It's no secret that a certain powerful member of Cryptic studios likes the current state of beams and cruisers but I'm hoping in this thread we can offer ideas for helping Escorts and possibly cannons as well for when said person comes to his senses or gets canned.
A big thing Cryptic have started is adding new mechanics to differentiate ship classes, science has Secondary Deflectors and sensor scan while cruisers have their commands. I like the idea of each one being tied to a piece of equipment so I'm hoping Cruisers can get Command relays, three types with one boosting two commands and a second boosting the other two and a third offering a balance. I would like something similar for Escorts.
It has been mentioned before, something along the lines of a targeting computer that offers unique bonus for escorts/destroyers. There would probably be three types, each one offering a specific bonus and an active ability.
Advanced Tactical Computer
- 15 Accuracy
- 7.5% Category 3 damage bonus
Grants the ability Strafing Run which automatically turns your ships nose toward the target and Fires all weapons automatically for up to ten seconds while maintaining your present course. Offers a substantial damage bonus but locks out all engineering and science abilities for the duration.
Advanced Precision Computer
- 10% shield penetration
- 10 Armor penetration
Grants ability Precision Assault that auto pilots your ship right behind the target and remains on its tail for up to ten seconds. Offers a substantial Accuracy and shield penetration bonus but locks out all engineering and science abilities for the duration.
Advanced Maneuvering Computer
- 25% bonus to flight speed, turn rate, inertia and defense
Grants active ability Serpentine which improves speed, defense and damage resistance as you weave back and forth to avoid enemy fire. You will retain the ability to use all bridge officer abilities and to fly your ship in any direction but turn rate will be reduced.
All active abilities have 60 second recharges and share cooldowns with Pilot Maneuvers and Barrel roll.
Escorts are meant to be fast and lethal and I think it makes sense for them to have access to special maneuvering abilities. My stats may be off but they are simply a rough draft, feel free to tone them down slightly but keep in mind they need to be useful and be counterbalanced against the benefits cruiser commands and SA offer.
The nice thing is that Lockbox, Lobi and C-Store ships can have special Deflectors, Comm relays and Targeting Computers that have unique stats like the one on the anniversary DSD for example. Special targeting computers might have a different active ability but can be used on any escort which would enhance the usefulness of those ships.
They might also have special or different bonus when equipped on Destroyers and Raiders. This way Raider flanking could be tied into this new equipment.
I was going to add bonus to the Targeting Computers that enhanced Cannons when used on Escorts. Like reducing damage drop-off range, but it wouldn't be enough to fix how completely TRIBBLE cannons have been so I think they need a seperate revamp/fix.
Feel free to discuss!
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I was trying to balance it against the tactical bonus but you may be right that it's unnecessary. It all depends on how big the bonus is when the ability is active I suppose.
Apples and Broccoli.
How new something is has no effect on how useful it is. The DSD were once new ships, I guess that means they used to be awesome...
Only with this we're referring to an entire class of ships that just aren't top notch unless you fly them like BFAW Cruisers which completely defeats the point.
The stats are passive, the active ability does something different.
Yes and now it's Cruisers online, I don't want Escorts to be OP again but I do want them to be balanced. I know that's a tall order but I'm asking it anyway.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Whatever the devs decide to do (if anything) it's cannons that need the help NOT escorts.
My 2c.
Your mostly correct, but escorts are the only ship class without a special gimmick so I do feel that one should be added like the one I mentioned above.
Interesting idea, maybe it could be added into the Maneuvering version of the Tactical computer.
Cannons do need some attention, Escorts do not, they're fine.
People think Escorts are somehow behind the curve just because they're harder to play. The 5 Tac Console, front facing Escorts are still the most powerful builds in the game, they're just harder to stay alive in because they trade survivability for damage.
People jump in an Escort, try to play it like a cruiser, blow up.. and claim they need to be buffed or 'fixed' when they don't. People will pile on me for saying it.. but so be it.. If you're finding your Escorts to be lacking, then the problem is in your build and play style.
Cryptic already gave you an incredibly powerful ship when they released the Pilot Escorts. If you can't make one of those viable then Escorts are just not for you. Escorts are in a great place, it's weapon types that need work. Escorts only fall behind when using Cannons, but that's true of all builds.
Perhaps (in addition to finally balancing out BFAW and CSV) the Devs could adjust the Max Power levels of ships per class:
(Listed in order of Weapons, Shields, Engines, Auxiliary)
Cruisers: 130, 140, 110, 120
Escorts: 140, 120, 130, 110
Science: 115, 130, 110, 140
Carrier: 110, 140, 115, 130
Shuttle: (use cruiser, escort, science based on shuttle role)
Edit: Forgot about Raptors, Destroyers, warbirds, and dreadnoughts.
