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How can we monetize PvP?
praxi5
Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
Yes, we've gotten the shaft so far. Yes, we've all paid our dues, either via subscription time (including before F2P), or buying ships/upgrading gear/lockboxes.
But the name of the game now is monetization, and it really seems that like that's the only way we're going to see any PvP development.
Bort has kindly indicated that he does still read threads in the PvP section, but he's reluctant to reply since it's a "minefield." Which, I think we can all agree with.
Yes, we know that it's not our fault that PvP is the way that it is, and the community is admittedly toxic due to all of the frustrations behind years of no development/backwards movement due to power creep.
But going around in those circles again isn't going to help - we need to help either find ways or suggest ways that would monetize PvP in an effort to maybe get them to decide that it's worth (both financially and time wise) to develop for us.
What do you think? Map packs? Game types/queues that are "unlocked" via the C-Store? Exclusive mods/gear? Buying a token that allows yourself to be ranked on an official leaderboard? "Premium" queues that are even out teams via match making?
But the name of the game now is monetization, and it really seems that like that's the only way we're going to see any PvP development.
Bort has kindly indicated that he does still read threads in the PvP section, but he's reluctant to reply since it's a "minefield." Which, I think we can all agree with.
Yes, we know that it's not our fault that PvP is the way that it is, and the community is admittedly toxic due to all of the frustrations behind years of no development/backwards movement due to power creep.
But going around in those circles again isn't going to help - we need to help either find ways or suggest ways that would monetize PvP in an effort to maybe get them to decide that it's worth (both financially and time wise) to develop for us.
What do you think? Map packs? Game types/queues that are "unlocked" via the C-Store? Exclusive mods/gear? Buying a token that allows yourself to be ranked on an official leaderboard? "Premium" queues that are even out teams via match making?
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I remember :P
But maybe some fresh ideas, based on the current meta, or even just bringing it up again so that it gets visibility.
No really, to make it more appealing right now you need to adjust the mechanics, not selling it. It would be another way to discourage players from playing it.
The money will come from people investing resources to buy good ships, stuff, doffs and traits in order to mix and match their builds, just like it was pre-DR. The upgrade system, overpowered things and sheer imbalance between new and old players are what killed it.
I agree that adding yet another pay wall is not the most desirable solution.
And that fixing the mechanics should be the first step, before anything else is even considered.
But there's no many to be made by doing that, money is pretty much the name of the game right now. I think it's safe to say that we should give up hopes of getting any real content that isn't hidden behind a paywall of some sort at this point.
There was a lot of easily accessible power creep at that time. I know this alienated many players, but it was never easier to make a PvP ready toon. Less than 30 days, a couple hundred thousand fleet credits, 20 days doing sponsored rep, a fleet ship and some other gear totaling maybe 20 million ec. Roll a Romulan/Reman for extra OPness.
Now, we have the spec grind as a barrier to entry, as well as going epic. A time-gated/pay-walled barrier unlike anything we had before. Now a PvP ready toon takes months to grind out. Not months of let me log in and do some doffing and cycle my rep projects. No, this is second job type grinding.
There were doffs and powers that afforded a variety of builds. There was enough power for a Kirk, but teamwork was still OP. Now it's twitch vape vs FBP. The meta is a joke because of runaway power introduced with no real checks. What incentive is there for innovation? How can one learn from twitch gameplay? What real challenge is there? Might as well get one shotted by an NPC that can't verbally abuse you afterwards.
A leveless system won't work, Vanilla PvP's death proved that such a venture would stagnate and fail. People want to play with their ships and shineys. And monster play is pretty much PvE. Neither is a reasonable solution.
I used to think the only real solution is what had been called for forever: matchmaking, proper leaderboards, and rewards. But now balancing, pretty much a Herculean task at this point, is an essential requirement for PvP to live again. But of course, where's the money in that?
I've come to this inescapable conclusion: It's dead Jim. They should delete PvP like they deleted clusters. All we can do is hope for a new STO entirely (years off of course) which has balance for PvP in mind.
powercreep only should happen within a certain span in pvp imo. another main frame should be consistency. well thought out long-term agendas!
the thing with the placates f.e., no talk about disables. i think most of us can recall that rollercoaster
keep players u got by staying consistent, release stuff that got tested and its feedback implemented before release and attract new players with good community-leading/-moderating/-engagement and that way earn more money with new pvp'ers.
