It all Started in the 30th century- Phillip J Frye became his own grandfather.. The Iconians were driven mad instantly by this temporal timefoolery.. That is all.
For our timeline to exist we need to go back in time and bombard Iconia, otherwise Iconians would be ruling the galaxy.
Except that's fine because we'd be using their technology, we'd know how it works, how to counter it, wo could then fight them as equals, in ending their reign we have basically doomed ourselves...
I'll do you one better. What if the Iconians from our galaxy actually have actually been living reasonably quiet and peacefully, doing whatever such an old species does. They've caught wind the the Iconians from the Andromeda galaxy are getting ready to come back to this one and aren't keen on living under their rule. Unable (or unwilling) to face them directly they've been quietly and carefully manipluting the Milky Way species, "training" them through conflicts with the Undine, the Borg, the Voth, the Vaadwuar, nudging them to form a coalition so when the Andromeda Iconians arrive someone is there to face them.
What if, just as the Andromeda Iconians have their servitors, WE are the servitors of the Milky Way Iconians and we just don't know it.
You may now adjust your tinfoil hat. :P
That sounds a bit like a mix between the whole Ancient/Ori relationship in Stargate and the Vorlon/Shadow relationship in Babylon 5.
Vorlon/Shadow relationship: Shadows start a big war every 1000 years because they believe that races can only grow through conflict. Vorlons don't like the chaos.
Ancient/Ori relationship: Originally started as a single species, but two different ideologies. Kinda like the Goa'uld and the Tok'ra but on a much bigger scale. The Ancients left their home galaxy and made a new home while the Ori grew stronger in their home galaxy and still want to destroy their wayward cousins somehow because they view them as a threat to their power.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff."
- The Doctor, Doctor Who "Blink"
"Time is a tangled web. Try not to dwell on all the loose ends."
- Nozdormu, Dragon Aspect of Time, in WoW
"Time isn't a straight line. It's more like a David Lynch movie. It's this wandering, meandering thing that just goes in all directions and if you're very lucky, by the end you'll see some boobies, and maybe some little people."
- Doctor Insano, To Boldly Flee
No, no, no. Haven't you ever listened to Captain Archer? Time is like a string where one end is birth and the other is the death. If you tie the ends together, it forms a loop. Then if you ball up the string then the days touch each other and you can leap from one point to another.
Just to throw a spanner in the works with this... Where is there any indication the Iconians are looking for 'revenge' on the present for events of the past?
Everything that I have seen is that they are merely a megalomaniacal race, who have it in their heads that the galaxy belongs to them, and that all existing races either bow down and serve, or be destroyed...
I did see someone mention Babylon 5... The entire Iconian back story just smacks of the Shadow War to me...
STO : The Iconians are a godlike race, with technology that is potentially millions of years ahead of the Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Delta Quadrants
B5 : The Shadows are a godlike race which possess technology that is millions of years head of all other races, bar one, The Vorlons;
STO : The Iconians are appear to be an almost semi-corporeal race
B5 : The Shadows exist in a different light spectrum making them virtually impossible to see with the naked eye, and giving them an almost semi-corporeal appearance when they can be detected;
STO : The Iconians believe themselves to be the rightful rulers of the galaxy
B5 : The Shadows believe their 'ideology' is the correct path for all sentient races and that it should be The Shadows who are the dominant force in the Galaxy
STO : Iconians defeated in a first war 200,000 years ago by a coalition of races
B5 : Shadows defeated in a first war 10,000 years ago by a coalition of races;
STO : Iconians retreat to another galaxy/subspace leaving remnants of their technology behind, apparently ready for their return;
B5: Shadows retreat to their homeworld, seeding the galaxy with ships and technology awaiting a time when they return;
STO : Iconians use Servitor races, some to test the Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Delta quadrant species, others to sow distrust and discord, even outright war, to keep the Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Delta Quadrants divided;
B5 : The Shadows use agents to sow distrust and discord amongst the existing races, even causing outright war to keep the galaxy divided;
STO : The Iconians use the genetically engineered neural parasites to covertly infiltrate and control key figures within the Alpha/Beta/Delta quadrants to sow discord, distrust and war;
B5 : The Shadows use genetically engineered parasitical creatures to covertly manipulate and control key figures within the galaxy to sow discord, distrust and war;
STO : The Iconians demand the complete destruction of the Remans by the Tal Shiar - Why? The Remans are one of the few races with Telekinetic abilities, which sets them apart from almost all others (my theory);
B5 : The Shadows greatest weakness is telepathic abilities, which interfere with the neural links of their vessels, making them vulnerable - The Shadows wiped out all known telepaths of one race during the first war
So far, the similarities in the background for the Iconians and The Shadows are remarkably similar...
