What is the deal with +50k DPS setups?

newnja · July 2015

As the title says... I just don't get it. Having 50k dps and more is cool but a donkey flatulence(edited) in your ship's direction and u gotta respawn. I've seen so many people in ISA for example, with such dps and almost no survivability. Is it really worth it?

Just to be clear, I have tried some higher dps builds "of my own" but soon realized that 15-25k dps is more than enough while keeping decent/great tanking abilities. Also, in ISA... 1 gravity well is worth more than 50k dps with no tank, just my opinion.

EDIT: Sorry, had to change the word in the 1st sentence.. I never considered it to be inappropriate.

flash525 · July 2015

DPS seems to be the in thing. There are various scenario throughout the game whereby, if you hope to succeed, you're going to need that DPS; that Borg one where you've got to take out an Undine Ship, Voth Dreadnought and Queen's Diamond require DPS. You aren't going to beat it with a build that's based on survivability.

It's daft, I know, but... welcome to DPS Online.

lordprotius · July 2015

The Allure of DPS is also a matter of pushing yourself and your ship to its limits...

Sure 25-30k dps is fine for most of the content... but as the post above points to... if you want the "brag" rights of doing certain Elite runs.... your going to need DPS... no amount of surviability will allow you to beat Hive Space Elite... or Borg Disconnected Elite...or Gateway to Grethor Elite without the DPS to finish the job.

cassiusdio · July 2015

Fully agree with OP. I like to play with pugs and there you need a bit of survivability, 15-25k dps is even enough to carry a 3k dps teammate if there is some sort of cc in team.
I think the dps-race is just some other sort of aspect of sto where people can see how far they can push it. Just like free-climbing...one may question if its necessary or reasonable but some people just want to see if it works.
If it is "worth" it can not be answered since it depends on the point of view.

durenas · July 2015

Gotta find something to do when you reach the endgame. Some meter to measure yourself against. And experimentation is fun!

e30ernest · July 2015

For me, I just want to see how far I can push my ship with the build philosophy I chose.

Generally when I die in ISA, it's either I pulled the aggro of everything around me, I made a mistake, or I tried a last ditch effort to concentrate everything on firepower to either take down the transformer or the nanites before they reach the transformer when it becomes apparent that simple CC isn't enough to save the run.

Personally I do think my ship has enough survivability to make it out of most STFs without exploding. But when all of the Nanites, Cube and Gateway start focusing on me, there isn't much a mere Science ship can do (rightfully so).

There are dedicated tanks out there too that can deal 70k DPS and beyond while drawing majority of the aggro while surviving. I find those builds and pilots amazing.

kittyflofy · July 2015

newnja wrote: »

As the title says... I just don't get it. Having 50k dps and more is cool but a donkey flatulence(edited) in your ship's direction and u gotta respawn. I've seen so many people in ISA for example, with such dps and almost no survivability. Is it really worth it?

Just to be clear, I have tried some higher dps builds "of my own" but soon realized that 15-25k dps is more than enough while keeping decent/great tanking abilities. Also, in ISA... 1 gravity well is worth more than 50k dps with no tank, just my opinion.

EDIT: Sorry, had to change the word in the 1st sentence.. I never considered it to be inappropriate.

Well, sorry but im tired of doing ISA in advanced with no survavilty escorts and i never die. Of course i have basic piloting skills. Thats the all you need in this game to survive with any ship, and you dont need survivavilty "skills". Im sooo tired of NOT dying in any stf. And my ships are 80% escorts. Dude, i have already like 6 or 7 healing skills that are not even derived from my boffs. How the hell can anyone in this game to die anywhere?? lol. Seriously, i sometimes think that when that happens, the guy in question has no piloting skills at all.. or no building ships skills at all... btw, my dps is not more than 16-20k. More than enough for me, but as i said i never die.. not with my Matha, not with my Pilot ship, not with my mirror patrol escort, not with my kumari. I just find sooooo hard to die in this game xDD.

As other guy mentioned, if every enemy on the map is firing at you, it will not matter if you are the best tank in the world anyways. But in normal circunstances, how can anyone die?? it escapes me.. lol.

smokeybacon90 · July 2015

It's really not difficult to get a 50k+ setup that is quite capable of surviving through various resists and heals. We even have a plethora of flat-out immunities now. Excusing yourself for doing no damage by saying you are staying alive is not really valid. Simply staying alive alone does not beat any content in this game.

ryakidrys · July 2015

It all has to do with how you want to play and what is fun to you. If pushing the limits is fun, and the multitude of deaths makes the few times you don't die at the drop of a hat that much more rewarding and satisfactory, then have fun! If tanking is more fun to you, that's great too!

shandypandy · July 2015

If dying had any repercussions I'd agree OP, but it doesn't (apart from the possibility that you might need to repair with the stack of 20+ of each you probably hold in your inventory anyway).

