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Engineers are in dire need of a boost - The class, BOff abilities, and even gear.
praxi5
Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
EDIT: To be perfectly clear, I am aware that there is no relation between the Class, BOffs, and Gear. Fixing one doesn't fix the other. Buffing the BOff abilities doesn't suddenly make the Captain Class better. But I'm simply calling attention to Engineering as a whole needs looked at.
(Space) Engies seriously need some loving. Yes, it's possible to make an Engineer successful, both by pumping out damage and by tanking. But why?
Let's take a look at their Captain abilities.
BOff abilities:
Gear:
Admittedly, healing has gotten some great gear in the recent past - Kobali set, Radiant console, even the Iconian set. But none of that benefits Engies exclusively, nor does it help with any of the other glaring issues with... well, everything Eng.
(Space) Engies seriously need some loving. Yes, it's possible to make an Engineer successful, both by pumping out damage and by tanking. But why?
- The missions that they're not totally sidelined in (HSE, for example) are few and far in between.
- In order to generate Threat to tank, you need to keep up high, sustained DPS - something Tacs and even Scis are better at.
- SciFleet and Dampening Field offer excellent tanking abilities, in an AoE,, while also providing excellent (Sensor Scan) and good (Photonic Fleet) damage boosts. SNB also makes an incredibly powerful defensive ability in PvP, and to a much lesser extent, PvE.
- If you choose to go the healer route, Sci the better choice... again. Sci's tanking abilities are AoEs, so you can protect people with them. Engies are entirely self-focused (save for EPS Power Transfer), so if you're healing, 3/4 of your Captain abilities aren't used to that end.
Let's take a look at their Captain abilities.
- Rotate Shield Frequency: A low shield heal, that TSS 1 at average Aux can match. A high shieldRes bonus that, while helpful, is handicapped - there is a 75% shieldRes hardcap. Between EPtS' shieldRes, the resistance given by power levels (from EPtS and Leech), and "free" resists given by Rep/Fleet shields, you're already packing high shieldRes.
- EPS Power Transfer: Some (but not a lot) of gear offers free +PowerTransfer, but that skill can largely be worked around by anyone with half a brain. The +Power component would have been amazing, if Leech didn't exist - at nominal skilling, you can expect +2/stack. That's +16 to each subsystem, always. No CD. If you gear into it, you can get nearly +5/stack. +40 to each subsystem, without a CD. Even without Leech, there are so many other sources of +Power from gear (Warp Cores, etc)
- Nadion Inversion: Would have been great, except you can replicate it's Drain protection for Weapons with other things (DOffs, Borg 2pc, overcapping), and the new Nandi trait (on Tribble) allows anyone to use a ghetto NI. With a lower CD, to boot. Plus NI doesn't even do too terribly much to help against Borg Tachyon Beams.
- Miracle Worker: Great "oh *****" button. But the RIF (Samsar console) gives a larger heal with a far more desirable secondary effort (shield heal vs HUGE HoT).
- EngFleet: It's not even good compared to the other Fleet abilities, ignoring all of the other issues with it.
BOff abilities:
- DEM: Too high of a CD to matter. It used to be helpful to run (w/ DOff) back when Aux to Batt was FoTM, but without a massive CD reduction, it's effectiveness is laughable with an uptime that's abysmal.
- Aceton Beam: Just... no. I'd be happy to explain why, but I think most (all) of you know it's issues.
- Boarding Party: Too slow, too little of an effect, too susceptible to AoEs.
- Strucual Integrity Collapse: The people that benefit from this the most (Engies and Cruisers) ironically get the least benefit from this - it's amazing in the hands of a PartGen Sci or Tac. Quite potent in PvP (100% shield bypass, boosted by PartManip), meh to "OK" in PvE.
- RSP: Debatable. It's one of those "slot if if you have room for it, but don't go out of your way for it" abilities. Decent "oh n0es!" button, but can be replaced by other things like RnR (provided you run away) or RIF (Samsar console).
Gear:
- Resistance consoles: Everyone should be running 1 of these... but maybe only 1. Diminishing returns takes a heavy toll on them, and you get "free" resistances from places like the Intel spec tree.
- +Power consoles: Ugh, what a disaster. They were nerfed from +7 to +3.5 because it was "too easy to obtain and maintain high power levels in multiple systems"... and then they go ahead and release Leech.
