Iconians Vs Krenim? Us in the middle? Who is Playing Who?

qziqza · July 2015

If you had the time and space to spin around until you fell over, eventually you'd get around to picking yourself up off the floor. aside from a few grazes and a mild concussion, that given time you could forget about, it would be entirely possible for you to develop a different perspective on the current Iconian war doodah. so [tomfoolery / time + mild concussion] = me asking the following question..

are we are all just pawns in a long standing war between the Krenim and the Iconians?? and if not, how would you write it so that we were?

this may, or may not be an obvious question to some, but to me.. is only now seeming colourfully plausible.

supersagat · July 2015

Personally, i think its the glass half empty vs the glass is still empty. The iconians are a race that is considered to be the first, The Krenim are a race who thought it was a good idea to mess with the clock on the wall. After just re watching the Voy: year of hell part one and two. It make me think that using the krenim to create that ship over again will be a huge mistake and if the iconians was to get there hands on it none of the whole war will matter.

Since The year of hell never existed, My only question is this Did Sto honestly forgot that we would not know math?
algrebra says that a negative and a positive only make a negative. If we take the krenims plan to build that ship we would repeat the same tragic mistake and also cause 2 possible outcomes A Infinite loop where using that ship on the iconians would be fruitless since they would not be located in a time-line in which they can be removed out time line until we found the hidden dyson sphere. The second outcome to this that we do find a way to rebuild that ship we would have not one but 3 enimies to deal with Krenium might have been in hiding but, would do anything wipe out us all just to regain space and history, the moment that ship is built. iconians spies who would eventually find out about the rebuild and to sabotage or steal and even worse, Federations own Time police would have issues with us breaking the Temporal prime directive.

MY only answer that i can come up with the the first race, before there planet was destroyed they was going to prepare something for us to defend our self against them i think they key is every race has something on the iconians that we can use like Rebirth, Time, communication, information, and humanity, all are pieces of this puzzle the Real question is can we solve it before they over whelm us.

[Deleted User] · July 2015

This is what happens when your storyline is nothing but a near-random melange of continuity nods and recycled scripts instead of trying to make something genuinely new. Star Trek: Generations had the same problem.

gulberat · July 2015

StarSword-C wrote: »

This is what happens when your storyline is nothing but a near-random melange of continuity nods and recycled scripts instead of trying to make something genuinely new. Star Trek: Generations had the same problem.

I actually give Generations a bit more credit than that...there were certain questions it posed that very honestly made me think. I wouldn't give it the "best Trek movie" award, but I wouldn't put it at the bottom at all.

That said, I would point out that I have noticed some other things in "Year of H*ll" that could be done with that ship that would not require the permanent erasure of a single atom. I don't know if Cryptic will pick up on it or not, but remember how Annorax transported Chakotay and Paris out of the timeline while still leaving them existing and alive? What might be the effect, for instance, of beaming the Iconian council, or even just one of them aboard that ship, considering it would cause them to become temporally unmoored and thus mentally compromised, and then beaming them back, having either forgotten their reasons for anger at the "lesser" races, simply being too non compos mentis to do anything, or perhaps even "brainwashed" into accepting a better attitude towards us?

baddmoonrizin · July 2015

Actually, I think we're going to see some Iconian in-fighting. T'Ket (being the big bad) vs L'Miren (who comes to sympathize with us) with M'Tara being the swing vote.

Sano · July 2015

I think cryptic is going to use the "we play with time"-Card to have an excuse to basically remake anything and everyone like they want by having this "its a new timeline"-excuse.
It worked for JJ so I guess they thought hey we can do the same thing.
While in general that may not be a bad thing I fear what cryptics gonna use this freedom for.
They could easily make romulus reappear or like completely remove the borg from the timeline in just one move by just saying yeah you removed the iconians from existance but your calculations were off a bit and so such and such is now f'ed up

gradii · July 2015

Sano wrote: »

I think cryptic is going to use the "we play with time"-Card to have an excuse to basically remake anything and everyone like they want by having this "its a new timeline"-excuse.
It worked for JJ so I guess they thought hey we can do the same thing.
While in general that may not be a bad thing I fear what cryptics gonna use this freedom for.
They could easily make romulus reappear or like completely remove the borg from the timeline in just one move by just saying yeah you removed the iconians from existance but your calculations were off a bit and so such and such is now f'ed up

I highly doubt they'd do that given that they still are beholden to the owners of the IP, however it is a really really nasty thought.