So much so, I'm waiting for us to meet remnants of the 'old ones/first ones' who were responsible for destroying the Iconians during the first war, if not directly seeking them out (as was the case in Babylon 5) so that they then provide aid in the new war against the Iconians, as we simply have no chance of matching their technological advantage otherwise...
EDIT : remembered another similarity after the fact
Not sure it was that the Vorlons don't like chaos, but rather that the two species had two diametricly ideas on how best to shepherd the younger races. The Vorlons used the "instructor and guide" approach while the Shadows followed the "trial by fire" method. However after so many years of trying it they had both lost sight of the intended goal and we more caught up in trying to prove who was right. That was my take on it at least.
The Vorlons believed that (their specific brand of) structure and order was the way forward for the younger races...
The Shadows believed in an almost extreme-Darwinian notion that only the strongest of races should be nurtured and that strength comes from chaos and conflict...
The entire scenario was your typical order-vs-chaos argument, not good-vs-evil mind you which is a common misconception (the Vorlons did much evil to push their agenda of 'order'), just order-vs-chaos...
I've been thinking, the coalition that destroyed Iconians 200k year ago didn't leave a trace, and the iconians want revenge on the galaxy, but why would they want revenge if their enemies no longer exist?
THAT'S BECAUSE IT WAS US ALL ALONG! we went back in time, we were the coalition that fought the Iconians thousands of years ago, that's why they are back this precise moment, because they can't travel back in time, so they waited, now they are trying to have their revenge in the future, only that way it makes sense.
Why wouldn't they attack 400 years ago? when klingons and federation were basically powerless, they've been monitoring the galaxy since they left, why would they pick a fight against an unified coalition?
All their schemes, were not meant to create discord, the opposite, it was meant to unite the galaxy, one year ago the klingons and the federation were at war, chaos was rampant, why would they try to destabilize an already chaotic situation? all they had to do was invade, one year ago everyone was fighting everyone, and we didn't have access to the delta quadrant.
The Romulan republic exists thanks to the Iconians, the coalition exists thanks to the Iconians, the delta alliance exists thanks to the Iconians, we beat the borg thanks to the Iconians, without the gate to the delta quadrant the borg would still be able to launch attacks at us at will, no way to counter attack.
Quoting (sort of) the Prophet from "Crack in the Mirror:"
"The Other saved them. The Other will save them again."
Who is the Other?
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
an interesting idea... but also a bit flawed on one small bit.
If we were the Coalition, then it would have been easier for the Iconians to simply wipe out our worlds when we were all living in caves and using sticks and stone. One ship... one ship... could have wiped out the humans, the vulcans, the klingons, and the romulans thousands of years ago and still been thousands of years after they were beaten.
Simply put, they could have waited thousands of years after their defeat and still come back and wiped us out before any of us had warp drive, and had an easier job of it to
Oh I suppose someone could have been protecting us, but it's more likely that the Iconians aren't exactly mad at us. In fact we're more then likely a proxy target, and they're real target are those beings that are "protecting" us... like say the Preservers and the Q.
> Iconians attempt a power play on the galaxy 200,000 years prior to the events of STO. They are subsequently defeated by an unknown force at some point close to this time.
> 200,000 years later, Iconians return for vengeance. The powers of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants create the joint Delta Alliance as a response.
The next several seasons of the game will involve the Delta Alliance losing the war with the Iconians while attempting to locate the precise point in time when they should strike down the Iconians in the past, preventing the war in the future.
> Iconians attempt a power play on the galaxy 200,000 years prior to the events of STO. They are subsequently defeated by an unknown force at some point close to this time.
> 200,000 years later, Iconians return for vengeance. The powers of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants create the joint Delta Alliance as a response.
