Those of us who support the RSE are simply realists. We know the nature of the raptor. We know it can't be tamed. It can't be broken. And just like Jurassic Park, when the Romulan Republic think they have control -- that is when the illusion will very quickly fade and we'll see D'Tan hiding in a bathroom from a Voth dinosaur-like creature with lasers attached to its forehead...
Optimus Prime would like to have a word with you in the alley.
But, in seriousness, claiming that "Romulans will always be Romulans", that the RSE is embbed in our genetic code or something, is an example of hte No True Scotsman fallacy. There is no such thing as a "True Romulan". Romulans left Vulcan 2000 years ago to avoid an oppressive monoculture imposed on them. Why would we allow the same thing now? Dictatorship and a police state is as inevitable in Romulan culture as the desire to juggle coconuts will riding a unicycle.
Those that support the RSE are simple nostalgists, devoted to an outdated and obsolete system that thrives by crushing hte Romulan spirit and trying to shape it to the benefit of the ruling class.
Optimus Prime would like to have a word with you in the alley.
But, in seriousness, claiming that "Romulans will always be Romulans", that the RSE is embbed in our genetic code or something, is an example of hte No True Scotsman fallacy. There is no such thing as a "True Romulan". Romulans left Vulcan 2000 years ago to avoid an oppressive monoculture imposed on them. Why would we allow the same thing now? Dictatorship and a police state is as inevitable in Romulan culture as the desire to juggle coconuts will riding a unicycle.
Those that support the RSE are simple nostalgists, devoted to an outdated and obsolete system that thrives by crushing hte Romulan spirit and trying to shape it to the benefit of the ruling class.
It is embedded in our genetic code. We are predisposed to much of what I just stated. It is in our nature. You simply do not shrug off a few thousand years of evolution and say you are holding yourself to a higher moral standard within the span of a year or two.
If Romulans left an oppressive monoculture imposed on them 2,000 years ago. Then they are born and bred from a people predisposed to oppressive monocultures.
You simply do not up and decide one day you are no longer Romulan. You can not escape your history, you can not escape nature. You can decide where you go from here, but the Romulan people have prospered through the very horrific acts the Romulan Republic are trying to eradicate.
The RSE may be in a temporary setback, but you can not destroy an idea. The RSE lives in the DNA of every Romulan because every Romulan has evolved from a people with a natural tendency to be oppressive.
This is why we are nostalgic for the days of the RSE. We embrace our heritage. We embrace the power we once held. There was no Romulan Republic during the Earth-Romulan War. There was no Romulan Republic during the Dominion War.
The Romulan Republic is a child rebelling against its parents. In time, they will learn as they mature... they can't escape who they are. If they do not become a new RSE, they will simply become another oppressive state -- and the cycle will begin again.
It is embedded in our genetic code. We are predisposed to much of what I just stated. It is in our nature. You simply do not shrug off a few thousand years of evolution and say you are holding yourself to a higher moral standard within the span of a year or two.
If Romulans left an oppressive monoculture imposed on them 2,000 years ago. Then they are born and bred from a people predisposed to oppressive monocultures.
You simply do not up and decide one day you are no longer Romulan. You can not escape your history, you can not escape nature. You can decide where you go from here, but the Romulan people have prospered through the very horrific acts the Romulan Republic are trying to eradicate.
The RSE may be in a temporary setback, but you can not destroy an idea. The RSE lives in the DNA of every Romulan because every Romulan has evolved from a people with a natural tendency to be oppressive.
This is why we are nostalgic for the days of the RSE. We embrace our heritage. We embrace the power we once held. There was no Romulan Republic during the Earth-Romulan War. There was no Romulan Republic during the Dominion War.
The Romulan Republic is a child rebelling against its parents. In time, they will learn as they mature... they can't escape who they are. If they do not become a new RSE, they will simply become another oppressive state -- and the cycle will begin again.
If you believe that, then i have a wonderful screen door equipped submarine you will just love.
Oppression and totaltarianism are not encoded in DNA. They are the conceit of a few wicked people who find ways to coerce their fellows into submiting. The Romulans left Vulcan because we would not be coerced. We overthrew T'Rehu because we would not be coerced. We brought down Dralath because we would not be coerced. And we overthrew the Star Empire because we would not be coerved. If the Romulan people have a history of anything, it is rebelling against those who would lead them to misery and oppression.
It is embedded in our genetic code. We are predisposed to much of what I just stated. It is in our nature. You simply do not shrug off a few thousand years of evolution and say you are holding yourself to a higher moral standard within the span of a year or two.
If Romulans left an oppressive monoculture imposed on them 2,000 years ago. Then they are born and bred from a people predisposed to oppressive monocultures.
You simply do not up and decide one day you are no longer Romulan. You can not escape your history, you can not escape nature. You can decide where you go from here, but the Romulan people have prospered through the very horrific acts the Romulan Republic are trying to eradicate.
The RSE may be in a temporary setback, but you can not destroy an idea. The RSE lives in the DNA of every Romulan because every Romulan has evolved from a people with a natural tendency to be oppressive.
This is why we are nostalgic for the days of the RSE. We embrace our heritage. We embrace the power we once held. There was no Romulan Republic during the Earth-Romulan War. There was no Romulan Republic during the Dominion War.
The Romulan Republic is a child rebelling against its parents. In time, they will learn as they mature... they can't escape who they are. If they do not become a new RSE, they will simply become another oppressive state -- and the cycle will begin again.
ummm LOLWUT? I dont know what you're smoking but you need to stop now... Claiming that Romulans and Vulcans have very deep passions and, at times, difficulty controlling those passions.. we can call that a reference to genetics, especially as Im sure geneticists in the Trek-verse could cough up 10 miles of technobabbly why our race(s) are so. You're referencing culture not genetics, sure culture has inertia too but not what you're describing....
It is embedded in our genetic code. We are predisposed to much of what I just stated. It is in our nature. You simply do not shrug off a few thousand years of evolution and say you are holding yourself to a higher moral standard within the span of a year or two.
If Romulans left an oppressive monoculture imposed on them 2,000 years ago. Then they are born and bred from a people predisposed to oppressive monocultures.
You simply do not up and decide one day you are no longer Romulan. You can not escape your history, you can not escape nature. You can decide where you go from here, but the Romulan people have prospered through the very horrific acts the Romulan Republic are trying to eradicate.
The RSE may be in a temporary setback, but you can not destroy an idea. The RSE lives in the DNA of every Romulan because every Romulan has evolved from a people with a natural tendency to be oppressive.
This is why we are nostalgic for the days of the RSE. We embrace our heritage. We embrace the power we once held. There was no Romulan Republic during the Earth-Romulan War. There was no Romulan Republic during the Dominion War.
The Romulan Republic is a child rebelling against its parents. In time, they will learn as they mature... they can't escape who they are. If they do not become a new RSE, they will simply become another oppressive state -- and the cycle will begin again.
