Though saying that, like others have already said, where are the cardassians, delta allies (especially benthans and kobali), and undine? Even ferengi mercs could bought.
I have doubts the Undine are even involved at all, but I could be wrong. But the rest - I would suspect that most of them don't have big fleets available, and use theirs to protect their home world and colonies.
Actually... In one of the Delta missions we go back to fluidic space to talk to the Undine about the Iconians. So they DO know at least the basics of what the Iconians are doing.
If I remember Sela's transmissions right, the Gamma Quadrant is relatively quiet -- also, think back to Sphere of Influence: the intel you gather says that the Iconians watch the Dominion closely and they don't plan to attack them until the Alpha and Beta quadrants are firmly in their control.
But I bet their agents are there too, hampering Sela's efforts to gather allies.
"Ad astra audacter eamus in alis fidelium."
-
"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
What's happening in the Gamma quadrant? Are the Dominion forces fighting the Iconians too, or is the war against the galaxy really just against half of it? I might have missed something in one of the missions ... does anyone mention it?
According to their own story the dominion knows of them but are not getting involved in a fight against them. If you talk to that one vorta that lets you ask about the issue back from when the dominion FE's came out he pretty much tells you we are cool right now but don't think for a second we would get involved against them.
As well the way this story goes and canon goes I'll yet give a few more examples of why removing iconians from timeline in a common sense fashion wouldn't solve the problem just create millions if not more problems. First they were the first children of the preservers. Which is the basic building block of all the humanoids that exist in the present. Then take in consideration the tactics and how jem hadar, vorta, changlings interact was discovered and most likely what gave the edge in the dominion war but without the iconians creating that gate that they went on a co-op mission with that event would never take place. As well you have to think about all these races that stood up to the iconians just one of them could take their place as the evil overlord of the galaxy lol. Cut off the head with a time weapon and a billion more will grow. It was just not well thought out and too generically bold plot to go off of that as well ended enterprise prematurely due to the fact its a bad idea especially in sci fi shows to go off on temporal geneocide lol.
According to their own story the dominion knows of them but are not getting involved in a fight against them. If you talk to that one vorta that lets you ask about the issue back from when the dominion FE's came out he pretty much tells you we are cool right now but don't think for a second we would get involved against them.
except the final transmission from sela on gaining T5 iconian rep reveals the heralds are currently attacking the dominion; they're involved whether they want to be or not
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
she doesn't outright say it, but the iconians wouldn't be sending their elite forces on a simple search-and-capture/terminate mission, and none of the heralds seem like a very diplomatic type
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
yeah - I agree with the conspicuous lack of other races from the delta alliance and the gamma quadrant. In one mission into the Sphere we get to see Worf comment "Do the Iconians reach extend even into the Gamma quadrant?" _ clearly it does , as we were staring at a Gamma quadrant world! But that world was a servitor world, I believe. Why would the Iconians mess with an area they control? Yes. - the Dominion don't like being bossed around by solids, after all what happens when two sets of "gods" claim the same turf?, so we can expect friction in the Gamma quadrant.
As for the time weapon - there are complications (understatement). As A certain doctor in a blue box has already pointed out, some points in time are fixed and cannot be changed. In this instance, the Iconians cannot be simply erased or turned into good guys. Without the Iconian interference, the Undine would not have made incursions into our space, save to kick Borg butt. Without the Iconians putting a gate on Hobus there would be no subspace supernova when it went "boom!" and subsequently no destruction of romulus, and no legacy of Romulus storyline. Without the Iconian interference with the bluegill controlled Vaadwaar, there would be no unifying threat to form the delta alliance. and so on...
Whether we like it or not, the Iconian interference is a fixed event. If we use the time weapon to remove them or their plans to retake the galaxy, we also remove the entire STO storyline.
(of course, if we aim the time beam at the STO story writers, well...that's another story altogether! LOL!)
I tend to agree with the majority of the crowd......what we need to do is bring the Undine into the fight on our side. Comparing the situation to that of the Dominion War, we have one advantage on our side: We have actual proof that the Iconians were pulling all of the strings in the background. Perhaps it's time for Admiral Janeway to step back into the light and reaffirm her resolve among the Delta Quadrant species. Above all....the one species that is threatened by this as well is the Borg. If we are to survive, then we may have to make a deal with the devil........
You know - just to throw some paranoia into the mass destruction surrounding the "Broken Circle". Did anyone else notice how unconcerned the Krenim are with diddling around with fate via time manipulation? Did anyone who wasn't a Betazed notice the hostility and resistance from the Krenim leader at the conference table? Did anyone else notice that the one trait that all Krenim duty officers share is "Unscrupulous"?
Did we (and I stare at Captain Nog when I say this) really think this through when we unexpectedly allied ourselves with the Krenim? Let's face it, if they can hide a planet from us, what else could they be hiding?
As Julius Caesar once said: "Et tu, Brutus?"
i'll tell you what i noticed...the attitude of that krenim captain in the timeline where the imperium was in overall power during the first part of Year of Hell - he threatened to execute the entire voyager crew just for a simple tresspass
granted, the attitude of one man is never indicative of the entire race (unless it's a hive mind), but still...
