Out of curiosity, are you in the higher channels? I've never seen any flaming going on in 10k, but it's the only channel I'm in, so I can't offer any anecdotal evidence regarding the higher channels.
Anyway, maybe the multi-channel approach is outdated. There's enough room for e-peen stroking in the leaderboards. Higher channels only seem to reinforce the sense that elitism is rampant, despite never being seen in 10k.
forgive me if I limit myself to some easy to find recent firsthand citations that came up due to the recent brouhaha. I'm using a tablet and my searchfu is very weak.:
Yes i have seen ***** trolling the 10k channel on purpose in the past, laughing about it in the higher channels, some others would join him as well. I remember when they even trolled sarcasmdetector (lowlifecat here) with alts, and after he (lowlifecat) kicked them ***** or others would reinvite those alts
It's still better than the behavior of some of the people that did this. I won't name names, but it wasn't unusual to see certain members being rude or dismissive in 10k and insisting that 30k was perfectly easy and achievable. It can be, but it's expensive as hell and requires time and/or money.
<snip>
This is that state of the game, and these are the players they decided to be rude and disrespectful towards. If I acted that way to my fleet or my coworkers IRL, I'd expect a swift punch in the nuts. Like, when I came to, not even mad about it. It's unacceptable. And to sit there in a channel that, for many people, is a real achievement to get into and **** on them? Not cool.
******* attitude towards newer/lower players, trolling or not, was the direct reason I LEFT the DPS community. He was, flat out, an arrogant prick and the short time I interacted with him was more interested in insulting low DPS players than giving suggestions or being patient. He's one of the very few people I keep on ignore, because of the things that were said.
And no ***** didn't troll people, he humiliates them openly in the channel (ask Oden or Khan or the guy in this thread that left the dps league as a result of him) and I've seen ******* rip someone (Protious) for their build in the channel as well, something which I immediately called him out on when it happened
So there's four different people sharing firsthand experiences and talking about them going back over time. And they're not talking about last week's issue, these comments are directly about attitude and elitism. And all four are not only from different people, they are about different people.
It's people like you that make newbies to scared to come on and play because all they do is get put down with no advice or tips, I've done a few with 2 newbies and 2 experienced STF's on an elite space once and we did it because we were talking in a polite way and offering advice on what to spend and upgrades on, I've made friends with them, teamed up with them on other STF's and have become stronger.
So instead of putting them down, why not help them? Posting childish things up like banning Inexperienced Players from STF's doesn't help the image of the STO community, when new people read this they are going to think what kind of game is this, we are a OMM, we are here to help and point people in the right direction, I don't like people who call other people names.
i have had a bunch of people help me out with good feedback, but the people that act like they are gods or say stuff like "you a !@#$%^& noob why the !@#$ are you in elites!" are instantly put on my ignore list, and if im really offended they are reported.
2012 and people were asking the devs to give them a tool to lock people out of elites because they haven't played enough or aren't geared, and people sharing experiences of the high performing crowd insulting and teasing not helping.
You'll be waiting eternally for the community to "mature." Actually, it would mature faster if it had access to such a tool. Admittedly, there might be a rather unsightly transitional period, though I feel forecasts of that doom are overblown.
I'm not forcasting. I'm citing evidence from two+ years of the queues that already have exactly what is being requested. Crystal, starbase 24, etc, many of the queues already have a tiered reward system where higher damage and healing gives more awards. After two yearsmthese have not helped they have been a source of insults.
This will not change. Giving this community more tools of this kind will only increase what is already in place, not suddenly transform how they are used.
No predictions needed, we have years of hindsight now, going back to 2012 at least. It ain't pretty. The people who will use a DPs meter for good will go find one third party. Cryptic adding one will never improve the game or the community.
It's just a tool. The fact that some people are tools, well that can't be stopped, it can be helped by talking things out, but that can't be stopped. I think a lot of people would have a lot of fun with it. Some do today, more might be better.
Not that I don't understand the reservations, I still just come down on the other side of the conversation than some of you guys. Perhaps having it separate from the game does make sense. Technologically (it is just a log parser) and ethically, so it's not such a constant presence. Regardless though, I wish it wasn't a 3rd party utility, it would be more accessible if it was part of the game.