I could easily see people leaving the game due to massive storyline quality decay like that, and we may already be seeing the start.

baddmoonrizin · July 2015

Wait. Aren't we basically headed down the same road that Taris was on? She was hoping to use the Iconians to restore Romulus. Now we're going to use the Krenim to wipe out the Iconians so that the war never happens?

seannewboy · July 2015

This ship is going to settle the "Other" issue in the long run, but will first be stolen by the krenim, like the kobali ship was by the kobali kim. The krenim ship may be destroyed, but the tech will go into a solution that will create the situation where the "Other" can stop the current war as well as saving the Iconians. It may in fact also be a male Iconian.

ltminns · July 2015

What long-standing war? Unless I missed something the Krenim are trying to survive in the wake of the Vaadwaur assault as directed by the Iconians. I don't see any indication that this has been a multi-millenium struggle between the two.

supergirl1611 · July 2015

Don't worry about temporal mechanics or time loops. You know at the end of the war Riker is going to call for the Arch and say "computer end program". And we will realise the Iconian war is nothing but a badly scripted holo-novel needed to help Riker tell Picard something thats been bugging him morally for years

.

It's been a long road
Getting from there to here
It's been a long time
But my time is finally near

And I can see my dreams come alive at night
I will touch the sky
And they're not gonna hold me down no more
No there not gonna hold me down

duncanidaho11 · July 2015

StarSword-C wrote: »

This is what happens when your storyline is nothing but a near-random melange of continuity nods and recycled scripts instead of trying to make something genuinely new. Star Trek: Into Darkness had the same problem.

Fixed.

duncanidaho11 · July 2015

valoreah wrote: »

StarSword-C wrote: »

This is what happens when your storyline is nothing but a near-random melange of continuity nods and recycled scripts instead of trying to make something genuinely new. Star Trek: Generations had the same problem.

I think you hit the nail right on the head. Us needing the Krenim's help doesn't make much sense as the Federation alone has proven it can successfully time travel using various methods.

Bringing back more whales won't help. The FED needs someone who has weaponized time travel technology, or can develop it very quickly. Given the Krenim are the only species (I think) that's demonstrated the capacity at some point bringing them in does make sense according to 1. conditions imposed on this season and 2. Delta Rising (would be rather deflating if the entire quadrant became moot in the very next season.)

goodscotch · July 2015

No matter how dangerous the Iconians are, the Krenim have the capability to be equally destructive and dangerous. Their ships can change timelines and blast entire peoples into irrelevancy or non-existence. And the Alliance is cozying up to these guys and embracing...what...their ability to blast the Iconians into irrelevancy? Who will be the next victim of their timeline destroyer ship?

It seems to me that the Krenim have imposed the role of being God-like beings who can determine who should exist and how upon themselves. No wonder the Iconians want them out of the picture. The Alliance shouldn't mind the Iconians going after the last vestiges of the Krenim. And if I recall the Voyager episode that introduced the Krenim, their ships timeline manipulation didn't always produce the desired effect.

burnsidhe · July 2015

After playing through Time in a Bottle once, I was immediately struck by the idea that the Iconians are the Borg all grown up. Pity the *ahem* timeline doesn't support that.

baddmoonrizin · July 2015

The way I understand it, the Krenim don't actually time travel per se. They can take themselves out of sync with the rest of the universe, and use their time weapon to retroactively obliterate entire civilizations from existence. Whereas, the Federation has had to physically travel back in time to alter events.

