WARNING: this discussion contains spoilers, and this is an awesome plot so I basically order you to play midnight before reading this. this is you second and final spoiler warning.
Hello Everyone, my name is EpicNerd7 and I just finished the new featured episode midnight and I've got to say, there is no Star Trek tv episode, movie or anything that had me on the edge of my seat as this episode did. The creators of this episode did a fantastic job for the plot of this entire episode, I mean this is like movie quality plot it was very interesting that Sela's vengeance for the home world causes it in the first place.
Now here are my thoughts:
*when I saw the trailer for new dawn I thought we would just fight our way through to victory.
*When I was on Iconia I could bet we all didn't expect them to be peaceful. according to history they conquered the entire galaxy and were oppressive, until an alliance of races banded together to save themselves, like what happened to the vadwaur originally. But hey, history is written by the victors. Instead we see exactly the opposite on iconia, I honestly didn't expect shear jealousy to be the motivator for their destruction.
*When I was on Iconia I was expecting the story to go either 3 ways. first we would help them because they are kind but their dark secrets would be revealed. second, we would save them and when we did we would convince them that we are good people, explorers who were friendly. Third they would remember that humans, a klingon, and a romulan were helping them and weren't vengeful against them. but Then like any good story does, plot twist.
*I honestly don't think it would take millennia to change an iconian geniuses mind, when it took the one floating beside her about 1 min.
*so now what will happen, what will the Ionians do now that they have their civilization ball back?
this is a great story and I wish to hear your thoughts on the matter in the comments below.
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Comments
But the Iconians will have some serious self-contemplation to do now, especially after causing so much harm, and destroying their creators.
While I'm not defending her you got to admit that she's the one who saved our butts by bringing dominion reinforcements. And honestly I'm rather glad she didn't die for some heroic cause since that would be waaay better than what she actually deserves.
Look at it from this way, she's now in allied space so basically her sorry TRIBBLE is ours......
As for the rest, it was all really good. Honestly couldn't predict which route they'd go for the end. Though now we have a renegade iconian lunatic on the run who won't rest till the galaxy burns.
So is t'ket the main villain for S11 then or dropped for the next 2-3 years like the usual loose ends?
I found a railroad so narrow, a bird would be unable to stand on it. I keep finding my admiral working as a low-grade grunt, doing the chores for everybody.
I found, in essence, what happens when a writer paints himself into a corner. A forced solution that leaves a sour taste when you are used to sound narrative.
Of course, this is not a book nor a TV show. But while I could accept the "out of character" (and even applaud them: war, time incursion...) before the space battle, I am dissapointed that nothing happens off camera.
Small ways to increase the way this works? First, Captain Kagran could have produced small commentaries from the iconians and heralds "oh, the bothersome crazy hobo who things we are going to be killed". He was on Iconia for two weeks, and only observed and then played the role of good conscience to Sela's "bad influence"...
Second, "oh, I had not saw you clearly before" is not lazy, is borderline criminal. You cannot have the "predestined cycle" and the "time paradox" at the same time. IF the ending were planned beforehand, planting some small pointers here and there could be great. Sadly, given that we have to wait a month between episodes, the hints should have to be bigger than the usual, but hey, small lines change a lot. I mean, we killed a herald, close and personal, in the previous episode... And she never ever said the smallest hint she ever met us.
Third, I don't know about everyone else, but I'm sick and tired of Sela. I can understand some of the writers "love" pet characters (I can even bet one or two loved Sasha Vykos from the Old World of Darkness). Big surprise: Mary Sues are not loved, nor appreciated. Specially when there already is one (the Player, thank you). Sela broke her character by choosing a poor timing, acting alone, and then "let's all be friends" at San Francisco. Hell, make her beam a Jem'Hadar unit, attack the Heralds, kill the girl and provoke the warmongering Iconian.
Who, incidentally, knows she is Romulan (but not half-human...) without no one uttering a single word in that respect... and the Romulans NOT EXISTING 200.000 YEARS AGO. Changing "romulan" for "I will find your homeworld, and I will make you suffer real bad" would have been much better.