2012 and people were asking the devs to give them a tool to lock people out of elites because they haven't played enough or aren't geared, and people sharing experiences of the high performing crowd insulting and teasing not helping.
Even before the events last week, this is what I see in those channels.
It most cases I have seen those kicked out of the DPS channels are they themselves rude or arrogant or misbehaving.
DPS channels regardless of where you are is actually have less trolling and less flaming unless you yourself put certain fallacies and nonsense in those channels.
If you aint rude, arrogant and follow channel rules, there is no need to be worry about the high performance crowd or the admins in whatever DPS channel you are in.
In fact, I have seen these high performance/admin crowds players help a lot of players to improve.
If you aint rude, arrogant and follow channel rules, there is no need to be worry about the high performance crowd or the admins in whatever DPS channel you are in.
Sorry, but based on behavior of some of those admin on these forums alone has convinced me not to want to join .
Which sucks in a way, as I have friends who are part of those channels .
In fact, I have seen these high performance/admin crowds players help a lot of players to improve.
One type of behavior does not cancel out the other , so as far as I'm concerned , I'd rather loose a game then to knowingly place myself under the thumb of ppl who have 'scrubs' and the like in their daily vocabulary .
... and no, it's not fun to have such standards ...
One type of behavior does not cancel out the other , so as far as I'm concerned , I'd rather loose a game then to knowingly place myself under the thumb of ppl who have 'scrubs' and the like in their daily vocabulary .
I see your point there. Well I for my part am glad now that we have two channels to select. The one of the evil/rogue admins is rather enjoyable. Ryan helped my sci toon to reach 20k in ISA the past weekend. A friend I took along messed up the WFP command. Even Ryan in his 50k DPS Recluse understood that he was new, wasnt at all upset about it and after looking at the prase my friend is now in Bronze as well. I make a lot of pug runs with him and it probably wont take long for my bud to get into Silver. After looking a bit at Ryans play style I got 23k on my own in yesterdays pug.
The split of the channels gave me a fresh perspective on topic and I find the metal ones not at all unappealing from first impression especially not as far as their administration is concerned. They are cool and friendly guys to be around with and a team play atmosphere reaches me much faster than some elitist black and white attitudes with no substance I unfortunatly got elsewhere.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Sorry, but based on behavior of some of those admin on these forums alone has convinced me not to want to join. Which sucks in a way, as I have friends who are part of those channels .
if you want to play, in life, you take the good with the bad, to some degree
but, of late, the bad has been complete TRIBBLE. so bad that peoples spirits are kind of broken over it. this kind of bad is exceptional, and like most off-the-charts things, it's because of something else. I have no idea what that "something else" is, but it's probably there.
and, it's still a nice group, just a bit less of them,
I'd prefer not to see it, but then, from what I've seen in the pug, half the time someone with a parser will post a readout with some smug comment of ''showing who the worthless noobs are''.
I recognize these are probably the worst of those channels, but still.
I have a feeling people will always lord their own DPS over others and always whine at the one in 5th place, let's face it, any 5 man team will have -someone- in fifth place, exceptions off course being a 5th place having an obviously big gap in DPS compared to #4.
TBH all the players I've played with who parse, haven't done that. Admittedly I haven't played with everyone in the DPS channels, but the amount of players who do that are very minimal.
There are a few I've heard about who do that though, they are a pain and really don't represent the majority of the players in the DPS channels at all.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
If there are people putting you down after dropping a parse then thats embarrassing to the rest of the dps community. That is NOT the general attitude of the channels (at least 10k and 30k). Its mostly people helping each other out. While there are definitely elitists in 50k and above, for the most part i dont see even them doing that (porch, one of the channels founders is generally a chill guy) although after listening to a recent audio recording of a meeting that was had recently, its clear at least aome of them have contempt for the rest of us as one of them called anybody under their level "lazy". I believe it was one if the folks that split off
Generally however, dont take one guy giving you grief as the general attitude of these channels because its really not like that.
TBH all the players I've played with who parse, haven't done that. Admittedly I haven't played with everyone in the DPS channels, but the amount of players who do that are very minimal.
