Overhaul the exchange model ?

grazyc2 · July 2015

I hear a lot of complains about not finding the right weapons or ships or whatever on the exchange, should exchange be redone ? There is a wide complain other people ask ridiculous prices like a cannon they cost 2.000.000 EC or even higher or piece of armor for 7.000.000. so should there be a lock like you can ask so much for something ?

meimeitoo · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

* The Exchange definitely needs a wildcard search! Doesn't have to be a full regex engine, but I'd like to search on things like "[CrtD]x3 AND Antiproton AND dual-beam".

* The entire 'Filter on Rank' should just be removed: it's bugged as heck, and only causes problems.

* No cap required on what price ppl can ask. If someone wants to pay 7,000,000 for a Mk II phaser, let them: nobody is putting a gun to their head.

* Remove 500 mil cap. If I have the EC, I'd like to buy things, why not?

mirrorchaos · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

why fix something that isnt broken? sure it can be improved on. frankly the search system on the exchange can do with some TLC, its a bit of a mess. other then a lick of paint, it's good to go for another half a decade.

smeeinn1t · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

Search engine could do with a go over. Interface is OK'ish [sic] as is.

kyrrok · July 2015

Don't do nothing at all !!!

There are ways to improve the exchange but too often these improvements lead not only to bugs, but unintended consequences

daveyny · July 2015

"Don't Do Nothing At All" ....

Actually means... "Do Something..., Anything At All"

English is kinda funny that way.

jaguarskx · July 2015

The exchange could use a bit of an update like the above mentioned wild card search.

Regarding a pricing cap... I don't think it should be changed beyond the current 500 million cap. Lowering the cap simply means that certain items could be even harder to find because they will potentially not be able to find those items on the exchange. Instead they may need to seek out players willing to sell you the item you want. That could inflate prices.

For example, let's say there is a 50 million EC cap for anything listed on the Exchange. The Plasmonic Leech is currently selling for around 65 million EC. It is possible that some people will simply list the Leech for 50 million EC and be done with it. On the other hand, it could be that no one who has the Plasmonic Leech is will to "settle" for only 50 million EC. If you want one, then you need to seek out players who are willing to trade it to you. Say you find out that I have a Leech I am will to trade with you for EC. However, I do not want 65 million EC, instead I want 85 million EC. Don't want to buy from me? Okay, good luck finding someone else who has it and is willing to trade with you.

sheldonlcooper · July 2015

Don't do nothing at all !!!

Sure, improved search and organization would be nice, but on balance I say just leave it alone. Safest route.

dd1m · July 2015

It would be nice if a search would display more than 400 items, this would be helpful in locating stacks of an item where loads of people have post singles. Otherwise it would be better to leave it alone as its working pretty well at the moment

potasssium · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

I would like to be able to search prisoners by race, and other Doffs by a trait.

Also with the way some procs are listed would be nice to have wild card things so you can search for say, all Tetryons turrets with [thrust]

meimeitoo · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

daveyny wrote: »

"Don't Do Nothing At All" ....

Actually means... "Do Something..., Anything At All"

English is kinda funny that way.

Yeah, in English, the double-negation is a definite no-no. :P

angrytarg · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

Yes, definitely a wildcard search. Right now, the search is next to useless if you don't type the exact thing you are looking for. Also, a more in-depth search of DOFFs would be neat.

Other than that no reason toc hange anything. The outlandish prices people ask is a result of a player drivn economy. As long as someone will pay millions it will sell for millions. And frankly at the current state of the exchange you only calculate in millions anyway. If Cryptic would interfere with the exchange they'd destroy the player's economy.

frtoaster · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

jaguarskx wrote: »

Regarding a pricing cap... I don't think it should be changed beyond the current 500 million cap. Lowering the cap simply means that certain items could be even harder to find because they will potentially not be able to find those items on the exchange. Instead they may need to seek out players willing to sell you the item you want. That could inflate prices.