I am not amused, and I cannot think about enjoying the next rerruns. Even if I manage to open my overflown bag, and none of the items give me trouble like the tetryon omni beam (I can't place it on my T6 avenger... and it shares equipment restriction with the ancient AP omi, but that I don't think is bad).
What did you expect? This game's story isn't about player choice, and to my knowledge it never has been.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
I honestly was expecting him and the Defiant to get killed in the mission in a heroic sacrifice...
At least in the mission she seemed to realize what damage she had really done. I half-way expected her to shoot herself or something, but I guess that would be asking too much. But I think the writers might intend to send her on a different path now and be transformed by the realization that she doomed her own people with her actions. We'll see if it holds. I totally can understand people wanting to finally get what she deserves.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
You just lost your bet, because I did consider them to be peaceful, and later turned into what we know because of bitterness.
My thoughts?
It turns out I was right when I claimed that Iconians walked in the past, which I based on the recordings from Dewa III (Tier 5 Romulan Rep mission). All those who said that it was the game mechanic limitation, and I was wrong -- I have one thing to tell you: nah nah nah nah nah
I liked the episode, but one thing was a glaring hole: How did T'Ket know Sela was Romulan? Romulans wouldn't appear until 198,000 years in the future, and no one called her that for T'Ket to overhear, so how did she know?
And "Kurland here" had to TRIBBLE some haters off. I enjoyed that thought a lot
I also enjoyed saying "Oh, shut up, Sela!" at my monitor many, many times during playing the ep
I'll admit, I laughed.
And I like the fact that the episode pays homage to Picard's belief that the Iconians may not have been the evil conquerors of legend.
For a while there, it was like, wow his instincts are horrible.
Sela, yeah.
Kagran's an honourable warrior, however, and would not take pleasure in killing innocents no matter the circumstances. That old argument about a certain historical figure as a baby seems to apply. Except we see how the baby turns out, of course, which adds a certain gravitas to your decision to show compassion.
Compassion won the day. Not often we hear that with an STO episode.
Exotic spheres in 7 dimensions:
http://www.abelprize.no/c53720/binfil/download.php?tid=53742
Yea, good suggestion.
Yeah, I thought that was kinda weird, but I won't let it ruin the episode.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
I love that Picard was right (as if there was ever a doubt) and for all their power, and advancements, it turns out the Iconians are just as susceptible to trauma as anyone else. They actually are just as mortal and vulnerable in the end as the rest of us.
T'Khet and Sela are truly alike, you'd think they'd get along. OK T'Khet is more stubborn. A temporal cycle of hatred.
I do like that moment because with the weight of the war and the directive of the mission I had legitimately forgotten, but when Sela mentioned the other it was the lightbulb. "We're the other". Then the Kirkian meddling came in, the the Picardian nobility and idealism came back in, the Siskoan determination, and the Janewayesque adherence to Starfleet ideals (maybe reverse Kirk and Janeway depending on what point in their careers) and I just knew what was going to happen. I was hoping it would be a timeline change due to that knowing but then Sela...."she had to go and kick the Rock right in his million dollar jewels" had to go and TRIBBLE the pooch. Nice job genius. At least she was too shocked to argue when we took the heart from her.
I was a bit disappointed that we didn't go the full Picard and try to negotiate with M'Tara and L'Miren and tell them the truth of why we're here and what we were trying to prevent. Conversely on a level this nicely wraps up why the Iconians wanted to conquer us in the modern times versus the now gone species that actually attacked them. They knew Sela, and they didn't recognize us.
But it comes down to what L'Miren said. We gave them back what they lost. We returned to them...their civilization. We did right by them when we didn't have to. Our mission could've been a total success and we wouldn't have had this horrible war. But instead we did the right thing. And by doing the right thing. Solely for the sake of doing the right thing. We were awarded the only victory we ever wanted. The war is over. And we live to see the New Dawn. Being rewarded for doing the right thing. There's nothing more Star Trek than that. So today I've got Midnight (I assume the title refers to minutes to midnight) and over on Tor, Keith R.A. Decandido posted his rewatch of Devil in the Dark. It's a good Star Trek day for me.
I don't know.