There are a few I've heard about who do that though, they are a pain and really don't represent the majority of the players in the DPS channels at all.
I figured as much, nevertheless I feel like I best stay far away from anything beyond normal modes now, I have nothing with all the DPS nonsense.
Admitted, it's also because I have an ''I fly what I want to fly'' mentality, I care nothing for builds or DPS, though it could also be because I only recently returned after 2 years, back then the only thing people complained about was rainbow boats.
That's not to say that I want to be a lazy burden or anything, I do try to make proper use of what I have, BOFF skills, DOFFs, weapon type, but I don't care about min-maxing and all that comes with it.
If there are people putting you down after dropping a parse then thats embarrassing to the rest of the dps community. That is NOT the general attitude of the channels (at least 10k and 30k). Its mostly people helping each other out. While there are definitely elitists in 50k and above, for the most part i dont see even them doing that (porch, one of the channels founders is generally a chill guy) although after listening to a recent audio recording of a meeting that was had recently, its clear at least aome of them have contempt for the rest of us as one of them called anybody under their level "lazy". I believe it was one if the folks that split off
Generally however, dont take one guy giving you grief as the general attitude of these channels because its really not like that.
Best I can tell from the outside they mostly represent the people none of you want to team with, which is why they are pugging.
Plenty of you better folks also pug, but to test builds, for the challenge etc. Better meaning nice, helpful, etc, not higher damage. As is better person.
Problem is, there really are a lot of them. You don't see them because you're in moderated channels and teamed with people you know. They behave for fear of repercussions. Once away from the watching eyes of the Adminsand people they respect, formerly behaved people act like douchenozzels.
+1 on the OP's suggestion. I'd like the game to have some sort of official way to determine my ship's performance in an objective manner. It doesn't matter to me if it is visible to everyone else or just to me (maybe even make this optional). There are a lot of things that can be measured other than DPS:
- Heals in/out
- Damage in
- Hits in/out
Those three metrics can help you tweak non-DPS builds such as healer and tank builds properly. It is available in the current CLR, but people shouldn't have to download third party apps for this sort of thing.
Best I can tell from the outside they mostly represent the people none of you want to team with, which is why they are pugging.
While I am part of these channels, I still PUG more often than I join their runs simply because I enjoy the thrill of PUGging. Sure if I want to measure my DPS I run with the channel folks but on regular play-throughs, I do it with PUGs.
I've never really run into people berrating others in DPS channels because of their DPS. If there is someone who gets a scolding, it is usually for not following channel rules (wfp, wfg, bringing an alt that isn't up to the channel's bracket without warning the team, etc.). In fact, I have found the people from the channels that I am in to be very helpful in tweaking my build and improving my flying.
There are other options that require neither a trinity nor all DPs and are still fun. Mine trap is my favorite example. For significant portions of that mission damage is irrelevant. For all but one tiny part (the very tail end guarding the landing zone) a tank is irrelevant.
That mission can reward any style of play. Healers, stealthers, pet summoners, controllers, aoe specialists, melee, etc. It doesn't force people into any build, and it doesn't lock out any either.
Being super high damage, especially aoe during the escort phase is risky because of confuses and fragile civilians, but during the "guard the houses" and "guard the ships" phases its extremely rewarding.
A good healer can make up for a bad "guard the houses" phase by helping the civilians recover during the escort trek. But its not required.
A tank can certainly help during the initial warning phase and guard the houses, but since each quarter is so big and has four houses, it is impossible to truly tank these phases. At the end, guarding the ships, it really helps to have a tank keep the two respawning alphas off of damage dealers so they are free to control the tunnels and waves. And given most sto tanks build resistance to confuse and hold, it is handy while escorting civilians to have a tank protect everyone from friendly fire due to the betas.
But none of that is required. Any group can succeed, the design simply rewards you for using your character wisely whatever your strength, and punishes you (brutally in this mission's case) for using your character poorly.
The devs absolutely could implement more encounters like this one. They choose not to.