The next several seasons of the game will involve the Delta Alliance losing the war with the Iconians while attempting to locate the precise point in time when they should strike down the Iconians in the past, preventing the war in the future.
Which is kind of my point... even if it was us that went back in time 200,000 years ago and defeated it... what's to stop them from returning with a single ship 100,000 years ago and destroying Earth, Vulcan, and Qo'nos?
Unless somehow we were protecting ourselves this entire time and not leaving any clues that we were doing so in the process.
Which is kind of my point... even if it was us that went back in time 200,000 years ago and defeated it... what's to stop them from returning with a single ship 100,000 years ago and destroying Earth, Vulcan, and Qo'nos?
Unless somehow we were protecting ourselves this entire time and not leaving any clues that we were doing so in the process.
Iconians can't travel through time (as described in uneasy allies). Which makes us using time as a weapon kind of logical.
Ignorance is an obstacle not an excuse
Let the stupid suffer
An interesting theory, but the episode which introduced them did not seem to suggest anything of the sort. It did, however, neglect to mention any of the species which fought to stop them.
I'd favor the OPs suggestion only if whatever it is Cryptic comes up with is weak. As in, if they can't provide some depth to the Iconians beyond "right-wing imperialists," or if they can't do that without resorting to some left-wing "communism is the greatest form of government ever and citizens of communist countries love it" trope, which might be hard given how predisposed the IP is to worshiping the most heinous form of government humanity has ever devised.
The next several seasons of the game will involve the Delta Alliance losing the war with the Iconians while attempting to locate the precise point in time when they should strike down the Iconians in the past, preventing the war in the future.
That doesn't work. Their defeat in the past sets up the war in the future.
Defeating them in the past, again, wouldn't prevent their return, it would only ensure it.
It's better not to go too far down this line, beyond saying that it's interesting. There's way too high a risk of TRIBBLE it up, even if you can eliminate most/all of the paradoxes.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Iconians can't travel through time (as described in uneasy allies). Which makes us using time as a weapon kind of logical.
Here's the issue though.. unless we totally wipe them out... which we know isn't the case... they have 200,000 years to get their revenge... so unless we're going to time travel to every year they could possibly show up and fight them constantly... they can simply wait since 200,000 years ago they're already the peak and we're nothing.
Quoting (sort of) the Prophet from "Crack in the Mirror:"
"The Other saved them. The Other will save them again."
Who is the Other?
With the way the prophets call Sisko "The Sisko" I bet 5 GPL that "The Other" is our character, and our form of saving them is the spiritual "saving them from themselves" kind of saving.
It's certainly interesting that "The Other" is singular.
With the way the prophets call Sisko "The Sisko" I bet 5 GPL that "The Other" is our character, and our form of saving them is the spiritual "saving them from themselves" kind of saving.
It's certainly interesting that "The Other" is singular.
that wouldnt make any sense, when did our character save the iconians before? and if our character already knew how to save the iconians again, why has it taken this long to do such a thing? why not as soon as whispers about the iconians were mentioned?
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
In fact we're more then likely a proxy target, and they're real target are those beings that are "protecting" us... like say the Preservers and the Q.
I like this. I'd prefer if it's the Q. No need to keep overruling the IP by bringing yet another canonically extinct race back to life.
For what it's worth, I wonder if the Preservers could transcend into Q-like beings. I take their statement that any single lifeform is destined to extinction as canon fact. If they could and did transcend, and still went extinct despite that, then it serves to humanize the Q to a greater degree than the shows ever managed to, despite alluding to that fact.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
In my opinion, the Iconian as villains concepts doesn't make much sense. They were defeated 200,000 years ago, when most or all of the coalition races we're still primitive cultures. What motivation would they have to come back and kick butt now?
Don't get me wrong - they'll be fun to fight, but the underlying story just doesn't seem plausible.
Which feels better when you consider yourself the ultimate lifeform?
To choose which tiny empire/federation/republic in a disorganized galaxy at war you're going to destroy today until none is left?
Yeah, safe, but not really satisfying...
Or
To crush a massive alliance to utterly destroy their spirit and boast your supremacy?
Mmm, yes, it makes you feel like the god you are!