(outspared more indicators for contracting actions made by the publishing company. i'll be constructive
there's always hope they say
Get me in as a forum mod....
Cause I'll make all you sum of a guns PAY AND PAY AND PAY!
See what I did there?
ON TOPIC: If you believe in the whale business model that's been floating around, and I don't, it's easy to see that PVPers are straight up whales. How much discussion has there been about the P2win? Much. Because people were buying ships to pew pew with. Good or bad. I have no opinion on that.
It's just there weren't ever enough of us I guess.
Like this guy said:
Here's an idea: get more people to play the game, provide an environment where they want to expirement with different parts of the metagame, then let them spend money on ships and gear as part of normal interaction. So crazy it just might work
Krazy
I think adding PvP unique items to the C-Store is a bad idea, it will basically widen the gap between the pay-2-win crowd and the free-2-play crowd, basically it would mean people who pay the most win the most, which is a slippery slope and would just serve to make the PvP crowd even smaller than it already is...
Personally, I feel adding some actual mission type scenarios to PvP with objectives rather than just 'kill kill kill' would greatly benefit PvP. (I am aware of the 'cap and hold' scenarios, but they are just one type of mission, variety please?)
Also add some form of ranking system to keep rookies and veterans in different 'leagues' so those who don't PvP often aren't being 'encouraged' to leave by being blasted by veterans in seconds..
Also, those PvP [mods] on crafted weapons (I don't know if they actually work or not, I hear they're bugged... not the point right now lol), might be useful if they actually provided some worthwhile benefits in matches.
I don't feel that +8 damage resistance rating will be very effective when we take into consideration the diminishing returns on resistance rating and PvPers would likely have resistances upwards of 35+ % anyway, so +8 rating would boost that by... how much? Off hand I dunno, hardly worth giving up a [CrtD] or [CrtH] mod though...
Same with the PvPDmg mod, +3 damage vs. players is hardly worth using. I looked up AP beam arrays on the exchange this morning:
Antiproton Beam Array MK II [Acc] [CrtH] [PvP Res] = 123.4 damage per shot
Antiproton Beam Array MK II [CrtD] [Dmg] [PvP Res] = 128.4 damage per shot
Antiproton Beam Array MK II [Acc] [CrtH] [PvP Dmg] = 123.4 dps (PvP Dmg +3 damage vs players)
According to the above values [PvP Dmg] actually adds LESS damage than a standard [Dmg] mod, and the [Dmg] mod is widely considered useless (common opinion among players), so what does that mean for [PvP Dmg]?
I do believe that the [PvP Mods] can be useful for PvPers IF they were buffed somewhat.
As a community I believe we can effect actual change in-game and perhaps revive PvP to at least being registered as 'alive' lol.
If we can provide constructive input like the above, instead of:
player #1. X is OP.
Player #2. I agree.
Player #3. No it's not, you're an idiot.
None of this helps at all, and just serves to breed hostility among the community...
Oh, one last thing the term 'power creep' is thrown around a lot lately, in PvP and PvE, perhaps if we could offer examples of such 'power creeps' instead of:
Player: POWER CREEP fix it!
Dev guy: What?
To give you a personal perspective, I haven't been spending money in this game since balance issues got out of hand, I am not spending money in this game until balance is addressed, and would not spend money in this game if PvP were monetized the way it is now. I have a number of friends that feel the same way.
The idea has merit, but it won't do any good if the core of the system is broken.
STO Screenshot Archive
I don't think the OP's idea is good. Selling maps and stuff. PvE doesn't do that, why should PvP? It'd be another major setback.
Create playalbe Borg ships and put them in lockboxes.
If a player has one of these ships it opens up a new que.
This Que would be for ISA. The player would be allowed to participate as whatever Borg ship he had.
If he takes out a Scimitard or two during the 2 minutes the event takes, all the better.
This would be super secret and we would never tell the PVE guys.
Same goes for the game in general. It should be no duh. I was spending dollars on STO before they started shoving cash-grabs down my throat. Big surprise: Make a quality game and I'll buy into it.
Monster play with a twist. I like it. {evilgrin} Not sure how you promote it enough to make money at it and still keep it a secret, though.
On a more serious note, can't see secretly trolling the queues as a good thing.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Not everybody's looking at the same requests from Cryptic though, so not everybody's going to be looking at monetization in the same way.
There are folks that just want some new maps.
There are folks that just want some new gameplay types.
