No it's not. It's not about how it looks. It's still going to be a game designed to be played with a game controller...there's no getting around that limitation since they need to design for that.
Stuff you can read at STO forums. ahahahaha.
Weakest link, Virus? in what world do you live in? Witcher was always a PC game first, and technical benchmark on top of it.
second, calling likes of Witcher, a game which has 1 map that's 2x bigger then entire Skyrim, or that has 1 smaller quest longer then entire campaign of likes of past chart champions like COD, "crappy" on forums of generally unknown low-budget and low-tech MMO like STO is teh pinnacle of stupidity. No wonder they are able to sell ship packs for $150 to such audience.
Seeing that you needed to google Witcher should have told me that you have no clue about anything gaming, but my mind couldn't process it at first.
Back to the bit about STO vs. "decent" and "good" games...something other than the vague terms "decent" and "good" - would be the kind of thing that bluegeek was likely talking about in being constructive. Some meat instead of fluff...
No it's not. It's not about how it looks. It's still going to be a game designed to be played with a game controller...there's no getting around that limitation since they need to design for that.
Well that is also not really an issue anymore. Companies are coming up with interesting ways to control PC games with tradtional console gear.
Heck Cryptic themselves have already ported Neverwinter. Don't kid yourself virus STO could be ported as well. There simply isn't any money in STO for a more mainstream console port.
Lets also be realistic about it, if the console companies saw a lot of money in mouse/keyboard they would add that.
As for RPG and RTS...RTS could easily be done on a console using the Gyro sensors as mouse input. I remember using a very early version of this years ago to play RTS on a projector while standing, was silly but effective. The only reason you don't see more RTS Console games isn't because of inputs. (I agree the inputs where terrible 10 years ago) these days they could easily be done with almost no real change from PC layout.
As for MMOs... its only a matter of time before Consoles become the standard way people play MMOs as well. Yes having 3-4 trays of things to click doesn't lend itself to a controller. However people that play MMOs more and more aren't looking for that. Look at a Pure PC MMO like Guild wars2... that game could Easily be ported to a console. Neverwinters controls where ported... and I would bet every new MMO forever more will have controls that can be adapted. Things like mouse input can be tied to gyros.... and having 5-6 buttons is enough. (and lets be honest it would be easy to make a PS4/Xbox controler act like it had 16... 4 buttons, then Left upper trigger + 4 buttons ect Strip STO back to what it was 4 years ago and that would have been enough.)
PS... we all know it would be cool as heck to have a Gyro Version of a Razor Naga. Imagine a Razor naga for Ps4/xbox one. Something like a Nintendo Wii Controller.. with a left hand controller to move and trigger what would basicly be a Shift/control/space bar type keys... and a left hand that would be a gyro mouse with a 10 key mouse layout. lol
second, calling likes of Witcher, a game which has 1 map that's 2x bigger then entire Skyrim, or that has 1 smaller quest longer then entire campaign of likes of past chart champions like COD, "crappy" on forums of generally unknown low-budget and low-tech MMO like STO is teh pinnacle of stupidity. No wonder they are able to sell ship packs for $150 to such audience.
Awwwww, iz u getz butthurtz 'n cryz nao? Did the mean ol' Virus not like the game you like?
Back to the bit about STO vs. "decent" and "good" games...something other than the vague terms "decent" and "good" - would be the kind of thing that bluegeek was likely talking about in being constructive. Some meat instead of fluff...
It's going all over the place because you are practically uninformed about subject you are talking about.
First, Witcher is not made for controler, but rather it can be played with it. Just like STO can be played with a spacebar and WASD.
So let's not be vague.(again)
STO can make more money if it starts being a decent game.
And it really isn't even close to decent if you try anything else on the market.
It isn't even a good Trek game. especially since they started selling power creep traits for $50.
Well that is also not really an issue anymore. Companies are coming up with interesting ways to control PC games with tradtional console gear.
Heck Cryptic themselves have already ported Neverwinter. Don't kid yourself virus STO could be ported as well. There simply isn't any money in STO for a more mainstream console port.
Lets also be realistic about it, if the console companies saw a lot of money in mouse/keyboard they would add that.
I snipped at that point, because obviously I'm not getting my point across.
I don't want to use a game controller to play certain games. The games being dumbed down to use a game controller...turns it into a game I don't want to play.
What you're talking about as a good thing...is a bad thing to me.
I won't play Neverwinter because of it. I won't play DCUO because of it. There are all sorts of games like that...which I won't play...because of that.
I love fighting games on consoles. The last three consoles I bought were for fighting games. Other games...just not my thing.
So let's not be vague.(again)
STO can make more money if it starts being a decent game.
And it really isn't even close to decent if you try anything else on the market.
It isn't even a good Trek game. especially since they started selling power creep traits for $50.
Dude, you trying to kill me by making me laugh so hard I have a stroke, aneurism, or something?
Awwwww, iz u getz butthurtz 'n cryz nao? Did the mean ol' Virus not like the game you like?
standard stupid new age internet response. congrats on this masterpiece.
go back to crunching numbers for Cryptic. because they obviously can't and won't.
opinions are not facts. no matter how strong your opinion is.
OMFGLMFAO...that's a beauty coming from the TRIBBLE you've been babbling like it's anything but opinion...vague opinion at that.
I mean, seriously, I'm the one that called what I said an opinion. Why are you trying to suggest I called it a fact? You even quoted me calling what I said an opinion there.
go back to crunching numbers for Cryptic. because they obviously can't and won't.
Which has what to do with anything?
(oh noes, I'm getting pwned again - looking like the dumbass I was last time - here, let me throw Cryptic into the mix and tell Virus to go crunch numbers)
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Dude, if you're going to try to PvP on the forums...try to arm yourself or something.
I snipped at that point, because obviously I'm not getting my point across.
I don't want to use a game controller to play certain games. The games being dumbed down to use a game controller...turns it into a game I don't want to play.
What you're talking about as a good thing...is a bad thing to me.
I won't play Neverwinter because of it. I won't play DCUO because of it. There are all sorts of games like that...which I won't play...because of that.
I love fighting games on consoles. The last three consoles I bought were for fighting games. Other games...just not my thing.
you do know that sto can be played with a xbox360 controller for pc right?
Which has what to do with Witcher 3's need to be designed for consoles?
This is what I mean about the weakest link comment not being the truth any longer though.
If you played Witcher 1 and or 2 you know those games where always controller friendly. The first game was a PC game... the later console port was put on another engine. Witcher 2 was a console/pc game. Back then your argument of weakest link would hold more water. Witcher 3 brings the PC/console versions almost to parity. (although as shark is getting at, it will still punish a top end PC if you crank everything up to 11). The control side of it isn't an issue anymore for most developers, I think its at a point where good developers have learned from the mistakes made by all the bad ports of the past. Other then a crazy number of keys what can't be done with a controller anymore... Gyro mouse input works well, and controllers can easily handle more keys then needed for engaging gameplay.
All the current generation game engines out there are cross platform now. For the next 5-10 years your going to see 95% of games built on Frostbite 3/Unitiy 5/Mizuchuhi/Cry Engine 4/Unreal 4 Every single one of those is PC/Xbox One/PS4... which means almost everyone of those games is going to be sold on PC and Console. It also means almost every game will have control schemes what will work on both. Its just a fact of life. I don't see that as a bad thing myself. One of the biggest issues MMOs have always had was attracting large player bases, because frankly not many people can handle dancing accross 4-5 12 slot rows of skills and items to play a game. I enjoy those games myself... however I much more enjoy playing something like GW2 with its 8-10 buttons to worry about, and have a almost endless supply of people to play against.
The PC/Cosnole war is over. PC has been absorbed. It will always be included. It is cheaper to develop the game on the PC... and use an engine that can publush the exact same work to a console. For almost all upcoming titles eveywhere (witcher 3 I would say is one of the first where this holds true) the game is developed 100% on PC hardware... with no real port issues to worry about as the engine is platform agnostic. Yes your right early in development they have to make the choice to NOT add crazy numbers of treys and assign every key an action. However this has been happening in PC games anyway.
One of countless articles about it. Truth is, as CDPR just showed with Witcher 3, PC Only is a thing of the past when it comes down to budgets vs what a developer wants to do with such a massive game.
GTA V, Witcher 3, Bloodborne, et al...defined as "decent" and "good" games.
Okay then, great! So uh, what makes them "decent" and "good" games?
What about them actually makes them "decent" and "good" games for you? Cryptic can't read your mind there. Your opinions are your opinions - you may be intimately familiar with them - but until you share some details about that...it doesn't mean squat to anybody but you. So...share some details, eh? What is it you like about them? What is it you don't like about STO? What could Cryptic do to make the game something you'd like more and you'd not like less?
See...that would be...not being vague. Continuously saying they're "decent" and "good" - when you're the only one that knows what you mean by that...that would be...being vague.
Some examples of not being vague...
Here, they're able to say what they like and don't like about the PC version:
This is what I mean about the weakest link comment not being the truth any longer though.
Again...for me...don't care about anybody else on the planet...for me...my opinion...what I like and do not like...everybody else is perfectly free to like what they like and not like what they do not like...it is a weak link.
I don't like ARPGs...I don't want to play a 3D platformer with a story while developing somebody's character's story than my own. I don't care how beautiful it looks...I started with text adventure games. It's like folks talking about 4D TVs...my first TV was an old 13" black & white mono TV.
Stuff that matters to some folks...just doesn't matter to me. Different opinions...simple.
