they cant just cut the iconians out of the timeline , it would change too much , will all the people and ships that have died be restored back to life again , there would be no delta rising since we used the iconians dyson sphere's to go there , would we be back at the beginning , the klingon war , since there wouldn't be an alliance , would romulus be back since its destruction was instigated by the iconians , i doubt this rock could navigate through such a river of time removing the iconians but leaving everything else as it is .
The Klingon War was entirely caused by the Iconians as well. They provoked the Undine which provoked the Klingons and without Iconians, Romulus would be standing which is what provoked Klingon expansion.
Martok wouldn't have died at J'mpok's hands. Romulus would still be standing. Our captain in the tutorial would be back. We'd be back to being Lts. That's if things went well.
The fact that the next season centers on the ADMIRALTY system is a good clue that we're not going to win this war by changing history. Not exactly.
To my mind, the only way to minimize the weapon's risk if we MUST use it (a proposition I don't buy but I am going to follow it for the sake of argument) is to aim as small and as close to the current time as possible. Erasing the war is not an option. Erasing a RECENT strategic mistake is much more so. That's why precision strikes like erasing J'mpok or Kagran look "better" to me than trying to erase the Iconians or do anything else that would have repercussions so far back into the past.
You know, I remembered thinking the Delta Recruit thing was poorly utilized. Now I wonder: will we actually we the Recruit be sent back and his/her actions avert a strategic blunder that took place after we started playing the game, such as failing to download the Preserver archive, or messing around with the Mol'Rihan gateway (and getting the whole system stuck open)? Or our failure to negotiate with the Undine?
It would be kind of beautiful and dark to have J'mpok turn the weapon on himself. The perfect act of Klingon valor and he'll never set foot in Sto-vo-kor for it. It'd alter too much of the game though.
Oh man that would be epic. I can only dream.
That said, I think the alteration would be in ways we already know the devs want to go. Being faction-agnostic on missions becomes more realistic if the new timeline has Martok or perhaps his ideological successor Worf in power and Klingon culture MIGHT actually have a chance to advance instead of reverting to barbarism yet again..
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I just hope that after it's done, that the writers remove the Dyson Spheres and roll back the DR expansion. Since the Spheres were built by the Solenae at the behest of the Iconians.
Do you realize the bloody hell that would be raised by the player base if Cryptic pulled that stunt? You would essentially lose out on four Reputations, three Battlezones, at least one place to grind XP at and the motherlode of Dilithium grinding, not to mention the various locals for Foundry missions. All because "Oh, it's the Iconians', we can't have that there anymore."
TRIBBLE Tau Dewa grinding, $30 spaceships and a lackluster season - deciding to pull that stunt would certainly kill the game.
Do you realize the bloody hell that would be raised by the player base if Cryptic pulled that stunt?
I do yes, and of course I don't expect them to roll back DR because the Iconians are gone.
It was more sarcasm then anything else. I was pointing out the numerous flaws in logic that arise from the removal of the Iconians from all existence. The idea creates numerous plot holes that they will likely just go ahead and ignore.
Do you realize the bloody hell that would be raised by the player base if Cryptic pulled that stunt?
I do yes, and of course I don't expect them to roll back DR because the Iconians are gone.
It was more sarcasm then anything else. I was pointing out the numerous flaws in logic that arise from the removal of the Iconians from all existence. The idea creates numerous plot holes that they will likely just go ahead and ignore.
I still think that if the end result after all is said and done is that the Iconians are removed from existence, that doesn't explain the captain in the New Dawn trailer clearly remembering the Iconians and remembering the war. Somehow we will not end up with total erasure. I suspect either we do not use the weapon, or any removal will either be partial, or the effort will be so disastrous that we'll be forced to undo it.
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I still think that if the end result after all is said and done is that the Iconians are removed from existence, that doesn't explain the captain in the New Dawn trailer clearly remembering the Iconians and remembering the war.
If I remember correctly, I think that those that use the weapon can be shielded from it's effects so that they know what they have done. Still though, you have a good point, unless the person in the trailer was one of the people specifically that used the weapon and was under the temporal shielding, they would not remember any of it.
There are so many potential problems with this proposed story, that I am inclined to agree with you, I think we either end up not doing it, or at least partially reversing it.
....They are not actually working on a plan to commit genocide. The Krenim weapon could be used for that, sure, but that is not what they are actually trying to do. They are trying to find a way to win the war with time travel. They are not targeting a species for extinction....
Then I learned their weapon doesn’t just alter the timeline, it erases things from ever having existed! The Krenim don’t seem to care, but… it’s terrifying to a lot of people, with good reason.
Of course I could be wrong, yet it seems to me the weapon was constructed to "erase" the Iconians.
There is a Tales of War that discusses holodeck simulations on how to stop the destruction of Romulus (and their failure to do so.) It does not sound to me like they are targeting the Iconians for excinction.
