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Elachi ship and R&D packs is BS!

13

Comments

  • decroniadecronia Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    immudzen wrote: »
    One BIG issue I see is that like any other gambling system the odds should be clearly posted. Every time the lottery is advertised on TV in the USA or you are at a game of chance you can clearly see the odds. It should be illegal not to clearly state the odds since it is gambling.

    I wonder how many people would open lockboxes if the odds where clearly stated.

    I think that cryptic relies on burning people. People look at the idea of getting a ship from a lockbox but the odds are not posted anywhere obvious. They spend a bunch of money since they think it is only one more box away and either get the ship and keep getting sucked into the gambling cycle or they give up and hate the game. The problem is that the people that give up and hate the game are correct. This type of business model should be illegal and in some areas of the world it is illegal.

    If you want gambling fine but the odds should always be clearly visible.

    The problem with that is it is not really classed as gambling, which would make it ilegal in some countries or age restrict the game in many. This is why they don't have to publish the odds. People have worked it out and mentioned it more than once. A little seaarch would get that info.

    In the case of R&D packsyou are buying and getting the packs with a chance of a ship. Therefore you do get what you pay for the R&D pack. If people are buying the pack for the ship then more fool them, there are easier ways to get it as have been mentioned. If I buy a pack it is for the pack, if I got the ship in the promotion it would go straight on the exchange as it is not something I would use.

    Where lockboxes are concerned you always get something it may not be what you want it to be but it is something.

    In cases like lotteries, fruit machines and casinos you can walk away with nothing, or a greater anount than you went in with, usually the first mind you. There in lies the difference where I think legalities of gambling come in. That is why you see the odds of the grabd prize mentioned in lotteries, depending on country, and on fruit machines.
  • immudzenimmudzen Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    This seems like hiding based on a technicality.

    Those boxes are sold because of the ships not because of the R&D components. NO matter how they try to present it the system is still gambling.

    The issue I see is that hiding it is massively unethical. Worse since it is just hiding based on a technicality the laws will change. Normally courts and lawmakers take a fairly dim view of people that avoid a law based on a technicality.
  • decroniadecronia Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    immudzen wrote: »
    This seems like hiding based on a technicality.

    Those boxes are sold because of the ships not because of the R&D components. NO matter how they try to present it the system is still gambling.

    The issue I see is that hiding it is massively unethical. Worse since it is just hiding based on a technicality the laws will change. Normally courts and lawmakers take a fairly dim view of people that avoid a law based on a technicality.

    It is that technicality that allows it to carry on being played by mopre people in many countries. If they didn't play be legal technicalities it would get age restricted in some countries and possibly even banned in some where gambling is completely ilegal.

    The R&D boxes are sold as R&D boxes and they sell outside of the promotions. You pay for an R&D box and you get an R&D box, no hiding behind technicalities there. On lock boxes I would agree with you it does seem to be hiding behind technicalities. However as above those technicalites allow for a larger playerbase.
  • davideightdavideight Member Posts: 436 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    for 90 dollars you could have bought keys worth of 500million EC and BUY you 2ships of these from the echange. case closed, lesson learnt. go home ;-)
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    This thread brings to mind an old saying about a fool and his money..


    There is a reason they call it gambling.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    davideight wrote: »
    for 90 dollars you could have bought keys worth of 500million EC and BUY you 2ships of these from the echange.


    Because keys go for 5,55 mil each, right?! :P

    And because 1 Sheshar only costs 250 mil, right?!

    LOL.

    Seriously, the OP is 100% at fault himself. But let's not exaggerate the case, shall we!?
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  • immudzenimmudzen Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    decronia wrote: »
    It is that technicality that allows it to carry on being played by mopre people in many countries. If they didn't play be legal technicalities it would get age restricted in some countries and possibly even banned in some where gambling is completely ilegal.

    The R&D boxes are sold as R&D boxes and they sell outside of the promotions. You pay for an R&D box and you get an R&D box, no hiding behind technicalities there. On lock boxes I would agree with you it does seem to be hiding behind technicalities. However as above those technicalities allow for a larger playerbase.