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
[SNIP]
Without the Iconians putting a gate on Hobus there would be no subspace supernova when it went "boom!" and subsequently no destruction of romulus, and no legacy of Romulus storyline. Without the Iconian interference with the bluegill controlled Vaadwaar, there would be no unifying threat to form the delta alliance. and so on...
Whether we like it or not, the Iconian interference is a fixed event. If we use the time weapon to remove them or their plans to retake the galaxy, we also remove the entire STO storyline.
(of course, if we aim the time beam at the STO story writers, well...that's another story altogether! LOL!)
So time-zapping the Iconians means Tovan Khev gets erased, too? That's a sweet bonus! [*"accidentally" fires Temporal Weapon*]
Seriously, though, it's starting to look more and more that the Temporal Weapon will be used (and will make things worse), that our Alliance will wind up being the original Alliance of 200,000 years ago, and that the Player Character will turn out to be "The Other" who saves the Iconians and undoes all the nastiness.
Then it's milk and cookies time for everybody - just in time for Q's Winter Wonderland! Nog's Nog all around!
After the attack on the Herald Sphere, the Alliance is left broken and struggling. With the overwhelming odds against them, there are questions of morality and what lines shouldn't be crossed.
"There's one. On this side of it, we ain't TRIBBLE."
^_~
All jokes aside, to quote Worf, "Death to the opposition!"
I think that happened after a temporal incursion that restored them to ~95-96% of their former power. That was only achieved once. After Annorax's ship went *poof* they were left in an already weakened (and humbled?) state, easy prey for enemies like the Nihydron and the Zahl -- and then the Vaadwaur arrived.
Annorax spent all that time to restore the Imperium, including the home of him and his wife: Kyana Prime. And now that the Vaadwaur are through with them, only Kyana Prime is left (and maybe some other small isolated colonies?)
Talk about irony... ^^
Would they become arrogant and aggressive if they get their Imperium back? Hard to tell, but yeah they want their end of the bargain too: to erase their war with the Vaadwaur, and that might have some negative effects. No Vaadwaur, no stasis pods for the Kobali for example.
"Ad astra audacter eamus in alis fidelium."
-
"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
My vote is: Cross the Muckin' line! As my prime Bajoran Captain would say, "The Prime Directive is merely a guideline to help you make the right choice". I think if this were real, I'd rather take the chance at survival in another timeline, even if it were at some greatly reduced state, than face certain doom in this one.
Which is what I suspect will happen in this arc... time will be gravely altered and we have to find a way to set it straight like the Krenim did. Which was one awesome Voyager episode I have to say. They didn't have many, but for the few jewels, it was worth coming back every week.
"The Prime Directive is merely a guideline to help make the right choice" -Vn'dor Phail, Capt :: sneezes :: Why is it no-one dusts the bridge on Starfleet vessels?" -Emsil Marat, Glinn "We can not interfere in the progression of one's life" -Richard Lynch, LtCdr
We threw what we could at that Herald Sphere. Our armada was torn to pieces, we only have a few available ships left, while the rest of our forces are tied down defending civilian targets.
In the meantime, Sela is trying to gather allies to get her revenge for the Star Empire, and for her time in Iconian prison.
Now what if...
... Sela does come back with allies. A mighty fleet that is capable of doing the job. In the meantime, the Alliance has no choice but to cut corners, and rush to finish the Krenim weapon in time. In the final battle, the weapon is launched, but misfires. Sending us, and Sela's armada back 200,000 years.
There you are with what remaining ships you have, and all you tried to do was to win a war.
And there's Sela with her armada, her vengeance, and Iconia within her reach.
"The Whole will shatter and I will be there to see it." - I think Sela says something like that.
"The attack on Iconia broke our unity [...] we cannot risk any more loss." - M'Tara
My idea is that the one who blew Iconia to Kingdom Come was Sela. And the remaining Iconians are alive thanks to us, because we saw the genocide and did our best to negate the damage.
And after the fall of the Iconian homeworld, the enslaved races threw down their chains and rose up against an Iconian Empire that is left without leadership.
How does that sound?
"Ad astra audacter eamus in alis fidelium."
-
"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
We threw what we could at that Herald Sphere. Our armada was torn to pieces, we only have a few available ships left, while the rest of our forces are tied down defending civilian targets.
In the meantime, Sela is trying to gather allies to get her revenge for the Star Empire, and for her time in Iconian prison.
Now what if...
... Sela does come back with allies. A mighty fleet that is capable of doing the job. In the meantime, the Alliance has no choice but to cut corners, and rush to finish the Krenim weapon in time. In the final battle, the weapon is launched, but misfires. Sending us, and Sela's armada back 200,000 years.
There you are with what remaining ships you have, and all you tried to do was to win a war.
And there's Sela with her armada, her vengeance, and Iconia within her reach.
"The Whole will shatter and I will be there to see it." - I think Sela says something like that.