Something happened in this episode that has never happened to Sela before. She grew a TRIBBLE conscience. She was bashed across the face with incontrovertible undeniable evidence that her Romulan Passion, foolish pride, and her cynical anger...were her own undoing. Sela is now living with the fact that she and she alone, in her unthinking need to act has finally hit something she can't weasel her way out of. She is the reason that Romulus, her beloved home world, is destroyed. No one but her. Every day no matter where she is when she looks in a mirror, in a pool of water, when she hears her own voice, she will have to reckon with the fact that she is responsible for the deaths of something like 16 billion Romulans. And the destitution, misery, and exploitation of the survivors. The Elachi attacks, everything. All her fault. Even more than Hakeev. Two fools of different reason.
As for her being free, I don't know. I half hope that her realization will lead her to turn herself in. I'm sure you could easily get a Republic Court to bring her up on charges. It seems impossible to actually hit her with a sufficient punishment based on the cataclysmic results of her actions. How do you charge someone with triggering the largest war in the known history of the galaxy? Would it just be enough to leave her in an interrogation cell with Tiaru for six hours with no recording devices?
On the other hand, unless the Dominion has granted her some kind of asylum out of nowhere, I doubt Tiaru is gonna let her get away again.
From the Doylist perspective, Denise Crosby wanted to do a Sela redemption arc. So what we've just seen is the moment where Sela discovers to her shock, in the immortal words of Lex Luthor....that, "she is the villain of the story.". So rather than karma houdini, this might be the start of her atonement arc.
Well her fulfilling her promise and bringing the freaking Dominion in for the clutch save was great. More importantly, it allowed Va'kel to say, "the Dominion, powers from all four quadrants fighting for common cause.... The Galaxy is united." That was beautiful no matter how brief. I was thinking that since the Dominion War required the three great powers of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, then the Iconian War would require all four. Nice of the Kobali to show up by the way. Too bad the Borg didn't jump in looking for payback. Now considering how many Unimatrices we've slagged (in the Beast Wars sense not the British sense), I would like confirmation that the Collective is no longer a power.
I didn't know either honestly. Sela seemed to be there to keep us on target, so I was thinking railroading, but then we ended up doing the right thing.
I don't know when we might see T'Khet again. I like how it set that up with how Iconians society is set up. Each Iconian basically has their own race of Heralds working for them. So instead of having to fight all the Iconians, we now face what? What twelfth of them? And now we don't know when she'll be back so we can rest a little since she's gone now. It's also nice to see some of the callbacks to the earlier arc. T'Khet sounds A LOT like the old Vaadwaur who were complaining about teachers and artists getting pods in their cryostasis farms.
I can appreciate that, but with rare exception this has never been a player choice based game. Doing that would've generated a divided timeline. A character who chooses to save the Iconians would get the current timeline and characters that choose to complete the mission as planned would get a revamped timeline with no Hobus Supernova or any of the other stuff that would basically be a hard reset of the entire storyline of this game. Including our characters.
I much prefer being railroaded down the single storyline than being given the illusion of choice or actual choice, and then getting hit in the face with a Mass Effect 3 ending.
This isn't a situation of them painting writing themselves into a corner as they told the story they wanted to tell from the beginning, right down to the reveal that the other is us.
I'll say it again, I was deeply please to see that Picard was right. I'm a little sad that Jean-Luc couldn't have been there with us. Patrick Stewart seems cool enough to "do it for the art" and stop by (fairly certain they can't afford his regular rate). I can dream can't I?
Congrats on predicting them walking, though it was logical, they have legs and are descendants of the First Humanoids.
Good catch on the Romulan thing. The only thing I can guess is that we all gave our info when that Herald checked us in, and Security Chief T'Khet read our profiles before we ran into her. Devs might want to add that in, it's not a hard plot hole to fix. Added bonus, we know Vulcans as a species existed back then, though I think Vulcan's name for themselves would be T'Khasian? Since she identified herself as a Romulan, the Iconians wouldn't destroy Vulcan first.
As for Sela's attitude, it was more like calm the TRIBBLE down girl, we're trying to work something out here. It never occurred to her that we could've stopped the war before it began.