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the Iconian in Surface Tension appeared just to make sure a global alliance would be formed, instead of causing that by accident.
I'll do you one better. What if the Iconians from our galaxy actually have actually been living reasonably quiet and peacefully, doing whatever such an old species does. They've caught wind the the Iconians from the Andromeda galaxy are getting ready to come back to this one and aren't keen on living under their rule. Unable (or unwilling) to face them directly they've been quietly and carefully manipluting the Milky Way species, "training" them through conflicts with the Undine, the Borg, the Voth, the Vaadwuar, nudging them to form a coalition so when the Andromeda Iconians arrive someone is there to face them.
What if, just as the Andromeda Iconians have their servitors, WE are the servitors of the Milky Way Iconians and we just don't know it.
Which feels better when you consider yourself the ultimate lifeform?
To choose which tiny empire/federation/republic in a disorganized galaxy at war you're going to destroy today until none is left?
Yeah, safe, but not really satisfying...
Or
To crush a massive alliance to utterly destroy their spirit and boast your supremacy?
Mmm, yes, it makes you feel like the god you are!
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the Iconian in Surface Tension appeared just to make sure a global alliance would be formed, instead of causing that by accident.
that wouldnt make any sense, when did our character save the iconians before? and if our character already knew how to save the iconians again, why has it taken this long to do such a thing? why not as soon as whispers about the iconians were mentioned?
The logic is that because the character "saved them" 200,000 years ago, and the character "will save them" in the future (by travelling back in time 200,000 years) - the character doesn't have to know yet because from their position the doing of the action is still future even though the result of the action is in the past.
A.............................................................................B...............C
I...............................................................................I...???????...I
200k years ago.....................................................Now......Time travel.
B->C->A->B->C-B. Predestination paradox. ETA - I defined "Now" based on the reference point of the Prophets, since they made the statement being applied.
The Iconians are hardly the bad ones here. They just played theyr part. If they hadn't start the war, at the right time, when your tune was a comander of a specific ship, they wouldn't force the Coalition to build a time ship, to go back in time and save them. So when your tune says "This war should't happen", well, guess what, would it ho back in time to save them if it wasn't for the war? If it was a war they could win, would they use a time-ship? In the end, Sela was right, only different outcome was to kill them all.
Did you notice how even 200 thousand years ago, T'ket knew exactly who the Romulans were? Sela kills a few Iconians, and T'ket vows to destroy Romulus as retaliation. How else would she know about a civilization that had not yet come into existence?
At 200 thousand years ago, they would have still been the primitive cave-dwelling slack-jawed simian fore-bearers that would become eventually Vulcans.
So the only way Iconia would know about modern civilizations is if we were the ones travelling back in time to attack them.
I've been thinking, the coalition that destroyed Iconians 200k year ago didn't leave a trace, and the iconians want revenge on the galaxy, but why would they want revenge if their enemies no longer exist?
THAT'S BECAUSE IT WAS US ALL ALONG! we went back in time, we were the coalition that fought the Iconians thousands of years ago, that's why they are back this precise moment, because they can't travel back in time, so they waited, now they are trying to have their revenge in the future, only that way it makes sense.
Why wouldn't they attack 400 years ago? when klingons and federation were basically powerless, they've been monitoring the galaxy since they left, why would they pick a fight against an unified coalition?
All their schemes, were not meant to create discord, the opposite, it was meant to unite the galaxy, one year ago the klingons and the federation were at war, chaos was rampant, why would they try to destabilize an already chaotic situation? all they had to do was invade, one year ago everyone was fighting everyone, and we didn't have access to the delta quadrant.
The Romulan republic exists thanks to the Iconians, the coalition exists thanks to the Iconians, the delta alliance exists thanks to the Iconians, we beat the borg thanks to the Iconians, without the gate to the delta quadrant the borg would still be able to launch attacks at us at will, no way to counter attack.
it could just be a simple case of getting revenge on the descendants of their enemy and it could have been sparked off by the factions all coming together to defend the dyson sphere as the ancestors come together to battle the Iconians thousands of years in the past.
that seems a much simpler explanation then yet another time travel Predestination paradox.
remember occam's razor.
the simplest explanation is often the correct one.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
I've been thinking, the coalition that destroyed Iconians 200k year ago didn't leave a trace, and the iconians want revenge on the galaxy, but why would they want revenge if their enemies no longer exist?