Another example, which two of our devs worked on (gorngonzolla and commander ander specifically) is the lord recluse strike force from city of heroes. Again, any group could succeed. There were battles vsmsimgle strong enemies where a tank or healer are handy, but controls, or just massed damage could work too. The finale was not a single boss with massive stats. It was one boss per player. Everyone had to win their own fight. You could try to lull some of them, or break them up. Most teams combined focus fire plus aoe. I'd even seen some mind control specialists get them to fight each other. Again, many options that all work.
Our devs know how to do this. They proved it by doing it multiple times. Content can reward damage without requiring it. Content can reward the teamwork that is reflected in the trinity, without requiring the roles that the trinity requires and without being as fuc**ng boring as the trinity and tank-and-spank snore fests.
Comments
http://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/38onqh/a_wizard_of_sto_presents_full_disclosure/crx4tmv
http://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/38onqh/a_wizard_of_sto_presents_full_disclosure/crxd7ck
http://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/38onqh/a_wizard_of_sto_presents_full_disclosure/crx7qm7
http://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/38onqh/a_wizard_of_sto_presents_full_disclosure/crxvm27
So there's four different people sharing firsthand experiences and talking about them going back over time. And they're not talking about last week's issue, these comments are directly about attitude and elitism. And all four are not only from different people, they are about different people.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=4033545&postcount=152
Here's one from years before the DPs league showing the same issue:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=4048718&postcount=180
2012 and people were asking the devs to give them a tool to lock people out of elites because they haven't played enough or aren't geared, and people sharing experiences of the high performing crowd insulting and teasing not helping. I'm not forcasting. I'm citing evidence from two+ years of the queues that already have exactly what is being requested. Crystal, starbase 24, etc, many of the queues already have a tiered reward system where higher damage and healing gives more awards. After two yearsmthese have not helped they have been a source of insults.
This will not change. Giving this community more tools of this kind will only increase what is already in place, not suddenly transform how they are used.
No predictions needed, we have years of hindsight now, going back to 2012 at least. It ain't pretty. The people who will use a DPs meter for good will go find one third party. Cryptic adding one will never improve the game or the community.
Not that I don't understand the reservations, I still just come down on the other side of the conversation than some of you guys. Perhaps having it separate from the game does make sense. Technologically (it is just a log parser) and ethically, so it's not such a constant presence. Regardless though, I wish it wasn't a 3rd party utility, it would be more accessible if it was part of the game.
Even before the events last week, this is what I see in those channels.
It most cases I have seen those kicked out of the DPS channels are they themselves rude or arrogant or misbehaving.
DPS channels regardless of where you are is actually have less trolling and less flaming unless you yourself put certain fallacies and nonsense in those channels.
If you aint rude, arrogant and follow channel rules, there is no need to be worry about the high performance crowd or the admins in whatever DPS channel you are in.
In fact, I have seen these high performance/admin crowds players help a lot of players to improve.
Sorry, but based on behavior of some of those admin on these forums alone has convinced me not to want to join .
Which sucks in a way, as I have friends who are part of those channels .
One type of behavior does not cancel out the other , so as far as I'm concerned , I'd rather loose a game then to knowingly place myself under the thumb of ppl who have 'scrubs' and the like in their daily vocabulary .
... and no, it's not fun to have such standards ...
I see your point there. Well I for my part am glad now that we have two channels to select. The one of the evil/rogue admins is rather enjoyable. Ryan helped my sci toon to reach 20k in ISA the past weekend. A friend I took along messed up the WFP command. Even Ryan in his 50k DPS Recluse understood that he was new, wasnt at all upset about it and after looking at the prase my friend is now in Bronze as well. I make a lot of pug runs with him and it probably wont take long for my bud to get into Silver. After looking a bit at Ryans play style I got 23k on my own in yesterdays pug.
The split of the channels gave me a fresh perspective on topic and I find the metal ones not at all unappealing from first impression especially not as far as their administration is concerned. They are cool and friendly guys to be around with and a team play atmosphere reaches me much faster than some elitist black and white attitudes with no substance I unfortunatly got elsewhere.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
if you want to play, in life, you take the good with the bad, to some degree
but, of late, the bad has been complete TRIBBLE. so bad that peoples spirits are kind of broken over it. this kind of bad is exceptional, and like most off-the-charts things, it's because of something else. I have no idea what that "something else" is, but it's probably there.
and, it's still a nice group, just a bit less of them,
I recognize these are probably the worst of those channels, but still.