Oh yeah and Kurland here was awesome. A little less awesome if he got destroyed.
You beat me to it, but yeah.
Her instincts were overridden by her rage.
I was quite satisfied. While killing your enemies in brutal fashion is always nice, living well...and in this case living at all, is in fact the best revenge.
The thought of us being the fleet that wiped out the Iconians had dawned on me too, they kind of spoiled that by having us pick our ground team before we even entered the portal.
On the subject of the World Heart, I was thinking at one point that we would destroy it and deny the Iconian's the technology they needed to form their forces. It turns out that it's the reason they were so militant. They had lost their entire civilization. All that was left was the technology they knew and the desire to protect themselves at all costs. Thanks a lot T'Khet. I'm curious if they had retained the World Heart, then would their civilization had continued progressing?
Kagran as the angel on our shoulder was quite refreshing. The feeling reminded me of Martok being in Worf's corner in that Dominion prison all those years ago. It was also useful that he was there for two weeks before we got there, so it wasn't just a flash opinion, he had had a decent amount of time to observe and meet and observe them.
There is of course a major difference with this baby though. This one wasn't a baby, but rather an adult before the trauma that turned them horrible. The baby of which you speak pretty much seemed to turn on the wrong path at every major turning point. The Iconians with no outside interference we a largely benevolent and generally responsible species. That were then punished severely for that responsible benevolence. It is a tragedy.
Speaking of which, I'm going to definitely play this mission on my Doctor Who-inspired Alt. Heck, in some of the Doctor Who Novels, The Doctor was apparently a reincarnation of a Time Lord known as "The Other."
N.C.C. 171867
Sovereign Class
Saint John Fleet Yard
"A Mari Usque Ad Mare"
I thought that making us tell T'Ket to focus on revenge was a bad move on the writer's part. Upon seeing that nothing else would work, my idealistic characters would have just left her there to die in battle. On the other hand, having her react so strongly to one person's betrayal confirms that T'Ket was always evil and only the magnitude of it changed over the eons.
I don't know if it was a good move to leave open the possibility that the player never intended to spare the Iconians, but was merely distracted when Sela acted first. It really illustrates how little control the player really had over the situation when they can potentially be congratulated as a hero when they merely lacked initiative as a villain.
L'Miren and the present day Iconians all got off too lightly. While I don't like Sela as a character or a villain, what she has done pales in comparison to their actions. We needed the option to point out that we saved them in the past because they weren't evil then, but that they can be called nothing else now, and then throw T'Ket's tantrum back in her face.
It was almost beautiful!
I liked the episode, easily the best of the Iconian Arc I'd say. Probably won't be their best episode, but definitely on the right end of the spectrum.
It was really nice to see everyone go back to the morals and foundations of the Federation, which everyone was so keen on ignoring in the past few episodes; would've like to see that played out a little more, just saying. And the battle at Earth was done really well. But most importantly, the ending lived up to the "Star Trek style ending" we were promised.
Still have a few nit-picky complaints. Mainly, what happens to Sela at the end? We literally leave her at Starfleet Academy (following a lackluster celebration, I might add). Is she going back to custody? And under who's banner would she be imprisoned? I'm really hoping I just accidentally skipped something there.
All in all, Cryptic delivered a good episode when they really needed to. That's the important thing.
I'll agree with you wholly on the bolded only. A more grandiose celebration would've been worthwhile. I would equate it to What you Leave Behind, of the ending was basically what happened on Cardassia and the treaty signing without the party in Vic's and the flashback sequence.
On the other hand it's basically "All Good Things". Where the grand end...was a poker game with the family.
Agreed on all points. It makes M'Tara's death all the sadder.
It's funny about this predestination paradox, as the Iconians due to their physiological nature remembered the other, but since we hadn't gone back in time yet, they shouldn't have known about the Other until we did the mission. Which proves that we always were going to go back in time. But M'Tara unlike L'Miren DID see us up close, but she still didn't recognize us.
I think that those options were there just for the characters who were actually far less savory then what a Starfleet Officer's response would be. Remember this is the same group of fans who want to play as Romulan Star Empire and/or straight Tal Shiar agents. So the devs basically accommodated as many possible alignments as possible in the choices.