- Conductive RCS: These are great! But they're unique, unlike Tac consoles or the [Pla] or even [ShH]/[HuH] consoles. And they boost Sci abilities, oddly enough.
- +Threat consoles are Sci. Weird, considering Threat is one of the biggest components involved with tanking. (Yes yes, I know that Engineering consoles aren't only used by Engineering captains/tanks.)
- Eng consoles as a whole: If you look at people's loadouts, you'll see that Eng slots are largely dumping grounds for Universal consoles. Tac consoles are of obvious use. Sci consoles are now just as valuable, if not more, than Tac consoles due to PartGen builds and the Embassy [Pla] proc. Eng has nothing that can compare, let alone compete.
Admittedly, healing has gotten some great gear in the recent past - Kobali set, Radiant console, even the Iconian set. But none of that benefits Engies exclusively, nor does it help with any of the other glaring issues with... well, everything Eng.
Post edited by praxi5 on
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They dont have to do something with each other, you are the one (or rather the player is the one) to connect them like this. Especially the engineering consoles are totally seperated from the Captain itself.
Of course.
Each component (Captains, Boffs, and gear) are totally independent of one another. Boosting one doesn't fix the other - giving us new Eng consoles that are some awesome as the [Pla] proc won't do squat to fix the Class.
I'm simply saying that Eng everything needs a boost. I'll edit the OP so it's more clear
The rest, sure aceton beam sucks, the miracle worker argument im not sure about, given you have to slot a console for its better replacement. And dem is great with the correct build and/or doffs. +pwr consoles yea blow for the most part nobody uses em.. I dont personally use resist consoles, but theyre fine if youre going for a damage mop. Eng fleet.. Is ok but yea dont disagree sci and tac fleet are more prominent.
You're right, I forgot to mention conductive RCS. I'll throw that in there.
You've also highlighted the issue there; the Polaric console isn't bad to throw in there because there isn't much else (other than Universals) that you would put in there.
Correct. I would be interested in maybe a eng console mod that does the same thing as warp cores in regards to power sharing.. E. G. Eps flow regulator mk xii (w->a) adds a small percentage of power from one system to another seeing as power creep isnt a problem anymore apparently. Less than a core obviously but just an idea.. I dont disagree eng consoles are lacking besides the ones i mentioned. Or maybe a different console altogether.. Emergency weapon cylinder or something when power is below x in a certain system, automatically use power from y subsystem as a boost. Sort of like aux to anything but could xfer like.. Shields to aux or engines to weapons.
I'm mostly okay with engineering consoles being basically trash - I need somewhere to dump my universals. I also think the combination of EPTx abilities, RSP, and heals make the general state of engi powers pretty much alright
But then you have the captain abilities, which you can basically duplicate on any other class now. That's what gets me. Nevermind that engi's were in need of love in space before, we have no class-unique abilities any more. That's just disgusting.
Sure, you can fly engi's and do fine, but the question of why becomes increasingly bigger. Everybody knows why you'd run a sci, or a tac. But the question of engineers...
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Eng fleet could boost resistance by % rather than rating.
DEM could use a small cooldown reduction.
Boarding Party should work like Borg BP.
Aceton Beam...maybe a damage resist debuff.
Second, there is incredible nonsense in saying an ability is obsolete because there is a console that does something similar, especially when it is a lockbox console that most people will never have. Further, consoles and BOFF powers are a zero sum game. Put on a leech console? Okay, the engineer can do without one and can use something else. An engineer has RSF? Okay, maybe you can slot fewer shield heals.
Third. Engineers are not healers or tanks. There is no trinity, to think of them as such is simply wrong. They have particular abilities that do particular things. None of them include healing others or tanking for others. As I said above, the abilities they have may be used to allow different BOFF or console loadings.
Fourth, BOFF abilities and engineering consoles are completely unrelated to engineer captains. Different things for a different discussion.
Onto some specific points:
I generally agree with the issues mentioned regarding the specific engineer BOFF powers. Those specifically could use some real work.
On resistance consoles, the diminishing returns is not close to severe at all because it they are based on giving effective HP and work very well at that.
I can't disagree with power consoles being worthless. They just are. Even without having a leech console, there is always something better to slot, even if they were doubled in value.
