if you side with Sela in every conversation and take every confrontational conversation option with the Iconians, the mission still unfolds exactly the same-defend them from invaders, recover the heart, and evacuate them. The other dialogue options might as well not even be there, as they just add another layer of stupidity to the plot as your player saves all the iconians instead of gunning them down as per their stated intent and then incompetently lets them escape as their back is turned. It's really quite humorous.
Yeah, I'd be inclined to let that one slide were it not for the fact Cryptic has the ability to tailor dialogs to particular species, and hasn't bothered to use it since "Surface Tension".
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I thought I could´nt loathe Sela more than I used to, but this episode shown me I was wrong.
That was seriously bizarre. Running that episode with an all-Romulan or all-Klingon away team makes the Iconians look like idiots.
So Sela basically does the same thing the Romulan player did to Hakeev, but to the Iconians (for pretty much the same reasons, no less) and she deserves to be tortured to death, her remains desecrated, ressurrected, adn then destroyed again?
Lets not lose sight of who was actually responsible for the loss of Romulus. T'Ket and the other eleven Iconians. Sela gunned down three Iconians. After that, the ball was in T'Ket's court...who escalated from there?
At the end of the day, it's just a lazy plot device to dump the responsibility for the crimes onto an already unsympathetic character in order to gloss over the fact that the Iconians did unspeakable crimes against the galaxy - all so the 'peaceful' resolution to the war isn't even more sudden and jarring than it already is.
"Revenge is a dish best served cold and out of proportion."
We could assume that Sela, as half-Romulan, looks a bit different: her hair colour, her eyebrows, a different uniform. But then that argument goes into oblivion, because if Iconians had taken such a close look at us to see the difference and assume we're not "Romulan", they'd recognise us earlier as the Other. And, naturally, if the player is a blond Romulan a la Sela look... or wears the Imperial uniform...
We can have up to 6 Romulans (the player, Sela, 4 away team), one is nasty, T'Ket kills them all for one nasty, not caring about the 5 good Rommies who helped her.
It just doesn't make sense. Or T'Ket is nuts.
I agree. This mock outrage at Sela was ridiculous, Crimes aside it was the iconians who pushed the button for hobus, they launched this war, killed billions of others, and suddenly after the entire arc where we've tried again and again to establish dialogue and stop the war, throughout they were clearly shown as a foe intent on our destruction, in almost every mission they view all other 'lower lifeforms' as pests, plus they destroyed all known preservers and their knowledge, we go back in time to do what must be done and end them, (even back then they are full of themselves. they think that they are gods) then everyone loses their spines and the mission turns into let em go and "save their magic snowglobe" cause maybe we can show them the true meaning of friendship.
flash back to the future where they are about destroy whats left of the fleet and suddenly the 'chosen one' *ahem* the other returns with the globe of peace from the phantom menace :P
Now everything is fine, peace shall be had except for T'ket. And even though they are eternally greatful they refuse to rein in T'ket who is still grethor bent on our destruction. Yeah no tribunals. no concessions from them not even a slap on the wrist. "We sure showed them!" (grrr?) But Sela needs 'the works' there's a word for that... Scapegoat. I don't care for Sela that much in game (mostly due to writing) and trust levels aren't the highest, and by no means is she blameless but I trust her word more than the Iconians. In them you have a threat far worse than the Dominion, that can build even more forces at will now. If the incompetent but still scummy Hakeev had to be dealt with than so should they. Anything less is a double standard.
[/SIGPIC]
I'm no fan of Sela, as a person, and as a rival of one of my characters, and I agree with your assesment.
Tal'Shiar/Reman Resistance/Romulan Nemesis uniform, pls.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/13262502435_5604548f2c_o.png
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Yeah, absolutely no reason KDF allied romulans wouldn't be reunificationists. We're all still RRF regardless of our choice at level 10.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
I would think that the KDF would only want reunificationists, they were not fans of the RSE, and refused aid to them after the Hobus incident.