First of all, the average Romulan lifespan is 250 years. Romulans are adults at the same age as Humans and Vulcans (around 17-21 years of age). There are Romulans alive in 2410 who were already alive and mature when the oppressive regime came into existence. 2267 (date of TEI) was 143 years ago. The Star Empire was not oppressive at that time. While an empire will have decadent and maniacal leaders from time to time (and the RSE did have such leaders over the course of its history, gradually increasing in frequency as time passed), it's not exclusive; an empire will also have more competent and compassionate leaders, until and unless the government descends into the kind of mediocrity, incompetence, decadence, apathy, and amoral Machiavellianism characteristic of an oppressive regime. Point being, claiming that Romulans have been conditioned to be slavish, simpering, cowed "subjects" for "a few thousand years" betrays an ignorance of Romulan history, and characterizing the change into such a situation as "evolution" is rather outrageous.
The RSE did not begin its descent into an oppressive police state until the Tal'Shiar was founded in 2344. It's now 2410. That's a mere 66 years, and that's not sufficient time to condition a people to acceptance of such a situation for a people who live an average of 250 years, even if the situation started the moment that the Tal'Shiar was established (and it did not). A person who was 39 and commanding a wing of Romulan vessels in 2268 would be 181 years old, and thus still significantly younger than dotage would set in. People of this age would be among the most likely to resist and rebel, as would the next generation raised by such people (and some of that next generation were born as recently as 40 years ago).
Going back further, the Star Empire was established in A.D. 938, after a period of colonial expansion. Prior to that, the government was a Confederation of City-States, and before that, it was a Tribal Confederacy, much like Vulcan was in the past. Before you get excited about the age of the Star Empire as having been founded in 928, bear in mind that the Senate abolished the office of Emperor/Empress in 1698, and the office was not restored until circa 1875. Even after that, there were periods in which the Star Empire was governed, not by an Emperor or Empress, but by a Praetor or group of Praetors (at various times, the Praetorate was divided among as many as 12 people). Several thousand years? Not even close. The Romulans didn't even leave Vulcan before about 2000 years ago, and for the first 938 years, there was no Empire of any sort. A brief reign by the Mad Queen (Vriha t'Rehu) was fairly quickly brought to an end (it lasted a grand total of 18 years), after which ensued six-hundred years of prosperity, peace, and liberty before the establishment of the Star Empire.
The Vulcan establishment was also not always oppressive; that began when politicians got their hands on Surak's philosophy and turned it into a religion, which they then tried to impose on the entire planet, but were never successful until after they succeeded in driving the dissenters to leave the planet. Even then, there were those Vulcans who held true to the original teachings of Surak as philosophy, rather than religion.
If you want to make claims about history, it's helpful to have some idea of what that history was.
Going back further, the Star Empire was established in A.D. 938, after a period of colonial expansion. Prior to that, the government was a Confederation of City-States, and before that, it was a Tribal Confederacy, much like Vulcan was in the past. Before you get excited about the age of the Star Empire as having been founded in 928, bear in mind that the Senate abolished the office of Emperor/Empress in 1698, and the office was not restored until circa 1875. Even after that, there were periods in which the Star Empire was governed, not by an Emperor or Empress, but by a Praetor or group of Praetors (at various times, the Praetorate was divided among as many as 12 people). Several thousand years? Not even close. The Romulans didn't even leave Vulcan before about 2000 years ago, and for the first 938 years, there was no Empire of any sort. A brief reign by the Mad Queen (Vriha t'Rehu) was fairly quickly brought to an end (it lasted a grand total of 18 years), after which ensued six-hundred years of prosperity, peace, and liberty before the establishment of the Star Empire.
The Vulcan establishment was also not always oppressive; that began when politicians got their hands on Surak's philosophy and turned it into a religion, which they then tried to impose on the entire planet, but were never successful until after they succeeded in driving the dissenters to leave the planet. Even then, there were those Vulcans who held true to the original teachings of Surak as philosophy, rather than religion.
If you want to make claims about history, it's helpful to have some idea of what that history was.
I wasn't aware there was such an in-depth back story on the Romulans.
Could you possibly suggest some reading material on this subject?
I wasn't aware there was such an in-depth back story on the Romulans.
Could you possibly suggest some reading material on this subject?
Thanks in advance.
Beyond hte Obvious, there is the Rihannsu series, and Vulcan's Soul trilogy, and Vulcan's Heart. All of them have greater depth and insightrs than the shows are able to go to in most cases. Excellent reads, and essential for anyone who wants to play a ROmulan.
Beyond hte Obvious, there is the Rihannsu series, and Vulcan's Soul trilogy, and Vulcan's Heart. All of them have greater depth and insightrs than the shows are able to go to in most cases. Excellent reads, and essential for anyone who wants to play a ROmulan.
and completely non-canon even it they are good, and about the only source of info
Excellent reads, and essential for anyone who wants to play a ROmulan.
Forgive me to disagree, but I don't think they are essential. Great read, and worth it, with nice little references dropped here and there in the game, but hardly necessary to play a Romulan in the game.
there are also several wikis/sites that explain romulan history and infos ..and they could be enough for playing.
But,yes,reading those books is an extra that is nice to have.
Forgive me to disagree, but I don't think they are essential. Great read, and worth it, with nice little references dropped here and there in the game, but hardly necessary to play a Romulan in the game.
My apologies for the use of hyperbole milud. Won't happen again.
My apologies for the use of hyperbole milud. Won't happen again.
Hehe :P
I don't know how easy it is to get a hold of these days, but my personal reference guide is Last Unicorn Games's The Way of D'era Romulan sourcebook. If you ignore some of the (IMO) poor artwork (Ships of the Raptor chapter, I'm looking at you!) I think it's a nicely balanced and quite competent insight to the TNG Romulan interpretation. Admittedly, it does somewhat glorify the Tal Shiar in places, but their views on the Romulan mindset has served me well for RPing as an Imperial Romulan in the vein of Toreth et al.
What is also does, and I don't recall if other sources do this, is detail what 'urgent matters' the Star Empire were concerned with between the Khitomer Masscare and their re-emergence in 2364 - their war with the technologically superior Taurhai Unity. The Taurhai reads a little fan-fictiony, but toned down a little, they make an interesting foe of the Romulan way of life.
All in all, I thumb through it from time to time just to refresh my one-dimensional villainry.
My apologies for the use of hyperbole milud. Won't happen again.
Hehe :P
I don't know how easy it is to get a hold of these days, but my personal reference guide is Last Unicorn Games's The Way of D'era Romulan sourcebook. If you ignore some of the (IMO) poor artwork (Ships of the Raptor chapter, I'm looking at you!) I think it's a nicely balanced and quite competent insight to the TNG Romulan interpretation. Admittedly, it does somewhat glorify the Tal Shiar in places, but their views on the Romulan mindset has served me well for RPing as an Imperial Romulan in the vein of Toreth et al.