Threat consoles? Okay if they were engineering consoles then you're trading away potential resistances for more threat. What does a tank need with science consoles exactly? I'd say they fit very well there. Science consoles benefiting part gen builds are a small microcosm of STO builds and should not even be relevant to the discussion, certainly not to tanking.
The problem is the whole game is designed to kill enemies as fast as possible. Engineers abilities and BOFF skils support tanking, which is nowhere needed (or at least x times less needed than Firepower)
DEM especially could also use a power buff. The only reason to use it is because of Marion DOFF. It's shield penetration is not worth mentioning on normal builds imo.
I think the devs should simply add a 4th level of each of them, so Engineering heavy ships had some advantage on their own, and more offer more diverse builds.
For ground, i'd say they should remove the long build up animations for turrets/mortars and generators. Let that stuff just beam in, but don't keep me from running and shooting.
(It may be just a few seconds but in Ground Combat these seconds are vital imo.)
From the first couple of lines i did read, all i saw was someone who has no true idea how to play an Engineer toon.
Engineers are, and will likely continue to be formidable protagonists.
In PvE they shine in both space and ground combat, and if used correctly, their innate skills and buffs, can be devastatingly effective, at not only "tanking" but also in increasing damage.
On the ground they are "froicken AWESOME!" 2 engi's fightin' it out, would very much be like an immovable object vs an unstoppable force. Whether you are a "Bunker Builder" surrounding yourself with Mines, Bombs and Generators, or a "Mobile Artillery" with Drones, Turrets, Combat Supplies and even Orbital Strikes FFS!
Nope ... I'm afraid I don't see the OP's point of view at all and completely disagree with their assertions.
If anything Science toons need the boost to their Damage/Debuff skills, though primarily it'd be only really needed at lower levels. Moving some of the skills down to Ens (as they also should do with Cannon skills for Tac's) would be helpful.
I agree 100% only because the definition of % doesn't allow for any more.
Seriously, though. Engineers once were the masters of system power and survivability. Now, any other class can do the same.
I think redoing some of the engineering captain powers would be awesome.
As for the consoles? The only ones I use are the fleet neutroniums +turn and maybe the console from delta flight. I'm thinking of getting the special crafted engineering console if I can get a mod on it I like. Other than that, they'er mostly either too weak for the cost of a console slot or give no benefit at all because of diminishing returns.
I've played an Engie for over 3 years now, I think I've got the hang of them, thank you.
They "shine" in Space Combat? If they "shine", why are they so outperformed in nearly everything by their Sci counterparts, and blown out of the water by Tacs? Especially at the "increasing damage" that you said? @jarvisandalfred, the guy who holds the Engineer DPS record, even said that Engineers are of dubious use now on the first page. But of course, you didn't read anything.
Sure, I'll give you Ground - but I don't do much Ground, so I can't comment on that with as much knowledge.
And, for what it's worth, while I can appreciate not wanting to read walls of text, starting your argument with "Well I didn't even read what you had to say, but here's why you're wrong" isn't the best way to get people to agree with you nor even take what you've said seriously.
I ignored Ground because I admittedly barely even touch my Eng on Ground, and my Ground knowledge as a whole is totally lacking compared to Space. Hence why I specified Space in OP :P
I can see your point in that. In order to emulate one of the Eng class abilities (emulate, not replicate), you need to give up something like a console slot.
The problem there is that anyone can emulate Eng abilities, whereas an Eng can't come close to something like popping APA or Dampening Field.
Everyone can get a ghetto MW or Nadion Inversion, but you can't say the same for GDF or Photonic Fleet. (Don't doubt the Photonics - I've seen them do around 2k damage... more than some pugs, unfortunately :P)
I know, and I addressed that in the very first line of the OP, and I also addressed how fixing one doesn't mean you've fixed the other. I'm just saying that everything Engineering-related could use a look.
Sci consoles boost your first line of defense, Shields. Both capacity and healing. PartGen builds aren't the only ones to benefit from Sci consoles; any DPS build (which you will be needing to tank, due to the way threat is generated) uses Flow Capacitor consoles (to boost Leech) with the [Pla] proc for some nasty explosions.
Nope not even ground, all they have is weapons off line, root, and mines.
Lets see: weapons offline -> willpower, gone
Root -> willpower, gone
Mines -> move 2 inches, not damaging.