[ Still Waiting for a Shiny New T6 Romulan Science Ship to Command ]
Not only did they refuse aid, they invaded what was left of the Empire trying to capture some planets while the getting was good. That was how Taris wound up Praetor in the first place, in fact: by kicking the Klingons' asses back to Qo'noS and using said fame to get the various remnant governments' support.
Once again, alliance system = utter story logic fail.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
That's why I treat it as an OOC game mechanics that has nothing to do with life choices, views or alliances my toons make.
What the hell are you talking about?
*points at "Memory Lane"* Explain that one to me.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I think he is referring to the fact that we let the Iconians live instead of making sure none survive. which makes no sense considering Sela tried to actually kill them and not to mention she has lots and lots of other crimes that everyone else wants her to pay for.
Nah, she acted out of bigotry and malice and narcissism. I acted out of compassion and justice. Motives matter.
Treason? I'm a Fleet Admiral in the Romulan Republic Forces. I don't take orders from Captain Kagran of the Klingon Defense Force. I'm also the Praetor of the Tal'Diann, which means that I have a permanent seat on the Continuing Committee of the New Romulan Republic and that I answer to Proconsul D'Tan -- and only to the Proconsul, not to Admiral Quinn, not to President Okeg, not to Chancellor J'mpok, not even to the Senate of the Republic, and certainly not to the halfwit Sela. D'Tan. Now, what do you think D'Tan's orders would have been had he been with me 200,000 years in the past on Iconia? And had Sela not been there with me, the entire timeline would have been altered by my acting according to both Compassion and Justice (I note you overlooked that latter virtue, probably because the concept is so poorly understood by Humans, who often conflate Justice with Retribution, and while Retributive Justice is indeed a type of Justice, it is only one type of Justice, even in Human thought).
I am very well aware of what the Iconians' plans were for the Sol system (you do realize, I suppose, that Humans are no longer limited to the Sol system?), and the Klingons, and, far more relevantly to me, the entire species of Romulans and Remans (and that the Ikonnsu had already tried three times to eradicate our two species).
And if you're a Terrhaha, what are you doing lecturing us with your own cultural values, which we do not share and do not wish to share? Must be more of that Human arrogance for which some of your species are notorious. *makes a dismissive gesture with her hand* Go back to Terrha and preach your zealotry to your fellow Terrhasu. I have a feeling they will not embrace your views.
And JUSTICE? You want to lecture ME on Justice while THOUSANDS of crews who died valiantly to stop these monsters, who themselves cry out for justice against these butchers. They died so that we may defeat these monsters. Showing compassion to these Omnicidal maniacs is an INSULT to their memory.
And what if Sela wasn't there? Did you not remember L'miren saying that "We will never forget this day" And if the Romulans are the only target, (which they didn't even exist at the time) then why must the rest of the galaxy fall?
Not to mention the fact that it's still the extermination of the entire population of Earth. Are you THAT callous to let 12 Iconians survive, but let the entire population of the Earth die?
In terms of what D'tan would do, seeing that there was no alternative that exists with the Iconians and Romulans alive, and given the opportunity to do so, I think D'tan WOULD order the death of the Iconians. Did not Kagren say that "Freedom" would be just a word if we failed? They may USED to have been a peaceful race, but so were the Undine. Neither are peaceful now. Would you aid the Undine too, even though they only wish our extermination? Also, do you not remember what Kagren said at the beginning? If we lose the Sol system, we lose the war. Your act of "Compassion" and "Justice", dooms TRILLIONS to death and enslavement, you doom your own race to subsumance to the Elachi, those who have been harvesting your people, who led you to the Republic in the first place. Are you willing to let your people be changed into these monsters? You doom the Klingons to eternal enslavement, you doom the human race to extinction because "High creativity levels and self-preservation instinct make them inclined to fight rather than submit when faced by overwhelming foe. See "Borg" for more information. Can be aggressive when threatened."