IMO this whole fiddle with time thing stinks from a story standpoint. What was the point of building up the the alliances if ultimately together we couldn't defeat the Iconians?
To survive long enough to build the weapon?
And it could still end up being a red herring of a kind.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Thing is ... If we take yesr of hell as a blueprint.. Couldnt we just use the weapon and see what the results would be as we would be protected from the changes and if we didnt like the result just remove us from time?
Since we opened a parallel timeline we then would only delete us from that one, leaving the original one intact to basically try again?
As with Annorax cause he was removed from time as well but we still hear his name and he was still present at the end if the year of hell episode.
So it seems like the weapon just removes things from a specific timeline or to be even more precise it creates a new timeline on use just without the targeted object thats neing removed.
In this setup the quest for continuous tine manipulation as seen in the episode makes actually less sense but the upcoming episode may make more sense strangly enough.
I still think that if the end result after all is said and done is that the Iconians are removed from existence, that doesn't explain the captain in the New Dawn trailer clearly remembering the Iconians and remembering the war.
If I remember correctly, I think that those that use the weapon can be shielded from it's effects so that they know what they have done. Still though, you have a good point, unless the person in the trailer was one of the people specifically that used the weapon and was under the temporal shielding, they would not remember any of it.
There are so many potential problems with this proposed story, that I am inclined to agree with you, I think we either end up not doing it, or at least partially reversing it.
I actually think the Federation captain is the one whose ship you rescue in "Broken Circle." Although she has very generic features, there seems to me to be enough similarity to think that's who she is. So she is (in my estimation) a confirmed veteran of the Iconian front--who appears to have her memories intact. But unless she comes aboard the weapon ship, I'll consider that possible evidence that the time weapon does not go acording to plan.
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Depending on how you look at it, the ship is basically invincible. It cannot be damaged by weaponsfire while in temporal flux. Stands to reason that we could simply use it as a battering ram and ram ships to death.
Then however, the episode gave is the tid bit about the ship not being capable of more than warp 6. Because its mass would tear it apart.
So... can it ram things? Or mot?
Even if not: can the temporal weapon be used to mess with omega? Because if you remove omega.... No teleporting spheres, no superpowers. nada. Nothing. zilch.
I had to stop reading cause Valoreah's moralizing was really beginning to rankle.
Glad I could oblige. Don't suppose you ever really watched a single episode of Star Trek then?
I have, several times, can you name one where a captain faced a decision to kill the remaining 11 members of a race or almost certainly watch the Federation burn?
Depending on how you look at it, the ship is basically invincible. It cannot be damaged by weaponsfire while in temporal flux. Stands to reason that we could simply use it as a battering ram and ram ships to death.
Then however, the episode gave is the tid bit about the ship not being capable of more than warp 6. Because its mass would tear it apart.
So... can it ram things? Or mot?
Even if not: can the temporal weapon be used to mess with omega? Because if you remove omega.... No teleporting spheres, no superpowers. nada. Nothing. zilch.
food for thought.
That ship was specifically destroyed by Voyager ramming it, so...
Granted, the Temporal Core was disabled at that moment, so it wasn't in temporal flux, but if all it takes is the core being momentarily offline I wouldn't count on that as an invulnerability if the ship can be destroyed by being rammed in that moment of weakness.
I doubt targeting Omega particles specifically would help, since you would only remove the existence of the specific particles, more could always be generated. You could possibly even remove the generator(s), but more could be built. You would need to remove whoever came up with the concept of using the particles for that purpose to really slow things down.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
Depending on how you look at it, the ship is basically invincible. It cannot be damaged by weaponsfire while in temporal flux. Stands to reason that we could simply use it as a battering ram and ram ships to death.
Then however, the episode gave is the tid bit about the ship not being capable of more than warp 6. Because its mass would tear it apart.
So... can it ram things? Or mot?
Even if not: can the temporal weapon be used to mess with omega? Because if you remove omega.... No teleporting spheres, no superpowers. nada. Nothing. zilch.
food for thought.
That ship was specifically destroyed by Voyager ramming it, so...
After it was disabled from the inside...
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
I have, several times, can you name one where a captain faced a decision to kill the remaining 11 members of a race or almost certainly watch the Federation burn?
Don't get me wrong, if it were me, I'd have traveled back in time and nuked the Iconian homeworld from orbit before they even evolved. Problem solved. But annihilating a race, no matter how evil they are, isn't what the heroic Captains of Star Trek do, at least to me.
The Iconians are closer to the Son'a than the Ba'ku though. They're an already extinct race (unless Sela is communicating with a complete homeworld of Iconians, even if she's in contact with hundreds of males 11 females does not make a breeding population) barely hanging on out of spite and vengeance.