Now lets see sci:
Infinite heals
Instant 700 damage fire
Lots of AoE 300 damage attacks
Now lets see tac:
5k Sniper crits or more.
Almost as much healing as scis now with the broken Drolid doffs
Bufed rep powers I.E. Tachyon Emission.
Yah for ground id have to say, engs are vastly out played. Now lets look at space
Engs: Best tanks
Lower DPS
Defense over Offense
Sci: Medium Tanks
Mid Range DPS due to - res and pets
Crowd control.
Tac: Highest damage
Lowest tanks but still can be quite tanky (kobali console ftw)
Can pick up all ships and make them realy nasty (sci ships with 900% reflect fbp)
Can do a "vape" to insta kill.
While id have to give Engs more merit for space, they are easily matched and out played by other classes.
And before you go off and say "doesn't know what hes doing, confused beyond compare, must be a noob", why don't you come challenge me in game? Will happily use Eng or Tac (my poor sci is still lvl 50) but will find a sci who will do it. PvP or PvE.
Like what? Is sensor can not debuffing enough res?
Is subnuke not stripping all the buffs?
Is scattering field not making your ship have a LOT more res therefore the target does less to you?
Honestly sci skills are probably some of the best ones in the game at the moment, heck just look at Resonance Beam. Can get isokinetic cannon to hit for 100k instead of 13k. Id call that a MAJOR res debuff (probably more than the tooltip says)
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Now *this* is a start-post of yours I like! :P
I agree with everything, except maybe for Miracle Worker (especially when it becomes a 'double-tap' deal with Grace Under Fire), which I find incredibly good, and allows me to make 'weaker' (= more offense-oriented) builds than I otherwise could.
*nods* Yeah, the ridiculously long cd ruins the whole deal.
SIC (Sic!) is really powerful, IMHO, when you don't slot it for its own damage (which is pretty negligible, unless boosted by incredible amounts of PartGens); but consider it a Torp-support skill, weakening your foe's Kinetic Damage Resistance (of course, it requires the use of a torp; the high(-ish) PrtG already used for this ability makes the PEP an ideal choice), and suddenly it proves quite useful.
Structural Integrity Collapse is actually the only Engi resistance debuff we have. I wouldn't deem it at all unfair when SIC became either a native Engineer-specific Captain ability, or became part of DEM or something (catching 2 birds with 1 stone, while they're at it).
In space, a Tac Captain geared for tanking can still do more than an Eng Captain geared for tanking, due to being able to draw aggro more easily (and still contribute some DPS to pull). If Engineers had some Captain-based aggro-drawing skills, they'd have their niche.
BOFF skill-wise isn't much better, you have 2-3 offensive skills and the rest all situational (not to mention, many of them share cooldowns, making it difficult to get a solid Eng build going at all). If they at least decoupled shared CDs among the Aux and Emergency skills (only sharing CDs on same skills at different ranks), there'd be a bit more viability among Eng BOFF skills.
At least Engineers still have more ships going for them (even moreso than Tacs still); Sci players outside of the Federation haven't gotten squat since the Delta Pack and Pathfinder (Sarr Theln doesn't count; being a Sci-oriented Carrier, rather than a dedicated Sci ship).
But we already know how this is going to turn out. Cryptic will answer the calls for Engineer and Science love by simply making their skillsets and playstyle more comparable to Tactical Officers.
You want some cruiser loving? Awesome. We'll pump out a cruiser with better Tactical abilities. You want a better Science vessel? You got it. Let's slap some more Tactical Consoles on it and soup up your exotic damage.
Blueshirts and Goldshirts will always play second-string to Tactical Officers and will always be measured by how much of a Tactical Officer they aren't, but wish they could be.
I love Engineers and Science Officers. I don't love that Cryptic thinks the end-all-be-all of STO gameplay is damage output.
Bridge Officer and Captain abilities for Engineers and Science Officers should be viable and rewarding based on the player's ability to be the best Engineer/Science Officer they can be. Not how much they can emulate and mimic the damage capabilities of a Tactical Officer.
I could not agree more. Esp. for Ground
I love being an Engineer. Tac is just plain DPS for me, no smarts, no Tactics, nothing. Sorry for that but it is how i feel. Pre-DR i was good, real good. Drop aTurret here, a mortar there and triple your firepower but now ith all the superstrong enemies that can stun and teleport and whatever and without the money to get XIV gear i am really bad.