The Iconians have no choice BUT to exterminate the human race. Don't forget though why you survived the first three attempts at genocide, because the Iconians didn't intervene themselves. The Iconians WILL NOT FAIL this time. Tell me again that you should save them, when your entire species is at risk. Tell me again that you should save them when TRILLIONS will DIE or be enslaved to them if they win! Is this revenge against us for something we have done to you? Is not ONE genocide enough for you?
Truth be told, I was a bit shocked as well when I first heard the order, We're actually going to do it, there's no alternative. All talks have failed, we constantly lose ships, lose ground. If we fail, we die. But, with all the attempts we have made for peace with them, all of them refused. They will not accept anything except our total extermination or subjugation. War is ugly, but it is sometimes necessary, and when it's a fight for survival, EVERY option is on the table.
So, you can either fight to survive, fight to stay free, or prepare your knees to bow before your new masters, and hope they won't kill you anyway.
I wish I could.
I was more referring to the artificial division into Fed/KDF /allegiances/fleets and the results of that. The nonsense in the actual story... a really bad dream?
And in fact, any member of the Romulan Republic is probably intimately aware that without the Hobus Supernova, there might be no Romulan REpublic, and that means you would commit an act of treason if you altered the timeline so that the Romulan Republic no longer exists. Of course, no one would know for the better.
And of course, since our actions did end the war, we averted overthrowing our governments. Turning your enemy into neutrals and stopping them from waging war on you, or at least averting the imminent success of their war campaign against you is usually not an act of treason.
Also, yeah, we ended the war, but we didn't win, we survived because of plot convenience, and that's it. If the Iconians wanted to, they could have taken the world heart and still annihilated us. Hell, T'KET ALONE could have annihilated us, we were THAT short on ships. Also, did we not see in "Butterfly" that the Star Empire would have been de-stabilizing anyway? Their power structure was failing. The Republic was only a matter of time, but it would have probably taken a bit longer. Also, if it helps, Spock wouldn't have died, so he could help lead the Romulans toward Republic and re-unification for longer. (though he looks like he was on his way out anyway)
Tell me, straight-up. Would you be willing to risk the safety of the galaxy hoping that the ones who slaughtered millions, irrespective of who they are, whether through proxies, or directly, slaughtered and devastated planets, and almost committed genocide, would just drop this grudge that they have held against all other life in the galaxy for 200,000 years?
Since my act was not intended to overthrow the government of the Republic, nor to harm or kill its "sovereign," and did not have the consequence of any of the same, it was not treason.
And yes, I will lecture you on Justice. You have clearly demonstrated that your concept of Justice is limited to Retribution. There are many types of Justice, and many things which Justice demands, not merely Retribution. And Justice is not preemptive. To punish someone for a crime they have not yet committed, but may commit, is simply unjust, no matter what intellectual gymnastics you attempt to rationalize such a thing. But more relevantly, I will lecture you on Mnhei'sahe. To begin, I shall define the word in your Federation Standard Aenglish:
mnhei’sahe—the Ruling Passion: a concept or concept-complex which rules most of Rihannsu life in terms of honor. Mnhei’sahe is primarily occupied with courtesy to the people around one: this courtesy, depending on circumstances, may require killing a person to do him honor, or severely disadvantaging oneself on his behalf. There are many ramifications too involved to go into, but generally mnhei’sahe is satisfied if all the parties to an agreement or situation feel that their “face” or honor is intact after a social (or other) transaction. NB: The concept has occasionally been mistranslated as implying that a given action is done “for another person’s good.” This is incorrect; such a concept literally does not exist in Rihannsu. One does things for one’s own good—or rather, the good of one’s honor—and if properly carried out, the actions in question will have benefited the other parties in the transaction as well.
((from the glossary in the back of The Romulan Way, by Diane Duane and Peter Norwood))
To massacre innocents who have done no harm to anyone would be more than a little discourteous, and would not leave my honor intact. The only two people who acted in a discourteous manner in the social interaction were Sela and T'Ket.
The remainder of your post is not worth my time, so go on back to Terrha, and mind your business. Our people are warriors, often savage, but we are also many other pleasant things. The next time you presume to lecture me on virtues, either have some idea of what you're discussing or be prepared for me to act according to mnhei'sahe -- which may be something you would find more savage than pleasant.