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And that's why folks need to offer a little more than vague terms or assume that somebody knows what they're thinking.
Different opinions...two folks can look at the same thing and see something completely different.
Hell, it was a trip in grabbing those reviews earlier... the Australian PlayStation magazine gave the PS4 version 100 while the UK version gave it 80.
And most of this thread wouldn't have happened...if that had been done in the first place. That simple. bluegeek asked for some more info...sharx said bluegeek was wrong. I flipped out...cause how the Hell is not being vague wrong? WTF is that? I mean...seriously?
Tom: Did you like the cake?
Jerry: I wish the cake were decent.
Tom: Hrmm, what would make it decent?
Jerry: I shouldn't have to tell you.
bluegeek asked for some more info...sharx said bluegeek was wrong. I flipped out...cause how the Hell is not being vague wrong? WTF is that? I mean...seriously?
Shark may not have worded it perfectly and I don't mean to speak for him... but this is what I took away from what he said.
He said....
Video games are ART.
Developers are Artists.
Developers create ART which if it is good, people have fun playing. (because that should be the artists intention in the case of game design)
There for asking for feedback is stupid.
If a developer is incapable of creating a game that is fun to play... and don't understand what that is. Then they are not artists.
I mean its one thing to ask for real general feedback.... but to ask for specific feedback about game design from game players is stupidity. In that regard I sort of agree with him. (if that gets to the point of what he was saying)
Saying I want something fun... I want there to be PvP... and I want it to be balanced so I always feel like My opponents and Myself have an equal chance to prevail if we out play each other. That is the best feedback you can give.
That is it... the only feedback that should matter... anything more specific shouldn't matter... because as game creating artists they should have the vision and the know how to make that happen .
I think Shark was saying the best games out there... are good out of the gate... because they are art pieces. You are right some people will love it some will hate it and most will not agree on every little detail. (just like a good painting or piece of music ect) However when the artists starts paying to much attention to what the viewer or player in this case is saying... there not artists anymore, and there work turns to s**t.
Shark may not have worded it perfectly and I don't mean to speak for him... but this is what I took away from what he said.
He said....
Video games are ART.
Developers are Artists.
Developers create ART which if it is good art people have fun playing.
There for asking for feedback is stupid.
If a developer is incapable of creating a game that is fun to play... and don't understand what that is. Then they are not artists.
I mean its one thing to ask for real general feedback.... but to ask for specific feedback about game design from game players is stupidity. In that regard I sort of agree with him. (if that gets to the point of what he was saying)
Saying I want something fun... I want there to be PvP... and I want it to be balanced so I always feel like My opponents and Myself have an equal chance to prevail if we out play each other.
That is it... the only feedback that should matter... anything more specific shouldn't matter... because as game creating artists they should have the vision and the know how to make that happen .
I think Shark was saying the best games out there... are good out of the gate... because they are art pieces. You are right some people will love it some will hate it and most will not agree on every little detail. (just like a good painting or piece of music ect) However when the artists starts paying to much attention to what the viewer or player in this case is saying... there not artists anymore, and there work turns to s**t.
I've lost track of whether it was this thread or the other thread. The concept of templates came up. To me, templates would harken back to the older FPS days. Sure, certain weapons gave an advantage, but they were either a case of knowing the map or they were random spawns - so it wasn't any sort of permanent advantage, etc, etc, etc...
...and somebody just hated that idea. They wanted all their customization and so forth - well, that gets into there being 9001 doohickeys vs. 9001 counters, where there might be a counter for everything - but one can't possibly carry all the potential counters so there will always be advantages.
Different folks want different stuff...even with PvP. And with that, not everybody can obviously get what they want.
I've got to say, I'm really getting stuck on the "art" part. The whole artist and not artist. A lot of art out there...was commissioned. It was product. Somebody wanted something...somebody in turn created something based on that want. Sure, there are all sorts of things where folks just created...no doubt. Games are product though. It's a business. Is commissioned art not art? Are artists that create product...no longer artists?
Which gets into a game like Witcher 3...and calling it art. It's a commissioned product. There was all sorts of feedback involved in its creation. It wasn't created in a vacuum. There was a target audience...and...the game was created for them. Done right, and those folks might fall over themselves about how awesome it is...and possibly even consider it art. Others...not so much.
Which gets back to STO...it's a commissioned product with a target audience. Folks that aren't part of that target audience...aren't going to enjoy it as much as that group. Which is where in wanting Cryptic to apply development resources elsewhere...well, it's going to be a case of needing that feedback (just like any other game) as well as funding it in some way.
Somebody brought up that it's already being funded...as folks buy stuff, upgrade stuff, etc, etc, etc...so development should already be taking place. But then there are the folks that don't think that should happen - don't want that to happen that way. They want it to be funded in another way or not at all.
Which gets into how the mods would probably prefer if folks could provide that constructive feedback without attacking one another for the feedback somebody else offered, yeah?
But somebody thinking a company just magically produced the game they were looking for...well, that's just a wee bit naive. They're part of a demographic...they were targeted for that game...something they might see as art...and they're going to open their wallet it for it.
Cryptic tossing a dart across the room at a handful of ideas...isn't likely to get somebody what they want. They need to let Cryptic know.
I've got to say, I'm really getting stuck on the "art" part. The whole artist and not artist. A lot of art out there...was commissioned. It was product. Somebody wanted something...somebody in turn created something based on that want. Sure, there are all sorts of things where folks just created...no doubt. Games are product though. It's a business. Is commissioned art not art? Are artists that create product...no longer artists?
Which gets into a game like Witcher 3...and calling it art. It's a commissioned product. There was all sorts of feedback involved in its creation. It wasn't created in a vacuum. There was a target audience...and...the game was created for them. Done right, and those folks might fall over themselves about how awesome it is...and possibly even consider it art. Others...not so much.
Which gets back to STO...it's a commissioned product with a target audience. Folks that aren't part of that target audience...aren't going to enjoy it as much as that group. Which is where in wanting Cryptic to apply development resources elsewhere...well, it's going to be a case of needing that feedback (just like any other game) as well as funding it in some way.
I understand what you are saying virus and don't completely disagree with you. I think the way to look at the entire art thing is like this.
Yes there is a such thing as commissioned art... and you could say that any game that is being created to be sold is. However there is a difference between the Mona Lisa... and a Random Scenery painting in a dentists office. They are both commissioned, one is art one is schlock.
There is a reason most game developers listen very little to players. In many cases you can say its because clearly they have an artistic plan for their product... and they may listen, however they will ignore 90% of the feedback because they have a vision and are going to follow it. The issue is at this point... some developers seem to have very artistic visions (imo the height of art in game design is all about fun... which is why many of the industries early games like the Atari and Nintendo classics are some of the highest praised and most loved versions. They where often one or sometimes a small teams artistic game vision). Cryptic for a long time hasn't had anyone at the head that has a vision that doesn't end in $.
I guess I am saying ... YES commissioned art is valid, and if the artist is true to themselves they don't accept commissions that don't fit, and the best artists often didn't give the money people what they wanted. (I mean Pope Julius II didn't get what he asked for from Michelangelo).
To use a more modern example... think about any Big Musical Act you may like. There first records are often pure art in most cases written for them more then anyone else... this is often the best example of their works. The second record almost always sucks because they fall into the trap of trying to give the people what they want. There is a difference between giving the people what they want / pleasing your commission... and completely selling out.
Right now, playing STO... is like watching Ray Charles shill for Coke or Bowie trying to sell us Pepsi. Its like sitting in the front row at a concert with your favorite Metal band, and listening to them belt out power ballads. If it was still the mid 80s it would be like throwing that new Genesis album on and hearing the rubbish they where mass producing then.
I guess I am saying Cryptic has done a really terrible job of finding the line to walk... where as other Developers have. Heck even Bioware who we KNOW is being pressured by EA to start printing cash have managed to stay away from selling power creep. Cryptics leaders need to find there almonds, realize good game design is art... and stand up for the product now and then. There is clearly no vision or plan derived from one to create something that stands as a great video game. It is possible to do both... keep your integrity as an artist AND make money. At this point it is also clear that it isn't a case of the sophomore music album where the artist simply makes the mistake of listening to to many people and looses what makes them special, it is positively a case of a company with people in the drivers seats that are in the business of creating art on the level of the junk hanging in your dentists office that was bought in a special 4/pk of wall coverings.
PS... as for your last line that implies its up to us to narrow things for them so there not throwing darts in the dark. This is the thing. THEY KNOW what makes the game good and what doesn't. They can't not know, its simply not possible for them to have no idea. They don't need our feedback... they need to HIRE someone if the current people can not handle the job. That will Helm the ship, ASK questions of a few key people, and develop there own vision of the game and then run with it. The best games I have ever played where NOT what I expected at all. They where something new and cool. That is the same for any ART... music or painting ect... show me what I expect and I may eat it up for a little while, you may sell me. Create something new and fantastic... and 500 years later people will know you fought with a pope to create it. lol
I mean really... who would have known first person shooters where fun until ID gave use Wolf. Simtex gave us Master of Orion, and instantly I knew 4x games where fun. I mean I'm not expecting STO to get turned around into that type of game changer (lol bad pub) Still... my point is you can't give an artist feedback on something so cool it hasn't been thought of yet. Cryptic needs to try and get in that mind set... listen but toss what doesn't fit the vision... and if they don't have a vision. Wake up call,,, that would be why the game sucks.
We've never plowed fields or milked chattel. We've lived as PvPers, warriors.