THAT'S BECAUSE IT WAS US ALL ALONG! we went back in time, we were the coalition that fought the Iconians thousands of years ago, that's why they are back this precise moment, because they can't travel back in time, so they waited, now they are trying to have their revenge in the future, only that way it makes sense.
Why wouldn't they attack 400 years ago? when klingons and federation were basically powerless, they've been monitoring the galaxy since they left, why would they pick a fight against an unified coalition?
All their schemes, were not meant to create discord, the opposite, it was meant to unite the galaxy, one year ago the klingons and the federation were at war, chaos was rampant, why would they try to destabilize an already chaotic situation? all they had to do was invade, one year ago everyone was fighting everyone, and we didn't have access to the delta quadrant.
The Romulan republic exists thanks to the Iconians, the coalition exists thanks to the Iconians, the delta alliance exists thanks to the Iconians, we beat the borg thanks to the Iconians, without the gate to the delta quadrant the borg would still be able to launch attacks at us at will, no way to counter attack.
it could just be a simple case of getting revenge on the descendants of their enemy and it could have been sparked off by the factions all coming together to defend the dyson sphere as the ancestors come together to battle the Iconians thousands of years in the past.
that seems a much simpler explanation then yet another time travel Predestination paradox.
remember occam's razor.
the simplest explanation is often the correct one.
This thread is really old and it's been proven to be partially right.
Spoilers: In midnight you discover the Iconian war is a predestination paradox, Sela is the cause of the war and the war is the cause of Sela causing the war ad nauseam, we were sent back in time to kill all Iconians, but we saved them instead, Sela attacked the retreating Iconians to avenge Romulus, Killed one and injured L'mirem, T'ket promised to have revenge on the Romulans (huge plot hole because somehow T'ket knew Sela was Romulan 198.000 year before the foundation of Romulus, but whatever).
I've been thinking, the coalition that destroyed Iconians 200k year ago didn't leave a trace, and the iconians want revenge on the galaxy, but why would they want revenge if their enemies no longer exist?
THAT'S BECAUSE IT WAS US ALL ALONG! we went back in time, we were the coalition that fought the Iconians thousands of years ago, that's why they are back this precise moment, because they can't travel back in time, so they waited, now they are trying to have their revenge in the future, only that way it makes sense.
Why wouldn't they attack 400 years ago? when klingons and federation were basically powerless, they've been monitoring the galaxy since they left, why would they pick a fight against an unified coalition?
All their schemes, were not meant to create discord, the opposite, it was meant to unite the galaxy, one year ago the klingons and the federation were at war, chaos was rampant, why would they try to destabilize an already chaotic situation? all they had to do was invade, one year ago everyone was fighting everyone, and we didn't have access to the delta quadrant.
The Romulan republic exists thanks to the Iconians, the coalition exists thanks to the Iconians, the delta alliance exists thanks to the Iconians, we beat the borg thanks to the Iconians, without the gate to the delta quadrant the borg would still be able to launch attacks at us at will, no way to counter attack.
it could just be a simple case of getting revenge on the descendants of their enemy and it could have been sparked off by the factions all coming together to defend the dyson sphere as the ancestors come together to battle the Iconians thousands of years in the past.
that seems a much simpler explanation then yet another time travel Predestination paradox.
remember occam's razor.
the simplest explanation is often the correct one.
This thread is really old and it's been proven to be partially right.
Spoilers: In midnight you discover the Iconian war is a predestination paradox, Sela is the cause of the war and the war is the cause of Sela causing the war ad nauseam, we were sent back in time to kill all Iconians, but we saved them instead, Sela attacked the retreating Iconians to avenge Romulus, Killed one and injured L'mirem, T'ket promised to have revenge on the Romulans (huge plot hole because somehow T'ket knew Sela was Romulan 198.000 year before the foundation of Romulus, but whatever).
but do the iconians know that, if they did surely they would target Sela alone before she had a chance to become a threat to them in the past or present, and avid the war altogether.
they may not even realise it was the we in the past that went back in time to fight them or that sela in the past was actually from the future.
as they are unable to time travel themselves they may have no concept of the predestination paradox as such so that may not be why they started the war when they did.