For example, let's say there is a 50 million EC cap for anything listed on the Exchange. The Plasmonic Leech is currently selling for around 65 million EC. It is possible that some people will simply list the Leech for 50 million EC and be done with it. On the other hand, it could be that no one who has the Plasmonic Leech is will to "settle" for only 50 million EC. If you want one, then you need to seek out players who are willing to trade it to you. Say you find out that I have a Leech I am will to trade with you for EC. However, I do not want 65 million EC, instead I want 85 million EC. Don't want to buy from me? Okay, good luck finding someone else who has it and is willing to trade with you.

This is something that people who keep suggesting price ceilings don't understand. Price ceilings wouldn't make expensive items affordable. Instead, the market for expensive items would move from the Exchange to private trades. If you put an EC cap on private trades, then people will start using master keys as a currency. If you put a cap on master keys, then people will switch to something else like contraband. If you put a cap on everything liquid enough to serve as a currency, then people will switch to a barter system: 10 plasmonic leech for 1 JHSS, and so on.

meimeitoo wrote: »

* The Exchange definitely needs a wildcard search! Doesn't have to be a full regex engine, but I'd like to search on things like "[CrtD]x3 AND Antiproton AND dual-beam".

jaguarskx wrote: »

The exchange could use a bit of an update like the above mentioned wild card search

potasssium wrote: »

I would like to be able to search prisoners by race, and other Doffs by a trait.

Also with the way some procs are listed would be nice to have wild card things so you can search for say, all Tetryons turrets with [thrust]

angrytarg wrote: »

Yes, definitely a wildcard search. Right now, the search is next to useless if you don't type the exact thing you are looking for. Also, a more in-depth search of DOFFs would be neat.

I don't think you want an actual wildcard search. Searches with wildcards at the beginning or middle of a search term can't take advantage of database indexes, which could result in a slow query. And I doubt regexes play well at all with database indexes. (I'm assuming Cryptic is using a SQL-based search. A dev can correct me if I'm wrong.) The Exchange search actually includes wildcards right now, at the beginning and the end. I suspect that's why Cryptic has problems with the "All" category. They found queries against "All" to be too slow, so they made some ad hoc change to improve performance, and that created several bugs.

Holodeck ticket 3,411,570: Exchange does not show all items in "All" Category

The best solution would be to switch from a SQL-based search to a modern search engine, but as I said before, I doubt Cryptic has the resources to pull it off.

frtoaster wrote: »

I've suggested before how to improve the Exchange search, but I don't think anyone understood what I was saying.

First, to clear up any confusion, STO's Exchange search does not require an exact match. It requires that what you type in the search box be a case insensitive substring of the item name. For example, searching for "beam array mk xii" would work, but searching for "phaser beam array xii" would not. The second query should be more specific than the first, but the second query returns no results because it's missing the "mk" in front of "xii". Of course, anyone who plays this game could tell you that "xii" must be referring to the mark, but the Exchange is too dumb to know that.

My guess is that they are using a SQL-based search. For example, if you search for "Antiproton Mag Regulator Mk XII" under the category "Ship Console - Tactical", then the Exchange probably contructs a query like this:

SELECT *
FROM exchange_table
WHERE item_name like '%Antiproton Mag Regulator Mk XII%'
AND category = 'Ship Console - Tactical'

Modern search engines don't work this way. They use an inverted index to perform full-text searches. If the Exchange search were built like a modern search engine, then even with only the search bar and no categories or filters, I should be able to find all very rare fabrication engineers with the "Resolve" trait by searching for "fabrication engineer very rare resolve". The reason is that all information about the item---the name, quality, rank, traits, and description---would be indexed. There are open-source search engines available (see the links below), but Cryptic would need a programmer to integrate one of them into the the game.

http://lucene.apache.org/
http://lucene.apache.org/solr/
http://sphinxsearch.com/

That being said, I don't expect to see a modern search engine in this game, because they can't even bother to fix the bugs in their current search engine.

sovereign47 · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

Ok, here are the changes I would do:

- remove or increase limit of max. 400 shown items during search
- remove or increase limit of being able to put only 40 items on exchange
- make more detailed search options (for example: If I'm looking for phaser weapons, it would be nice to have option to list only those)

Btw I voted for first option.

szim · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

The current exchange is a mess.