I have, several times, can you name one where a captain faced a decision to kill the remaining 11 members of a race or almost certainly watch the Federation burn?
It could have helped billions of people. But these billions were not in immediate danger of being killed or enslaved if the Baku didn't leave their world and the Federation didn't get access to their fountain of youth. (In fact, the fountain of youth would help pretty much not at all during the Dominion War, because dying from old age was not the problem the Federation was facing.)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Morality aside, use of the weapon is mostly risky, primarily to oneself, as the chance of getting it right are exceedingly small.
Why, that, and it's a hopelessly lame Deus Ex Machina device. But maybe still better than M'Tara committing suicide, after 200,000 years, for no apparent reason.
its not said that the alliance will use it against a species. that wouldt work, cause the iconians maybe had a part in our own uprising.
i suspect that all tests will lead to the fact we will have to kill one person from ever having existed. i wont spoiler here. but its pretty obvious. theres only one person that drew the attention of the iconians in the first place.
and who says, that the alliance wont decide to destroy the timemanipulating weapon afterwards? i yet see no problem, storywise. maybe we will get some missions that shows some time-manipulation failures. also i think from reading and playing, that the timemanipulation is already happening, while we did the last 3-5 FE missions. they kind of dont make sense otherwise.
It could have helped billions of people. But these billions were not in immediate danger of being killed or enslaved if the Baku didn't leave their world and the Federation didn't get access to their fountain of youth. (In fact, the fountain of youth would help pretty much not at all during the Dominion War, because dying from old age was not the problem the Federation was facing.)
So, if there are millions of people suffering and dying from an illness that the magic Baku rings could have cured, it's ok to let them suffer and die because the Federation wasn't in imminent danger?
There was a bit more to it than just a fountain of youth. Dougherty mentioned how an entire new area of Science would evolve from it, including healing people.
And the science will still evolve from it. Just because Captain Picard decided that it was not okay to resettle (or kill) the Baku so that giant collector could get to work doesn't mean the radiation can't be analyzed. It just means the shortcut was not taken.
But neither the Krenim Weapon or a potential Iconian genocide are considered "shortcuts" - they are seen as the only way to end the war, since all conventional means seem insufficient.
I say "seem", because we might still find a 3rd alternative. But currently, this isn't about shortcuts, like "hey, if we keep fighting, we will beat them eventually, but if we use this option, the war is over now". It's "If we keep fighting like now, they will beat us. If we use this option, we might have a chance."
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
With all the terrible writing already present in previous missions that's pretty irrelevant.
Chekhov's Guns happen all the time. Someone oughta revoke his carry license.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
"The Other saved them before, and the Other will save them again" .......or something like that.
Has everyone completely forgotten that?! I'm not a Delta Recruit and never have been, but I know that bit, and the temporal agents know something no one else does. It seems to imply that the Iconians are NOT, I repeat, NOT going extinct. Unless Cryptic/PWE just totally forgot that line, or made it irrelevant, in which case, shame on them.
The Iconians are closer to the Son'a than the Ba'ku though. They're an already extinct race (unless Sela is communicating with a complete homeworld of Iconians, even if she's in contact with hundreds of males 11 females does not make a breeding population) barely hanging on out of spite and vengeance.
Doesn't matter if it's only one. That doesn't make it the moral thing to do.
Maybe not, but the important thing here is that the people trying to actually end the war are more concerned with saving countless lives over preserving the Iconians as a species.
Will the galaxy be forever weakened by completely eradicating the Iconian species, yes, but far less than if the Iconians eradicate every other sentient species in the galaxy.
A useless example because it's quite a different situation. You could have come up with a better one - Hugh. I always thought Picard made a huge mistake then.
Comments
Oh man that would be epic. I can only dream.
That said, I think the alteration would be in ways we already know the devs want to go. Being faction-agnostic on missions becomes more realistic if the new timeline has Martok or perhaps his ideological successor Worf in power and Klingon culture MIGHT actually have a chance to advance instead of reverting to barbarism yet again..
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
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Do you realize the bloody hell that would be raised by the player base if Cryptic pulled that stunt? You would essentially lose out on four Reputations, three Battlezones, at least one place to grind XP at and the motherlode of Dilithium grinding, not to mention the various locals for Foundry missions. All because "Oh, it's the Iconians', we can't have that there anymore."
TRIBBLE Tau Dewa grinding, $30 spaceships and a lackluster season - deciding to pull that stunt would certainly kill the game.
I do yes, and of course I don't expect them to roll back DR because the Iconians are gone.
It was more sarcasm then anything else. I was pointing out the numerous flaws in logic that arise from the removal of the Iconians from all existence. The idea creates numerous plot holes that they will likely just go ahead and ignore.