The grind maimed us. We have no enemies to fight, no glory to be won.
ISA? That is not an engagement worthy of Sto'Vo'Kor.
Some familiar names in this thread. Ave, morituri te salutant.
Pandas trying a comeback. That's good. A gleam of hope at least.
Wait, which thread is this? Oh, that's right...the Where's Bort thread. Man, getting confused between the two since some of it's back and forth.
What would your thoughts on Cryptic potentially introducing the following change (they haven't said anything about it that I'm aware of in the least)....?
On PvP Maps...offer full Specialization.
Basically, while on a PvP Map - one need not feel held back by this particular element. While on PvE Maps and elsewhere, one would have to go with the flow as usual.
Not even sure it's possible in the least, but it did seem that most folks disappeared with the announcement of the Command Specialization and the thought of having to do that on multiple characters.
Upgrading? Folks had muddled through that and stuck around, yeah? Command...it registering just what might be going on with those things...and poof - folks disappeared.
Just a random thought that came to mind in seeing you post there! It was a trap!
...but it got me wondering, what if it were something where with each Specialization released - there was a token one could purchase for a minimal amount to unlock the Specialization on PvP maps as such.
Basically, the Specialization stuff is an issue - yeah? Offering a potential solution at low cost which could help fun the work that went into it - yeah?
Don't know...just a case of trying to have ideas instead of uninstalling the game.
...but it got me wondering, what if it were something where with each Specialization released - there was a token one could purchase for a minimal amount to unlock the Specialization on PvP maps as such.
Basically, the Specialization stuff is an issue - yeah? Offering a potential solution at low cost which could help fun the work that went into it - yeah?
Don't know...just a case of trying to have ideas instead of uninstalling the game.
Yes its part of the problem. I don't think (and its my opinion) that is anywhere close to the biggest issue retarding fun in PvP.
I think this is the point Shark was getting at though... it doesn't really matter what you or Hank or I think. Our thoughts on the matter shouldn't matter at all.
A good game company would look at there PvP game... examine it themselves... and come up with a plan to create something they consider acceptable.
I think most of us are beyond the point of thinking some token (because it is easy to implement) would be enough. Cause I doubt it would be. Lets say next patch they change Spec points completely for everyone... and make a couple of PvE ques or PvP games be enough XP to earn a point. Boom everyone of us could have completed specs on any toon in a few days.
If that happened would PVP be saved ?
I tend to doubt it... the current game isn't just broken because there haves and have nots. Let everyone be a have and the game is still flawed in major UNFUN ways.
So its my opinion... that NONE of ours matter. All we can do is voice the truth, that we are unhappy with the game in regards to PvP. If the developer decides that changing that is important. They know what they have to do already. We don't need to tell them.
I think most of us are of the thinking that if they are the type of developer... that has no vision. Or if they have one a developer lacking the integrity as artists to see it realized. (even if it means fighting with the bosses) .... well then perhaps they are not the caliber of developer I want to invest my time in as a consumer. I think what keeps getting tossed around is that there are in fact good examples out there of Games where the developers have done a much better job of walking the line between Art and Pay days.
I don't know there are to many issues to list as I see it... we could list whats wrong with the game for 10,000 posts. What needs to happen is the developers, need to sit down and DECIDE for themselves what parts of the game are good... and decide to expand on them, and decide which parts can be removed. We have given them examples of what we would pay for... other games should act as inspiration in that regard as well. THEY can fix PVP. They are capable. The only question is do they have the artistic vision and integrity to see it though.
I understand what you are saying virus and don't completely disagree with you. I think the way to look at the entire art thing is like this.
Yes there is a such thing as commissioned art... and you could say that any game that is being created to be sold is. However there is a difference between the Mona Lisa... and a Random Scenery painting in a dentists office. They are both commissioned, one is art one is schlock.
Why is the Mona Lisa art? Cause folks have called it art for how long now? Why is the peaceful valley print in the dentist's office schlock? Cause folks have called that type of thing schlock for how long now?
It's like getting into the discussion of literature...and well...gets into certain types calling certain things one thing and certain things something else. Which I bring up, cause I think these two lists side by side speak well to that: http://www.modernlibrary.com/top-100/100-best-novels/
There is a reason most game developers listen very little to players. In many cases you can say its because clearly they have an artistic plan for their product... and they may listen, however they will ignore 90% of the feedback because they have a vision and are going to follow it. The issue is at this point... some developers seem to have very artistic visions (imo the height of art in game design is all about fun... which is why many of the industries early games like the Atari and Nintendo classics are some of the highest praised and most loved versions. They where often one or sometimes a small teams artistic game vision). Cryptic for a long time hasn't had anyone at the head that has a vision that doesn't end in $.
But yeah, he wanted to do his thing - his vision - fought the good fight. And...quit Atari. He cofounded The Learning Company, but left that as well, eh?
But yeah, he had to quit...basically. If he hadn't, he'd probably have been fired, right?
Try that these days...it's not much different. Quit or be fired.
And well, it's not the one man show these days...so it's not just one person's vision/desire/goal. They're likely going to be working under somebody, under somebody, where folks are all answering to investors, etc, etc, etc.
Go off and start their own thing? It's still going to be a business. Hell, The Learning Company was started there with a grant, eh?
I guess I am saying ... YES commissioned art is valid, and if the artist is true to themselves they don't accept commissions that don't fit, and the best artists often didn't give the money people what they wanted. (I mean Pope Julius II didn't get what he asked for from Michelangelo).
It's a business world though...and folks have families to feed. The starving artist thing doesn't quite work...not when it comes to something like game development. It's not just hitting up the art supply store, self-publishing ebooks, picking up a guitar from a pawn shop...etc, etc, etc.
Sure, there are all sorts of things for indies to do stuff - and - there are games out there which are a dime for several dozen with that.
"I had a vision. I made the game. Do you want fries with that? Beverage, ma'am?"
To use a more modern example... think about any Big Musical Act you may like. There first records are often pure art in most cases written for them more then anyone else... this is often the best example of their works. The second record almost always sucks because they fall into the trap of trying to give the people what they want. There is a difference between giving the people what they want / pleasing your commission... and completely selling out.
Right now, playing STO... is like watching Ray Charles shill for Coke or Bowie trying to sell us Pepsi. Its like sitting in the front row at a concert with your favorite Metal band, and listening to them belt out power ballads. If it was still the mid 80s it would be like throwing that new Genesis album on and hearing the rubbish they where mass producing then.
I'm a fan of power ballads.
The mid 80s Genesis stuff...er...was some of their best selling stuff. Peopled liked it and bought it.
I guess I am saying Cryptic has done a really terrible job of finding the line to walk... where as other Developers have. Heck even Bioware who we KNOW is being pressured by EA to start printing cash have managed to stay away from selling power creep. Cryptics leaders need to find there almonds, realize good game design is art... and stand up for the product now and then. There is clearly no vision or plan derived from one to create something that stands as a great video game. It is possible to do both... keep your integrity as an artist AND make money. At this point it is also clear that it isn't a case of the sophomore music album where the artist simply makes the mistake of listening to to many people and looses what makes them special, it is positively a case of a company with people in the drivers seats that are in the business of creating art on the level of the junk hanging in your dentists office that was bought in a special 4/pk of wall coverings.
Would be an article that comes to mind comparing various F2P models.
I'd have to hunt to find somebody saying they've got a good F2P model.
Meh, imho, it was a case of not doing an actual level cap increase. They increased the gap. Folks wanted to keep their ships, so they fudged a way to do that. Had this been another game, all of that would have been lost...and...the gap would have been smaller.
Picture WoW, eh? Folks that bought the expansion vs. the folks that didn't. Basically have that going on. What about players at the same level, eh? Could be vastly different levels of gearing based on the time put in, right? Cryptic lets folks shortcut that time...but the underlying gap is still there.
Somebody can earn Dil from just playing the game, convert that to Zen or use it to upgrade stuff. Just like folks playing in other games in the past could play the game and get better stuff. Cryptic isn't necessarily offering anything different than other games in that regard to power creep. What they are offering folks is a "Finish Now"...buy some Zen instead...use it or convert it to Dil for other things.
And well, given the complaints left, right, and center about how long things take (even when they're a Hell of lot faster than other games in the past)...yeah, Cryptic is more than happy to sell that to them and the folks are more than happy to buy it.
If 60 had been 60 instead of faux 60 like it is...might have been a different story. But it carried over the gap that existed (naturally) at 50 and introduced the gap that will exist at 60 (naturally)...creating a massive gap.
Them selling "Finish Now"...doesn't change the underlying power creep that takes place in almost every game. It's a MMO...it's not a FPS/TPS.
PS... as for your last line that implies its up to us to narrow things for them so there not throwing darts in the dark. This is the thing. THEY KNOW what makes the game good and what doesn't. They can't not know, its simply not possible for them to have no idea. They don't need our feedback... they need to HIRE someone if the current people can not handle the job. That will Helm the ship, ASK questions of a few key people, and develop there own vision of the game and then run with it. The best games I have ever played where NOT what I expected at all. They where something new and cool. That is the same for any ART... music or painting ect... show me what I expect and I may eat it up for a little while, you may sell me. Create something new and fantastic... and 500 years later people will know you fought with a pope to create it. lol
It's a game. I just don't buy into the art thing. It's a game. It's a product. It's meant to be entertainment. We enjoy it while we enjoy it, and we move on when we no longer do. The company tries to keep us for longer...based on...feedback.