Me personally on my main Fed, it was an evolving perspective. I was hoping to try to actively negotiate a peace accord, but when Sela jumped the gun, then it became clear how the war had started.
Got off too lightly? Moral superiority is irrelevant. They cannot be punished. This is an instance where we must swallow our bloody tears and press forward. Revenge? Justice? This is our victory. We reclaimed the peace. With the exception of T'Khet and her smaller independent forces, the Delta Alliance can sleep without fear of annihilation or subjugation while they rest.
You can't throw T'Khet's actions back in her face. You think she gives a damn about an intellectual debate? From her debate she's having a conversation with a verbose two year old monkey. From her perspective any intelligent conversation is laughable. You would need to convince her she's not god and instead is a vindictive psychopath before you could throw anything in her face.
By giving them the tools they needed to truly restore their civilization and home, remember according to L'Miren with the World Heart they could completely rebuild anywhere in a few years, we've basically given them the chance to return to who they were.
There is very little space between the available punishments, and they would have to submit. As this war has proven, we can't force them to do anything, across several timelines.
Fascinating enough, everyone has suffered in their own way. Sela killed a huge chunk of Iconians in the past and denying them the world heart to restore their civilization getting her revenge for the destruction of Romulus, and T'Khet got her revenge on Sela for killing her comrades by destroying Romulus.
Don't forget that L'Miren herself admitted without prompting that the war was a terrible mistake on all sides. Like the Gorn attack on Cestus III and the Horta, all parties were in their own way defending themselves, from their own perspective. Trying to assign blame and exact penance is only going to extend the conflict. I think it's best that we rebuild our homes and they rebuild theirs and maybe next time we meet, it will be in peace instead of killing each other.
When Sela starts her little shooting frenzy, have the NPC Kagren shout something like "you treacherous green-blooded Romulan"... that way it will be well within T'Ket's earshot and nobody will have any reason to question why the Iconians would know what a Romulan was 198,000 years before they existed.
...sorry had to get that out some how...
The only change is the colour.
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I don't say this episode was bad, not at all... but Cryptic, you can do even better. Think about it.
I like how flaws are highlighted (not the episode flaws - the 'Romulan' thing with T'Ket is easy to paper over, and I like the explanation why things have been so bad for the Romulans) - I mean other's flaws.
T'Ket's anger and pride to the point she was willing to let her people die to make her point. And that anger then got refocused on others when Sela doomed her species.
Sela's stubborn and consistent refusal to play nice with others and her consistent belief that what she is doing is right and an inability to consider other's viewpoints beyond manipulating them has been a big part of her arc (along with a tremendous desire to almost constantly want to punch her) Her not even saying anything when you take the World Heart when the sheer enormity of what she did hits her is a thing of beauty. Sela always says something.
And the Iconians flaw that highlights why they failed and what the strengths of the Federation (and through it, the Alliance) - they always consider the Whole, but do not consider others part of it - they are very exclusive, and don't consider how others react or hows the Iconians' actions will appear. The Federation is very inclusive and is more considering when one's reached the stars they have the social viewpoint to begin accepting others and are resiliant enough to begin absorbing other advanced technology. The Iconians never thought anyone would measure up.
Kagran making some of the same mistakes as before until finding his honor again was a nice point as well. I'd like him to stick around. I like the voice, admittedly, and he's got a different perspective than Worf or Ja'rod.
Also - I like the ending where it just... ends. Our time travel ends with the Iconians still stronger than the rest of the galaxy's military. All the concessions we got were theirs, hopefully given time they will make more proper restitution, but all we can do is give them space and hope, we aren't in the position to demand any concessions - there was no way this could be a victory at the point of a sword.
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But killing her...no. I want her to live with it. I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. Sisko wasn't just walking the path of the hero, he was walking the path of the messiah. His journey was different from ours. But Star Trek isn't about the sacrifice. It's about doing the right thing.