I haven't really played the mission yet but I am just trying to resolve the inconsistency's that were pointed out in the opening post.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Comments
Except that's fine because we'd be using their technology, we'd know how it works, how to counter it, wo could then fight them as equals, in ending their reign we have basically doomed ourselves...
the Jenolan sphere is near tapped out or something like that
That sounds a bit like a mix between the whole Ancient/Ori relationship in Stargate and the Vorlon/Shadow relationship in Babylon 5.
Vorlon/Shadow relationship: Shadows start a big war every 1000 years because they believe that races can only grow through conflict. Vorlons don't like the chaos.
Ancient/Ori relationship: Originally started as a single species, but two different ideologies. Kinda like the Goa'uld and the Tok'ra but on a much bigger scale. The Ancients left their home galaxy and made a new home while the Ori grew stronger in their home galaxy and still want to destroy their wayward cousins somehow because they view them as a threat to their power.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
No, no, no. Haven't you ever listened to Captain Archer? Time is like a string where one end is birth and the other is the death. If you tie the ends together, it forms a loop. Then if you ball up the string then the days touch each other and you can leap from one point to another.
Just to throw a spanner in the works with this... Where is there any indication the Iconians are looking for 'revenge' on the present for events of the past?
Everything that I have seen is that they are merely a megalomaniacal race, who have it in their heads that the galaxy belongs to them, and that all existing races either bow down and serve, or be destroyed...
I did see someone mention Babylon 5... The entire Iconian back story just smacks of the Shadow War to me...
So far, the similarities in the background for the Iconians and The Shadows are remarkably similar...
So much so, I'm waiting for us to meet remnants of the 'old ones/first ones' who were responsible for destroying the Iconians during the first war, if not directly seeking them out (as was the case in Babylon 5) so that they then provide aid in the new war against the Iconians, as we simply have no chance of matching their technological advantage otherwise...
EDIT : remembered another similarity after the fact
The Vorlons believed that (their specific brand of) structure and order was the way forward for the younger races...
The Shadows believed in an almost extreme-Darwinian notion that only the strongest of races should be nurtured and that strength comes from chaos and conflict...
The entire scenario was your typical order-vs-chaos argument, not good-vs-evil mind you which is a common misconception (the Vorlons did much evil to push their agenda of 'order'), just order-vs-chaos...
Quoting (sort of) the Prophet from "Crack in the Mirror:"
"The Other saved them. The Other will save them again."
Who is the Other?
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
If we were the Coalition, then it would have been easier for the Iconians to simply wipe out our worlds when we were all living in caves and using sticks and stone. One ship... one ship... could have wiped out the humans, the vulcans, the klingons, and the romulans thousands of years ago and still been thousands of years after they were beaten.
Simply put, they could have waited thousands of years after their defeat and still come back and wiped us out before any of us had warp drive, and had an easier job of it to
Oh I suppose someone could have been protecting us, but it's more likely that the Iconians aren't exactly mad at us. In fact we're more then likely a proxy target, and they're real target are those beings that are "protecting" us... like say the Preservers and the Q.
> 200,000 years later, Iconians return for vengeance. The powers of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants create the joint Delta Alliance as a response.
The next several seasons of the game will involve the Delta Alliance losing the war with the Iconians while attempting to locate the precise point in time when they should strike down the Iconians in the past, preventing the war in the future.
Which is kind of my point... even if it was us that went back in time 200,000 years ago and defeated it... what's to stop them from returning with a single ship 100,000 years ago and destroying Earth, Vulcan, and Qo'nos?
Unless somehow we were protecting ourselves this entire time and not leaving any clues that we were doing so in the process.
Iconians can't travel through time (as described in uneasy allies). Which makes us using time as a weapon kind of logical.
Let the stupid suffer
I'd favor the OPs suggestion only if whatever it is Cryptic comes up with is weak. As in, if they can't provide some depth to the Iconians beyond "right-wing imperialists," or if they can't do that without resorting to some left-wing "communism is the greatest form of government ever and citizens of communist countries love it" trope, which might be hard given how predisposed the IP is to worshiping the most heinous form of government humanity has ever devised.