Raptors: 145, 115, 135, 105
Destroyers: 135, 130, 120, 115
Warbird (Tac): 140, 125, 120, 115
Warbird (Eng): 125, 140, 110, 125
Warbird (Sci): 110, 135, 115, 140
Dreadnought: 135, 140, 105, 120
Note: The above numbers provide the same maximum combined power levels as they stand now, just rearranged to make ship classes more diverse.
The above numbers would not be the 15,50,100 power settings that players set, but rather the maximum allowed power levels. And with the above numbers, cuisers would be generally more durable, escorts would deal more damage, and science ships would have plenty of aux power for their space wizardry, Carriers would be as durable as cruisers but would lean toward aux instead of weapons.
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Thing is, you're not addressing the problem. Cruiser commands and secondary deflectors aren't what make escorts seem less shiny than at launch. At the base level, escorts are still superior. They still have massive advantages in the form of non-buffed DPS, a turn rate well beyond the competing classes (allowing for damage distribution across shield facing, and keeping an opponent's shield facing in your sights, making it both an offensive and defensive advantage) and a natural defense bonus absent in the other classes. Secondary deflectors and cruiser commands were introduced to help to bridge the gap.
And here's the thing... all of that is still true.
You know why they don't escorts seem so shiny anymore? Why isn't this still "Escorts Online"?
Because of Tactical Team and Beam: Fire at Will.
FaW has become the "right" answer to every question and it doesn't work with cannons. While it sucked for years, it was buffed to be an effective weapon against groups, and apply the same damage to single targets and have it accumulate on said target. When that happened it became the no-brainer power to spam at everything regardless of circumstance. Cannon superiority was effectively nullified even though they still do more base damage, and escorts are still able to concentrate them on specific shield facings better than other ships due to their speed and maneuverability. And that last part was effectively nullified by Tac Team making shield facings all but irrelevant. Doesn't matter if you can concentrate all of your fire on one shield facing and wear it down if the enemy can smash all of their shields instantly into whatever facing you're shooting at. And of course, doesn't matter if you can whip around hiding your damaged shields when you can do the same, since suddenly you don't have to.
These two abilities buffed into must-have status are what have decimated the ingrained abilities that made escorts superior.
So there's the problem.
If they nerf the ridiculous shield redistribution from Tac Team, or just change it to something else (after all, shields are science territory anyway, and tanking is supposed to be engineering territory, so giving essentially the best shield and tanking power to Tactical Team was a terrible idea to start with) then being able to maneuver becomes a massive advantage again.
Nerf Beam: Fire at Will, say by making it deal reduced damage the more times it hits the same target, thus making it so it isn't the right answer to every situation... and suddenly CRF and CSV, and by extension cannons and the ability to more effectively keep them on target, are worthwhile again.
Take those two abilities out of the mix, or make them balanced and escorts are golden again. You make them the single target spike damage kings they once were, and make their maneuverability an actual boon again.
While you could boost the base escort stats, or add base features... that's not where the problem lies. So what happens if Tac Team and FaW are fixed, so that they aren't must-haves anymore? Or what if other must-have abilities are released (probably in a lockbox or spec)? Well, suddenly the ingrained advantages of escorts that Tac Team and FaW have been minimizing aren't minimized anymore and you've just given them a bunch of shiny new abilities on top of that. So we end up back in "Escorts Online".
Better to fix the actual problems.
Escorts don't need a gimmick, just fly fast and hit hard, plenty of defense and DPS. The other two ship classes got gimmicks to hike their DPS to acceptable levels, not that I like all the DPS inflation.
Cannons did get some help in the form of those new batteries. That +50% accuracy battery pretty much ensures you'll always hit NPCs. Add in a [CtrD]x4 version, and pew pew die go all NPCs.
On a side note I would like to see a little more versatility in the bridge officer seats on the endgame escorts, a t6 defiant with a better engi seat would be cool just to reflect how O'Brien was a lot better engineer than his rank would reflect.
Escorts do have a gimmick that no Science Vessel, no Cruiser, no true Carrier (2 hangars) will ever possibly hope to match.
Bonus Defense - The ability to make attacks miss you outright. All ships can achieve Bonus Defense. Look it up in your character/ship info window, under "Stats" section and it should be above your hull & shield points. The higher the Bonus Defense you have, the more attacks miss you. It is IMHO, the first, most important "Layer Of Defense." If attacks do not hit you, that means your shields and hull are literally untouched. It means less repairs involved. It means far less strain on your or your teammates' repair abilities.