What is also does, and I don't recall if other sources do this, is detail what 'urgent matters' the Star Empire were concerned with between the Khitomer Masscare and their re-emergence in 2364 - their war with the technologically superior Taurhai Unity. The Taurhai reads a little fan-fictiony, but toned down a little, they make an interesting foe of the Romulan way of life.
All in all, I thumb through it from time to time just to refresh my one-dimensional villainry.
I have noticed that many pro-RSE players seem to have LUG as an inspiration. I certainly have and have read The Way of D'era (and in fact, I've been re-reading it recently as part of the research I'm doing for my discussion of a Vulcan/Romulan/Reman history of ideas), but it just doesn't jibe with the Romulans from my earliest memories, and seems to totally ignore any of the work done by Ms. Duane, even going so far as to invent its own bastardized Latin to be used as a "Romulan" language. For LUG, Romulans are nearly exclusively villainous, such that even the supposedly good ones come off more like enlightened narcissists than anyone who might be considered ethically praiseworthy.
... after which ensued six-hundred years of prosperity, peace, and liberty before the establishment of the Star Empire.
Well, peace, where the Rihannsu are concerned, is a fluid concept. If you mean a general lack of planetary-scale warfare, then sure.
I meant that more in terms of no attempted conquest of other worlds; there would have been at least a few tribal skirmishes, and, in light of the Vulcan's X stuff and my own take on Romulan/Reman history based on TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, the various movies, the Rihannsu saga, "The Way of D'era," and assorted other sources (both ridiculous and sublime), I would say there would have been plenty of struggles of a more sectarian and less tribal nature.
The Rihannsu series is a really good read for general knowledge on the Romulans, for sure. A lot of the basics are available by crawling through pages on Memory Beta as well, if you can't get access to the books or just want the details without story.
For STO, I'd go as far as saying it's fair to call it nearly-essential reading. Cryptic took a lot of inspiration from Rihannsu-style Romulans, including the language, history references, and so on. Not everyone will agree with including that, of course, but it does shed light on the way Cyptic's been portraying Romulans and why there are several of us that agree with that interpretation.
My apologies for the use of hyperbole milud. Won't happen again.
Hehe :P
I don't know how easy it is to get a hold of these days, but my personal reference guide is Last Unicorn Games's The Way of D'era Romulan sourcebook. If you ignore some of the (IMO) poor artwork (Ships of the Raptor chapter, I'm looking at you!) I think it's a nicely balanced and quite competent insight to the TNG Romulan interpretation. Admittedly, it does somewhat glorify the Tal Shiar in places, but their views on the Romulan mindset has served me well for RPing as an Imperial Romulan in the vein of Toreth et al.
What is also does, and I don't recall if other sources do this, is detail what 'urgent matters' the Star Empire were concerned with between the Khitomer Masscare and their re-emergence in 2364 - their war with the technologically superior Taurhai Unity. The Taurhai reads a little fan-fictiony, but toned down a little, they make an interesting foe of the Romulan way of life.
All in all, I thumb through it from time to time just to refresh my one-dimensional villainry.
I have noticed that many pro-RSE players seem to have LUG as an inspiration. I certainly have and have read The Way of D'era (and in fact, I've been re-reading it recently as part of the research I'm doing for my discussion of a Vulcan/Romulan/Reman history of ideas), but it just doesn't jibe with the Romulans from my earliest memories, and seems to totally ignore any of the work done by Ms. Duane, even going so far as to invent its own bastardized Latin to be used as a "Romulan" language. For LUG, Romulans are nearly exclusively villainous, such that even the supposedly good ones come off more like enlightened narcissists than anyone who might be considered ethically praiseworthy.
I'm anti-RSE, but I've used LUG as a historical reference for some of my background material and writing, because among other things the version of the RSE government depicted in the LUG RPG matches the post-TNG canon version better: i.e. instead of the Senate and Praetorate being different chambers of a tricameral legislature, TNG-on seem to depict a unicameral parliamentary system, with a single praetor as prime minister.
My version of the RSE government as depicted in "Flaihhsam s'Spahkh" (the short story I wrote for Unofficial Literary Challenge 9) ended up as somewhat of a synthesis of the two versions: the TNG/LUG parliament-style Senate, with political voting blocs borrowed from The Way of D'era, but as in Diane Duane only the noble houses actually have representation, and the senators are all heads of houses.
I do wish that instead of the regular Fed/KDF alliance setup, they hada Romulan Empire line path, with more exclusive ships in Tal Shiar-like dressing (Borg Adapted) as well as in regular Romulan styles, Imperial/Tal Shiar wear, and would focus on the player swearing loyalty to Sela and rising through the ranks, temporarily joining the Tal Shiar only to gradually see the madness in Hakeev's and Taris' plans and report back to Sela about them, and eventually working to stop them, though they'd only be witness to Hakeev's execution by Obeisk/Republic Romulan before retreating to aid Sela.
As far as cooperating with the other factions for faction agnostic missions, it's mainly due to needing to find out more about what's going on with the Iconians as well as trying to temporarily build alliances until Sela is recovered, then follow her decisions. And on the side, do something similar to the Iconian relic bit exclusive to DR players; except instead as an Imperial Romulan, you discreetly steal some data concerning your allies and your enemies in some missions.
As well, have some unique dialogue that shows you don't really give a dam-n about the groups your aiding, but just doing it because Iconians and Sela is your primary concern. Such as in Dust to Dust, you'd insult the Samsar captain when storming the temple solo (telling him how worthless they are despite all the memories of the dead they have that they could have relied on to fight back), tell Jhetlya and Kim to shut up with their arguments or you'll just strand them in the maze or pit room, and either punch out Keten or bluntly tell him he died, he's mutating, and he cannot go back.
The Delta Recruit campaign showed they can go back and come up with some unique personalization of missions for a specific group, so I don't see why they can't show things from the Imperial side now. As well, add faction-specific optionals that have different results, similar to the old class-specific optionals.
I assume that there is some kind of forum-RP going on here, otherwise I am baffled that somebody would even consider linking forms of government and genetics in a thought. Just in case this is meant sincerly: That's not how that works...
@ Topic, since the other one was rudely locked:
In my opinion the RR is far from being considered stable or safe. In the locked thread I made a comparision of the RR to the Republic of Weimar (Germany after the November Revolution in 1918). This new free and democratic society wasn't able to support itself and was quickly decomposed by anti-democratic groups (not only Nationalsocialists but the whole spectrum) which, as everybody knows, lead to Hitler being declared Reichspräsident.