    If you look at most of the comments here almost everyone says this is gambling. Pretty much everyone recognizes that this is actually gambling it is just evading gambling laws on a technicality.

    The fundamental issue is that the odds should be posted and even though some MMO companies have lobbied to keep laws from being changed it is unlikely they will win on this one. This behavior is going to get the industry regulated and everyone will be worse off. If they would just behave like better citizens none of this would be happening.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    immudzen wrote: »
    The fundamental issue is that the odds should be posted and even though some MMO companies have lobbied to keep laws from being changed it is unlikely they will win on this one.


    Publishing the odds would be tantamount to them admitting it's gambling. They'll never do that. But, yes, they should: if for nothing else, sheer courtesy.
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  • immudzenimmudzen Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Publishing the odds would be tantamount to them admitting it's gambling. They'll never do that. But, yes, they should: if for nothing else, sheer courtesy.

    If they don't admit it is gambling and publish the odds they are going to get regulated as gambling and things will be worse.

    They could say what is in the r&d pack along with the odds of getting any of the special items and still try to claim it is not gambling.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Publishing the odds would be tantamount to them admitting it's gambling. They'll never do that. But, yes, they should: if for nothing else, sheer courtesy.


    The problem is, they are able to hide behind the 'letter of the law.'

    The box normally gives you RnD components, and has a set Zen Cost.

    For a limited time, when you open the RnD box you also get a chance (albeit a very small chance) to win a special ship.

    What they're technically selling you is the RnD Pack, and you're getting what you pay for. It's not technically gambling because you're paying for, and receiving an RnD pack. As a special promotion, they're throwing in a chance to win a ship.

    It's no different then purchasing a soft drink at a fast food chain and the drink comes with a sticker that you can scratch off for a chance to win additional prizes. If you don't win, you have no basis for complaint.. you purchased the drink.

    RnD Packs work the same way. If you don't want/need the RnD Pack and just buy it for the minute chance of winning the ship, then that's on the customer.
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  • immudzenimmudzen Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    The problem is, they are able to hide behind the 'letter of the law.'

    The box normally gives you RnD components, and has a set Zen Cost.

    For a limited time, when you open the RnD box you also get a chance (albeit a very small chance) to win a special ship.

    What they're technically selling you is the RnD Pack, and you're getting what you pay for. It's not technically gambling because you're paying for, and receiving an RnD pack. As a special promotion, they're throwing in a chance to win a ship.

    It's no different then purchasing a soft drink at a fast food chain and the drink comes with a sticker that you can scratch off for a chance to win additional prizes. If you don't win, you have no basis for complaint.. you purchased the drink.

    RnD Packs work the same way. If you don't want/need the RnD Pack and just buy it for the minute chance of winning the ship, then that's on the customer.

    The difference is that people normally buy those drinks and the item is truly completely secondary. What percentage of R&D packs are sold during promotions vs any other time?

    I am pretty sure that mcdonalds doesn't sell more than a tiny percentage more sodas while they do their monopoly promotion. I am sure that cryptic sells VASTLY more R7D packs during these promotions. That is what shows it is truly gambling and the pack is just a cover.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    immudzen wrote: »
    The difference is that people normally buy those drinks and the item is truly completely secondary. What percentage of R&D packs are sold during promotions vs any other time?

    I am pretty sure that mcdonalds doesn't sell more than a tiny percentage more sodas while they do their monopoly promotion. I am sure that cryptic sells VASTLY more R7D packs during these promotions. That is what shows it is truly gambling and the pack is just a cover.
    So what? McDonalds getting a 0.2% soda or french fry sales boost from the promotion amounts to millions of dollars due to the global scale of their company. If the promotion did not make them money McDonalds would not do it - and they certainly would not spend licensing fees for the Monopoly IP to do it.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • immudzenimmudzen Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Maybe you are right and maybe you arent im not here to argue that,for me the key of the discussion is that no one is forcing you to buy it,so in the end whose fault do you think it is?

    Overall assigning blame is not interesting to me.