Anyway, where is Temporal Investigations in all this? Where is Daniels? Why aren't they trying to stop all of this? Or us? I mean, wiping out an entire civilization definitely goes against the Prime Directive, regardless of a state of war or not.

jexsamx · July 2015

All we need to do is displace the Iconians in time enough to fry their brains. Send them, say, a week into the future, or into a bubble in which time moves far faster than their biology is accustomed to. Boom, no more iconians, no far-reaching ramifications of erasing them from the timeline.

The question is whether or not it's going to become a plot point that we want to try to undo the massive death and destruction they've wrought until this point. If we try that, we'll end up in the Annorax trap, just making things worse every time. The answer is simple, we just need to accept what's happened and rebuild once we do the easy, obvious solution.

baddmoonrizin · July 2015

I'm still having a hard time with the Federation sanctioning the building of a weapon that effectively erases a species from ever having existed. It goes against every principle they hold dear. Chances are, there are other civilizations that the Iconians wiped out in ages past that could reappear if we go about wiping the Iconians from existence.

[Deleted User] · July 2015

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

I'm still having a hard time with the Federation sanctioning the building of a weapon that effectively erases a species from ever having existed. It goes against every principle they hold dear. Chances are, there are other civilizations that the Iconians wiped out in ages past that could reappear if we go about wiping the Iconians from existence.

Cryptic has a really bad habit of not fully thinking through the implications of their writing and mechanics. Remember, these are the people who write the Romulan Republic as being into peace and freedom and so forth, and then allow KDF Roms to sell prisoners of war into slavery (because they inherited their doff assignments from their "ally", an ally which frakking invaded them after Hobus lest we forget).

baddmoonrizin · July 2015

StarSword-C wrote: »

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

I'm still having a hard time with the Federation sanctioning the building of a weapon that effectively erases a species from ever having existed. It goes against every principle they hold dear. Chances are, there are other civilizations that the Iconians wiped out in ages past that could reappear if we go about wiping the Iconians from existence.

Cryptic has a really bad habit of not fully thinking through the implications of their writing and mechanics. Remember, these are the people who write the Romulan Republic as being into peace and freedom and so forth, and then allow KDF Roms to sell prisoners of war into slavery (because they inherited their doff assignments from their "ally", an ally which frakking invaded them after Hobus lest we forget).

Yes, well, I guess that depends on your point of view. The Klingons invaded and were at war with the Romulan STAR EMPIRE. The Romulan REPUBLIC is what developed from Spock's Unification Movement. They just took advantage of the Hobus disaster to finally set up an autonomous state. And so, the REPUBLIC hasn't actually been at war with anyone. Just fighting for survival against the RSE and the Elachi. Storyline-wise, the FED-KDF war is practically over, except for an official peace treaty, by the time New Romulus is established.

Your DOFFing PoW slaves argument holds, though. But then, I don't really agree with Klingons dealing in the slave trade. Doesn't really seem their style either. Anyway, that has more to with game mechanics and not making Romulans an independent faction to begin with.

It just seems that Cryptic is eager to shift into the next phase of things, and is trying to wrap up this storyline as quickly as possible to get to the next big thing. Unfortunately, the solution would appear to be to wipe out everything that has happened (storywise) and been built up over the past 5 years.

kristaswift · July 2015

How ironic..if this is really a MATRIX and ALL being played anyways by someone else

storules · July 2015

kristaswift wrote: »

How ironic..if this is really a MATRIX and ALL being played anyways by someone else

Very True!

qziqza · July 2015

ltminns wrote: »

What long-standing war? Unless I missed something the Krenim are trying to survive in the wake of the Vaadwaur assault as directed by the Iconians. I don't see any indication that this has been a multi-millenium struggle between the two.

the krenim have been getting assaulted by many species for a long long time.. its mentioned in 1 of the npc dialogues during the feature episode.. the Vaudwaar are just the last in a long line.

qziqza · July 2015

seannewboy wrote: »

This ship is going to settle the "Other" issue in the long run, but will first be stolen by the krenim, like the kobali ship was by the kobali kim. The krenim ship may be destroyed, but the tech will go into a solution that will create the situation where the "Other" can stop the current war as well as saving the Iconians. It may in fact also be a male Iconian.