-subcategories are listed in the main index (for example "modules")
-many items don't even have a category yet despite being in the game for years (for example boosts, fleets ship modules etc)
-the "search all" function is STILL broken

I would really like to have a more versatile search function. Typing in "phaser xii [crtd]x3" should list all types of phasers (arrays, cannons, turrets etc) that match these properties. It should also be possible to search for doffs based on a certain trait (for example research lab scientist -> logic), and the same should be possible for boffs.

foxrockssocks · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

It really needs better searching and categorizing functionality. But trying to directly interfere in the market pricing would be a very bad idea.

It is an issue that things have such expensive prices, but that ties into the availability of the item versus its demand. It is more than a little ludicrous to hear people suggest that a Fed should pick up a plasmonic leech console, for example, because the supply is just absolutely tiny, and that gets reflected in the extreme prices. They may as well not exist for the overwhelming majority of players. But you cannot possibly fix that problem with price capping, the supply is simply not there. It would be first come, first serve, and after that, they are just gone.

ltminns · July 2015

Fix searching especially for Doffs and Boffs for traits, gender, etc. And mods for weapons. Definitely wild card. Don't cap prices. We need to allow people to be able to express their inner <REDACTED> to mimic the real world traits that have made the state of affairs the bright and shining success for all.

cidjack · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

sovereign47 wrote: »

Ok, here are the changes I would do:

- remove or increase limit of max. 400 shown items during search
- remove or increase limit of being able to put only 40 items on exchange
- make more detailed search options (for example: If I'm looking for phaser weapons, it would be nice to have option to list only those)

Btw I voted for first option.

I do support the ability to post more than 40 items at a time. When I have 300 common doffs I want to unload, I should be able to post them all out there so I can sell them quickly. It would give me the ability to crowd out other players trying to sell the same doffs.

crm14916 · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

Agree with meimeitoo's suggestion of adding the ability to do wildcard searches. Otherwise, don't change much. Sales caps are a no no... Don't cap anything. If they ask that much for an item, and someone is willing to pay it, go for it...

CM

warmaker001b · July 2015

The choice I want isn't there.

Redo the interface and search engine, remove the caps.

askray · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

I agree it needs to be redone interface wise, but as for putting a cap on item prices? Nope.

It's not their fault people will pay insane prices for things. If people wouldn't purchase at those prices, then those prices wouldn't exist. Economics people

lagomorphic · July 2015

For a demonstration of what happens when you cap prices you just need to look back to the the pre-DR crash days when the going rate of bugships went over 500 mil. The cap didn't force folks to sell them for less it just kept them off the exchange entirely. So we could price cap everything at 10 mil but that's not gonna make things easier for anyone it's just going to keep all kinds of useful items off the exchange.

This of course means that you have to buy those things directly off of other players in zone/trade channels. That's going to lead to some chatty hard to use channels. It also means you can't use the exchange to check going rates for things so basically you're just going to get ripped off constantly trying to buy anything.

So explain to me again how this is supposed to help anyone?

meimeitoo · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

lagomorphic wrote: »

For a demonstration of what happens when you cap prices you just need to look back to the the pre-DR crash days when the going rate of bugships went over 500 mil. The cap didn't force folks to sell them for less it just kept them off the exchange entirely. So we could price cap everything at 10 mil but that's not gonna make things easier for anyone it's just going to keep all kinds of useful items off the exchange.

This of course means that you have to buy those things directly off of other players in zone/trade channels. That's going to lead to some chatty hard to use channels. It also means you can't use the exchange to check going rates for things so basically you're just going to get ripped off constantly trying to buy anything.

So explain to me again how this is supposed to help anyone?