I mean really... who would have known first person shooters where fun until ID gave use Wolf. Simtex gave us Master of Orion, and instantly I knew 4x games where fun. I mean I'm not expecting STO to get turned around into that type of game changer (lol bad pub) Still... my point is you can't give an artist feedback on something so cool it hasn't been thought of yet. Cryptic needs to try and get in that mind set... listen but toss what doesn't fit the vision... and if they don't have a vision. Wake up call,,, that would be why the game sucks.
People were already playing first person games over a decade before Wolfenstein. It was a natural progression of fun folks were already having. How much of its popularity at the time could be tied to the previous games (almost a decade there too, no?), the release as shareware (how many magazines was that game sitting there for folks, eh?), had folks moving from 386 more into 486, etc, etc, etc...
The desire was already there, there was an IP, the technology began to open up, they did great marketing, and they got to the market early. Art? No...great business.
And well, MOO kind of falls into the same thing...though it wasn't first, it was first called. Folks were already playing 4X games without them being called that. It didn't create it...it was just a relatively well done version of the game. And how much help did it get from Emrich, eh?
STO...continuing the story? So we basically had a DS9 game set later. Hrmm, yeah, DS9...huh...okay, okay...we'll move into VOY after that...huh...okay, okay. While launching it hoping to get in on 2009's Star Trek? Yeah...STO was doomed from the start. Both TOS and TNG sport a better overall rating in general, with TNG edging out TOS overall...though it gets into episodes and so forth, yeah? So launching with that DS9 feel? Hrmmm...yeah...no. Then moving into VOY...yeah...no. After having the reboot thing?
And oh...so the plan's to finish off the Iconian thing and then maybe get into more DS9'ish stuff? Lol...what?
Can I get a FCT T5 Connie woot woot? Can I get multiple Galaxy threadnaughts? How about some remember when we were explorers action? What about a more like Star Trek thread or 9001?
Imagine if they'd had a game set toward the end of TOS and start of TNG. Imagine what they could have offered folks for PvE. Imagine what they could have offered folks for PvP. Yeah, five years in...maybe we could have started hitting up DS9...later on hitting up VOY.
But yeah, I just don't get the art thing with much of the stuff you mentioned. I see business. I see timing. I see marketing.
So much of the stuff that's ended up labeled art while other stuff hasn't...basically comes down to some snooty/snobby person labeling it as such and the rest the sheep wanting to agree. Meh...art doesn't seek such - art is because art is.
I don't think Cryptic needs to go...artsy. I just think they've got a Hell of a lot of things to address from a business sense...unless they're happy with the very small market they've got, which is barely tapping the IP's fanbase.
Yes its part of the problem. I don't think (and its my opinion) that is anywhere close to the biggest issue retarding fun in PvP.
I think this is the point Shark was getting at though... it doesn't really matter what you or Hank or I think. Our thoughts on the matter shouldn't matter at all.
A good game company would look at there PvP game... examine it themselves... and come up with a plan to create something they consider acceptable.
I think most of us are beyond the point of thinking some token (because it is easy to implement) would be enough. Cause I doubt it would be. Lets say next patch they change Spec points completely for everyone... and make a couple of PvE ques or PvP games be enough XP to earn a point. Boom everyone of us could have completed specs on any toon in a few days.
If that happened would PVP be saved ?
I tend to doubt it... the current game isn't just broken because there haves and have nots. Let everyone be a have and the game is still flawed in major UNFUN ways.
So its my opinion... that NONE of ours matter. All we can do is voice the truth, that we are unhappy with the game in regards to PvP. If the developer decides that changing that is important. They know what they have to do already. We don't need to tell them.
I think most of us are of the thinking that if they are the type of developer... that has no vision. Or if they have one a developer lacking the integrity as artists to see it realized. (even if it means fighting with the bosses) .... well then perhaps they are not the caliber of developer I want to invest my time in as a consumer. I think what keeps getting tossed around is that there are in fact good examples out there of Games where the developers have done a much better job of walking the line between Art and Pay days.
I don't know there are to many issues to list as I see it... we could list whats wrong with the game for 10,000 posts. What needs to happen is the developers, need to sit down and DECIDE for themselves what parts of the game are good... and decide to expand on them, and decide which parts can be removed. We have given them examples of what we would pay for... other games should act as inspiration in that regard as well. THEY can fix PVP. They are capable. The only question is do they have the artistic vision and integrity to see it though.
Personally, I don't think it's a lack of vision. I just think it's a different vision. A vision that's not shared by folks that are complaining...but a vision that's shared by those that don't. It's that simple. Them having a different goal...doesn't mean they don't have one. And I think a bunch of folks are having trouble accepting that. It's not necessarily the game is garbage...it's just it's not the game for certain folks.
It wasn't the game for me back when it released. I bailed on the beta. When they kept having me come back for those weeks of play...at first I didn't get through the week and then I didn't even bother downloading it again.
I changed, somewhat...when I came to STO...I was no longer the pseudo hardcore PvPer. Sure, PvP was my focus - but there was no doubt that the PvP in STO was casual. Hell, my move toward casual PvP had bounced back and forth between Battlegrounds in WoW and Nullsec raids in EVE from where it had been with setting the alarm in the middle of the night because of a bane going live in Shadowbane...or any of the stuff that had taken place earlier.
This game offered the natural progression from pseudo hardcore PvPer into dorking around casual PvP.
It wasn't the game for me...it became the game for me...cause I changed.
And well, now...heh...it's again moving from the game for me to something...it would be pretty easy to walk away from. It really hasn't changed that much since coming back to it with the F2P conversion. But me? I've changed again.
I'd rather have some fun over in TSW...I dig the way they've got their missions set up. PvP? Lol, back when TSW came out...the PvP was so bad and they upped the system requirements, so I couldn't play it at the time. So it was a pass. Yeah, part of that forum vacation and being in the TSW beta...that's where I was...
System requirements are met. Don't care about the PvP in the game. And yup, it's looking pretty good for what I want compared to where I am.
Would be awesome to still hit up some casual PvP and dork around here...but meh...long term...just don't see it with the game as a whole. Had a blast getting obliterated by SOB in Ker'rat the other day...most fun I'd had in months. And in realizing that...it was just kind of damn sad that I was still playing.
It's probably best that I just bail out on the what can be done conversations...not sure there's any saving the game for me.
Why is the Mona Lisa art? Cause folks have called it art for how long now? Why is the peaceful valley print in the dentist's office schlock? Cause folks have called that type of thing schlock for how long now?
Everyone is entitled to bad taste. I kid. Really though if you have seen some of the master works in person it is very clear why they are considered to be. Really though I have a friend who paints works for commercial sale... he honestly does 5-6 at a time... lines them up and a few hours later they all look the same. lol Is it art.... yes, is it going to be worth more when he dies and can't make more... um no. That isn't to say I don't respect that he can turn out art that does look pretty darn good at a good clip and make a few bucks.
When STO dies its not likely to get many fond remember STO coverage. We all know what the height of "art" is in the game world. Guess what those games do sell as well. Where its frustrating and you have to admit Virus STO COULD be right up there. It has a unique space/ground setup... and the space side is unique in the industry, properly tended PvP in this game could be some of the best most PvP in all of gaming. (however this developer lacks the vision, even though the majority of us can make that leap and see the potential) For what we have been saying its like they started painting a masterpiece and half way though ran out of money for paint, and then just started throwing junk at the canvas.
It's like getting into the discussion of literature...and well...gets into certain types calling certain things one thing and certain things something else.
Your right though Virus art is always in the eye of the beholder. The sell outs almost always stand out though.
But yeah, he wanted to do his thing - his vision - fought the good fight. And...quit Atari. He cofounded The Learning Company, but left that as well, eh?
But yeah, he had to quit...basically. If he hadn't, he'd probably have been fired, right?
Try that these days...it's not much different. Quit or be fired.
Yet so many other developers manage to do just what we are talking about. The guys that created Witcher are not unhappy and feel they have achieved a great balance between making things commercial (console) and artistic (the massive world). Cryptic hasn't made one addition to this game in years that hasn't had a sales target. You know that's true. I'm not suggesting they should ignore there bosses and do what they want no matter what... but come on fight for the game at least a little.
The mid 80s Genesis stuff...er...was some of their best selling stuff. Peopled liked it and bought it.
The point wasn't the specific examples... its the concept. In every genera of entertainment... performers decide to sell out. They put what the art they believe in on the shelf and listen to some group of fans/producers/managers whatever the case is and produce something solely to make $. Yes some talented people make something that is still not bad... but make no mistake what it is. I mean I admit to getting Kisses stupid disco song stuck in my head now and then... but even they admitted that was about nothing but $. lol
I admit there F2P model sucks. 100% its terrible they shouldn't have bothered and just left it a sub game cause it really is. I am talking about the PVP aspect because that to me is what is important. I don't care if I spend 20 bucks a month on a sub... or drop 20 bucks on micro transactions. What I care about is that money I spend makes no difference to the PvP game. In the case of TOR guess what... if you spend 2000 grand on that game you WILL not have any advantage over me in PvP. If you beat me I will just have to suck it up cause you out played me... Bio doesn't sell power. They sell fancy Stormtrooper helmets, pink light saber crystals... and kick TRIBBLE Leather chaps. They don't sell things like traits/gold weapons ect ect. Nothing you can buy will give you an advantage, you'll just look a little more bada*s.