Countless times i died in Brotherhood just because i placed a mortar or turret and got hit by an AoE attack or a thrall appeared behind me and cut me to pieces. Or my constructs didn`t last long enough to do damage.
Tacs have the cloak and DPS increasing skills and Grenades they just need to throw, Sci has immense healing skills but most of the engineering Kit modules are constructs. Generators, Turrets, Mortars, Drones. They can be attacked and destroyed. I can build a Bunker with shield, Turret, Mines and drones but if the enemy can stay out of the Range of the turret and destroy everything else (in PvP for example) with a Sniper rifle my skills are useless.
Med. Generators could be attached to my body appearing as a wrist gear or so, so they create an AoE healing area that moves with my toon, same for generators and mortars, they could materialize on my shoulder/back so we don't have constructs that take time to deploy and don't evel last the same time before they get destroyed.
And in Space we could need some abilities that redirect incoming fire to our weapons ann mkae the next shots a lot stronger like Bo I or II for each shot or redirect it to the shields to make them stronger, almost impenetrable. Would it be OP? No, because Tacs already can increase their Weapons power a lot without any problem. And with the new traits they can reduce the cooldown a lot
If you take the standard traits a player can start the game with and only use a t5 ship, the engineer has a huge advantage in managing his energy in space. The result is more weapons power, stronger shields, higher speed and better space magic. Viewed like this, the engineer is almost the tacticals equal.
Sadly this strong suit of the engineer has been swept aside by items and traits that make any sort of power management utterly redundant.
First there was the plasmonic leech. That thing already destroyed any semblance of balance there might have been. Later on, traits like "supremacy", make sure power is a none-issue for everyone that can afford them.
At this point, there are a lot of engineer abilities that are flat out redundant because time and power creep caught up with them. Overall this is rather sad since it also indicates that certain elements of the game have fallen to the wayside.
also, anything stated as awesome for engineers has found it's way into traits and consoles for all other classes to enjoy too...
I don't think this has all been planned by cryptic but rather this is an oversight. People have been asking for more survivability for years. Now that we get it, it's redundant on an engineer and buffs tac and sci.
I gotta wonder about you "Other" guys that play STO from time to time.
First off... Did you adjust your traits before you actually start fighting on the ground (You can de-slot/reslot traits as long as your not in combat.. so.. like why not slot ALL ground traits for ground fighting and all space traits when your in space?)?
You gotta plan ahead and tune your toon to fight these bums! You need to tune your away team also.
Technical points: Antiproton resistance is a must have against the Iconians.. go shopping, sorry, welcome to STO.
((and if you were wondering why body armor and personal shields with AP resist are so damd expensive on the market, now you know. Alternative method.. go back through mission content and note gear with AP resist being rewarded. go do mission and get gear, tech upgrade it!))
If your having issues getting pets out, planted and firing... DUDE, send the away team in first! You follow, you plant support gear, then get your wounded up, THEN you can start shooting at things.
USE your away team... Most players do not get that the away team is not the players support, the player is the AWAY teams support! They are script operated and will attack any enemy they detect OR YOU TARGET and initiate any action against. So they are a seeking weapon. Give em good gear.. Retrain them if you don't like the skill suite they have.
Ground combat is a very much entirely different game in sto. You need to make sure there is a whole bunch of synergy in your gear, talents, skills, and kit powers. Now up front. This is something everyone can manage for their character, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the person. But damd few think to consider which DOFF's they bring and how they are equipped.
Even the specie is important because of the racial traits.
Anyway, the Heralds are tough on everyone man.. If you think your dieing way to stupidly often then you need to bring up your game. If your not going to put the effort in, I'm sorry.
What would the JJ Kirk say? Oh yea right "Buckle up!"
Fabrications are not fragile to the point of being useless, but they are situational, and take some thought to use properly. Maybe they could be a bit tougher, but you can get some use out of them.
Space . . . yeah, I wouldn't mind a boost or two there, especially Nadon Inversion. Weapon Energy Drain has changed considerably since launch, and this ability in particular feels like a relic.
Watch, this will be when Cryptic decides to hear us and finally do something with the Crew mechanic... by giving Nadion Inversion a huge +CrewRes buff and calling it a day :P