The sacrifice is what we didn't do. Our mission was to prevent any Iconians from escaping. If we had done that then we would've committed Genocide and killed all the Iconians. We would've completely averted the war. No Iconian War, no superpowered Vaadwaur, no Undine Invasion, no Klingon-Federation War, no Hobus Supernova (which hilariously would mean no JJ Trek), and it would've saved the Preservers/First Humanoids. Also no Night Terrors episode, no Conspiracy episode, no Silent Enemy episode. It would've saved untold lives. At the cost of one at that time innocent species, that it turns out were responding to Sela's inability to see past her own need for vengeance.
You cite, the phenomenal episode of "In the Pale Moonlight" which some cite as having a very anti-Trek message philosophically, but you ignore "What you Leave Behind" which reversed that by showing the same thing as this episode in even greater clarity. We had basically won the war, and in a few weeks the Founders bar Odo would be extinct. All we had to do was fight to the finish against the Dominion Fleet and see the annihilation of Cardassia. Instead Odo gave them the cure saved their species and negotiated a peace. The Female Founder accepted a prison term, and the galaxy accepted peace.
The price we paid was we did the right thing and we saved the Iconians and even though we didn't reverse the damage of the wars, we did win the peace. With the exception of T'Khet who is a known psycho, we have earned peace with the Iconians and preserved our civilizations and theirs. Because we did the right thing, instead of the efficient thing.
It's amazing and terrifying what it took to actually make Sela's conscience kick on. I wonder what Ambassador Picard would say about this.
On the subject of Sela and T'Khet they're very similar and two people who never should've met. I wonder just how much perverse pleasure T'Khet derived from manipulating the Romulans via Hakeev into destroying their homeworld and watching them tear each other apart in the aftermath.
All true. It's fascinating how in many ways, the Federation and the alliance is kind of who the Iconians were waiting for. It's also an interesting viewpoint to compare the Iconians to the Federation as how the First Humanoids would see them. The First Humanoids wanted everyone to join in brotherhood, since from their perspective all these species are brothers.
Kagran is awesome, he always seemed to want to work together and he was very adaptive for a Klingon willing to try any tactic, including diplomacy. We shouldn't forget it's the Klingon Defense Force. For all their talk of conquest, the Klingons just want to be safe like everyone else and he exemplifies that.
And the voice is excellent. I would imagine that a thousand years down the road when they've healed from what happened to them and what they did to others, that there will be another galaxy or Galaxies spanning crisis, and when things look hopeless L'Miren and the whole will suddenly appear out of nowhere with their fleets again, only this time to keep us from perishing in the night against an unstoppable foe. After all, we were friends once, we can be friends again. Frankly, we had a lot in common (speaking from a strictly Federation perspective.)
Feddie-bear really?
Anyway, I absolutely agree with your feelings on this, I have a Fed-Romulan and two Klingons in addition to my two Feds and I am pre-cringing at how the playthroughs with them are going to be. Before anyone said anything I was hoping for multiple dialogue options. I guess not. Though technically it's vague enough that Harry could be strictly talking about himself and Starfleet, but as a Starfleet officer he should be a good enough diplomat to speak specifically.
It's not like there' a great deal of dialogue that you would even need to add. A Klingon would say, "we have to reeavulate our ways as well. There is more than one road on the path of honor" A Romulan could say, "we can get back to building our new home."
Again, multiple factions with a single storyline is fine, but doing it without even considering the differences in dialogue is a bit weak.
Uneasy Allies, Blood of Ancients, and Time in a Bottle were okay, and arguably Delta Flight was tolerable... but that's only half the season. I miss the Breen arc. >.>
Anyway. Aside from the "how-did-she-know-Sela-was-Romulan" thing, I liked the writing... And refreshingly enough, none of the combat felt like I was just grinding through endless waves of mobs for hours; it all actually made a reasonable amount of sense. My main complaint is that the battle in Earth's orbit didn't have very good background scenery. Broken Circle, which was otherwise an abysmally bad episode, at least managed to get the background layering done slightly better... Hell, the last part of Devil's Choice back in the New Romulus expansion did larger-scale battle in a more memorable way, and without any of the newer tricks! Here there was nothing but an immersion-breaking loose ring of coloured lights and a bunch of enemies popping up...