Therefore, someone can be as explodey as they like while doing 100k or 1k: it affects nothing.

newnja · July 2015

Thanks for the replies. I think I'm starting to understand a bit better now.

The "problem" with me is.. I hate exploding, I think it is lame.. it definitely feels lame (for me that is). Some people obviously don't mind respawning several times.

I just felt that there is a certain DPS limit where you can beat everything and still stay alive, pushing over the limit excludes the other in most cases. I still think 20k is about enough.

shandypandy · July 2015

Oh definitely, it winds me up too; and to be fair, if someone's properly going for a run, get's a decent GDF then explodes they're gonna warp and try again. Everyone uses heals sometimes.

7 or 8 on one boat though is overkill, imo. HE will do the job all day long for most people.

gavinruneblade · July 2015

newnja wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. I think I'm starting to understand a bit better now.

The "problem" with me is.. I hate exploding, I think it is lame.. it definitely feels lame (for me that is). Some people obviously don't mind respawning several times.

I just felt that there is a certain DPS limit where you can beat everything and still stay alive, pushing over the limit excludes the other in most cases. I still think 20k is about enough.

Try some of vel aka mastajdog known here as jarvisandalfred Builds. He's possibly the best tank in the game and has several 50k+ tank builds. He's also extremely helpful if you have questions.

http://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/comments/2u9o7x/the_rrw_jericho_a_75k_tank/

Building glass cannons is not the only way to reach high damage.

lowy1 · July 2015

I haven't done ISA in my T6 Avenger, but have run a few CCAs and I can handle that 2 shockwave things with ease; I could in my T5U, I don't use much in the way of defense other than the 2 piece Counter Command WC and Deflector and the odd defensive stat between my unique consoles. You may want to look at space traits and ship traits. My ship is all but decked out in Epic GEar and I am at 85k Hull and 16.5k Shields with resists at 38.5-45.

praxi5 · July 2015

Meh. It depends on the player.

My 40K (ish) T5 Avenger can probably outtank most people in the game, and that's just by using the Cmdr Eng and Intel/Pilot tree.

You've also got to remember that for 97% of the content, if you've got a DPS build, you can kill it much faster than it can kill you (invisi-megatorps aside).

There's also the fact that Threat and Aggro in this game is utterly moronic; if you want to run a Tank, you need to be doing a huge amount of DPS.

dakkalvar1 · July 2015

I only do 30k DPS, but I tank everything, because almost no one else I see in pugs breaks 20k. Anyone doing 50k dps in a pug IS TANKING. No one who respawns even once is parsing 50k dps....

gavinruneblade · July 2015

praxi5 wrote: »

There's also the fact that Threat and Aggro in this game is utterly moronic; if you want to run a Tank, you need to be doing a huge amount of DPS.

common misconception. Threat is extremely highly modified by range. If you want threat get to point-blank range. Damage does help however, especially the better the team you fly with as they'll tend to be close to the enemy too.

In a bad pug though, if you want aggro, touch your nose to the enemy. Since everyone else is probably at 9 or 10k, you'll have aggro pretty fast.

paxdawn · July 2015

praxi5 wrote: »

Meh. It depends on the player.

My 40K (ish) T5 Avenger can probably outtank most people in the game, and that's just by using the Cmdr Eng and Intel/Pilot tree.

You've also got to remember that for 97% of the content, if you've got a DPS build, you can kill it much faster than it can kill you (invisi-megatorps aside).

There's also the fact that Threat and Aggro in this game is utterly moronic; if you want to run a Tank, you need to be doing a huge amount of DPS.

You dont need a huge amount of DPS, you need a certain amount of DPS compared to the group you are tanking for. Positioning compared to NPC and threat skill also matters.

praxi5 · July 2015

paxdawn wrote: »

praxi5 wrote: »

Meh. It depends on the player.

My 40K (ish) T5 Avenger can probably outtank most people in the game, and that's just by using the Cmdr Eng and Intel/Pilot tree.

You've also got to remember that for 97% of the content, if you've got a DPS build, you can kill it much faster than it can kill you (invisi-megatorps aside).

There's also the fact that Threat and Aggro in this game is utterly moronic; if you want to run a Tank, you need to be doing a huge amount of DPS.

You dont need a huge amount of DPS, you need a certain amount of DPS compared to the group you are tanking for. Positioning compared to NPC and threat skill also matters.

Well, true.

I mean in the sense that if you're tanking for a pug, you need to be doing a good chunk of damage compared to them. Not hard at all for the average DPS-oriented player, but also significantly more work is required than what your average pug pumps out.