So if EA can figure out how to provide a pretty well balanced PvP game and not feel the need to $ in ..... I don't think it shines a good light on Cryptic. Cause I think everyone feels there Ah*oles.
Somebody can earn Dil from just playing the game, convert that to Zen or use it to upgrade stuff. Just like folks playing in other games in the past could play the game and get better stuff. Cryptic isn't necessarily offering anything different than other games in that regard to power creep. What they are offering folks is a "Finish Now"...buy some Zen instead...use it or convert it to Dil for other things.
Them selling "Finish Now"...doesn't change the underlying power creep that takes place in almost every game. It's a MMO...it's not a FPS/TPS.
Virus how many other MMOs have you played ? yes they are 100% selling power that is all they do... if you have to spend 20 hours playing a game to get something someone else bought for 20 bucks that is selling power. I don't care if there is a free way to get it. That isn't the point. Its also one of the reasons pvp is dead in this game. Yes you can get everything for "free" but it won't be a few hours of investment my friend. It will be weeks and more like months for most people with out 6 hours a day to play STO. All the can't "catch up to the vets" stuff should be only ever about skill... not gear. (BTW TOR PvP uses an autobalance... yes show up in free gear and your = to anyone else crazy right)
Really though.... every other MMO on the planet sells cosmetics Virus. GW sells cosmetics. Tor sells cosmetics. Rift sells cosmetics. LOTRO sells cosmetics. All of these games also have PvP tech that balances out gear to make it a non factor.
In terms of PvP Cryptic is YEARS behind the competition.
The issue isn't a finish now button, I think you know that. Imagine you where a new players virus with out the stable of alts... where would you get all the Dilihitum from to just do rep projects and pay the basic upgrade prices ? Well you would have to farm and treat the game like a job for a few months to catch up OR.... spend $. That is the issue. New players will never take up STO to do high end PvP as it exists now and call it reasonable to do it with out dropping $... or just being laughably under geared and have little chance of every being useful in PVP for MONTHS.
It's a game. I just don't buy into the art thing. It's a game. It's a product. It's meant to be entertainment. We enjoy it while we enjoy it, and we move on when we no longer do. The company tries to keep us for longer...based on...feedback.
I think you would make a great Cryptic employee. Walt Disney would have canned you before you even got a mascot head on.
It is ART... Virus or it should be. Its a trek game they should be telling Trek style stories (they need to hire some actual real wrights btw). Good art should be easy on the senses, provoke an emotional response (yes fun is emotional) and make you think. That SHOULD describe any trek game worth playing. Which makes it art. Artists can get rich Virus I am not saying they should stop selling the game. I'm saying they should strike a better balance that would MAKE people want to give them there money. I want to play a game that makes me so happy I buy stupid things even if its PINK saber Crystals for me Female Jedi cause I appreciate the game.
People were already playing first person games over a decade before Wolfenstein. It was a natural progression of fun folks were already having. How much of its popularity at the time could be tied to the previous games (almost a decade there too, no?), the release as shareware (how many magazines was that game sitting there for folks, eh?), had folks moving from 386 more into 486, etc, etc, etc...
And well, MOO kind of falls into the same thing...though it wasn't first, it was first called. Folks were already playing 4X games without them being called that. It didn't create it...it was just a relatively well done version of the game. And how much help did it get from Emrich, eh?
I used those examples not because they where the first but because they where the first COMMERCIAL hits in those areas. Its like Saying Elvis invented rock and roll... of course not, he sold it to the masses in a way that was still artistic, and new for those people. I could have also pointed out Sid Myers and Civ.
Being first isn't the point... perfecting it on an art level is the idea. Wolf/Civ/Moo those games did it better then everyone else... and on a level where people take notice... and they spawn a ton of knock offs, when that happens you know what you got. (seeing as Cryptic in the beginning was seen by most as a quick and dirty MMO clone company I think I'm hoping for a bit much)
So much of the stuff that's ended up labeled art while other stuff hasn't...basically comes down to some snooty/snobby person labeling it as such and the rest the sheep wanting to agree. Meh...art doesn't seek such - art is because art is.
Its all ART Virus... the TRIBBLE noise my kids get up to in the garage. Is art. The mass produced art my friend creates for docs and lawyers... its art as well.
Art isn't always good... and of course it can't always be fantastic.
If you want to know how good a piece of art is all you have to do is pay attention to how it ages. Yes good art doesn't always sell and make the artists stupid rich... but some times it does. Stuff that becomes huge almost always is high art like it or not. This includes games yes they are art.
100 years from now people are still going to know what pac man is... wrap your head around that. Anyway think where way off topic. I believe games are art... you don't so where not going to agree on How Cryptic should treat development of there art/product for you.
I don't think Cryptic needs to go...artsy. I just think they've got a Hell of a lot of things to address from a business sense...unless they're happy with the very small market they've got, which is barely tapping the IP's fanbase.
There it is we won't ever agree. I think the only way they ever save this game in terms of PvP is to stop worrying about the $ and come at it from an artistic view... and just do what they KNOW nees to be done to fix it in a way that makes for a good game. Which bringing things back here... is why I say our feedback means squat. They know exactly what needs to happen to make PvP in this game fun. IMO I doubt they have the integrity to take those steps and convert PVP into a great game mode. Instead I think they will perhaps tack this on or that, do this junk fix or that... and try and pass it off as fixed. Even they will know that is terrible.
Lets all get realistic as well... some of us have HEARD ex Cryptic employees tell us themselves the company isn't willing to do what is required to fix pvp. So all we can do is hope someone in charge there grows a pair and stands up and says... we need to throw X amount of resources at this and fix it proper and see what happens after.
Personally, I don't think it's a lack of vision. I just think it's a different vision.
I agree with you completely. They have a vision... sadly. Its how to ring the most amount of $ out of the IP. As a sales man I know there is only 2 ways for me to increase margin on an existing product... sell it for more, or kill my costs.
Virus how many other MMOs have you played ? yes they are 100% selling power that is all they do... if you have to spend 20 hours playing a game to get something someone else bought for 20 bucks that is selling power. I don't care if there is a free way to get it. That isn't the point. Its also one of the reasons pvp is dead in this game. Yes you can get everything for "free" but it won't be a few hours of investment my friend. It will be weeks and more like months for most people with out 6 hours a day to play STO. All the can't "catch up to the vets" stuff should be only ever about skill... not gear.
But that's along the lines of what I was saying that it's not a case of buying power - it's buying time.
Consider a sub game, where somebody's played for three months and paid in $15. During those three months, they scored themselves some gear.
Now imagine if somebody could drop out $45 for that same gear.
They've paid the same as the other person. They've got the same level of power (as far as gear) as the person.
The difference...the time. They paid for "Finish Now"...their buying power was the same price as the other person paid too - and - for the same level of power.
Consider a game with a $50 expansion, where after a period of time the player has reached a new level of power made available by having bought the expansion.
Now imagine if somebody could drop out $50 for that same level of power.
Again, the difference...the time.
And it was a common complaint for so many years from so many players in so many games.
"I don't live in mom's basement and have all the free time in the world to do this - I've got the money, my time is valuable to me, just let me buy the stuff and be done with it."
And voila...guess what games did? Folks that wouldn't pay a $15 month a sub over a period of time to get something, were perfectly fine dropping out $45 to get it now.
Did they get more? No...the difference...the time.
But even before companies started selling the now...every MMO I've played going back to UO has had the character progression where the "catching up" wasn't just about skill - it was about character progression/gear progression as well as skill.
Somebody mentions the only difference should be skill...and...I'm thinking old FPS/TPS games (the older games that don't have character progression/gear progression/tech trees/etc). Like I said, might be a case of knowledge of the map and where weapons are...but that's it. Everything was pretty much skill based...what the player brought to the game, not how their character progressed in the game - they didn't have any character in the game to progress.
MMORPGs though? Nope...always involved character progression in some form as well.
Which gets back in to that "Finish Now"...it equalizes time. Folks don't have to spend months to get stuff...they've got it now. Voila, it becomes about skill at that point. There's not the time spent to catch up for gear...cause the gear's there.
So instead of it being a game where folks pay their sub, have to play X amount of time to get there...they just pay to have it now.
* * * * *
I'm not saying I'm a fan of that. I'm just saying I can see it there for what it is. I've seen the folks over so many years asking for something like that. Heh, not "years" here...I'm talking over a decade of folks wanting to "Finish Now".
Course, one of the things that bugs the Hell out of me about it in this game...is more of a PvE thing...folks get the gear and have no clue how to use it. /facepalm
* * * * *
So outside of making PvP into some sort of standalone/pseudo standalone TPS game...there is going to be more than just skill that creates a gap.
(BTW TOR PvP uses an autobalance... yes show up in free gear and your = to anyone else crazy right)
...and how many times over the years (years here) have folks suggested something like that for STO to fight off the power creep and the gaps? And it's met some of the most vicious resistance I've seen. Hell, it's along the lines of various tourneys and channels where folks have tried to set rules, yeah? What happens? Folks want to use whatever they've got...they don't want to give that up. They like every little edge they can get.
Not all the players want the same thing.
Cause face it, if it was a case that all the players did...what problem would there be with power creep? Folks could just not use any of it...problem solved. But that's not what happened. Constant arms race for how many years now...eh?
We could all be flying around in T5 9 console boats, using basic weapons, no Lock Box/Lobi/Rep/etc, don't spend any Spec Points, no Starship Traits...folks could do Vanilla if they wanted to do it. How well did that work out?