I still think that if the end result after all is said and done is that the Iconians are removed from existence, that doesn't explain the captain in the New Dawn trailer clearly remembering the Iconians and remembering the war. Somehow we will not end up with total erasure. I suspect either we do not use the weapon, or any removal will either be partial, or the effort will be so disastrous that we'll be forced to undo it.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
If I remember correctly, I think that those that use the weapon can be shielded from it's effects so that they know what they have done. Still though, you have a good point, unless the person in the trailer was one of the people specifically that used the weapon and was under the temporal shielding, they would not remember any of it.
There are so many potential problems with this proposed story, that I am inclined to agree with you, I think we either end up not doing it, or at least partially reversing it.
To survive long enough to build the weapon?
And it could still end up being a red herring of a kind.
Since we opened a parallel timeline we then would only delete us from that one, leaving the original one intact to basically try again?
As with Annorax cause he was removed from time as well but we still hear his name and he was still present at the end if the year of hell episode.
So it seems like the weapon just removes things from a specific timeline or to be even more precise it creates a new timeline on use just without the targeted object thats neing removed.
In this setup the quest for continuous tine manipulation as seen in the episode makes actually less sense but the upcoming episode may make more sense strangly enough.
I actually think the Federation captain is the one whose ship you rescue in "Broken Circle." Although she has very generic features, there seems to me to be enough similarity to think that's who she is. So she is (in my estimation) a confirmed veteran of the Iconian front--who appears to have her memories intact. But unless she comes aboard the weapon ship, I'll consider that possible evidence that the time weapon does not go acording to plan.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Depending on how you look at it, the ship is basically invincible. It cannot be damaged by weaponsfire while in temporal flux. Stands to reason that we could simply use it as a battering ram and ram ships to death.
Then however, the episode gave is the tid bit about the ship not being capable of more than warp 6. Because its mass would tear it apart.
So... can it ram things? Or mot?
Even if not: can the temporal weapon be used to mess with omega? Because if you remove omega.... No teleporting spheres, no superpowers. nada. Nothing. zilch.
food for thought.
After all aint this fiction as in SCI FI MMO
Original STO beta tester.
I have, several times, can you name one where a captain faced a decision to kill the remaining 11 members of a race or almost certainly watch the Federation burn?
That ship was specifically destroyed by Voyager ramming it, so...
Granted, the Temporal Core was disabled at that moment, so it wasn't in temporal flux, but if all it takes is the core being momentarily offline I wouldn't count on that as an invulnerability if the ship can be destroyed by being rammed in that moment of weakness.
I doubt targeting Omega particles specifically would help, since you would only remove the existence of the specific particles, more could always be generated. You could possibly even remove the generator(s), but more could be built. You would need to remove whoever came up with the concept of using the particles for that purpose to really slow things down.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
After it was disabled from the inside...
The Iconians are closer to the Son'a than the Ba'ku though. They're an already extinct race (unless Sela is communicating with a complete homeworld of Iconians, even if she's in contact with hundreds of males 11 females does not make a breeding population) barely hanging on out of spite and vengeance.
Why, that, and it's a hopelessly lame Deus Ex Machina device. But maybe still better than M'Tara committing suicide, after 200,000 years, for no apparent reason.
i suspect that all tests will lead to the fact we will have to kill one person from ever having existed. i wont spoiler here. but its pretty obvious. theres only one person that drew the attention of the iconians in the first place.
and who says, that the alliance wont decide to destroy the timemanipulating weapon afterwards? i yet see no problem, storywise. maybe we will get some missions that shows some time-manipulation failures. also i think from reading and playing, that the timemanipulation is already happening, while we did the last 3-5 FE missions. they kind of dont make sense otherwise.
But neither the Krenim Weapon or a potential Iconian genocide are considered "shortcuts" - they are seen as the only way to end the war, since all conventional means seem insufficient.
I say "seem", because we might still find a 3rd alternative. But currently, this isn't about shortcuts, like "hey, if we keep fighting, we will beat them eventually, but if we use this option, the war is over now". It's "If we keep fighting like now, they will beat us. If we use this option, we might have a chance."
With all the terrible writing already present in previous missions that's pretty irrelevant.
Chekhov's Guns happen all the time. Someone oughta revoke his carry license.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Has everyone completely forgotten that?! I'm not a Delta Recruit and never have been, but I know that bit, and the temporal agents know something no one else does. It seems to imply that the Iconians are NOT, I repeat, NOT going extinct. Unless Cryptic/PWE just totally forgot that line, or made it irrelevant, in which case, shame on them.
Maybe not, but the important thing here is that the people trying to actually end the war are more concerned with saving countless lives over preserving the Iconians as a species.
Will the galaxy be forever weakened by completely eradicating the Iconian species, yes, but far less than if the Iconians eradicate every other sentient species in the galaxy.
A useless example because it's quite a different situation. You could have come up with a better one - Hugh. I always thought Picard made a huge mistake then.