^^ This person gets it. Hear ye him!

grazyc2 · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

What I would like and I think I speak for more than one person when I say I want to search packed items or single items that would be already helpful on exchange, furthermore I understand people want to have stuff the easy way and go for exchange to find it, and other people want to sell a cannon and go berzerk on the asking price, while selling your stuff to an NPC on a drydock doesn't give you as much. I think those NPC should give out higher prizes on the sell and not be nerfed like the last time cryptic did this. If the NPC is giving out a good prize a lot of junk would not be found on exchange if they even nerfed more than they already did more people will sell junk on exchange.... and so on and so on...

warmaker001b · July 2015

lagomorphic wrote: »

For a demonstration of what happens when you cap prices you just need to look back to the the pre-DR crash days when the going rate of bugships went over 500 mil. The cap didn't force folks to sell them for less it just kept them off the exchange entirely. So we could price cap everything at 10 mil but that's not gonna make things easier for anyone it's just going to keep all kinds of useful items off the exchange.

This of course means that you have to buy those things directly off of other players in zone/trade channels. That's going to lead to some chatty hard to use channels. It also means you can't use the exchange to check going rates for things so basically you're just going to get ripped off constantly trying to buy anything.

So explain to me again how this is supposed to help anyone?

Quite right on that. The removal of the cap on the exchange would remove that aspect of selling and let business be done on... You know... With the Exchange.

Could be worse. There was someone on this forum that was trying to make the cap on the Exchange limited to 40k EC

mustrumridcully0 · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

I think some interface improvements and organization improvements would be good.

I think every item needs to be classified well, and I would probably prefer if some stuff like mods and items could be searched for a bit more reliably. An interface improvement could allow that without requiring to use wildcards (which, as someone else pointed out, are not very efficient when it comes to database searches).

For example, if you pick something from the "Weapon" category, it could allow you additional filters for "Modifier" and "Energy/Projectile Type".

meimeitoo wrote: »

daveyny wrote: »

"Don't Do Nothing At All" ....

Actually means... "Do Something..., Anything At All"

English is kinda funny that way.

Yeah, in English, the double-negation is a definite no-no. :P

I totally didn't see what you didn't do there.

---

Also, while I understand that some people really think the prices of some items on the Exchange are excessive and want to reduce them, consider this:
Getting a lockbox ship or other highly sought after lockbox item can requires master keys worth hundreds of Dollars. Sure, some people are lucky and get it on their 3rd try, but most are not, and the guy that was lucky and got it on the 3rd try and is selling it to you for 100 Million EC is still ensuring that you don't need to spend hundreds of Dollars.

No matter how little you wish to spend 100 Million EC for a Xini Escort, I bet your willingness to spend 200+ $ on it is even lower, and the 100 Million EC will guarantee that Escort, the 200+ $ do not.

If the exchange didn't allow the prices it did, how likely do you think it really is that people would risk spending so much money on getting lockbox ships and offering them for sale?

kittyflofy · July 2015

Don't do nothing at all !!!

Honestly, the exchange works more or less, but it works. Please, cryptic dont "try" to improve something if we know you are going to make it worst... let it be!!! lol.

sovereign47 · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

Forgot to mention one more annoying thing and that is exchange sale expiry. That needs to be removed entirely. I'm sick of taking back dozens of items one by one, and then putting them back to exchange again one by one.

smeeinn1t · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

sovereign47 wrote: »

Forgot to mention one more annoying thing and that is exchange sale expiry. That needs to be removed entirely. I'm sick of taking back dozens of items one by one, and then putting them back to exchange again one by one.

Without this the exchange DB would fill with dead sales and become a secondary bank, just post something for a ridiculously high price and let it sit there until removed.

Pure chaos...

kittyflofy · July 2015

Don't do nothing at all !!!

sovereign47 wrote: »

Forgot to mention one more annoying thing and that is exchange sale expiry. That needs to be removed entirely. I'm sick of taking back dozens of items one by one, and then putting them back to exchange again one by one.

Yeah, this makes totally non sense. Almost any single exchange system has spire issues. It is how these systems works. Oh yeah, lets place em everything we want for infinite time... lol. That will be a total chaos in the exchange system. The only thing that "forces" players to not abuse the exchange system is precisely this feature.

grazyc2 · July 2015

Redo only the interface and search engine

I hate the fact that some people want to sell quick and go under the price for even 30 K just to sell it, And without that they don't sell one item no 30 pieces at once because they need EC so badly.... mmmm to bad I think then your loss big time...

Overhaul the exchange model ?

Overhaul the exchange model ? 121 votes

Comments