"The attack on Iconia broke our unity [...] we cannot risk any more loss." - M'Tara
My idea is that the one who blew Iconia to Kingdom Come was Sela. And the remaining Iconians are alive thanks to us, because we saw the genocide and did our best to negate the damage.
And after the fall of the Iconian homeworld, the enslaved races threw down their chains and rose up against an Iconian Empire that is left without leadership.
How does that sound?
...you know, that kinda does make some sense - it would certainly explain away why the iconians tried to wipe out the romulans by tricking taris into destroying hobus, a star that was conveniently in the middle of ROMULAN territory
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
The crews of the Alliance ships, hoping to maintain the timeline's integrity, do not reveal their identity to the Iconians they save. I'm guessing here's where we would become known to the surviving Iconians as this enigmatic and almost revered "The Other" (either our character or our ships as a whole).
In the meantime, Sela and her armada is torn to pieces by the Heralds that rush to the burning (and beyond saving) Iconian capital.
And after learning all that, our job is to get back to the present using the time ship (or a bit earlier), and get the Iconians to stand down, because they are fighting the very people who saved them.
Post edited by kelettes on
"Ad astra audacter eamus in alis fidelium."
-
"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
When more than a third of your fleet is either destroyed or disabled?
Hmmm, so how come that the Alliance supposedly gathered all its available forces, but 2/3 of the fleet are still operational - not even disabled - after what previously is pictured like a major defeat ?
All the ships you can muster != All the ships you have.
The remaining 2/3rds were most likely guarding key systems and sectors and could not be deployed. Some of them might have been simply too far away to get to Kyana in time.
What about the Breen, Dominion or Eldex's Vaadwuar? No love for the iconians there.
We know from Sphere of Influence that the Iconians don't want to attack the Dominion as long as Alpha and Beta have not been thoroughly subjugated.
Apparrently, they consider the Dominion as too powerfull for a two-front war.
wanted to reply to this much earlier in the day, but with that security issue firefox keeps bringing up... anyway.
there is missing detail that would fill in that tale of war more complete, an admiral is mentioned but its not mentioned who, it would explain alot for example if it was quinn mentioned in that tale.
this is a case where section 31 and temporal agents could be a major boon, section 31 would do anything to save the federation from its enemies, they dont care about morality, nothing is too extreme for section 31. where the federation reap that knowledge, so does the romulans and klingons.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
wanted to reply to this much earlier in the day, but with that security issue firefox keeps bringing up... anyway.
there is missing detail that would fill in that tale of war more complete, an admiral is mentioned but its not mentioned who, it would explain alot for example if it was quinn mentioned in that tale.
this is a case where section 31 and temporal agents could be a major boon, section 31 would do anything to save the federation from its enemies, they dont care about morality, nothing is too extreme for section 31. where the federation reap that knowledge, so does the romulans and klingons.
uh, i beg to differ...my main character is a section 31 operative, and he finds the idea of using that ship abhorrent - mainly because it is far more likely that any use of it will end up WIPING OUT the federation as opposed to saving it
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
In the after action report meeting between of the Federation, Klingon and Romulan Command officers' on the killing of the Iconian Leader M'Tara.
Dahar Master K'Mohr brought up a story told to him by one of his descendant that was member of Klingon Security and that he transmitted the plans of the Genesis Device. Which brought about the Genesis Nonproliferation Treaty in the year 2285 between the major Alpha and Beta quadrant powers, that forbade the use of the Genesis Technology as a war weapon.
He also had another story told by Ambassador Worf about a Star fleet vessel, the USS Pegasus that was testing a prototype cloaking device that phase through solid matter while cloak in 2318 in violation to the Treaty of Algeron.
Dahar Master K'Mohr has ask the House of Pegh to get the plans for the Genesis Device but needs someone from the Federation to get the plans for the Prototype Cloaking device that the USS Pegasus used and someone from the Romulan Republic for a ship they can spare.
Since he has a plan needs the Genesis Device on a automated ship with Phase Cloaking to destroy the Heralds' fleets in the Iconian Sphere from the inside.
But in case that fails, he needs a group to go to the Guardian planet to ask the Guardian some questions about the "Other" that the Iconians' mention while they were out of phased on the Krenim moon. To find who, where and when the "Other" can be found and use that as leverage against the Iconians.
Since many Captains in the Klingon, Federation and Romulan Republic are not so incline to use the Krenim Temporal weapon.
I'm sure everyone has covered these ideas and then some, but I do believe that only so far the "Alliance" (RR, FED, and KDF) have participated into battles with the Iconian and/or their servitor races/cat spawns. Yet out of these conflicts, every civilization has been threaten, attacked unprovoked, or could benefit from a victory against the Iconian and their allies.
Most of the Delta Quadrant was affected in some way by the introduction of the Vaadwaur threat and also from the attacks by the Undine, again all orchestrated by the Iconian. So why are not the Voth joining the Allies; for the Voth had to fight the Undine over the Spire and also provide protection for their allies like the Turei against the Vaadwaur threat. Also, after forming many alliances in the Delta Expansion, you'd think that some would actually play a bigger part. The Bethan’s, Ocampa, Kobali, Hazari, Cooperative to name a few.