    The person did make a choice to play a game with unclear rules. The rules should NEVER be unclear. It is deceptive as hell and should be fraudulent to not post the odds.

    Just remember there are many people out there that are not very smart and in most areas of our society we do setup laws to protect them. This game is specifically praying on them. If you just look at the posts where people are angry about this it is very clear they had no idea how low the odds are and the only way to find out the odds are from some posting you can find if you know to look.

    Also just in case it was also not clear mcdonalds does actually post the odds for the monopoly game. The same with every other real world game tied to products. Video games are actually one of the only places I can think of where you can have "gambling" and the odds are all hidden.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    immudzen wrote: »
    The person did make a choice to play a game with unclear rules. The rules should NEVER be unclear. It is deceptive as hell and should be fraudulent to not post the odds.
    The rules are not unclear. They were posted in the sale announcement. The problems is people are in a hurry. They do not bother to read the announcement. They just rush in based on their own assumptions rather then reading the facts; and then the moment it is not what they expected they run here to whine about it.

    At a certain point people need to start taking responsibility for their own actions and stop blaming everyone else for their own carelessness.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • nimbullnimbull Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    lilbro35 wrote: »
    i spent 90 dollars on opening those boxes and not one ship. i want to be either rembersed or i want my ship!!!! i know of a few other ppl who spent 4 times that and didnt get a ship. this is rediculous!!! WE WANT OUR SHIPS!!!!

    This reminds me of the time I saw a co-worker in a factory I used to work at spend half of his pay check on lottery tickets and won like $15-20 out of $150 worth of tickets years ago. This was a man who painted his car with Krylon spray paint from Kmart. Gambling isn't supposed to get you to win things, it's supposed to get you spend money and keep chasing the carrot you'll never get.
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  • bobbydazlersbobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,532 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    lilbro35 wrote: »
    i spent 90 dollars on opening those boxes and not one ship. i want to be either rembersed or i want my ship!!!! i know of a few other ppl who spent 4 times that and didnt get a ship. this is rediculous!!! WE WANT OUR SHIPS!!!!

    sadly the money you paid was for the R&D packs not for the ship, you got what you paid for & you have no right to demand anything.

    perhaps next time you will be a little wiser with your money.

    When I think about everything we've been through together,

    maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

     and if that journey takes a little longer,

    so we can do something we all believe in,

     I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    immudzen wrote: »
    The difference is that people normally buy those drinks and the item is truly completely secondary. What percentage of R&D packs are sold during promotions vs any other time?

    Believe me, I understand that.. and I agree with you. The thing you have to remember is that our motivation doesn't change the fact in the eyes of the law. You're still being offered product 'X' for the price of 'Y' and you're getting just that. I totally agree with you, I find the practice shady and I personally don't take part in it. I do however, understand why it's not considered gambling and why it's not illegal. You're being sold an 'RnD pack with a bonus chance to win a ship,' and that's what you receive. Your motivation for buying it is irrelevant as far as the law is concerned.
    Gaming laws don't apply to stuff that is imaginary, that doesn't have any monetary value.

    I'm not sure where you get that, but it's not true. Zen has a monetary value. The physical 'reality' of the object is irrelevant, otherwise it would be illegal to sell services. It would be illegal to charge admission to a movie, etc. Entertainment value is a value, and the Zen you buy is a product with monetary value.

    I'm not sure why you would argue the point with someone who's actually agreeing with you (for once.) What you're purchasing is the Zen which is a product that contains a value. How you use it is up to you as a consumer. It's not 'gambling' because you're getting exactly what you're promised. You pay 'X' for 'Y' Zen which you can then use on an RnD pack. If you don't get the ship, you still get the RnD pack which is a service exchanged for your Zen.

    The example of Fallout 3 is not the same thing. If the slots in Fallout 3 required your Visa number to play, then it's gambling and would be regulated just like online gambling sites that take real money. This however, is a different scenario entirely.
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  • bobbydazlersbobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,532 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    I really don't see what is soo special about these lockbox & RnD pack ships that they deserve to have that kind of money spent on them especially when you take into consideration they are not account unlocks.

    for that kind of money you could buy 3 T6 ships that are account unlocks, how are these any better, other then you can pose with them in front of other players that you have got what they have not.