If you're tanking for a premade, then you need to be doing an impressive amount of damage as well.

Either way, you need to be doing (relatively) high end DPS, for the environment that you're playing in. Range and such comes into play, but if you don't have the DPS to back that up, someone else is going to take aggro off of you.

paxdawn · July 2015

praxi5 wrote: »

Well, true.

I mean in the sense that if you're tanking for a pug, you need to be doing a good chunk of damage compared to them. Not hard at all for the average DPS-oriented player, but also significantly more work is required than what your average pug pumps out.

If you're tanking for a premade, then you need to be doing an impressive amount of damage as well.

Either way, you need to be doing (relatively) high end DPS, for the environment that you're playing in. Range and such comes into play, but if you don't have the DPS to back that up, someone else is going to take aggro off of you.

If we use the Average mean 9k DPS as the basis of average, and 4 other players do that, the tank may be doing 5-7K DPS to get aggro. But the tank wouldnt get aggro if parsing 1k DPS or less. In short, The tank can be lower than the groups highest DPSer but shouldnt be immensely lower.

e30ernest · July 2015

That's another reason why high-DPS builds seems more squishy in PUGs. More likely, they are flying closer to mobs and dealing high area damage so they get a lot more aggro than everyone else. They may fly ships that are have better resists than everyone else but due to the amount of aggro they pull, it would seem they are flying glass cannons.

cidjack · July 2015

As I have been told, you should always be reaching for more DPS.

kimmym · July 2015

A world where people are spitting 50+k DPS left and right but built glass cannons seems like a world ripe for healing to make an entry on the scene.

WAI, IMO. I'd like to see more of it, and more people excited when a healer shows up.

paxdawn · July 2015

kimmym wrote: »

A world where people are spitting 50+k DPS left and right but built glass cannons seems like a world ripe for healing to make an entry on the scene.

WAI, IMO. I'd like to see more of it, and more people excited when a healer shows up.

Except in this MMO a competent pve healer can deal 50k+ DPS also. DPS here comes, goes naturally to whatever role you are doing and if a player knows what they are are doing.

Nor everything in 50k+ DPS above are glass cannons since those builds include the toughest tanks.

kimmym · July 2015

I actually only used 50k because the OP did. I quite often see 90+k, and trust me they ain't tanking a thing.

To be fair, in ISA doing 90+k you don't really get a chance to tank anything =P

But the thought is still there. I'm all for DPS reaching sky high, but needing a healer to stay alive to do it, or a beefy dedicated tank to soak the hits, or a sci to drain/disable (That would be nice, something different to do than rampant partgen/exotic % stacking...)

Sounds like progress, if the playerbase can adapt.

gradii · July 2015

This is how:

Sano · July 2015

Actually more dps means less dmg taken cause enemies who are dead cant shoot at you.
Also tanking doesnt really work at least not as needed. It may work for those that do so little dmg they dont get any aggro anyways but if even playing eng you do more than the rest of the team combined or by using +th consoles you get the aggro of te whole map no tanking in the world will keep you alibe when your teammates dont help.

In the end I take a lot less dmg when you run with a good dps team. If you see heavy dps done and the player doing it gets killed its actually your fault. You wont need your heals as he is taking all the aggro so you should habe healed him.

ryakidrys · July 2015

Sano wrote: »

Actually more dps means less dmg taken cause enemies who are dead cant shoot at you.
Also tanking doesnt really work at least not as needed. It may work for those that do so little dmg they dont get any aggro anyways but if even playing eng you do more than the rest of the team combined or by using +th consoles you get the aggro of te whole map no tanking in the world will keep you alibe when your teammates dont help.

In the end I take a lot less dmg when you run with a good dps team. If you see heavy dps done and the player doing it gets killed its actually your fault. You wont need your heals as he is taking all the aggro so you should habe healed him.

Tanking works, though it isn't the same in STO as it is in other MMORPGs. I agree that it is not a necessity, though it can be useful.

e30ernest · July 2015

Sano wrote: »

If you see heavy dps done and the player doing it gets killed its actually your fault. You wont need your heals as he is taking all the aggro so you should habe healed him.

II don't really agree with this bit. If you die, it's no one else's fault but your own. Not unless it was agreed upon that someone is to be a dedicated healer or tank, the safety of your ship falls squarely on your shoulders.

sarcasmdetector · July 2015

reyan01 wrote: »

Which sort of goes back to bragging rights; because the only reason the DPS epeen wavers bother with ISA is because it's the only accepted method of measuring DPS. Even though it's ADVANCED content, not Elite.

Oh? So high DPSers should just stick to ISE instead right? oh wait...

storules · July 2015

DPS online rules

What is the deal with +50k DPS setups?

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