Here is a thought, I would have the Kobali in ships at the rear, so every person we lost, they could bring back with their technology and we would never run out of personnel. The Bethan’s would fight, because they believe in upholding Justice/much like the Judge Dredd’s of the STO World. The (FED, RR, and KDF) could setup bounties against the Iconian and that would bring in the races such as the Hazari and Kazon. The (FED, RR, and KDF) could also work out a deal with the Cooperative to allow all assimilation of Iconian technology/races for their amusement and mutual benefit.
Heck, since we are losing the war so badly, I would give that same appeal for the Collective, send Seven of Nine in there to negotiate with the Queen a type of assimilation pact with the Borg just like the Cooperative. Show the Borg that the Iconian still exist, and they would be on it fast to add them (Iconian) to their "Perfection". I would also point out to the Borg too, that well if you like assimilating civilizations, hard to do that if the Iconian destroy them all. Simple supply and demand issue there, the Borg wouldn't need too much calculations to figure that one out.
I would also send in representative from RR to the Romulan Star Empire to negotiate with the aid of Sela supporters a Coup d'état against the Tal Shiar and gain the Imperial Forces as an Ally as well, especially after what occurred to their Empress at the hands of the Tal Shiar and their Iconian Supporters. Give the Imperials all data we have on the Hobas disaster and events afterwards, when negotiation starts. Also have the RR bring in with the Imperials the Hirogen allies too...they love to hunt big game, well Iconian could definitely fit right into that category. They would join in a heartbeat.
I would also, after this last incursion, send all representatives to the Tholian Assembly to negotiate time/travel interventions with that aided already in part from the Krenim. I think, no that the Iconian deliberately destroyed their personnel on New Romulus, they too would be ticked off and eager for some payback. So that could would a double edged sword...both time traveling/influencing powers working together to create weapons or paradoxes against the Iconian threat. I would use the help of temporal agencies in this matter as well, which we already know the FED, RR, and KDF have personnel who have used time altering methods before. Again though Prime Directive goes out window on that one, coupled with the Kremin "Super Weapon", but we are running out of time...and now people/planets.
Also I would send Tuvok into to again negotiate with the Undine "Brain" ship that took out Undine Dr. Cooper. Again share all intelligence, materials, and data etc. we have on the Iconian incursion into their space and the subsequent attacks of artificial ships etc., they too would join in to get revenge. For they would know, once our galaxy was rendered asunder they too would be next.
I would work out all trade negotiations too with every trading civilization known in STO, such as the Ferengi, Syndicate, and Trade Unions etc., as well as Dominion traders from Gamma Quadrant, allowing for all materials or trade routes to be established and free plundering/profiteering of Iconian tech. That might work for them.
I would set into action a misdirection plan with the crew "aka the player" to go covert into Dominion space and seek out Odo, Eraun, Loris, and the Female Founder we set free facility 4028. I know in a previous mission the Dominion stated they would have no part of fighting the Iconian, but maybe talking to the people mentioned above might do the trick; negotiate a deal or at least ask a favor...heck beg, since we again are at the end of our ropes. I would also again show them all the data information we have from mission Sphere of Influence where the Iconian are noted for spying on and describing what they would do to the Dominion forces. Show that threat as being immanent, if the current Allies lose, and yet again, we may pull out another potential faction to attack the Iconian.
Last plan to try out is...far fetch; well probably as far-fetched as I have already ranted about, but try using all stop gaps. For instance, using graviton pulses to communicate with any more Crystal Entities that are out there...since many have shown up on STO and from the TNT. Help them understand that we can give them the most delicious amount of energy and bio-life forms to absorb in that of the Iconian and their allies, shoot the energy factor alone might entice the Entity to come join the fray. Tractor beam it to the Iconian Gateway in space large enough for ships etc. from the mission Sphere of Influence and set the Gateway for the Iconian Super Sphere...then let it do its handy work. I would also depending if they are alive, use Picard or Siskco to contact "Q" and ask him for a favor, as both have worked with him in the past and both have aided him when he too was mortal etc. Maybe showing him what the Iconian did to the Preserves might push him to act, or at least speak to the Continuum on behave of the suffering worlds. Besides, what would "Q" do if he has no more fun times playing with humans and their emotions, once we're all extinct. Might try that route with him.