Cryptic's not out there as some monster set about ruining things...they're giving some folks want they want, but not some folks want they want.
And that's pretty much that...it's not the game for some folks while it is the game for others.
Hell, even the thing I said about trying to split that...where the public queues are one way and the private queues are unlimited (whatever folks agree upon themselves)...there are folks that don't want that change for the public queues.
You have proven why PvP will never be fixed as long as Cryptic doesn't focus on the game and not the $.
Yes I agree you can get everything for free in STO if you are willing to spend the time. The issue is the amount of time required before PvP is an option. Start a new account... with out 20 toons. How long will it take you to be on par to be able to have an acceptable PvP toon. If you choose instead to just spend $ how much will it cost you.
The answer to both will be more time and or more money then any sane person would spend to play this game.
That is an issue... not a small one its a game ending issue... and make no mistake for PvP the game has already ended.
As for the second part about people getting upset and fighting over systems that take away there toys. I agree with you... and this is where Cryptic needs to nut up. I don't mean just in regard to there bosses... I mean also to us.
They need to stop listening to EVERYONE there bosses... and the players. Sit down and come up with a plan to create a proper PvP game... and go to it. If they try to tie in 101 new ways to make money or have any one grind out D... they fail. The game remains dead.
I need to get to him. I can't just leave him out there alone. - Sometimes you've got to makes sacrifices, Lara. You can't save everyone. - I know about sacrifices. - No, you know about loss. Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you. - I can't choose to let him die, Roth.
I just see one problem with it: 20 Zen = about 5,000 Dil, based off of a 250D:Z conversion rate. They'd never go for that.
It's an interesting concept though - a desirable currency that encourages repeated play due to it's small payout.
so a complete newbie who gets stomped will end up deprived of dilithium or discouraged from doing PvP, or both.
I need to get to him. I can't just leave him out there alone. - Sometimes you've got to makes sacrifices, Lara. You can't save everyone. - I know about sacrifices. - No, you know about loss. Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you. - I can't choose to let him die, Roth.
so a complete newbie who gets stomped will end up deprived of dilithium or discouraged from doing PvP, or both.
OK, now that this thread is back on topic... lol
This problem exists regardless of rewards, unless there is a ranking system of some kind implemented to keep casuals and newbs out of matches with veteran PvPers, the topic of monetization is somewhat premature...
We should be trying to figure out a way to encourage players to play PvP before we try to pry open their wallets. lol
Comments
No it's not. It's not about how it looks. It's still going to be a game designed to be played with a game controller...there's no getting around that limitation since they need to design for that.
Fighting game? Sure.
Racing game? Sure.
Platform game? Sure.
RPG? Nope.
FPS? Nope.
RTS? Nope.
Weakest link, Virus? in what world do you live in? Witcher was always a PC game first, and technical benchmark on top of it.
second, calling likes of Witcher, a game which has 1 map that's 2x bigger then entire Skyrim, or that has 1 smaller quest longer then entire campaign of likes of past chart champions like COD, "crappy" on forums of generally unknown low-budget and low-tech MMO like STO is teh pinnacle of stupidity. No wonder they are able to sell ship packs for $150 to such audience.
Seeing that you needed to google Witcher should have told me that you have no clue about anything gaming, but my mind couldn't process it at first.
Super SpecialStar Trek Online Review
SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers
Back to the bit about STO vs. "decent" and "good" games...something other than the vague terms "decent" and "good" - would be the kind of thing that bluegeek was likely talking about in being constructive. Some meat instead of fluff...
Well that is also not really an issue anymore. Companies are coming up with interesting ways to control PC games with tradtional console gear.
Heck Cryptic themselves have already ported Neverwinter. Don't kid yourself virus STO could be ported as well. There simply isn't any money in STO for a more mainstream console port.
Lets also be realistic about it, if the console companies saw a lot of money in mouse/keyboard they would add that.
As for RPG and RTS...RTS could easily be done on a console using the Gyro sensors as mouse input. I remember using a very early version of this years ago to play RTS on a projector while standing, was silly but effective. The only reason you don't see more RTS Console games isn't because of inputs. (I agree the inputs where terrible 10 years ago) these days they could easily be done with almost no real change from PC layout.
As for MMOs... its only a matter of time before Consoles become the standard way people play MMOs as well. Yes having 3-4 trays of things to click doesn't lend itself to a controller. However people that play MMOs more and more aren't looking for that. Look at a Pure PC MMO like Guild wars2... that game could Easily be ported to a console. Neverwinters controls where ported... and I would bet every new MMO forever more will have controls that can be adapted. Things like mouse input can be tied to gyros.... and having 5-6 buttons is enough. (and lets be honest it would be easy to make a PS4/Xbox controler act like it had 16... 4 buttons, then Left upper trigger + 4 buttons ect Strip STO back to what it was 4 years ago and that would have been enough.)
PS... we all know it would be cool as heck to have a Gyro Version of a Razor Naga. Imagine a Razor naga for Ps4/xbox one. Something like a Nintendo Wii Controller.. with a left hand controller to move and trigger what would basicly be a Shift/control/space bar type keys... and a left hand that would be a gyro mouse with a 10 key mouse layout. lol
People with opinions that differ from your opinions? Quirky, eh?
Which has what to do with Witcher 3's need to be designed for consoles?
Awwwww, iz u getz butthurtz 'n cryz nao? Did the mean ol' Virus not like the game you like?
I didn't have to Google Witcher. I had to Google CDPR. Maybe that's what you had a problem processing?
It's going all over the place because you are practically uninformed about subject you are talking about.
First, Witcher is not made for controler, but rather it can be played with it. Just like STO can be played with a spacebar and WASD.
So let's not be vague.(again)
STO can make more money if it starts being a decent game.
And it really isn't even close to decent if you try anything else on the market.
It isn't even a good Trek game. especially since they started selling power creep traits for $50.
Super SpecialStar Trek Online Review
SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers
I snipped at that point, because obviously I'm not getting my point across.
I don't want to use a game controller to play certain games. The games being dumbed down to use a game controller...turns it into a game I don't want to play.
What you're talking about as a good thing...is a bad thing to me.
I won't play Neverwinter because of it. I won't play DCUO because of it. There are all sorts of games like that...which I won't play...because of that.
I love fighting games on consoles. The last three consoles I bought were for fighting games. Other games...just not my thing.
Dude, you trying to kill me by making me laugh so hard I have a stroke, aneurism, or something?
Maybe you should go Google vague.
go back to crunching numbers for Cryptic. because they obviously can't and won't.
Super SpecialStar Trek Online Review
SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers
OMFGLMFAO...that's a beauty coming from the TRIBBLE you've been babbling like it's anything but opinion...vague opinion at that.
I mean, seriously, I'm the one that called what I said an opinion. Why are you trying to suggest I called it a fact? You even quoted me calling what I said an opinion there.
Actually, baby talk was around before the internet. Derpity derp there.
Which has what to do with anything?
(oh noes, I'm getting pwned again - looking like the dumbass I was last time - here, let me throw Cryptic into the mix and tell Virus to go crunch numbers)
* * * * *
Dude, if you're going to try to PvP on the forums...try to arm yourself or something.
you do know that sto can be played with a xbox360 controller for pc right?
This is what I mean about the weakest link comment not being the truth any longer though.
If you played Witcher 1 and or 2 you know those games where always controller friendly. The first game was a PC game... the later console port was put on another engine. Witcher 2 was a console/pc game. Back then your argument of weakest link would hold more water. Witcher 3 brings the PC/console versions almost to parity. (although as shark is getting at, it will still punish a top end PC if you crank everything up to 11). The control side of it isn't an issue anymore for most developers, I think its at a point where good developers have learned from the mistakes made by all the bad ports of the past. Other then a crazy number of keys what can't be done with a controller anymore... Gyro mouse input works well, and controllers can easily handle more keys then needed for engaging gameplay.
All the current generation game engines out there are cross platform now. For the next 5-10 years your going to see 95% of games built on Frostbite 3/Unitiy 5/Mizuchuhi/Cry Engine 4/Unreal 4 Every single one of those is PC/Xbox One/PS4... which means almost everyone of those games is going to be sold on PC and Console. It also means almost every game will have control schemes what will work on both. Its just a fact of life. I don't see that as a bad thing myself. One of the biggest issues MMOs have always had was attracting large player bases, because frankly not many people can handle dancing accross 4-5 12 slot rows of skills and items to play a game. I enjoy those games myself... however I much more enjoy playing something like GW2 with its 8-10 buttons to worry about, and have a almost endless supply of people to play against.
The PC/Cosnole war is over. PC has been absorbed. It will always be included. It is cheaper to develop the game on the PC... and use an engine that can publush the exact same work to a console. For almost all upcoming titles eveywhere (witcher 3 I would say is one of the first where this holds true) the game is developed 100% on PC hardware... with no real port issues to worry about as the engine is platform agnostic. Yes your right early in development they have to make the choice to NOT add crazy numbers of treys and assign every key an action. However this has been happening in PC games anyway.
GTA V, Witcher 3, Bloodborne, et al...defined as "decent" and "good" games.
Okay then, great! So uh, what makes them "decent" and "good" games?
What about them actually makes them "decent" and "good" games for you? Cryptic can't read your mind there. Your opinions are your opinions - you may be intimately familiar with them - but until you share some details about that...it doesn't mean squat to anybody but you. So...share some details, eh? What is it you like about them? What is it you don't like about STO? What could Cryptic do to make the game something you'd like more and you'd not like less?