im hoping the iconians do get saved.. i think they were created with a purpose, and the younger races, through jealousy or greed turned on them. for the iconians not to have been able to see that attack on their world coming till the last minute, and for the younger races to have been able to pull it off, im thinking it was us travelling back till then to prevent what is happening now, temporal paradox incoming lol. the big question is, who turned us against the iconians in the 1st place, and why?

ineluki71 · July 2015

I think we are all forgetting what Sela said in her transmissions. Iconains cannot time travel. It destroys their brains. Anyone else catch that?

EDIT: Not in her communications/transmissions. But I do remember her saying it at some time.

qziqza · July 2015

goodscotch wrote: »

No matter how dangerous the Iconians are, the Krenim have the capability to be equally destructive and dangerous. Their ships can change timelines and blast entire peoples into irrelevancy or non-existence. And the Alliance is cozying up to these guys and embracing...what...their ability to blast the Iconians into irrelevancy? Who will be the next victim of their timeline destroyer ship?

It seems to me that the Krenim have imposed the role of being God-like beings who can determine who should exist and how upon themselves. No wonder the Iconians want them out of the picture. The Alliance shouldn't mind the Iconians going after the last vestiges of the Krenim. And if I recall the Voyager episode that introduced the Krenim, their ships timeline manipulation didn't always produce the desired effect.

this is my thinking too.. i started wondering if maybe the krenim discovered the iconians while trying to restore their civilisation, there is clearly some kind of relationship there, but how, why or what....?? i can totally imagine the krenim having instigated the original attack on the iconians though (or are instigating the original attack on the iconians) do we have a hero and a nemesis thing going on? and if so who is which? i can understand the anger T'Ket feels, they have lived with the destruction of everything they had for a long long time, add to that the whole idea that the iconians were created as guardians or the like and the whole story is up on its head..

qziqza · July 2015

ineluki71 wrote: »

I think we are all forgetting what Sela said in her transmissions. Iconains cannot time travel. It destroys their brains. Anyone else catch that?

EDIT: Not in her communications/transmissions. But I do remember her saying it at some time.

i dont think it destroys their brains, they just cant retain any memory of the intervening time frame. the portal of time doodah had some dialogue on it as a delta recruit. also the iconians dont really need to travel through time for information or the like, they were already there 1st hand, they just can't go back and change anything. but.. if annorax couldn't actually travel through time, then the current krenim (and the current us) have yet to travel back in time to attack iconia for our 1st time, so i think this is what the iconians have been trying to prevent.. hence their dogmatic approach to eradicating the krenim, and trying to keep us other factions separated lol. i guess the reason the temporal police have yet to get involved, is because this is an aberration of the prime time line, and if the iconians can hold us off long enough, the original attack on iconia wont occur when it did, and time will correct itself.

ltminns · July 2015

Still nothing says there has been a long struggle between the Iconians and the Krenim. As far as we know only the Vaadwaur were directed against them by the Iconians. The other attacks on the Krenim earlier may very well be the result of a bunch of species fighting back against the Krenim Empire that had conquered them. You know the same sort of stuff that happened with the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire.

qziqza · July 2015

ltminns wrote: »

Still nothing says there has been a long struggle between the Iconians and the Krenim. As far as we know only the Vaadwaur were directed against them by the Iconians. The other attacks on the Krenim earlier may very well be the result of a bunch of species fighting back against the Krenim Empire that had conquered them. You know the same sort of stuff that happened with the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire.

cryptic are very obvious with their breadcrumbs.. if it is mentioned, it is mentioned for a reason, and the feature episode does have a lengthy bit of text on the whole hounded by many species over and over. it may be something or nothing.. but the iconians didnt just suddenly decide to focus everything on eradicating the krenim on a simple whim.. as the iconian queen said.. 'we stick to the plan'.. and that plan has been a very, very, long time in the making.

Iconians Vs Krenim? Us in the middle? Who is Playing Who?

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