It is a built in "gimmick" that you do not toggle, do not have to slot. It is always there and it only requires you to move around. However, Escorts (which I lump Raiders with) can attain higher speeds and that means higher Bonus Defense. There is a soft cap of sorts but Non-Pilot Ship, Non-Warbird builds typically get in the 80-something. Pilot Ships and Romulans go much higher. Non-Escorts cannot achieve this level of Bonus Defense that Escorts can. You can see for yourself when you hop on any generic Escort, fly around and watch your Bonus Defense stats. Do the same with your favorite Cruiser, Science Vessel, Carrier. It goes nowhere what an Escort achieves. Bonus Defense is extremely effective in both PVP and PVE.
This is a very old school STO mechanic that Cryptic implemented specifically to buff Escorts years and years ago.
Bonus Defense is also involved with another gameplay term that nobody mentions these days in STO anymore. "Speed Tanking." All ships can do that. But Escorts in particular are excellent in it.
I really go in depth on it on a thread "A Question On Survivability" which was aimed by the OP about staying alive with the Pilot Ships' lower hulls. Keep in mind, Pilot Ships are ridiculously great in Bonus Defense, but all Escorts leave behind in the dust all other ship types in Bonus Defense. Combine that with 7 weapon slots (a rare few with 8 like Chel Grett, Nandi, Scimitar), Cmdr+ TAC stations, 5 TAC Consoles, a number of Escorts having LtCmdr+ ENG stations, with unmatched speed, inertia, turn rates... You have a strong combination.
I also want to bring up this piece of old STO history. STO used to be called "Escorts Online." Cryptic implemented Cruiser Commands and Secondary Deflectors to bring Cruisers and Science Vessels up to par with Escorts. Cannons have fallen out of favor because of mechanics now favoring Beams, and thus affecting any DHC/DC capable ship. But I do believe that Cannons will have their time in the sun again. They've been doing lots of cannon based traits, bonuses of late. The pendulum is going to swing back in the middle again.
Edit: For final emphasis, any strengthening of Cannons by Cryptic will be a stronger boost. Escorts as they are are fine enough.
My apologies I quoted you by accident, my post was directed to someone else.
Your pretty much on target, I do still think differentiation of ships types with more unique skills/equipment is a good concept that should be taken even further.
TT1 - 4 seconds
TT2 - 6 seconds
TT3 - 8 seconds
Problem solved.
This would affect escorts and anything like them which would include Raptors and Destroyers and maybe BOP's. Read more carefully next time.
So lets give them a huge damage boost or a huge defense boost? When they already have the highest defense bonus in the game? Want to make reciprocity proc all the time?
Escorts are fine...if anything needs some umph it's Sci ships!
so season 11 is what? Carriers or Science Ships Online?
Yes please. I want Carriers/Science Ships Online. Carriers at least need a few seasons of being OP
I mean who wants to fly a escort with cannons and learn how to dogfight, hit and run and alpha strike.because thats what escorts do. Hell no lets just take all the strengths of cruisers and science ships and give them to escorts, there we go fixed.
There is nothing wrong with escorts. They are still the most powerful class of ship in game.
Learn how to fly one rather than TRIBBLE about it needing a buff.
Now cannons maybe they do need a buff or again maybe its piloting issues where you don't have the security and lazy flying beams offer with the 250' firing arc where positioning to do damage isn't as difficult as a weapon with a 90' arc requiring you to fly with your nose pointing forward to do damage and get maximum benefit out of them.
I will agree about cannons having a huge drop off in potency with range but then the Defiants quad cannons were always used at close quarters.
Only thing they require is power drain should be on par with beams.
The idea was, because they are the prime users of dual cannons besides battle cruisers, and suffer greater drop off from range using cannons, than they should gain an increased defense for moving in closer to their targets making them harder to hit!
For instance in this video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-P6L5JGf24
This would work in part, with the aquired trait that grants increased dmg, at close range as well!
And, might be good reasoning, for using that piloting spec shield scraping as well!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I can't remember the last time I saw an escort flown by elite DPS players for practical purposes. Not that I put much stock in the opinions of those morally bankrupt individuals. Destroyers are a different matter because they have cruiser-like qualities.
The entire point of an Escort is to use Cannons and those are horrifically broken, but escorts themselves could do with some minor additions. Namely the unique class ability/equipment I listed above. You will notice I never once mentioned giving them ANYTHING even close to what science ships and cruisers have but instead a completely different and new mechanic to make them different. Every other class of ship can do an escorts job better than an escort. Even Exotic damage builds on science ships are more effective than DHC's.
Perhaps if you'd spent more time in preschool learning about reading comprehension rather than sniffing glue you would understand that.
*eye roll*
Perhaps if you'd spent more time in preschool learning about reading comprehension rather than sniffing glue you would understand that.
*eye roll*[/quote]
Oh dear we have lowered ourselves to the lowest denominator "insults"