See...that would be...not being vague. Continuously saying they're "decent" and "good" - when you're the only one that knows what you mean by that...that would be...being vague.
Some examples of not being vague...
Here, they're able to say what they like and don't like about the PC version:
http://www.pcgamer.com/the-witcher-3-review/
Here, they're able to say what they like and don't like about the PS4 version:
www.gamespot.com/reviews/the-witcher-3-wild-hunt-review/1900-6416135/
http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/05/12/the-witcher-3-the-wild-hunt-review
http://www.gamerevolution.com/review/the-witcher-3-wild-hunt
Here, they're able to say what they like and don't like about the Xbox One version:
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/witcher-3-wild-hunt-video-game-review-article-1.2230872
* * * * *
So...can you tell Cryptic that sort of thing...
...or will you just continue being vague?
Yes, I've seen those folks in queues. I'd rather not.
Again...for me...don't care about anybody else on the planet...for me...my opinion...what I like and do not like...everybody else is perfectly free to like what they like and not like what they do not like...it is a weak link.
I don't like ARPGs...I don't want to play a 3D platformer with a story while developing somebody's character's story than my own. I don't care how beautiful it looks...I started with text adventure games. It's like folks talking about 4D TVs...my first TV was an old 13" black & white mono TV.
Stuff that matters to some folks...just doesn't matter to me. Different opinions...simple.
* * * * *
And that's why folks need to offer a little more than vague terms or assume that somebody knows what they're thinking.
Different opinions...two folks can look at the same thing and see something completely different.
Hell, it was a trip in grabbing those reviews earlier... the Australian PlayStation magazine gave the PS4 version 100 while the UK version gave it 80.
And most of this thread wouldn't have happened...if that had been done in the first place. That simple. bluegeek asked for some more info...sharx said bluegeek was wrong. I flipped out...cause how the Hell is not being vague wrong? WTF is that? I mean...seriously?
Tom: Did you like the cake?
Jerry: I wish the cake were decent.
Tom: Hrmm, what would make it decent?
Jerry: I shouldn't have to tell you.
LOLWUTgasm...I mean...seriously.
Shark may not have worded it perfectly and I don't mean to speak for him... but this is what I took away from what he said.
He said....
Video games are ART.
Developers are Artists.
Developers create ART which if it is good, people have fun playing. (because that should be the artists intention in the case of game design)
There for asking for feedback is stupid.
If a developer is incapable of creating a game that is fun to play... and don't understand what that is. Then they are not artists.
I mean its one thing to ask for real general feedback.... but to ask for specific feedback about game design from game players is stupidity. In that regard I sort of agree with him. (if that gets to the point of what he was saying)
Saying I want something fun... I want there to be PvP... and I want it to be balanced so I always feel like My opponents and Myself have an equal chance to prevail if we out play each other. That is the best feedback you can give.
That is it... the only feedback that should matter... anything more specific shouldn't matter... because as game creating artists they should have the vision and the know how to make that happen .
I think Shark was saying the best games out there... are good out of the gate... because they are art pieces. You are right some people will love it some will hate it and most will not agree on every little detail. (just like a good painting or piece of music ect) However when the artists starts paying to much attention to what the viewer or player in this case is saying... there not artists anymore, and there work turns to s**t.
I've lost track of whether it was this thread or the other thread. The concept of templates came up. To me, templates would harken back to the older FPS days. Sure, certain weapons gave an advantage, but they were either a case of knowing the map or they were random spawns - so it wasn't any sort of permanent advantage, etc, etc, etc...
...and somebody just hated that idea. They wanted all their customization and so forth - well, that gets into there being 9001 doohickeys vs. 9001 counters, where there might be a counter for everything - but one can't possibly carry all the potential counters so there will always be advantages.
Different folks want different stuff...even with PvP. And with that, not everybody can obviously get what they want.
I've got to say, I'm really getting stuck on the "art" part. The whole artist and not artist. A lot of art out there...was commissioned. It was product. Somebody wanted something...somebody in turn created something based on that want. Sure, there are all sorts of things where folks just created...no doubt. Games are product though. It's a business. Is commissioned art not art? Are artists that create product...no longer artists?
Which gets into a game like Witcher 3...and calling it art. It's a commissioned product. There was all sorts of feedback involved in its creation. It wasn't created in a vacuum. There was a target audience...and...the game was created for them. Done right, and those folks might fall over themselves about how awesome it is...and possibly even consider it art. Others...not so much.
Which gets back to STO...it's a commissioned product with a target audience. Folks that aren't part of that target audience...aren't going to enjoy it as much as that group. Which is where in wanting Cryptic to apply development resources elsewhere...well, it's going to be a case of needing that feedback (just like any other game) as well as funding it in some way.
Somebody brought up that it's already being funded...as folks buy stuff, upgrade stuff, etc, etc, etc...so development should already be taking place. But then there are the folks that don't think that should happen - don't want that to happen that way. They want it to be funded in another way or not at all.
Which gets into how the mods would probably prefer if folks could provide that constructive feedback without attacking one another for the feedback somebody else offered, yeah?
But somebody thinking a company just magically produced the game they were looking for...well, that's just a wee bit naive. They're part of a demographic...they were targeted for that game...something they might see as art...and they're going to open their wallet it for it.
Cryptic tossing a dart across the room at a handful of ideas...isn't likely to get somebody what they want. They need to let Cryptic know.
I understand what you are saying virus and don't completely disagree with you. I think the way to look at the entire art thing is like this.
Yes there is a such thing as commissioned art... and you could say that any game that is being created to be sold is. However there is a difference between the Mona Lisa... and a Random Scenery painting in a dentists office. They are both commissioned, one is art one is schlock.
There is a reason most game developers listen very little to players. In many cases you can say its because clearly they have an artistic plan for their product... and they may listen, however they will ignore 90% of the feedback because they have a vision and are going to follow it. The issue is at this point... some developers seem to have very artistic visions (imo the height of art in game design is all about fun... which is why many of the industries early games like the Atari and Nintendo classics are some of the highest praised and most loved versions. They where often one or sometimes a small teams artistic game vision). Cryptic for a long time hasn't had anyone at the head that has a vision that doesn't end in $.
I guess I am saying ... YES commissioned art is valid, and if the artist is true to themselves they don't accept commissions that don't fit, and the best artists often didn't give the money people what they wanted. (I mean Pope Julius II didn't get what he asked for from Michelangelo).
To use a more modern example... think about any Big Musical Act you may like. There first records are often pure art in most cases written for them more then anyone else... this is often the best example of their works. The second record almost always sucks because they fall into the trap of trying to give the people what they want. There is a difference between giving the people what they want / pleasing your commission... and completely selling out.
Right now, playing STO... is like watching Ray Charles shill for Coke or Bowie trying to sell us Pepsi. Its like sitting in the front row at a concert with your favorite Metal band, and listening to them belt out power ballads. If it was still the mid 80s it would be like throwing that new Genesis album on and hearing the rubbish they where mass producing then.
I guess I am saying Cryptic has done a really terrible job of finding the line to walk... where as other Developers have. Heck even Bioware who we KNOW is being pressured by EA to start printing cash have managed to stay away from selling power creep. Cryptics leaders need to find there almonds, realize good game design is art... and stand up for the product now and then. There is clearly no vision or plan derived from one to create something that stands as a great video game. It is possible to do both... keep your integrity as an artist AND make money. At this point it is also clear that it isn't a case of the sophomore music album where the artist simply makes the mistake of listening to to many people and looses what makes them special, it is positively a case of a company with people in the drivers seats that are in the business of creating art on the level of the junk hanging in your dentists office that was bought in a special 4/pk of wall coverings.
PS... as for your last line that implies its up to us to narrow things for them so there not throwing darts in the dark. This is the thing. THEY KNOW what makes the game good and what doesn't. They can't not know, its simply not possible for them to have no idea. They don't need our feedback... they need to HIRE someone if the current people can not handle the job. That will Helm the ship, ASK questions of a few key people, and develop there own vision of the game and then run with it. The best games I have ever played where NOT what I expected at all. They where something new and cool. That is the same for any ART... music or painting ect... show me what I expect and I may eat it up for a little while, you may sell me. Create something new and fantastic... and 500 years later people will know you fought with a pope to create it. lol
I mean really... who would have known first person shooters where fun until ID gave use Wolf. Simtex gave us Master of Orion, and instantly I knew 4x games where fun. I mean I'm not expecting STO to get turned around into that type of game changer (lol bad pub) Still... my point is you can't give an artist feedback on something so cool it hasn't been thought of yet. Cryptic needs to try and get in that mind set... listen but toss what doesn't fit the vision... and if they don't have a vision. Wake up call,,, that would be why the game sucks.
...but it got me wondering, what if it were something where with each Specialization released - there was a token one could purchase for a minimal amount to unlock the Specialization on PvP maps as such.
Basically, the Specialization stuff is an issue - yeah? Offering a potential solution at low cost which could help fun the work that went into it - yeah?
Don't know...just a case of trying to have ideas instead of uninstalling the game.
Yes its part of the problem. I don't think (and its my opinion) that is anywhere close to the biggest issue retarding fun in PvP.
I think this is the point Shark was getting at though... it doesn't really matter what you or Hank or I think. Our thoughts on the matter shouldn't matter at all.
A good game company would look at there PvP game... examine it themselves... and come up with a plan to create something they consider acceptable.
