I dunno, if someone has a choice that goes: if I don't use it I'll die. If I do use it something terrible MIGHT happen.... A lot of people would roll the dice.
They probably would. But then, you just stated the counter argument as well. If I don't use it "ill" die. Or, let's expand that: we all might die. Here. Now. It's living at this moment. But what about the billions before us that might get wiped out if we did use it? Or the trillions of other races that might never have existed because of ours not being around?
The latest tales of the war says it well, it's survival vs morality.
I dunno, if someone has a choice that goes: if I don't use it I'll die. If I do use it something terrible MIGHT happen.... A lot of people would roll the dice.
So, when threatened we throw all our ethics and morality out of the airlock and use something we dont understand, which -albeit unknown for the ingame characters- didnt even work right in the first trial, even though the crew had a lovely 200 years to get it right?
I mean, we are not talking about one captain -who got a free ticket from headquarters, albeit only for half the way- emplyoing a spy and going the renegade way. We are talking about the whole headstaff, and all personal involved in this encounter to try it. And when using the weapon, it must be right, else you can only reset your mistakes by destroying the ship. You cant bring back something that never existed, unless you are friends with Q. If it doesnt hit the target or your calculations were off, there is no turning back, except destroying the ship for a reset.
You dont even have to recite how many times it would break with the prime and temporal directive. Its just a stupid, highly unethical procedure in the first place.
Maybe the Iconians know exactly what's going on with the Krenim weapon project and are about to make it fail. How do they know? Bluegil infiltrators in the Federation. Because the Federation SUCKS in its internal security.
- Bluegil infiltration v1.0 in TNG
- Changeling infiltration. DS9.
- Species 8472 infiltration in STO, ignoring the warnings of your then-ally, the Klingons. And even AFTER it became known there are 8472 infiltrators, doing nothing about it but bury heads in the sand.
- Bluegil infiltration v2.0, VanZyl in "Uneasy Allies" is exposed as being infested by a Bluegil. Makes one wonder.
With the info the Iconians have, just when the ship is completing, they're going to rush in and debo the weapon from the Alliance
and it also turns out that the iconians were specifically focusing on military targets to start with as they wanted to put us in our place, exert pressure on us, and force their rule upon us, now that may be far from ideal, but that isn't the total extermination everyone seems to think they are hell bent on, well, it wasn't the extermination they were hell bent on.. that just highlights how much bigger our error was with M'Tara. this was definitely something our captains should have been clearly told at the start of the campaign proper, that knowledge alone could have resulted in us having an alternative dialogue with her, and gaining an alternative result from that episode. this does make the decision even more complicated though.. because it isn't about life and death, it isn't (or wasn't) them and us, it is (was) about being ruled over by them versus the risk who knows what with that weapon.. the plot, riddled with holes at it is, thickens
I think when Iconian or the herald sphere gets wiped out, it will be revealed that way back when the Iconians had stopped a greater threat, which would now be back and ruling the galaxy.
hat just highlights how much bigger our error was with M'Tara. this was definitely something our captains should have been clearly told at the start of the campaign proper, that knowledge alone could have resulted in us having an alternative dialogue with her, and gaining an alternative result from that episode.
This is not how STO-Trek works. I remember the mission on the elachi base -albeit that was a romulan mission- "Hey, they dont look like soldiers" *fires weapon*.
Thats how STO works, slow to think, quick on the trigger. STO isnt about idealistic crews of starship exploring the galaxy. Its about homocidal maniacs on their quest to increase their bodycount.
Or to say it with Garak: "Come now Admiral, don't tell me you'd object to a little genocide in the name of self defense!"
THAT is STO in a can.
hat just highlights how much bigger our error was with M'Tara. this was definitely something our captains should have been clearly told at the start of the campaign proper, that knowledge alone could have resulted in us having an alternative dialogue with her, and gaining an alternative result from that episode.
This is not how STO-Trek works. I remember the mission on the elachi base -albeit that was a romulan mission- "Hey, they dont look like soldiers" *fires weapon*.
Thats how STO works, slow to think, quick on the trigger. STO isnt about idealistic crews of starship exploring the galaxy. Its about homocidal maniacs on their quest to increase their bodycount.
Or to say it with Garak: "Come now Admiral, don't tell me you'd object to a little genocide in the name of self defense!"
THAT is STO in a can.
i can actually hear Garok delivering that line lol... now change it too "come now Mon Capitan, don't tell me your kind would object to a little genocide in the name of progress!"
satire aside, what you say is sadly true, even though many would prefer it wasn't so.