The RR is likely to be infiltrated and manipulated by one of the many splinter groups remaining (Tal'Shiar, Loyalists and I personally (but that's specualtion) think that a lot of local governours likely started their own 'minifaction', not to mention all the big evils in STO which basically manipulate everything), supported by the strong nationalistic (some might call it 'patriotic', but that's just my opinion) and isolationist tendencies we already see in-game. It is one possibility of the alliance falling apart and the Romulans resuming where the RSE left off, maybe this time without the Tal'Shiar, I can see that.
Regarding the the Tal'Shiar thing, we don't know how long they are around. Novel sources are irrelevant when discussing canon or canonical topics for STO, as long as STO doesn't explicitly state they use these dates. Show canon (ENT - which I despise but we have to go with it since STO draws - I dare to say - primarily from it) indicates that the Tal'Shiar has beena round basically always.
EDIT: I have to apologize, the ENT reference seems to have been in novel form as well (I really don't like ENT and don't keep track of it that well . The 2344 thing is still nebulous, though. I agree that it wasn't around in TOS, simply because it hasn't been invented at that point (just like Section 31, btw. There was no S31 prior to DS9 period.). Since when it was around, though, nobody knows.
Post edited by angrytarg on
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Regarding the the Tal'Shiar thing, we don't know how long they are around. Novel sources are irrelevant when discussing canon or canonical topics for STO, as long as STO doesn't explicitly state they use these dates. Show canon (ENT - which I despise but we have to go with it since STO draws - I dare to say - primarily from it) indicates that the Tal'Shiar has beena round basically always.
EDIT: I have to apologize, the ENT reference seems to have been in novel form as well (I really don't like ENT and don't keep track of it that well . The 2344 thing is still nebulous, though. I agree that it wasn't around in TOS, simply because it hasn't been invented at that point (just like Section 31, btw. There was no S31 prior to DS9 period.). Since when it was around, though, nobody knows.
Do not conflate Romulan Intelligence with the Tal'Shiar. In the novel, the Tal'Shiar was established in 2344 to replace the older, corrupt civilian intelligence organization, and started out well enough, but it wasn't very long before the corruption found its way into the Tal'Shiar as well. In other words, there was (and it's only logical that there was, novel notwithstanding) a civilian intelligence organization as far back as ENT, but no name was ever given in hard canon until TNG, at which point, the name Tal Shiar was used, and the idea that the Tal'Shiar was Romulan Intelligence prior to 2344 is, at best, an assumption without any support in hard canon. The establishment of the Tal'Shiar at some time between the end of TAS and the beginning of TNG is the best and most likely explanation for the change in the attitude of the Romulan government in that interim, whether that explanation be hard or soft canon. Otherwise, you're going to have to come up with some other explanation, which would be "fanon," and if you're rejecting soft canon, then going with fanon seems a bit ... well, ... odd. Soft canon is at least licensed. Fanon is not.
"The Tal Shiar was known to exist as far back as 2155 which meant that it predated the creation of the Federation. (ENTnovel: Kobayashi Maru) During the Earth-Romulan War, the Tal Shiar was known to have saturated the Coalition of Planets newsnets in order to gather intelligence on their enemy in the conflict. (ENTnovel: Beneath the Raptor's Wing) Starfleet can confirm its existence to the late 23rd century, when the Tal Shiar or its immediate predecessor) performed a number of covertly dangerous operations against Starfleet and the Federation.
Editorial Note: Sources conflict on the origin of the Tal Shiar. In the novel Vulcan's Heart it was created in 2344 to replace the corrupt existing intelligence apparatus (see the passage quoted above). Other sources, such the ENT novel Kobayashi Maru, specifically refer to Romulan Intelligence as the Tal Shiar as early as the 2150s. Given the conflicts, contributors to this page are encouraged to distinguish between instances where the Tal Shiar is specifically named versus cases that involve Romulan intelligence organizations but do not use the term "Tal Shiar".
Considering the ENT novels are, generally, considered the official intention to continue the ST:Enterprise series (in the same way the DS9 Relaunch novels are, for better or worse!), and deal - quite explicitly - with the Earth-Romulan War, I am inclined to accept the new 'status quo' that the Tal Shiar operated at least from 2155.
The question is... is the Tal Shiar of the 2150s the same organisation which existed from 2344? Obviously there is a disconnect between these 'milestones', and so I currently prefer to consider the lineage as thus (apologies for the rough/rushed nature - I am typing this at work!):
2150s - the Tal Shiar operates as the historical Romulan intelligence apparatus of the Romulan Star Empire. This incarnation is not insular, per se - but rather operates under an 'open secret' amongst the people, much as the CIA/NSA is well known to be an 'benevolent' intelligence agency (I make no further comment) tasked with the safety of the Empire. Its members are well-respected, and their modus operandi is efficient, righteous and never cruel to its own people. During the Earth-Romulan War, the Tal Shiar, for the first time in its history, recruits and mobilises in unprecedented numbers, infiltrating Earth and its allies.
2160 - following the defeat of the Empire by Earth forces, the Tal Shiar is (partially?) blamed for this outcome (be it through poor organisation, or other scapegoat accusations), and is abolished through to popular revolt which also forces political change (ergo, the transition from the ENT/TNG vision of Romulus to the TOS incarnation of the Star Empire). The Tal Shiar itself is replaced by a civilian organisation ("Romulan Intelligence") that reflects the new government, away from conquest and expansion and towards the cultural enrichment of its existing territories.
circa 2260s- for whatever reason, the Romulan Star Empire decides to test (and obliterate) Federation defences with their new cloaking bird of prey prototype. Failure, and loss, rocks the government again, and there are calls to avenge the deaths of loyal Empire service personnel. Resisting protests for an all-out militarisation, and led by briefings from Romulan Intelligence, the Star Empire enters a mutually beneficial Alliance with the Federation's other rival, the Klingon Empire. In this way, the Star Empire is militarised by proxy, directing Klingon ferocity upon the UFP while largely keeping their own society unblemished.
[Dissolution of Alliance - work in progress]
2311 - the Tomed Incident forces another regime change to that of a more hard-line, but still largely benevolent, government. Corruption and rot of the civilian Romulan Intelligence sets in, with some of the more extreme militant Romulan officers rising through the ranks through force of character and political machinations.
2344 - after an attempted coup, Romulan Intelligence is abolished and replaced by a new Tal Shiar, the stain of its failure during the Earth-Romulan War forgotten (forgiven?). The resurrection of a respected organisation from Romulus' recent history is spun as a selling point, and the Tal Shiar begins afresh with (supposedly) new loyal officers keen to prove themselves worthy of the name.