I figure with all of these and the numerous other ones, many have talked about with more clarity, sources, and knowledge...I think STO could make many great game play from these ramblings and have the largest, grandest, game end play ever if we had all of these powers working together. I could imagine the current Allies on the brink, literally down to the last remaining worlds and fleets, then...if all or some of these going to plan...the Iconian receive the biggest whooping the galaxy has seen. I mean sheesh the Tholian/Kremin time travel and weapons, Collective/Cooperative assimilation, Kobali clean-up crews, Voth, Turei, new friendly Vaadwaur after their leaders were found to be puppets of Iconian via brain bugs (attacking the subspace to destroy Elachi and Solanae), Undine planet killer weapons, Hirogen hunting parties, Dominion Jem'Hadar crack troops (literally, ketracel-white), Imperial/RR joining forces, traders/pirates, mercenaries all alike fighting for plunder, Delta Alliance actually joining in the fight, and anything else for the final epic push to destroy all Iconian Allies, and even push into the newly found Andromeda Gateway assess. That would be paramount to a large scale effort. I don't know if all this could be tied in or make even a little bit of sense, just worth a lot of thought. Make it so! : )
Forgive my spelling and if I didn't use correct STO or Star Trek Lore into this. Thanks.
My idea is that the one who blew Iconia to Kingdom Come was Sela. And the remaining Iconians are alive thanks to us, because we saw the genocide and did our best to negate the damage.
There's only one thing wrong with that theory.
Namely us. The good guys.
If we are "The Other", Did the Iconians just forget we saved them. 'We' as in everyone but the evil, evil, Romulans? Why would they wage a galaxy wide war if it were the Rommies that destroyed their home? And even if it was 'us', as in the grand Alliance (everyone, not just the Romulans) that laid waste to their homeworld and civilization. If our individual Captain is "The Other", wouldn't they at least know that we didn't mean to do it? That they forced our hand?
Knowing this, wouldn't they choose a new course to follow, as any hostility would eventually bring their ruin again in a closed time loop?
Oh wait, maybe not. These are the self-same Iconians that said, "Power going out on one ship in a couple hundred thousand. Must...kill...self...to...keep...lights...on..."
My idea is that the one who blew Iconia to Kingdom Come was Sela. And the remaining Iconians are alive thanks to us, because we saw the genocide and did our best to negate the damage.
There's only one thing wrong with that theory.
Namely us. The good guys.
If we are "The Other", Did the Iconians just forget we saved them. 'We' as in everyone but the evil, evil, Romulans? Why would they wage a galaxy wide war if it were the Rommies that destroyed their home? And even if it was 'us', as in the grand Alliance (everyone, not just the Romulans) that laid waste to their homeworld and civilization. If our individual Captain is "The Other", wouldn't they at least know that we didn't mean to do it? That they forced our hand?
Knowing this, wouldn't they choose a new course to follow, as any hostility would eventually bring their ruin again in a closed time loop?
Oh wait, maybe not. These are the self-same Iconians that said, "Power going out on one ship in a couple hundred thousand. Must...kill...self...to...keep...lights...on..."
they don't seem to actually know WHO The Other is
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I think, from the Iconians' perspective, they would see two distinct factions - or rather, groups - in orbit.
One made up of Dominion, Tholian, Breen, Hirogen (just picking some random possible guys), who are bombarding their planet, and there's just one Romulan (Sela) in all that big badness somewhere.
And another collection of ships (us) that are transporting Iconians to safety, provide covering fire and block enemy bombardment with their own shields, but go an extra mile to jam sensors, mask signatures, and maintain comm silence.
In all that confusion, especially around a planet with a crumbling infrastructure, failing power grid and its defenses shattered, yeah I think if the Alliance plays its cards right they could get away with it. Leaving the Iconians with a mystery fleet that saved them while another destroyed Iconia.
"Ad astra audacter eamus in alis fidelium."
-
"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
NOTE: I am willing to forgive if Kurkland was on one of those Defiants.
Kurland here? Kurland.. gone.
Actually, if the J-man's not SAG, all these temporal shenanigans would be the perfect excuse to replace Kurland retroactively, rerecord that dialogue, and maybe add some variety to that voiceover.
Incidentally, I never blamed Jeremy for Kurland losing DS9 all those times or the sound barks. He was sick when you guys recorded that series, you were experimenting with soundbarks anyway, and Kurland's incompetence was a way to get a lot of the action in a more padded leveling curve onto DS9. But I gather Kurland probably ISN'T coming back for contractual reasons, including remastered scenes, which positions you guys to tidy up some of that stuff a bit more radically.
And maybe with all this temporal stuff, DS9 could get a new commander.
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
But I bet their agents are there too, hampering Sela's efforts to gather allies.
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
According to their own story the dominion knows of them but are not getting involved in a fight against them. If you talk to that one vorta that lets you ask about the issue back from when the dominion FE's came out he pretty much tells you we are cool right now but don't think for a second we would get involved against them.