There are folks that just want things to work different in PvP compared to PvE.
There are folks that just want a leaderboard tracking system in place.
There are folks that just want some vanity things for PvP.
There are folks that just want this or just want that.
There are folks that want multiple things.
There are folks that want all that and more.
None of it is wave a magic wand and it's done for free, is it?
Folks want stuff...then perhaps present the business case for Cryptic to show where they can get a return on the investment.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
You're right, it really shouldn't. I don't like it any more than you do, but at this point, it's a necessity.
No money = no development. Not even Maps, if past history is to be believed.
Balanced and fun or not
My point exactly. We tried it years ago, and nothing came about. But hopefully if we do it now, things will be different?
they have monetizing it down to a science. though they are very poor at gagging moderation in creep, seeing as they KILLED PVP WITH IT.
no tech trees no rep skills
This would sell and make money for a price PvP with
Stock ships that are BALENCED with there own gear and weapons
This would sell
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Monster play, exactly.
Yes it wouldn't be a secret, and it could go very poorly.
Now if all the PVE lads got a really cool consumable bonus of some sort for unwittingly participating in "Holodeck Training" as well as the normal bonus for completing an STF I could honestly see some good interactions coming of it.
Consumable. Like a party hat. A ship hologram. An hour buff. Something.
Or what Virus as well as some others have said. Put a LOT of work into it.
EDIT: Bring back Ganalda Station!
That's the thing, some folks are looking at a little lot of work and others are basically looking at having a parallel game running at the same time - which in turn would slow development of everything else.
Can't remember if it was Hawk or Bort that once said in one of the threads...start small.
Cause a lot of the ideas are pretty big out there and would require a Hell of a lot of work...
But will small things matter?
Gets into something where some surveying/polling...of what's possible, would it matter, and take it from there.
So it gets into driving new business, retaining that business, and working in some returning business from those that have left.
But never forgetting that the game is what it is...which puts it at odds for so many things and in of itself keeps the overall population down, thus the PvP population down.
Big ideas that are unrealistic...little ideas that probably just don't matter.
That's the crux of things, eh?
* * * * *
It comes up a few times a year...it doesn't go anywhere.
It's hard not just to go "Doom, Doom, Doom...Merry Doom, one and all!"
But it's something where maybe, somebody might have something at the right time...and maybe it can get done and it opens the door to more, eh?
If the developer has no artistic integrity... its not a game worth playing for the PvP, it is also that simple.
Cryptic has proven that art in the form of game play isn't something they create. Well unless you consider the mass produced for the coin style of art that hangs in dentists offices art.
We have been telling them how to fix PvP for a long time... and anyone that has ever given them an idea has included how to make a few bucks on it... because we all know that is the only part they really care about.
To be "positive" though here I'll list my 10 Step way to fix PvP.
1) Delete all current Ques.
2) Use the PvE Que tech... and re-create a PvP Que, and get the map guys to use the same tech to create a few PvEvP maps ect.
3) Give everyone a SECOND ship model... that would work like our shuttle models. This model will allow you to activate a second ship from your ship stable.
4) The second model should only allow "mk XII - P" Gear to be slotted. -P gear should not include universal consoles. (yes this would remove them from PvP) -P gear should come from vendors on every major station, and be FREE green or blue level gear. There should be enough of everything to give people real options in build... however this removes all the MK 14 junk from the PvP game, as well as all rep sets ect... that don't really add any choice because Cryptic is terrible at balance and one will always end up being the only choice.
5) Import the Skinning Tech from the Risa Summer ship... for the PvP ship model. Add a "Cosmetic" slot on the PvP ship model for the "Deflector/engine/shield" Allowing people to pretty up there PvP model more then the PvE models.
6) Include PvP Paint scheme boxes... in the current lockbox, and future ones. (things like Camo Paint Scheme... Jet Black... Neon Pink.. Digital Camo ect) Also include Cosmetic items for the 3 slots... so Engine trails / Deflector Glows / Shield transforms ect.) New ones would be awsome... reusing some of the old PvE set ones would be acceptable.
7) PvP Model Device slots.... The Device slots on the PvP ships should also only be able to slot "-p" gear. This means they could sell for a SMALL amount of Dilihitum thngs like -p battaries. (it would also mean they could balance things like team battaries... or remove them from PvP completely) They could also sell NON GAME EFFECTING devices... everyone loves there Fireworks device which is ancient now. There is no reason we couldn't see all sorts of new cosmetic ship devices... ones that perhaps make the engines give off obnoxious glow for a few seconds... or new versions of fireworks, perhaps fireworks that pop in the form of a Klingon or Romulan Empire symbol, or things like thumbs up or down ect ect. The devices... could easily be put in lockboxes... or sold in packs on the zen store.