2346 - Khitomer Massacre (http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Tal_Shiar#The_Khitomer_Massacre_.282346.29). The [new] Tal Shiar was able to obtain information gained from the Cardassian Obsidian Order that the Klingon House of Kultan had commissioned the development of biogenic weapons on the outlying colony on Khitomer. The Tal Shiar supplied the information to the Romulan Senate, and shortly after preparations for an all-out assault on Khitomer were underway. When the assault was underway a few weeks later, the Tal Shiar enlisted the aid of Ja'rod, who sabotaged the colony's planetary defences and allowed the Romulan fleet to completely ravage the planet.
2346 onwards - subsequent victories [against other threats to the Empire], led by the Tal Shiar's intelligence apparatus, further increases its popularity, to the extent that the population begin to wonder whether the Tal Shiar senior leadership should, in fact, take more of an active role in running the Empire instead of the 'ineffectual Praetor and his lackeys' who "owe their power" to the successes of the Tal Shiar. Alarm bells sound amongst the Senate, recalling the attempted coup of 2344, but know that any attempt to dissolve the popular Tal Shiar would result in all-out protests. Instead, the Praetor instructs the organisation's senior leadership to support the Senate and use its popularity to ask the populace to do the same. The Director of the Tal Shiar does so, but soon resigns to take up a new political career....
2346 - 2366 The ex-Director of the Tal Shiar is elected senator, and eventually rises to Proconsul. The Tal Shiar, keen to maintain its power amongst the people creates a new 'Political Unit' to monitor the population's attitudes towards it. This unit becomes more powerful and more intrusive as time goes on, penetrating all layers of Romulan civilisation, eventually crossing the line into ensuring dissidents are...negated. Consumed by paranoia by their own actions, and institutionalised loyalty to ex-officers who have begun new political careers, the Tal Shiar begins to ensure that any criticism of the Tal Shiar - and the government in general - is crushed.
FIN
It's not perfect, and I've not covered everything (especially as I'm typing with one eye over my shoulder at my desk! LOL), and I am sure there are those who won't like my interpretation, but it's how I've chosen to marry certain discrepancies from various, selected, sources with my own thoughts.
Do not conflate Romulan Intelligence with the Tal'Shiar. In the novel, the Tal'Shiar was established in 2344 to replace the older, corrupt civilian intelligence organization, and started out well enough, but it wasn't very long before the corruption found its way into the Tal'Shiar as well. In other words, there was (and it's only logical that there was, novel notwithstanding) a civilian intelligence organization as far back as ENT, but no name was ever given in hard canon until TNG, at which point, the name Tal Shiar was used, and the idea that the Tal'Shiar was Romulan Intelligence prior to 2344 is, at best, an assumption without any support in hard canon. The establishment of the Tal'Shiar at some time between the end of TAS and the beginning of TNG is the best and most likely explanation for the change in the attitude of the Romulan government in that interim, whether that explanation be hard or soft canon. Otherwise, you're going to have to come up with some other explanation, which would be "fanon," and if you're rejecting soft canon, then going with fanon seems a bit ... well, ... odd. Soft canon is at least licensed. Fanon is not.
You are right of course, if we see Tal Shiar and Intelligence as separate entities (like S31 and Starfleet Intelligence or even Federate Security). The question is, only using show canon (as I don't know the novels in question, so even if I would say it's fair use to discuss canon I couldn't say much about them), does anything indicate that
a) the Tal Shiar is not the same as the Romulan Intelligence service (it maybe just it's designation)
and
b) that the TOS Romulan Star Empire differs much from the TNG one.
In "Unification, Part II" the Tal Shiar was mentioned by name but was not mentioned again in TNG. I cannot recall at the moment wether they even spoke of the Romulan Intelligence after that, but if they did it might be possible that Tal Shiar is just the name of the agency in question. Real-life comparisions are difficult since usually there are external and internal agencies, military and civilian ones whereas the Tal Shiar seems to be all of that. But judging by canon I think greatbriton's explanation could work. If that service changed over the course of time we cannot say but it's very possible.
Regarding the TOS RSE, we only ever see one ship, one captain and one crew. While we can extrapolate, how much does it tell about the whole Empire?
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
In "Unification, Part II" the Tal Shiar was mentioned by name but was not mentioned again in TNG.
The Tal Shiar was heavily mentioned in the Season 6 TNG episode "Face of the Enemy", where Troi was abducted and forced to pose as a Tal Shiar Major. You're right to say, though, that I don't think it was mentioned after that in TNG, but DS9 certainly increased its on-screen visibiity (and its villainry..) in the build-up of the Dominion War.
Regarding the TOS RSE, we only ever see one ship, one captain and one crew. While we can extrapolate, how much does it tell about the whole Empire?
We see further TOS RSE ships/crews in "The Enterprise Incident" - of course, in the original VFX, they are all Klingon D7s. In the Remastered (which, quite heretically, I prefer these days...don't hate me...) most of these D7s are replaced by the Bird of Prey designs from "Balance of Terror".
The Tal Shiar was heavily mentioned in the Season 6 TNG episode "Face of the Enemy", where Troi was abducted and forced to pose as a Tal Shiar Major. You're right to say, though, that I don't think it was mentioned after that in TNG, but DS9 certainly increased its on-screen visibiity (and its villainry..) in the build-up of the Dominion War.
Shame on me, I commited serious heretical deeds. The minor of these is that you are right but I merely confused the episodes: "Unification" doesn't mention the Tal Shiar but only "Romulan Intelligence" while "Face of the Enemy" indeed intorduces the Tal Shiar on-screen and after that never mentions it again in TNG.
We see further TOS RSE ships/crews in "The Enterprise Incident" - of course, in the original VFX, they are all Klingon D7s. In the Remastered (which, quite heretically, I prefer these days...don't hate me...) most of these D7s are replaced by the Bird of Prey designs from "Balance of Terror".
This is, however, much worse: I forgot "The Enterprise Incident" - and it's even one of the top TOS episodes. I cannot explain why but it just didn't pop into my mind thinking about TOS Romulans.
Judging by these Romulans, though, I don't think they act much different from TNG Romulans, as the commander does indeed try to fulfil her plans via trickery and manipulation. They are of course a bit different from the TNG version, that's true, but not enough to really see a major shift in government/military structure/society (albeit I admit that the situation in "Unification" portrays a very, very grim, let's say comically even, police state).
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
LOL!
Good point.
Optimus Prime would like to have a word with you in the alley.
But, in seriousness, claiming that "Romulans will always be Romulans", that the RSE is embbed in our genetic code or something, is an example of hte No True Scotsman fallacy. There is no such thing as a "True Romulan". Romulans left Vulcan 2000 years ago to avoid an oppressive monoculture imposed on them. Why would we allow the same thing now? Dictatorship and a police state is as inevitable in Romulan culture as the desire to juggle coconuts will riding a unicycle.
Those that support the RSE are simple nostalgists, devoted to an outdated and obsolete system that thrives by crushing hte Romulan spirit and trying to shape it to the benefit of the ruling class.