As well the way this story goes and canon goes I'll yet give a few more examples of why removing iconians from timeline in a common sense fashion wouldn't solve the problem just create millions if not more problems. First they were the first children of the preservers. Which is the basic building block of all the humanoids that exist in the present. Then take in consideration the tactics and how jem hadar, vorta, changlings interact was discovered and most likely what gave the edge in the dominion war but without the iconians creating that gate that they went on a co-op mission with that event would never take place. As well you have to think about all these races that stood up to the iconians just one of them could take their place as the evil overlord of the galaxy lol. Cut off the head with a time weapon and a billion more will grow. It was just not well thought out and too generically bold plot to go off of that as well ended enterprise prematurely due to the fact its a bad idea especially in sci fi shows to go off on temporal geneocide lol.
except the final transmission from sela on gaining T5 iconian rep reveals the heralds are currently attacking the dominion; they're involved whether they want to be or not
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
As for the time weapon - there are complications (understatement). As A certain doctor in a blue box has already pointed out, some points in time are fixed and cannot be changed. In this instance, the Iconians cannot be simply erased or turned into good guys. Without the Iconian interference, the Undine would not have made incursions into our space, save to kick Borg butt. Without the Iconians putting a gate on Hobus there would be no subspace supernova when it went "boom!" and subsequently no destruction of romulus, and no legacy of Romulus storyline. Without the Iconian interference with the bluegill controlled Vaadwaar, there would be no unifying threat to form the delta alliance. and so on...
Whether we like it or not, the Iconian interference is a fixed event. If we use the time weapon to remove them or their plans to retake the galaxy, we also remove the entire STO storyline.
(of course, if we aim the time beam at the STO story writers, well...that's another story altogether! LOL!)
Did we (and I stare at Captain Nog when I say this) really think this through when we unexpectedly allied ourselves with the Krenim? Let's face it, if they can hide a planet from us, what else could they be hiding?
As Julius Caesar once said: "Et tu, Brutus?"
granted, the attitude of one man is never indicative of the entire race (unless it's a hive mind), but still...
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
So time-zapping the Iconians means Tovan Khev gets erased, too? That's a sweet bonus! [*"accidentally" fires Temporal Weapon*]
Seriously, though, it's starting to look more and more that the Temporal Weapon will be used (and will make things worse), that our Alliance will wind up being the original Alliance of 200,000 years ago, and that the Player Character will turn out to be "The Other" who saves the Iconians and undoes all the nastiness.
Then it's milk and cookies time for everybody - just in time for Q's Winter Wonderland! Nog's Nog all around!
"There's one. On this side of it, we ain't TRIBBLE."
^_~
All jokes aside, to quote Worf, "Death to the opposition!"
Annorax spent all that time to restore the Imperium, including the home of him and his wife: Kyana Prime. And now that the Vaadwaur are through with them, only Kyana Prime is left (and maybe some other small isolated colonies?)
Talk about irony... ^^
Would they become arrogant and aggressive if they get their Imperium back? Hard to tell, but yeah they want their end of the bargain too: to erase their war with the Vaadwaur, and that might have some negative effects. No Vaadwaur, no stasis pods for the Kobali for example.
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
Which is what I suspect will happen in this arc... time will be gravely altered and we have to find a way to set it straight like the Krenim did. Which was one awesome Voyager episode I have to say. They didn't have many, but for the few jewels, it was worth coming back every week.
:: sneezes :: Why is it no-one dusts the bridge on Starfleet vessels?" -Emsil Marat, Glinn
"We can not interfere in the progression of one's life" -Richard Lynch, LtCdr
We threw what we could at that Herald Sphere. Our armada was torn to pieces, we only have a few available ships left, while the rest of our forces are tied down defending civilian targets.
In the meantime, Sela is trying to gather allies to get her revenge for the Star Empire, and for her time in Iconian prison.
Now what if...
... Sela does come back with allies. A mighty fleet that is capable of doing the job. In the meantime, the Alliance has no choice but to cut corners, and rush to finish the Krenim weapon in time. In the final battle, the weapon is launched, but misfires. Sending us, and Sela's armada back 200,000 years.
There you are with what remaining ships you have, and all you tried to do was to win a war.
And there's Sela with her armada, her vengeance, and Iconia within her reach.
"The Whole will shatter and I will be there to see it." - I think Sela says something like that.
"The attack on Iconia broke our unity [...] we cannot risk any more loss." - M'Tara
My idea is that the one who blew Iconia to Kingdom Come was Sela. And the remaining Iconians are alive thanks to us, because we saw the genocide and did our best to negate the damage.
And after the fall of the Iconian homeworld, the enslaved races threw down their chains and rose up against an Iconian Empire that is left without leadership.
How does that sound?
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
...you know, that kinda does make some sense - it would certainly explain away why the iconians tried to wipe out the romulans by tricking taris into destroying hobus, a star that was conveniently in the middle of ROMULAN territory
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
The crews of the Alliance ships, hoping to maintain the timeline's integrity, do not reveal their identity to the Iconians they save. I'm guessing here's where we would become known to the surviving Iconians as this enigmatic and almost revered "The Other" (either our character or our ships as a whole).
In the meantime, Sela and her armada is torn to pieces by the Heralds that rush to the burning (and beyond saving) Iconian capital.
And after learning all that, our job is to get back to the present using the time ship (or a bit earlier), and get the Iconians to stand down, because they are fighting the very people who saved them.
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
The remaining 2/3rds were most likely guarding key systems and sectors and could not be deployed. Some of them might have been simply too far away to get to Kyana in time.
We know from Sphere of Influence that the Iconians don't want to attack the Dominion as long as Alpha and Beta have not been thoroughly subjugated.