    When I think about everything we've been through together,

    maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

     and if that journey takes a little longer,

    so we can do something we all believe in,

     I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

  • immudzenimmudzen Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    You can't sell your zen to other people. Once your money is in the game, you can't get it back out. zen is a service you pay for.

    The point is, if you can't win money or something which you can sell for money, it isn't gambling in the sense that laws regulate it.

    Gambling in sto is exactly like gambling in fallout new Vegas.

    Sure, you have to pay money for fallout new Vegas, but winning on a slot machine in the game can't be translated to winning real money, that's why gambling laws don't regulate it.

    It's one of the biggest reasons so many MMOs don't let you sell your virtual stuff for real money, because then gambling in the game would be subject to gambling laws.

    Gambling in Fallout New Vegas is NOT like gambling in STO. You pay for Fallout New Vegas just once and you can play the slots as much as you want since currency is basically limitless and trivial to acquire in the game. The other issue is that people don't play Fallout New Vegas for the slots but a heck of a lot of people play STO with the box gambling as a pretty primary aspect.

    There is just no way you could use hundreds of dollars in Fallout New Vegas. Right now Fallout New Vegas + all DLC is $20. That is your absolute worst case monetary commitment. It can't can't really be greater than that.
  • hyefatherhyefather Member Posts: 1,286 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    lilbro35 wrote: »
    i spent 90 dollars on opening those boxes and not one ship. i want to be either rembersed or i want my ship!!!! i know of a few other ppl who spent 4 times that and didnt get a ship. this is rediculous!!! WE WANT OUR SHIPS!!!!

    Please, Please, Please. I Tell you the Honest to God truth. The Elachi Sheshar ship is one of the worst ships in the game. Whats worse than Spending money to try and win won is actually winning one and finding out it is pure 100% TRIBBLE. The only thing that makes the ship a little and very little appealing is the trait. BUT IT SUCKS ALSO becasue it only works every 30 secs unlike other traits simular to it that activate every 10 secs. Please, Please trust me. The ship is junk. If you was to win it you wouldn't use it. Just go to ESD and cycle through all the maps while outside the space station. You won't see that many sheshars, not becasue they are rare but because they set in drydock not being used. If I could repackage mine I'd trade it to you cheap. Every faction has a 5/3 ship that is easily 2x better than the sheshar and alot cheaper. Ask anyone who has one.

    Its just not worth the worry, time or money. Plus it flys like a Giant dump truck.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    You pay for zen in sto, what you do with the zen after doesn't matter. And you don't have to buy zen to gamble in sto, you can buy gambling keys and packs for EC.

    It's exactly identical to fallout new Vegas, and in the real world, that's exaxtly the specific reason sto and other mmos arent subject to gambling laws.

    Because the prizes for betting virtual currency with no cash value are virtual items with No. Cash. Value.

    You're wrong, Zen has a cash value even though it can be purchased in game. Have you ever wondered why Zen exists in the first place? Why not just sell ships for $30? Why make us spend the money on Zen first?

    Its for this very reason, its so you get something for your money and they avoid gambling laws. Its why Zen exists in the first place. Anything you sell for real money has a monetary value be it a good or a service. Zen serves as the 'something' you get for your money, its an intermediary between real money and virtual items. It exists for the purpose of legal compliance. This is why all games with micro-transactions have an intermediary form of currency.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • potasssiumpotasssium Member Posts: 1,225 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    I grinded dilithium to buy zen to buy boxes and keys to sell on the exchange to get the EC for the intelligence Sheshar when it first came out. Not butthurt they made a command one, would try to get it if the difference was greater than just a Boff seat.

    Things are worth what people are willing to pay, paid 495mil EC for my Sheshar when I got her, only three were on the exchange and that was the cheapest one. She is still my main's primary ship.

    But then I do marauding on 9 toons and turn in contrabands and colonist on 12, so dilithium can build up quick.
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