It is embedded in our genetic code. We are predisposed to much of what I just stated. It is in our nature. You simply do not shrug off a few thousand years of evolution and say you are holding yourself to a higher moral standard within the span of a year or two.
If Romulans left an oppressive monoculture imposed on them 2,000 years ago. Then they are born and bred from a people predisposed to oppressive monocultures.
You simply do not up and decide one day you are no longer Romulan. You can not escape your history, you can not escape nature. You can decide where you go from here, but the Romulan people have prospered through the very horrific acts the Romulan Republic are trying to eradicate.
The RSE may be in a temporary setback, but you can not destroy an idea. The RSE lives in the DNA of every Romulan because every Romulan has evolved from a people with a natural tendency to be oppressive.
This is why we are nostalgic for the days of the RSE. We embrace our heritage. We embrace the power we once held. There was no Romulan Republic during the Earth-Romulan War. There was no Romulan Republic during the Dominion War.
The Romulan Republic is a child rebelling against its parents. In time, they will learn as they mature... they can't escape who they are. If they do not become a new RSE, they will simply become another oppressive state -- and the cycle will begin again.
If you believe that, then i have a wonderful screen door equipped submarine you will just love.
Oppression and totaltarianism are not encoded in DNA. They are the conceit of a few wicked people who find ways to coerce their fellows into submiting. The Romulans left Vulcan because we would not be coerced. We overthrew T'Rehu because we would not be coerced. We brought down Dralath because we would not be coerced. And we overthrew the Star Empire because we would not be coerved. If the Romulan people have a history of anything, it is rebelling against those who would lead them to misery and oppression.
ummm LOLWUT? I dont know what you're smoking but you need to stop now... Claiming that Romulans and Vulcans have very deep passions and, at times, difficulty controlling those passions.. we can call that a reference to genetics, especially as Im sure geneticists in the Trek-verse could cough up 10 miles of technobabbly why our race(s) are so. You're referencing culture not genetics, sure culture has inertia too but not what you're describing....
The term is "pessimists."
First of all, the average Romulan lifespan is 250 years. Romulans are adults at the same age as Humans and Vulcans (around 17-21 years of age). There are Romulans alive in 2410 who were already alive and mature when the oppressive regime came into existence. 2267 (date of TEI) was 143 years ago. The Star Empire was not oppressive at that time. While an empire will have decadent and maniacal leaders from time to time (and the RSE did have such leaders over the course of its history, gradually increasing in frequency as time passed), it's not exclusive; an empire will also have more competent and compassionate leaders, until and unless the government descends into the kind of mediocrity, incompetence, decadence, apathy, and amoral Machiavellianism characteristic of an oppressive regime. Point being, claiming that Romulans have been conditioned to be slavish, simpering, cowed "subjects" for "a few thousand years" betrays an ignorance of Romulan history, and characterizing the change into such a situation as "evolution" is rather outrageous.
The RSE did not begin its descent into an oppressive police state until the Tal'Shiar was founded in 2344. It's now 2410. That's a mere 66 years, and that's not sufficient time to condition a people to acceptance of such a situation for a people who live an average of 250 years, even if the situation started the moment that the Tal'Shiar was established (and it did not). A person who was 39 and commanding a wing of Romulan vessels in 2268 would be 181 years old, and thus still significantly younger than dotage would set in. People of this age would be among the most likely to resist and rebel, as would the next generation raised by such people (and some of that next generation were born as recently as 40 years ago).
Going back further, the Star Empire was established in A.D. 938, after a period of colonial expansion. Prior to that, the government was a Confederation of City-States, and before that, it was a Tribal Confederacy, much like Vulcan was in the past. Before you get excited about the age of the Star Empire as having been founded in 928, bear in mind that the Senate abolished the office of Emperor/Empress in 1698, and the office was not restored until circa 1875. Even after that, there were periods in which the Star Empire was governed, not by an Emperor or Empress, but by a Praetor or group of Praetors (at various times, the Praetorate was divided among as many as 12 people). Several thousand years? Not even close. The Romulans didn't even leave Vulcan before about 2000 years ago, and for the first 938 years, there was no Empire of any sort. A brief reign by the Mad Queen (Vriha t'Rehu) was fairly quickly brought to an end (it lasted a grand total of 18 years), after which ensued six-hundred years of prosperity, peace, and liberty before the establishment of the Star Empire.
The Vulcan establishment was also not always oppressive; that began when politicians got their hands on Surak's philosophy and turned it into a religion, which they then tried to impose on the entire planet, but were never successful until after they succeeded in driving the dissenters to leave the planet. Even then, there were those Vulcans who held true to the original teachings of Surak as philosophy, rather than religion.
If you want to make claims about history, it's helpful to have some idea of what that history was.
Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv
Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
I wasn't aware there was such an in-depth back story on the Romulans.
Could you possibly suggest some reading material on this subject?
Thanks in advance.
Beyond hte Obvious, there is the Rihannsu series, and Vulcan's Soul trilogy, and Vulcan's Heart. All of them have greater depth and insightrs than the shows are able to go to in most cases. Excellent reads, and essential for anyone who wants to play a ROmulan.
and completely non-canon even it they are good, and about the only source of info
Forgive me to disagree, but I don't think they are essential. Great read, and worth it, with nice little references dropped here and there in the game, but hardly necessary to play a Romulan in the game.
But,yes,reading those books is an extra that is nice to have.
My apologies for the use of hyperbole milud. Won't happen again.
Hehe :P
I don't know how easy it is to get a hold of these days, but my personal reference guide is Last Unicorn Games's The Way of D'era Romulan sourcebook. If you ignore some of the (IMO) poor artwork (Ships of the Raptor chapter, I'm looking at you!) I think it's a nicely balanced and quite competent insight to the TNG Romulan interpretation. Admittedly, it does somewhat glorify the Tal Shiar in places, but their views on the Romulan mindset has served me well for RPing as an Imperial Romulan in the vein of Toreth et al.
What is also does, and I don't recall if other sources do this, is detail what 'urgent matters' the Star Empire were concerned with between the Khitomer Masscare and their re-emergence in 2364 - their war with the technologically superior Taurhai Unity. The Taurhai reads a little fan-fictiony, but toned down a little, they make an interesting foe of the Romulan way of life.
All in all, I thumb through it from time to time just to refresh my one-dimensional villainry.
We all get carried away once in a while. After all, we're passionate Romulans
--Red Annorax
I have noticed that many pro-RSE players seem to have LUG as an inspiration. I certainly have and have read The Way of D'era (and in fact, I've been re-reading it recently as part of the research I'm doing for my discussion of a Vulcan/Romulan/Reman history of ideas), but it just doesn't jibe with the Romulans from my earliest memories, and seems to totally ignore any of the work done by Ms. Duane, even going so far as to invent its own bastardized Latin to be used as a "Romulan" language. For LUG, Romulans are nearly exclusively villainous, such that even the supposedly good ones come off more like enlightened narcissists than anyone who might be considered ethically praiseworthy.