Maybe we'll time travel them all back to fight their ancestors.
Or maybe we'll time travel their ancestors into the future to fight their descendants, leaving a severely weakened Iconia to be defeated in the past.
That doesn't work. Their defeat in the past sets up the war in the future.
Defeating them in the past, again, wouldn't prevent their return, it would only ensure it.
It's better not to go too far down this line, beyond saying that it's interesting. There's way too high a risk of TRIBBLE it up, even if you can eliminate most/all of the paradoxes.
Here's the issue though.. unless we totally wipe them out... which we know isn't the case... they have 200,000 years to get their revenge... so unless we're going to time travel to every year they could possibly show up and fight them constantly... they can simply wait since 200,000 years ago they're already the peak and we're nothing.
With the way the prophets call Sisko "The Sisko" I bet 5 GPL that "The Other" is our character, and our form of saving them is the spiritual "saving them from themselves" kind of saving.
It's certainly interesting that "The Other" is singular.
if you watched ds9 you would of known to take into account the prophets form of communication is down right... cryptic
so i wouldnt know the answer who this other is or what they meant by "save" or "saved".
that wouldnt make any sense, when did our character save the iconians before? and if our character already knew how to save the iconians again, why has it taken this long to do such a thing? why not as soon as whispers about the iconians were mentioned?
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
For what it's worth, I wonder if the Preservers could transcend into Q-like beings. I take their statement that any single lifeform is destined to extinction as canon fact. If they could and did transcend, and still went extinct despite that, then it serves to humanize the Q to a greater degree than the shows ever managed to, despite alluding to that fact.
Which feels better when you consider yourself the ultimate lifeform?
To choose which tiny empire/federation/republic in a disorganized galaxy at war you're going to destroy today until none is left?
Yeah, safe, but not really satisfying...
Or
To crush a massive alliance to utterly destroy their spirit and boast your supremacy?
Mmm, yes, it makes you feel like the god you are!
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the Iconian in Surface Tension appeared just to make sure a global alliance would be formed, instead of causing that by accident.
a good idea
quite plausible, if we assume they have an ego
Practically a quote.
Edit - Oops. My mistake. themetalstickman already said that.
Defending The Galaxy By Breaking One Starfleet Regulation After The Next.
The logic is that because the character "saved them" 200,000 years ago, and the character "will save them" in the future (by travelling back in time 200,000 years) - the character doesn't have to know yet because from their position the doing of the action is still future even though the result of the action is in the past.
A.............................................................................B...............C
I...............................................................................I...???????...I
200k years ago.....................................................Now......Time travel.
B->C->A->B->C-B. Predestination paradox. ETA - I defined "Now" based on the reference point of the Prophets, since they made the statement being applied.
At 200 thousand years ago, they would have still been the primitive cave-dwelling slack-jawed simian fore-bearers that would become eventually Vulcans.
So the only way Iconia would know about modern civilizations is if we were the ones travelling back in time to attack them.
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it could just be a simple case of getting revenge on the descendants of their enemy and it could have been sparked off by the factions all coming together to defend the dyson sphere as the ancestors come together to battle the Iconians thousands of years in the past.
that seems a much simpler explanation then yet another time travel Predestination paradox.
remember occam's razor.
the simplest explanation is often the correct one.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
This thread is really old and it's been proven to be partially right.
Spoilers: In midnight you discover the Iconian war is a predestination paradox, Sela is the cause of the war and the war is the cause of Sela causing the war ad nauseam, we were sent back in time to kill all Iconians, but we saved them instead, Sela attacked the retreating Iconians to avenge Romulus, Killed one and injured L'mirem, T'ket promised to have revenge on the Romulans (huge plot hole because somehow T'ket knew Sela was Romulan 198.000 year before the foundation of Romulus, but whatever).
but do the iconians know that, if they did surely they would target Sela alone before she had a chance to become a threat to them in the past or present, and avid the war altogether.
they may not even realise it was the we in the past that went back in time to fight them or that sela in the past was actually from the future.
as they are unable to time travel themselves they may have no concept of the predestination paradox as such so that may not be why they started the war when they did.
I haven't really played the mission yet but I am just trying to resolve the inconsistency's that were pointed out in the opening post.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.