Have fun serving the Iconians! Because if we fail, all those words will be meaningless. Also, "MAY" commit? No harm to anyone? YOU LIVED THROUGH IT. MAY? No, DID. Tell that to the Preservers, tell that to your tactical officer who had a friend on the Stardancer. Because clearly the Iconians are more important to your "honor" (which, as before, is just a word if we fail) than trillions of lives that would have been lost because of your "Honor". No, You go back to your beloved Rihannsu and think of the crimes the Iconians "MAY" do, and remember why there's a memorial there. Sela is wrong on many things, but not this one. She may have struck out of vengeance for crimes the Iconians HAVE DONE, but our strike was about self-preservation over all. Given how many of your kind have died at the hands of the Iconians and Elachi, I'm surprised you seem to have forgotten about that concept. You want to duel me with philosphy? Fine, I'll hit you with some of Earth's finest. “Anger may in time change to gladness; vexation may be succeeded by content. But a kingdom that has once been destroyed can never come again into being; nor can the dead ever be brought back to life.” Sun Tzu, the Art of War.
Also, Political correctness is more important than survival? Naivete like this makes Section 31 seem attractive. They at least are willing to do what's necessary. And that's what it is in the end, Naivete. You save Khan Noonian Singh and then he goes on a tear through the stars, and you're not responsible? Let me ask you the same question as the other guy.
Tell me, straight-up. Would you be willing to risk the safety of the galaxy hoping that the ones who slaughtered millions, irrespective of who they are, whether through proxies, or directly, destroyed and devastated planets, and almost committed genocide, would just drop this grudge that they have held against all other life in the galaxy for 200,000 years?
((Have you actually played the mission and read the dialogue therein? Do you have any grasp of temporal mechanics? Do you realize that the Ikonnsu of 200,000 years ago had done nothing to anyone, and therefore could not be punished for acts which were in the past of your character's own timeline? 200,000 years ago, the use of "may" is quite appropriate; assuming that you remember that our characters went into the past in an effort to change history. History could be altered in subtle or extreme ways by things done by our characters in that past. The whole point of going to the past was to change history. A law enforcement officer must use personal discretion in her/his duties; a military officer must have intestinal fortitude, which means, among other things, the courage to disobey an unjust order and accept the consequences of that disobedience, in order to prevent events like those which occurred at Auschwitz, Buchenwald, My Lai, Abu Ghraib, and so on.))
200,000 years ago, the Ikonnsu had done nothing to the Rihannsu, but one Rihanha, obsessed with self-aggrandizement, absorbed in delusions of her own messiah complex, did something to the Ikonnsu.
Sela was wrong in the mission, as she has nearly always been wrong, and will almost certainly continue to be wrong until she acts in accordance with mnhei'sahe and puts herself out of our misery, or until my sword slakes its thirst in her lifeblood. Sela was the cause of it all, and Retributive Justice will be fulfilled in her case, for her crimes have been committed in her past as well as ours. We will not go into the past to preemptively punish her for crimes she has not yet committed in that past.
In response to your Sun Tsu, a single example from your own history gives the lie to his claim: Poland, a nation-state destroyed, and yet later restored.
Another of your philosophers wrote another book also about "the art of war," in which he stated:
"Debbe uno capitano, tra tutte l'altre sue azioni, con ogni arte ingegnarsi di dividere le forze del nimico, o col fargli sospetti i suoi uomini ne' quali confida, o con dargli cagione ch'egli abbia a separare le sue genti e, per questo, diventare più debole." The author was Niccolò Machiavelli, the text was libro sesto of Dell'arte della guerra. The Rihanh are far more familiar with such schemes than your people. It would be unwise -- even foolhardy -- to play games of this sort with Rihannsu.
Political Correctness? What are you prattling about? The idea of "Political Correctness" is a Terrhain concept; it has no relevance to the Rihannsu, and attempts to understand Rihan acts in terms of such a Terrhain notion are presumptuous, more of that Terrhain arrogance for which some of your species are notorious.