Apparrently, they consider the Dominion as too powerfull for a two-front war.
there is missing detail that would fill in that tale of war more complete, an admiral is mentioned but its not mentioned who, it would explain alot for example if it was quinn mentioned in that tale.
this is a case where section 31 and temporal agents could be a major boon, section 31 would do anything to save the federation from its enemies, they dont care about morality, nothing is too extreme for section 31. where the federation reap that knowledge, so does the romulans and klingons.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
uh, i beg to differ...my main character is a section 31 operative, and he finds the idea of using that ship abhorrent - mainly because it is far more likely that any use of it will end up WIPING OUT the federation as opposed to saving it
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Dahar Master K'Mohr brought up a story told to him by one of his descendant that was member of Klingon Security and that he transmitted the plans of the Genesis Device. Which brought about the Genesis Nonproliferation Treaty in the year 2285 between the major Alpha and Beta quadrant powers, that forbade the use of the Genesis Technology as a war weapon.
He also had another story told by Ambassador Worf about a Star fleet vessel, the USS Pegasus that was testing a prototype cloaking device that phase through solid matter while cloak in 2318 in violation to the Treaty of Algeron.
Dahar Master K'Mohr has ask the House of Pegh to get the plans for the Genesis Device but needs someone from the Federation to get the plans for the Prototype Cloaking device that the USS Pegasus used and someone from the Romulan Republic for a ship they can spare.
Since he has a plan needs the Genesis Device on a automated ship with Phase Cloaking to destroy the Heralds' fleets in the Iconian Sphere from the inside.
But in case that fails, he needs a group to go to the Guardian planet to ask the Guardian some questions about the "Other" that the Iconians' mention while they were out of phased on the Krenim moon. To find who, where and when the "Other" can be found and use that as leverage against the Iconians.
Since many Captains in the Klingon, Federation and Romulan Republic are not so incline to use the Krenim Temporal weapon.
Most of the Delta Quadrant was affected in some way by the introduction of the Vaadwaur threat and also from the attacks by the Undine, again all orchestrated by the Iconian. So why are not the Voth joining the Allies; for the Voth had to fight the Undine over the Spire and also provide protection for their allies like the Turei against the Vaadwaur threat. Also, after forming many alliances in the Delta Expansion, you'd think that some would actually play a bigger part. The Bethan’s, Ocampa, Kobali, Hazari, Cooperative to name a few.
Here is a thought, I would have the Kobali in ships at the rear, so every person we lost, they could bring back with their technology and we would never run out of personnel. The Bethan’s would fight, because they believe in upholding Justice/much like the Judge Dredd’s of the STO World. The (FED, RR, and KDF) could setup bounties against the Iconian and that would bring in the races such as the Hazari and Kazon. The (FED, RR, and KDF) could also work out a deal with the Cooperative to allow all assimilation of Iconian technology/races for their amusement and mutual benefit.
Heck, since we are losing the war so badly, I would give that same appeal for the Collective, send Seven of Nine in there to negotiate with the Queen a type of assimilation pact with the Borg just like the Cooperative. Show the Borg that the Iconian still exist, and they would be on it fast to add them (Iconian) to their "Perfection". I would also point out to the Borg too, that well if you like assimilating civilizations, hard to do that if the Iconian destroy them all. Simple supply and demand issue there, the Borg wouldn't need too much calculations to figure that one out.
I would also send in representative from RR to the Romulan Star Empire to negotiate with the aid of Sela supporters a Coup d'état against the Tal Shiar and gain the Imperial Forces as an Ally as well, especially after what occurred to their Empress at the hands of the Tal Shiar and their Iconian Supporters. Give the Imperials all data we have on the Hobas disaster and events afterwards, when negotiation starts. Also have the RR bring in with the Imperials the Hirogen allies too...they love to hunt big game, well Iconian could definitely fit right into that category. They would join in a heartbeat.
I would also, after this last incursion, send all representatives to the Tholian Assembly to negotiate time/travel interventions with that aided already in part from the Krenim. I think, no that the Iconian deliberately destroyed their personnel on New Romulus, they too would be ticked off and eager for some payback. So that could would a double edged sword...both time traveling/influencing powers working together to create weapons or paradoxes against the Iconian threat. I would use the help of temporal agencies in this matter as well, which we already know the FED, RR, and KDF have personnel who have used time altering methods before. Again though Prime Directive goes out window on that one, coupled with the Kremin "Super Weapon", but we are running out of time...and now people/planets.
Also I would send Tuvok into to again negotiate with the Undine "Brain" ship that took out Undine Dr. Cooper. Again share all intelligence, materials, and data etc. we have on the Iconian incursion into their space and the subsequent attacks of artificial ships etc., they too would join in to get revenge. For they would know, once our galaxy was rendered asunder they too would be next.
I would work out all trade negotiations too with every trading civilization known in STO, such as the Ferengi, Syndicate, and Trade Unions etc., as well as Dominion traders from Gamma Quadrant, allowing for all materials or trade routes to be established and free plundering/profiteering of Iconian tech. That might work for them.