8) BALANCE THE PVP maps so that people in fact play them. What i have suggested would remove the issue of Uber gear... and rep sets... it wouldn't however address things like doffs / Rep / Traits ect... Doffs I think could likely be allowed with out causing massive in balances.... Rep and ship traits, I am not sure if those wouldn't perhaps still make PvP unfun. Bort mentioned once upon a time that they could change the variables on a PvP map possibly. If there was a way to disable personal and ship triats... or at least the ship traits, that might be fantastic. Another option would be to add a (In PVP X does Y) argument onto some of the traits most likely to cause balance issues.
9) Use the art guys for a 2 for one every time they release new content. If they release a new PVvE map like say the new Harbinger one... Use the same map... and spin off a PvP version. It can be added as a "Alliance/Starfleet/Rom/KDF training simulation... where other players will be assuming the roll of the aggressors" The art will already be created... the work will be reduced. (The aggressor part can be as simple as just letting everyone run there normal ships... however it would be a ton of fun imo... if at the very least everyone on the "monster" side at least had there skins changed to look like the bad guys)
10) Add to the foundry a way to publish Private Que PvP maps. Clearly we don't want players making maps for the normal PvP que... however being able to publish them for the Private ques would be a nice touch.
There it is... we could have a balanced mode using tech they have already added to the game and simply needs to be adapted. They can have more items to add to lockboxes... which would be cosmetic and fun device in nature. We could have an actual balanced game mode... that heck if done right could be almost Esport worthy. They would also make a ton of $$$ selling pure cosmetics... just like every other MMO company in the world. In fact the 3 slot cosmetic idea doesn't even need to be a PvP only idea... they COULD add a Cosmetic slot for Deflector/engine/Shield to the normal ship models as well. I mean its to late to balance there silly run away power creep PvE game... the cat is out of the bag there. However they could tear down PvP and rebuilt id as I suggest, there isn't really a ton of players left to complain about loosing there Uber Toys. (and if anyone pipes up... the rest of us can bonk them on the head and or drown there 14 year old voices out)
Selling "PvP Packs".
New queue on a new map. Let's leave it at Space PvP for the moment. Said queue has an option to turn on "PvP Pack Only". Or, queue only allows players to join if they have a PvP Pack.
What, you may ask, is a PvP Pack?
Basically, it would be a combination of the active ship mechanic and loadouts that has a preset ship, preset BOFF stations, preset everything. Everything in the pack would be selected by Cryptic with an eye toward balance and everything in the pack would be "levelless".
Right now, this very minute, everyone has an active Starship and an active Shuttlecraft available. If you enter a shuttle mission, you automatically switch to your shuttle. What I'm thinking would set an active "PvP Pack" that you automatically switch to whenever you enter a queue that only allows "PvP Packs". The only thing you get to bring that's not in the pack is your Captain.
Every player would get one faction-specific PvP Pack for free. Other PvP Packs could be available as rewards and some could be bought with Zen or Dilithium.
As an example, the basic Fed pack could be a cruiser equipped with standard weapons and preset BOFFs/DOFFs. The basic KDF pack could be a battlecruiser with appropriate weapons and other presets. Etc.
Want to fly a science vessel instead? Buy a different PvP pack. Want one with tetryon weapons? There's another pack for that. Heck, want to do Breen Vs. Cardassian? They could design packs for that, too. They could crank out PvP packs with a lot less effort than they put into building new ships, once the system is in place.
The plus side is that it could tend toward levelling the playing field since nobody gets to cram on stuff that many PvP'ers would consider P2W. The downside is, personal customization of the ship would not be possible.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I'm down with that. But for the love of Spode, I hope they would consult with people like Virus and Hilbert to create the packs.
Well, yeah. Also, it would prevent people from putting together sub-optimal builds.
I'm not saying it's the greatest idea ever and I already know there will be those who don't like it. There are still holes, like Specializations and Traits that potentially tip the playing field toward unbalance. And, nothing really stopping Cryptic from creating unbalanced packs except Cryptic.
It's just a thought.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Fixed that for you.