I have a feeling people will always lord their own DPS over others and always whine at the one in 5th place, let's face it, any 5 man team will have -someone- in fifth place, exceptions off course being a 5th place having an obviously big gap in DPS compared to #4.
There are a few I've heard about who do that though, they are a pain and really don't represent the majority of the players in the DPS channels at all.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Generally however, dont take one guy giving you grief as the general attitude of these channels because its really not like that.
I figured as much, nevertheless I feel like I best stay far away from anything beyond normal modes now, I have nothing with all the DPS nonsense.
Admitted, it's also because I have an ''I fly what I want to fly'' mentality, I care nothing for builds or DPS, though it could also be because I only recently returned after 2 years, back then the only thing people complained about was rainbow boats.
That's not to say that I want to be a lazy burden or anything, I do try to make proper use of what I have, BOFF skills, DOFFs, weapon type, but I don't care about min-maxing and all that comes with it.
Best I can tell from the outside they mostly represent the people none of you want to team with, which is why they are pugging.
Plenty of you better folks also pug, but to test builds, for the challenge etc. Better meaning nice, helpful, etc, not higher damage. As is better person.
Problem is, there really are a lot of them. You don't see them because you're in moderated channels and teamed with people you know. They behave for fear of repercussions. Once away from the watching eyes of the Adminsand people they respect, formerly behaved people act like douchenozzels.
- Heals in/out
- Damage in
- Hits in/out
Those three metrics can help you tweak non-DPS builds such as healer and tank builds properly. It is available in the current CLR, but people shouldn't have to download third party apps for this sort of thing.
While I am part of these channels, I still PUG more often than I join their runs simply because I enjoy the thrill of PUGging. Sure if I want to measure my DPS I run with the channel folks but on regular play-throughs, I do it with PUGs.
I've never really run into people berrating others in DPS channels because of their DPS. If there is someone who gets a scolding, it is usually for not following channel rules (wfp, wfg, bringing an alt that isn't up to the channel's bracket without warning the team, etc.). In fact, I have found the people from the channels that I am in to be very helpful in tweaking my build and improving my flying.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
That mission can reward any style of play. Healers, stealthers, pet summoners, controllers, aoe specialists, melee, etc. It doesn't force people into any build, and it doesn't lock out any either.
Being super high damage, especially aoe during the escort phase is risky because of confuses and fragile civilians, but during the "guard the houses" and "guard the ships" phases its extremely rewarding.
A good healer can make up for a bad "guard the houses" phase by helping the civilians recover during the escort trek. But its not required.
A tank can certainly help during the initial warning phase and guard the houses, but since each quarter is so big and has four houses, it is impossible to truly tank these phases. At the end, guarding the ships, it really helps to have a tank keep the two respawning alphas off of damage dealers so they are free to control the tunnels and waves. And given most sto tanks build resistance to confuse and hold, it is handy while escorting civilians to have a tank protect everyone from friendly fire due to the betas.
But none of that is required. Any group can succeed, the design simply rewards you for using your character wisely whatever your strength, and punishes you (brutally in this mission's case) for using your character poorly.
The devs absolutely could implement more encounters like this one. They choose not to.
Another example, which two of our devs worked on (gorngonzolla and commander ander specifically) is the lord recluse strike force from city of heroes. Again, any group could succeed. There were battles vsmsimgle strong enemies where a tank or healer are handy, but controls, or just massed damage could work too. The finale was not a single boss with massive stats. It was one boss per player. Everyone had to win their own fight. You could try to lull some of them, or break them up. Most teams combined focus fire plus aoe. I'd even seen some mind control specialists get them to fight each other. Again, many options that all work.
Our devs know how to do this. They proved it by doing it multiple times. Content can reward damage without requiring it. Content can reward the teamwork that is reflected in the trinity, without requiring the roles that the trinity requires and without being as fuc**ng boring as the trinity and tank-and-spank snore fests.
this is why I suggested it