I would set into action a misdirection plan with the crew "aka the player" to go covert into Dominion space and seek out Odo, Eraun, Loris, and the Female Founder we set free facility 4028. I know in a previous mission the Dominion stated they would have no part of fighting the Iconian, but maybe talking to the people mentioned above might do the trick; negotiate a deal or at least ask a favor...heck beg, since we again are at the end of our ropes. I would also again show them all the data information we have from mission Sphere of Influence where the Iconian are noted for spying on and describing what they would do to the Dominion forces. Show that threat as being immanent, if the current Allies lose, and yet again, we may pull out another potential faction to attack the Iconian.
Last plan to try out is...far fetch; well probably as far-fetched as I have already ranted about, but try using all stop gaps. For instance, using graviton pulses to communicate with any more Crystal Entities that are out there...since many have shown up on STO and from the TNT. Help them understand that we can give them the most delicious amount of energy and bio-life forms to absorb in that of the Iconian and their allies, shoot the energy factor alone might entice the Entity to come join the fray. Tractor beam it to the Iconian Gateway in space large enough for ships etc. from the mission Sphere of Influence and set the Gateway for the Iconian Super Sphere...then let it do its handy work. I would also depending if they are alive, use Picard or Siskco to contact "Q" and ask him for a favor, as both have worked with him in the past and both have aided him when he too was mortal etc. Maybe showing him what the Iconian did to the Preserves might push him to act, or at least speak to the Continuum on behave of the suffering worlds. Besides, what would "Q" do if he has no more fun times playing with humans and their emotions, once we're all extinct. Might try that route with him.
I figure with all of these and the numerous other ones, many have talked about with more clarity, sources, and knowledge...I think STO could make many great game play from these ramblings and have the largest, grandest, game end play ever if we had all of these powers working together. I could imagine the current Allies on the brink, literally down to the last remaining worlds and fleets, then...if all or some of these going to plan...the Iconian receive the biggest whooping the galaxy has seen. I mean sheesh the Tholian/Kremin time travel and weapons, Collective/Cooperative assimilation, Kobali clean-up crews, Voth, Turei, new friendly Vaadwaur after their leaders were found to be puppets of Iconian via brain bugs (attacking the subspace to destroy Elachi and Solanae), Undine planet killer weapons, Hirogen hunting parties, Dominion Jem'Hadar crack troops (literally, ketracel-white), Imperial/RR joining forces, traders/pirates, mercenaries all alike fighting for plunder, Delta Alliance actually joining in the fight, and anything else for the final epic push to destroy all Iconian Allies, and even push into the newly found Andromeda Gateway assess. That would be paramount to a large scale effort. I don't know if all this could be tied in or make even a little bit of sense, just worth a lot of thought. Make it so! : )
Forgive my spelling and if I didn't use correct STO or Star Trek Lore into this. Thanks.
There's only one thing wrong with that theory.
Namely us. The good guys.
If we are "The Other", Did the Iconians just forget we saved them. 'We' as in everyone but the evil, evil, Romulans? Why would they wage a galaxy wide war if it were the Rommies that destroyed their home? And even if it was 'us', as in the grand Alliance (everyone, not just the Romulans) that laid waste to their homeworld and civilization. If our individual Captain is "The Other", wouldn't they at least know that we didn't mean to do it? That they forced our hand?
Knowing this, wouldn't they choose a new course to follow, as any hostility would eventually bring their ruin again in a closed time loop?
Oh wait, maybe not. These are the self-same Iconians that said, "Power going out on one ship in a couple hundred thousand. Must...kill...self...to...keep...lights...on..."
arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1203368/pve-content-a-list-of-gamewide-polishing-pass-suggestions
they don't seem to actually know WHO The Other is
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
"The higher the fewer."
One made up of Dominion, Tholian, Breen, Hirogen (just picking some random possible guys), who are bombarding their planet, and there's just one Romulan (Sela) in all that big badness somewhere.
And another collection of ships (us) that are transporting Iconians to safety, provide covering fire and block enemy bombardment with their own shields, but go an extra mile to jam sensors, mask signatures, and maintain comm silence.
In all that confusion, especially around a planet with a crumbling infrastructure, failing power grid and its defenses shattered, yeah I think if the Alliance plays its cards right they could get away with it. Leaving the Iconians with a mystery fleet that saved them while another destroyed Iconia.
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
Actually, if the J-man's not SAG, all these temporal shenanigans would be the perfect excuse to replace Kurland retroactively, rerecord that dialogue, and maybe add some variety to that voiceover.
Incidentally, I never blamed Jeremy for Kurland losing DS9 all those times or the sound barks. He was sick when you guys recorded that series, you were experimenting with soundbarks anyway, and Kurland's incompetence was a way to get a lot of the action in a more padded leveling curve onto DS9. But I gather Kurland probably ISN'T coming back for contractual reasons, including remastered scenes, which positions you guys to tidy up some of that stuff a bit more radically.
And maybe with all this temporal stuff, DS9 could get a new commander.