and it also turns out that the iconians were specifically focusing on military targets to start with as they wanted to put us in our place, exert pressure on us, and force their rule upon us, now that may be far from ideal, but that isn't the total extermination everyone seems to think they are hell bent on, well, it wasn't the extermination they were hell bent on.. that just highlights how much bigger our error was with M'Tara. this was definitely something our captains should have been clearly told at the start of the campaign proper, that knowledge alone could have resulted in us having an alternative dialogue with her, and gaining an alternative result from that episode. this does make the decision even more complicated though.. because it isn't about life and death, it isn't (or wasn't) them and us, it is (was) about being ruled over by them versus the risk who knows what with that weapon.. the plot, riddled with holes at it is, thickens
So the entire RSE was a military target? Because that was their first attempt to do anything to the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, so far as we know, as I have shown you from the database in "Sphere of Influence," where it refers to "survivors of Romulan extermination," by which they meant Hobus. They INTENDED to wipe out every man, woman, and child, military or civilian, in the entire Romulan Star Empire. Failing that, they tried AGAIN with Elachi. And failing that, they tried yet again with their destabilization of the New Romulus Gateway. So yeah, three times they've tried to commit genocide against the Romulans and Remans. The same database says they plan to exterminate all life in the Sol system, and either get the Klingons to be their servitors or else exterminate them as well.
And yet you think they're just misunderstood and we should play nice with them. How nauseating.
I mentioned this in one of the other threads on this topic...
The "responsible" way (if any such thing can exist) is to aim to erase something from the timeline that doesn't cause genocide and leaves the timeline as intact as possible. Perhaps some lifeless planets that the Iconians needed for staging areas or physical resources. Setting the Iconians back 30-50 years from their goals puts them far past the lifetime of STO and doesn't remove any plot important races from canon.
I assume we are actually heading towards some sort of temporal fustercluck, but hey, they still have rational options... Just saying...
Has anybody thought about just luring the Iconians to the Gateway system, kicking them thru to some prehistoric time, and let their amnesiac minds wander about for a few millennia?
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Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
I mentioned this in one of the other threads on this topic...
The "responsible" way (if any such thing can exist) is to aim to erase something from the timeline that doesn't cause genocide and leaves the timeline as intact as possible. Perhaps some lifeless planets that the Iconians needed for staging areas or physical resources. Setting the Iconians back 30-50 years from their goals puts them far past the lifetime of STO and doesn't remove any plot important races from canon.
I assume we are actually heading towards some sort of temporal fustercluck, but hey, they still have rational options... Just saying...
Has anybody thought about just luring the Iconians to the Gateway system, kicking them thru to some prehistoric time, and let their amnesiac minds wander about for a few millennia?
Well, that is one thing that Annorax used it for. Granted he also wiped out several whole races, but some of those might have been accidents.... The biggest example of why erasing a race is a bad idea came from his first use of the weapon. He intentionally erased the enemy empire, but accidentally ruined the Krenim in the process.
I assume we are actually heading towards some sort of temporal fustercluck, but hey, they still have rational options... Just saying...
Actually, they don't. Say you set the iconians back sufficiently that the war doesn't happen, or doesn't become a crisis. Say they don't have the resources to stage an elaborate proxy war using the Vaadwuar, Elachii, duped Undine, ect. The AQ/BQ powers have no reason then to come together to form an alliance. Well and good, the Iconians get defeated using solo conventional tactics. Everyone wins right? Well, no because what happens next (ex. borg, sphere builders, andromedans, ect.) may also require an alliance of AQ/BQ powers. Alternatively what happens next may be a massive, self-destructive, conventional war.
Basically for the weapon to work you need to find a target that defeats the iconians but in such a way that the main points of STO history don't change. So in other words you need to weaken them just enough for another, potent, conventional solution with a progressive effect on AQ/BQ politics to work.
Why don't we just look for that other solution? We're going to need to find it anyway under a "temporal mechanics arent going to massively backfire" scenario, and if it'll work with a slightly weakened iconian threat then it'll probably work with a slightly stronger threat too (it doesn't look like from future FED history that us not dying is chancy, its got to be historically probable [insert morals of Foundation series here].)
And by that I don't mean "why don't the writers find another solution" because I'm sure they have one (they've made sure the bad ideas look bad from the start and prove to be so through in-game events). What I mean is why don't our characters or an upcoming guest star find the solution that everyone with their deus-ex machina fixation isn't bothering to look for?
Anyone BTW notice that a "type 6" female skin type option just snuck in with the second-to-last update? It doesn't look finished, it definitely hasn't been used for any existing NPC, and its definitely playing towards an older female look.
What the hell has Janeway been up to? :P (just some idle speculation, I know Kate Mulgrew was ruled out for "cost" reasons earlier but with the entire TRIBBLE cast minus two signed on peer pressure might have become a factor worth considering. And hey if she's willing to do dragon age inquisition for an entirely contrived cameo then "Admiral Janeway, galactic savior!" might be worth the few peanuts cryptic can scrape out of the cafeteria.)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
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One might be inclined to speculate that the target would be something inside the Herald sphere. If we leave the Heralds in a state similar to the Solanae, then that means less Iconian troops.
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They probably would. But then, you just stated the counter argument as well. If I don't use it "ill" die. Or, let's expand that: we all might die. Here. Now. It's living at this moment. But what about the billions before us that might get wiped out if we did use it? Or the trillions of other races that might never have existed because of ours not being around?
The latest tales of the war says it well, it's survival vs morality.