I meant that more in terms of no attempted conquest of other worlds; there would have been at least a few tribal skirmishes, and, in light of the Vulcan's X stuff and my own take on Romulan/Reman history based on TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, the various movies, the Rihannsu saga, "The Way of D'era," and assorted other sources (both ridiculous and sublime), I would say there would have been plenty of struggles of a more sectarian and less tribal nature.
For STO, I'd go as far as saying it's fair to call it nearly-essential reading. Cryptic took a lot of inspiration from Rihannsu-style Romulans, including the language, history references, and so on. Not everyone will agree with including that, of course, but it does shed light on the way Cyptic's been portraying Romulans and why there are several of us that agree with that interpretation.
I'm anti-RSE, but I've used LUG as a historical reference for some of my background material and writing, because among other things the version of the RSE government depicted in the LUG RPG matches the post-TNG canon version better: i.e. instead of the Senate and Praetorate being different chambers of a tricameral legislature, TNG-on seem to depict a unicameral parliamentary system, with a single praetor as prime minister.
My version of the RSE government as depicted in "Flaihhsam s'Spahkh" (the short story I wrote for Unofficial Literary Challenge 9) ended up as somewhat of a synthesis of the two versions: the TNG/LUG parliament-style Senate, with political voting blocs borrowed from The Way of D'era, but as in Diane Duane only the noble houses actually have representation, and the senators are all heads of houses.
As far as cooperating with the other factions for faction agnostic missions, it's mainly due to needing to find out more about what's going on with the Iconians as well as trying to temporarily build alliances until Sela is recovered, then follow her decisions. And on the side, do something similar to the Iconian relic bit exclusive to DR players; except instead as an Imperial Romulan, you discreetly steal some data concerning your allies and your enemies in some missions.
As well, have some unique dialogue that shows you don't really give a dam-n about the groups your aiding, but just doing it because Iconians and Sela is your primary concern. Such as in Dust to Dust, you'd insult the Samsar captain when storming the temple solo (telling him how worthless they are despite all the memories of the dead they have that they could have relied on to fight back), tell Jhetlya and Kim to shut up with their arguments or you'll just strand them in the maze or pit room, and either punch out Keten or bluntly tell him he died, he's mutating, and he cannot go back.
The Delta Recruit campaign showed they can go back and come up with some unique personalization of missions for a specific group, so I don't see why they can't show things from the Imperial side now. As well, add faction-specific optionals that have different results, similar to the old class-specific optionals.
Not if we in the Republic liberate her first! :P
I assume that there is some kind of forum-RP going on here, otherwise I am baffled that somebody would even consider linking forms of government and genetics in a thought. Just in case this is meant sincerly: That's not how that works...
@ Topic, since the other one was rudely locked:
In my opinion the RR is far from being considered stable or safe. In the locked thread I made a comparision of the RR to the Republic of Weimar (Germany after the November Revolution in 1918). This new free and democratic society wasn't able to support itself and was quickly decomposed by anti-democratic groups (not only Nationalsocialists but the whole spectrum) which, as everybody knows, lead to Hitler being declared Reichspräsident.
The RR is likely to be infiltrated and manipulated by one of the many splinter groups remaining (Tal'Shiar, Loyalists and I personally (but that's specualtion) think that a lot of local governours likely started their own 'minifaction', not to mention all the big evils in STO which basically manipulate everything), supported by the strong nationalistic (some might call it 'patriotic', but that's just my opinion) and isolationist tendencies we already see in-game. It is one possibility of the alliance falling apart and the Romulans resuming where the RSE left off, maybe this time without the Tal'Shiar, I can see that.
Regarding the the Tal'Shiar thing, we don't know how long they are around. Novel sources are irrelevant when discussing canon or canonical topics for STO, as long as STO doesn't explicitly state they use these dates. Show canon (ENT - which I despise but we have to go with it since STO draws - I dare to say - primarily from it) indicates that the Tal'Shiar has beena round basically always.
EDIT: I have to apologize, the ENT reference seems to have been in novel form as well (I really don't like ENT and don't keep track of it that well
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Do not conflate Romulan Intelligence with the Tal'Shiar. In the novel, the Tal'Shiar was established in 2344 to replace the older, corrupt civilian intelligence organization, and started out well enough, but it wasn't very long before the corruption found its way into the Tal'Shiar as well. In other words, there was (and it's only logical that there was, novel notwithstanding) a civilian intelligence organization as far back as ENT, but no name was ever given in hard canon until TNG, at which point, the name Tal Shiar was used, and the idea that the Tal'Shiar was Romulan Intelligence prior to 2344 is, at best, an assumption without any support in hard canon. The establishment of the Tal'Shiar at some time between the end of TAS and the beginning of TNG is the best and most likely explanation for the change in the attitude of the Romulan government in that interim, whether that explanation be hard or soft canon. Otherwise, you're going to have to come up with some other explanation, which would be "fanon," and if you're rejecting soft canon, then going with fanon seems a bit ... well, ... odd. Soft canon is at least licensed. Fanon is not.
This. My Imperial Romulan would shoot Sela where she stands. With pleasure.
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Tal_Shiar#The_History_of_the_Tal_Shiar
"The Tal Shiar was known to exist as far back as 2155 which meant that it predated the creation of the Federation. (ENTnovel: Kobayashi Maru) During the Earth-Romulan War, the Tal Shiar was known to have saturated the Coalition of Planets newsnets in order to gather intelligence on their enemy in the conflict. (ENTnovel: Beneath the Raptor's Wing) Starfleet can confirm its existence to the late 23rd century, when the Tal Shiar or its immediate predecessor) performed a number of covertly dangerous operations against Starfleet and the Federation.
Editorial Note: Sources conflict on the origin of the Tal Shiar. In the novel Vulcan's Heart it was created in 2344 to replace the corrupt existing intelligence apparatus (see the passage quoted above). Other sources, such the ENT novel Kobayashi Maru, specifically refer to Romulan Intelligence as the Tal Shiar as early as the 2150s. Given the conflicts, contributors to this page are encouraged to distinguish between instances where the Tal Shiar is specifically named versus cases that involve Romulan intelligence organizations but do not use the term "Tal Shiar".
Considering the ENT novels are, generally, considered the official intention to continue the ST:Enterprise series (in the same way the DS9 Relaunch novels are, for better or worse!), and deal - quite explicitly - with the Earth-Romulan War, I am inclined to accept the new 'status quo' that the Tal Shiar operated at least from 2155.