((You might want to go back and look at my posts in the several threads in the General Discussion forum about "Butterfly" before it happened, chum, before you continue this challenge, because you really don't know who you're talking to nor what she is on record as having stated. But context, as I have stated in those same threads, is important. Following orders is not. I would think your species had learned that lesson long ago ...))
No, Sela is not the cause for this, the Iconians are. Otherwise, why not just stop at capturing Sela? Why must the rest of her race, why must the rest of the GALAXY burn for what she did? Furthermore, did the Iconians forget that it was a Human (or Romulans in your case) that saved them? Why must the rest of the galaxy burn? WHY? Their most ardent defender was a Klingon, yet they mercilessly attack the first city, and order the Undine to destroy Qo'nos! Sela had NOTHING to do with it. This would be called on "Terrha" First degree murder. Because they were humiliated, just like you, and they swore that they would never be humbled again, because apparantly, just like you, they thought they were gods. No. They would have attacked anyway, Sela was AT MOST an excuse to target Romulus specifically, and why not blow it up beforehand? Hell, if they're so peaceful, why not just let the offense slide? They'll live much longer than Sela will anyhow! They will still have the last laugh! (so to speak)
As a matter of fact, an interesting hypothesis I just came up with actually means that Sela is more of a hero than we could ever imagine! My theory is, The Iconians lust for revenge against her was so great, they actually WAITED FOR HER TO BE BORN AND BECOME AN ADULT before they destroyed Romulus and attacked. Because Sela was born so far in the future, in that time, we actually gained the capability to fight back. We would not have been able to get the timeship if Sela hadn't been born when she did. because the Iconians had so much firepower, they might have attacked before the timeship blueprints could be completed, so we wouldn't be able to fight back, or win. We wouldn't have been able to save their magic 8-ball, or save the Iconians in the past.
If the Romulans are more familiar with the concepts than we lowly humans, who deserve nothing more than to bow and kiss the boots of our Romulan overlords, (who then ACTUALLY kiss the boots of the Iconians before they are turned into Elachi), than wouldn't it be natural to stab the Iconians in the back to save your own skins? You seem to do it to your own kind often enough.
Furthermore, if you're barking at me for putting out "Terrhain" concepts, (because they have no value to the almighty wisdom of the Rihannsu, (and you want re-unification with the Vulcans, how cute!)), than what reason other than arrogance, could you have to want and try and force Romulan ideals on this poor, lowly human, when it's our planet on the line?
FURTHERMORE, As stated before, without that magic 8-ball, we would have died. This is as close as we get to the Jem'hadar saying, "Victory is life". You're willing to let the Iconians WIN THE WAR for your "Honor". No, there is a point where one must put "Honor" aside and consider the actual consequences of your actions.
Talking from a strategic standpoint, without the magic 8-ball (say Sela shot and disintegrated it when she turned on the Iconians), is there any strategic or logical value is letting the Iconians escape? Because the Iconians will demand absolute proof that you are the "Others", We humans should know more than anyone (except the glory and majesty of the magnificent Rihannsu) that one person can resemble another without actually being that person, especially if those people were alive 200,000 years ago, they would have no reason to believe they were alive today. In the actual story you had the aforementioned magic 8-ball as a bargaining chip, and proof you were the "Others". What do you have now? Nothing. Tket will kill you, (especially if you're a Romulan) The fight will continue and you will lose, all life in the galaxy will either bow to the Iconians or die by their hand, and all because you let them escape.
why are we even arguing about this. Sela has plenty of other crimes that are worth more then enough for life in prison, so whether she is in the right or the wrong it doesn't matter. I understand why a lot of people hate her but I hope we can just forgets about all her crimes if she has a change of heart and leads the Empire to join the Republic and maybe she can become a follower of D'Tan or what I personally hope for and what would seem more likely if that did happen is she would become the leading political rival to D'Tan. Whatever happens I hope she is an active character in Season 11.