So, when threatened we throw all our ethics and morality out of the airlock and use something we dont understand, which -albeit unknown for the ingame characters- didnt even work right in the first trial, even though the crew had a lovely 200 years to get it right?
I mean, we are not talking about one captain -who got a free ticket from headquarters, albeit only for half the way- emplyoing a spy and going the renegade way. We are talking about the whole headstaff, and all personal involved in this encounter to try it. And when using the weapon, it must be right, else you can only reset your mistakes by destroying the ship. You cant bring back something that never existed, unless you are friends with Q. If it doesnt hit the target or your calculations were off, there is no turning back, except destroying the ship for a reset.
You dont even have to recite how many times it would break with the prime and temporal directive. Its just a stupid, highly unethical procedure in the first place.
- Bluegil infiltration v1.0 in TNG
- Changeling infiltration. DS9.
- Species 8472 infiltration in STO, ignoring the warnings of your then-ally, the Klingons. And even AFTER it became known there are 8472 infiltrators, doing nothing about it but bury heads in the sand.
- Bluegil infiltration v2.0, VanZyl in "Uneasy Allies" is exposed as being infested by a Bluegil. Makes one wonder.
With the info the Iconians have, just when the ship is completing, they're going to rush in and debo the weapon from the Alliance
This is not how STO-Trek works. I remember the mission on the elachi base -albeit that was a romulan mission- "Hey, they dont look like soldiers" *fires weapon*.
Thats how STO works, slow to think, quick on the trigger. STO isnt about idealistic crews of starship exploring the galaxy. Its about homocidal maniacs on their quest to increase their bodycount.
Or to say it with Garak: "Come now Admiral, don't tell me you'd object to a little genocide in the name of self defense!"
THAT is STO in a can.
satire aside, what you say is sadly true, even though many would prefer it wasn't so.
So the entire RSE was a military target? Because that was their first attempt to do anything to the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, so far as we know, as I have shown you from the database in "Sphere of Influence," where it refers to "survivors of Romulan extermination," by which they meant Hobus. They INTENDED to wipe out every man, woman, and child, military or civilian, in the entire Romulan Star Empire. Failing that, they tried AGAIN with Elachi. And failing that, they tried yet again with their destabilization of the New Romulus Gateway. So yeah, three times they've tried to commit genocide against the Romulans and Remans. The same database says they plan to exterminate all life in the Sol system, and either get the Klingons to be their servitors or else exterminate them as well.
And yet you think they're just misunderstood and we should play nice with them. How nauseating.
The "responsible" way (if any such thing can exist) is to aim to erase something from the timeline that doesn't cause genocide and leaves the timeline as intact as possible. Perhaps some lifeless planets that the Iconians needed for staging areas or physical resources. Setting the Iconians back 30-50 years from their goals puts them far past the lifetime of STO and doesn't remove any plot important races from canon.
I assume we are actually heading towards some sort of temporal fustercluck, but hey, they still have rational options... Just saying...
Has anybody thought about just luring the Iconians to the Gateway system, kicking them thru to some prehistoric time, and let their amnesiac minds wander about for a few millennia?
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
My character Tsin'xing
Actually, they don't. Say you set the iconians back sufficiently that the war doesn't happen, or doesn't become a crisis. Say they don't have the resources to stage an elaborate proxy war using the Vaadwuar, Elachii, duped Undine, ect. The AQ/BQ powers have no reason then to come together to form an alliance. Well and good, the Iconians get defeated using solo conventional tactics. Everyone wins right? Well, no because what happens next (ex. borg, sphere builders, andromedans, ect.) may also require an alliance of AQ/BQ powers. Alternatively what happens next may be a massive, self-destructive, conventional war.
Basically for the weapon to work you need to find a target that defeats the iconians but in such a way that the main points of STO history don't change. So in other words you need to weaken them just enough for another, potent, conventional solution with a progressive effect on AQ/BQ politics to work.
Why don't we just look for that other solution? We're going to need to find it anyway under a "temporal mechanics arent going to massively backfire" scenario, and if it'll work with a slightly weakened iconian threat then it'll probably work with a slightly stronger threat too (it doesn't look like from future FED history that us not dying is chancy, its got to be historically probable [insert morals of Foundation series here].)
And by that I don't mean "why don't the writers find another solution" because I'm sure they have one (they've made sure the bad ideas look bad from the start and prove to be so through in-game events). What I mean is why don't our characters or an upcoming guest star find the solution that everyone with their deus-ex machina fixation isn't bothering to look for?
Anyone BTW notice that a "type 6" female skin type option just snuck in with the second-to-last update? It doesn't look finished, it definitely hasn't been used for any existing NPC, and its definitely playing towards an older female look.
What the hell has Janeway been up to? :P (just some idle speculation, I know Kate Mulgrew was ruled out for "cost" reasons earlier but with the entire TRIBBLE cast minus two signed on peer pressure might have become a factor worth considering. And hey if she's willing to do dragon age inquisition for an entirely contrived cameo then "Admiral Janeway, galactic savior!" might be worth the few peanuts cryptic can scrape out of the cafeteria.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
My character Tsin'xing