The question is... is the Tal Shiar of the 2150s the same organisation which existed from 2344? Obviously there is a disconnect between these 'milestones', and so I currently prefer to consider the lineage as thus (apologies for the rough/rushed nature - I am typing this at work!):
2150s - the Tal Shiar operates as the historical Romulan intelligence apparatus of the Romulan Star Empire. This incarnation is not insular, per se - but rather operates under an 'open secret' amongst the people, much as the CIA/NSA is well known to be an 'benevolent' intelligence agency (I make no further comment) tasked with the safety of the Empire. Its members are well-respected, and their modus operandi is efficient, righteous and never cruel to its own people. During the Earth-Romulan War, the Tal Shiar, for the first time in its history, recruits and mobilises in unprecedented numbers, infiltrating Earth and its allies.
2160 - following the defeat of the Empire by Earth forces, the Tal Shiar is (partially?) blamed for this outcome (be it through poor organisation, or other scapegoat accusations), and is abolished through to popular revolt which also forces political change (ergo, the transition from the ENT/TNG vision of Romulus to the TOS incarnation of the Star Empire). The Tal Shiar itself is replaced by a civilian organisation ("Romulan Intelligence") that reflects the new government, away from conquest and expansion and towards the cultural enrichment of its existing territories.
circa 2260s- for whatever reason, the Romulan Star Empire decides to test (and obliterate) Federation defences with their new cloaking bird of prey prototype. Failure, and loss, rocks the government again, and there are calls to avenge the deaths of loyal Empire service personnel. Resisting protests for an all-out militarisation, and led by briefings from Romulan Intelligence, the Star Empire enters a mutually beneficial Alliance with the Federation's other rival, the Klingon Empire. In this way, the Star Empire is militarised by proxy, directing Klingon ferocity upon the UFP while largely keeping their own society unblemished.
[Dissolution of Alliance - work in progress]
2311 - the Tomed Incident forces another regime change to that of a more hard-line, but still largely benevolent, government. Corruption and rot of the civilian Romulan Intelligence sets in, with some of the more extreme militant Romulan officers rising through the ranks through force of character and political machinations.
2344 - after an attempted coup, Romulan Intelligence is abolished and replaced by a new Tal Shiar, the stain of its failure during the Earth-Romulan War forgotten (forgiven?). The resurrection of a respected organisation from Romulus' recent history is spun as a selling point, and the Tal Shiar begins afresh with (supposedly) new loyal officers keen to prove themselves worthy of the name.
2346 - Khitomer Massacre (http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Tal_Shiar#The_Khitomer_Massacre_.282346.29). The [new] Tal Shiar was able to obtain information gained from the Cardassian Obsidian Order that the Klingon House of Kultan had commissioned the development of biogenic weapons on the outlying colony on Khitomer. The Tal Shiar supplied the information to the Romulan Senate, and shortly after preparations for an all-out assault on Khitomer were underway. When the assault was underway a few weeks later, the Tal Shiar enlisted the aid of Ja'rod, who sabotaged the colony's planetary defences and allowed the Romulan fleet to completely ravage the planet.
2346 onwards - subsequent victories [against other threats to the Empire], led by the Tal Shiar's intelligence apparatus, further increases its popularity, to the extent that the population begin to wonder whether the Tal Shiar senior leadership should, in fact, take more of an active role in running the Empire instead of the 'ineffectual Praetor and his lackeys' who "owe their power" to the successes of the Tal Shiar. Alarm bells sound amongst the Senate, recalling the attempted coup of 2344, but know that any attempt to dissolve the popular Tal Shiar would result in all-out protests. Instead, the Praetor instructs the organisation's senior leadership to support the Senate and use its popularity to ask the populace to do the same. The Director of the Tal Shiar does so, but soon resigns to take up a new political career....
2346 - 2366 The ex-Director of the Tal Shiar is elected senator, and eventually rises to Proconsul. The Tal Shiar, keen to maintain its power amongst the people creates a new 'Political Unit' to monitor the population's attitudes towards it. This unit becomes more powerful and more intrusive as time goes on, penetrating all layers of Romulan civilisation, eventually crossing the line into ensuring dissidents are...negated. Consumed by paranoia by their own actions, and institutionalised loyalty to ex-officers who have begun new political careers, the Tal Shiar begins to ensure that any criticism of the Tal Shiar - and the government in general - is crushed.
FIN
It's not perfect, and I've not covered everything (especially as I'm typing with one eye over my shoulder at my desk! LOL), and I am sure there are those who won't like my interpretation, but it's how I've chosen to marry certain discrepancies from various, selected, sources with my own thoughts.
You are right of course, if we see Tal Shiar and Intelligence as separate entities (like S31 and Starfleet Intelligence or even Federate Security). The question is, only using show canon (as I don't know the novels in question, so even if I would say it's fair use to discuss canon I couldn't say much about them), does anything indicate that
a) the Tal Shiar is not the same as the Romulan Intelligence service (it maybe just it's designation)
and
b) that the TOS Romulan Star Empire differs much from the TNG one.
In "Unification, Part II" the Tal Shiar was mentioned by name but was not mentioned again in TNG. I cannot recall at the moment wether they even spoke of the Romulan Intelligence after that, but if they did it might be possible that Tal Shiar is just the name of the agency in question. Real-life comparisions are difficult since usually there are external and internal agencies, military and civilian ones whereas the Tal Shiar seems to be all of that. But judging by canon I think greatbriton's explanation could work. If that service changed over the course of time we cannot say but it's very possible.
Regarding the TOS RSE, we only ever see one ship, one captain and one crew. While we can extrapolate, how much does it tell about the whole Empire?
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The Tal Shiar was heavily mentioned in the Season 6 TNG episode "Face of the Enemy", where Troi was abducted and forced to pose as a Tal Shiar Major. You're right to say, though, that I don't think it was mentioned after that in TNG, but DS9 certainly increased its on-screen visibiity (and its villainry..) in the build-up of the Dominion War.
We see further TOS RSE ships/crews in "The Enterprise Incident" - of course, in the original VFX, they are all Klingon D7s. In the Remastered (which, quite heretically, I prefer these days...don't hate me...) most of these D7s are replaced by the Bird of Prey designs from "Balance of Terror".
Shame on me, I commited serious heretical deeds. The minor of these is that you are right but I merely confused the episodes: "Unification" doesn't mention the Tal Shiar but only "Romulan Intelligence" while "Face of the Enemy" indeed intorduces the Tal Shiar on-screen and after that never mentions it again in TNG.
This is, however, much worse: I forgot "The Enterprise Incident" - and it's even one of the top TOS episodes. I cannot explain why but it just didn't pop into my mind thinking about TOS Romulans.
Judging by these Romulans, though, I don't think they act much different from TNG Romulans, as the commander does indeed try to fulfil her plans via trickery and manipulation. They are of course a bit different from the TNG version, that's true, but not enough to really see a major shift in government/military structure/society (albeit I admit that the situation in "Unification" portrays a very, very grim, let's say comically even, police state).
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