I think most of us are beyond the point of thinking some token (because it is easy to implement) would be enough. Cause I doubt it would be. Lets say next patch they change Spec points completely for everyone... and make a couple of PvE ques or PvP games be enough XP to earn a point. Boom everyone of us could have completed specs on any toon in a few days.
If that happened would PVP be saved ?
I tend to doubt it... the current game isn't just broken because there haves and have nots. Let everyone be a have and the game is still flawed in major UNFUN ways.
So its my opinion... that NONE of ours matter. All we can do is voice the truth, that we are unhappy with the game in regards to PvP. If the developer decides that changing that is important. They know what they have to do already. We don't need to tell them.
I think most of us are of the thinking that if they are the type of developer... that has no vision. Or if they have one a developer lacking the integrity as artists to see it realized. (even if it means fighting with the bosses) .... well then perhaps they are not the caliber of developer I want to invest my time in as a consumer. I think what keeps getting tossed around is that there are in fact good examples out there of Games where the developers have done a much better job of walking the line between Art and Pay days.
I don't know there are to many issues to list as I see it... we could list whats wrong with the game for 10,000 posts. What needs to happen is the developers, need to sit down and DECIDE for themselves what parts of the game are good... and decide to expand on them, and decide which parts can be removed. We have given them examples of what we would pay for... other games should act as inspiration in that regard as well. THEY can fix PVP. They are capable. The only question is do they have the artistic vision and integrity to see it though.
Why is the Mona Lisa art? Cause folks have called it art for how long now? Why is the peaceful valley print in the dentist's office schlock? Cause folks have called that type of thing schlock for how long now?
It's like getting into the discussion of literature...and well...gets into certain types calling certain things one thing and certain things something else. Which I bring up, cause I think these two lists side by side speak well to that: http://www.modernlibrary.com/top-100/100-best-novels/
Personally, I'd rather have a peaceful valley hanging on the wall than the Mona Lisa. Hell, I kind of like this photographic print: http://www.art.com/products/p10182106877-sa-i5919423/jamie-judy-wild-two-medicine-lake-and-sinopah-mountain-glacier-national-park-montana-usa.htm?sOrig=CAT&sOrigID=27269&dimVals=27269&ui=7A1523E0EBAF48EDBB8AAE2EC70F9A39
Have you watched... http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1021860/Classic-Game-Postmortem
GDC 2015: Design of Adventure for the Atari 2600 w/ Warren Robeinett
And yes, he did his David & Goliath thing with Atari...heh, so to speak...holding on to his vision.
He talks about the inspiration - the fight against technology limitations - his own boss - marketing - etc, etc, etc...
There's a shorter interview thing that gets into some of what he said as well: http://www.dadgum.com/halcyon/BOOK/ROBINETT.HTM
But yeah, he wanted to do his thing - his vision - fought the good fight. And...quit Atari. He cofounded The Learning Company, but left that as well, eh?
Oh, there's the unpublished version of his book about advemtire games: http://www.2600connection.com/books/book_inventing_adventure.pdf
But yeah, he had to quit...basically. If he hadn't, he'd probably have been fired, right?
Try that these days...it's not much different. Quit or be fired.
And well, it's not the one man show these days...so it's not just one person's vision/desire/goal. They're likely going to be working under somebody, under somebody, where folks are all answering to investors, etc, etc, etc.
Go off and start their own thing? It's still going to be a business. Hell, The Learning Company was started there with a grant, eh?
It's a business world though...and folks have families to feed. The starving artist thing doesn't quite work...not when it comes to something like game development. It's not just hitting up the art supply store, self-publishing ebooks, picking up a guitar from a pawn shop...etc, etc, etc.
Sure, there are all sorts of things for indies to do stuff - and - there are games out there which are a dime for several dozen with that.
"I had a vision. I made the game. Do you want fries with that? Beverage, ma'am?"
Madonna
I'm a fan of power ballads.
The mid 80s Genesis stuff...er...was some of their best selling stuff. Peopled liked it and bought it.
Bioware...SWToR?
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/feature/8149/Star-Wars-The-Old-Republic-SWTOR-F2P-Revisited.html
Would be an article that comes to mind comparing various F2P models.
I'd have to hunt to find somebody saying they've got a good F2P model.
Meh, imho, it was a case of not doing an actual level cap increase. They increased the gap. Folks wanted to keep their ships, so they fudged a way to do that. Had this been another game, all of that would have been lost...and...the gap would have been smaller.
Picture WoW, eh? Folks that bought the expansion vs. the folks that didn't. Basically have that going on. What about players at the same level, eh? Could be vastly different levels of gearing based on the time put in, right? Cryptic lets folks shortcut that time...but the underlying gap is still there.
Somebody can earn Dil from just playing the game, convert that to Zen or use it to upgrade stuff. Just like folks playing in other games in the past could play the game and get better stuff. Cryptic isn't necessarily offering anything different than other games in that regard to power creep. What they are offering folks is a "Finish Now"...buy some Zen instead...use it or convert it to Dil for other things.
And well, given the complaints left, right, and center about how long things take (even when they're a Hell of lot faster than other games in the past)...yeah, Cryptic is more than happy to sell that to them and the folks are more than happy to buy it.
If 60 had been 60 instead of faux 60 like it is...might have been a different story. But it carried over the gap that existed (naturally) at 50 and introduced the gap that will exist at 60 (naturally)...creating a massive gap.
Them selling "Finish Now"...doesn't change the underlying power creep that takes place in almost every game. It's a MMO...it's not a FPS/TPS.
It's a game. I just don't buy into the art thing. It's a game. It's a product. It's meant to be entertainment. We enjoy it while we enjoy it, and we move on when we no longer do. The company tries to keep us for longer...based on...feedback.
People were already playing first person games over a decade before Wolfenstein. It was a natural progression of fun folks were already having. How much of its popularity at the time could be tied to the previous games (almost a decade there too, no?), the release as shareware (how many magazines was that game sitting there for folks, eh?), had folks moving from 386 more into 486, etc, etc, etc...
The desire was already there, there was an IP, the technology began to open up, they did great marketing, and they got to the market early. Art? No...great business.
And well, MOO kind of falls into the same thing...though it wasn't first, it was first called. Folks were already playing 4X games without them being called that. It didn't create it...it was just a relatively well done version of the game. And how much help did it get from Emrich, eh?
STO...continuing the story? So we basically had a DS9 game set later. Hrmm, yeah, DS9...huh...okay, okay...we'll move into VOY after that...huh...okay, okay. While launching it hoping to get in on 2009's Star Trek? Yeah...STO was doomed from the start. Both TOS and TNG sport a better overall rating in general, with TNG edging out TOS overall...though it gets into episodes and so forth, yeah? So launching with that DS9 feel? Hrmmm...yeah...no. Then moving into VOY...yeah...no. After having the reboot thing?
And oh...so the plan's to finish off the Iconian thing and then maybe get into more DS9'ish stuff? Lol...what?
Can I get a FCT T5 Connie woot woot? Can I get multiple Galaxy threadnaughts? How about some remember when we were explorers action? What about a more like Star Trek thread or 9001?
Imagine if they'd had a game set toward the end of TOS and start of TNG. Imagine what they could have offered folks for PvE. Imagine what they could have offered folks for PvP. Yeah, five years in...maybe we could have started hitting up DS9...later on hitting up VOY.
But yeah, I just don't get the art thing with much of the stuff you mentioned. I see business. I see timing. I see marketing.
So much of the stuff that's ended up labeled art while other stuff hasn't...basically comes down to some snooty/snobby person labeling it as such and the rest the sheep wanting to agree. Meh...art doesn't seek such - art is because art is.
I don't think Cryptic needs to go...artsy. I just think they've got a Hell of a lot of things to address from a business sense...unless they're happy with the very small market they've got, which is barely tapping the IP's fanbase.
Personally, I don't think it's a lack of vision. I just think it's a different vision. A vision that's not shared by folks that are complaining...but a vision that's shared by those that don't. It's that simple. Them having a different goal...doesn't mean they don't have one. And I think a bunch of folks are having trouble accepting that. It's not necessarily the game is garbage...it's just it's not the game for certain folks.
It wasn't the game for me back when it released. I bailed on the beta. When they kept having me come back for those weeks of play...at first I didn't get through the week and then I didn't even bother downloading it again.
I changed, somewhat...when I came to STO...I was no longer the pseudo hardcore PvPer. Sure, PvP was my focus - but there was no doubt that the PvP in STO was casual. Hell, my move toward casual PvP had bounced back and forth between Battlegrounds in WoW and Nullsec raids in EVE from where it had been with setting the alarm in the middle of the night because of a bane going live in Shadowbane...or any of the stuff that had taken place earlier.
This game offered the natural progression from pseudo hardcore PvPer into dorking around casual PvP.
It wasn't the game for me...it became the game for me...cause I changed.
And well, now...heh...it's again moving from the game for me to something...it would be pretty easy to walk away from. It really hasn't changed that much since coming back to it with the F2P conversion. But me? I've changed again.
I'd rather have some fun over in TSW...I dig the way they've got their missions set up. PvP? Lol, back when TSW came out...the PvP was so bad and they upped the system requirements, so I couldn't play it at the time. So it was a pass. Yeah, part of that forum vacation and being in the TSW beta...that's where I was...
System requirements are met. Don't care about the PvP in the game. And yup, it's looking pretty good for what I want compared to where I am.
Would be awesome to still hit up some casual PvP and dork around here...but meh...long term...just don't see it with the game as a whole. Had a blast getting obliterated by SOB in Ker'rat the other day...most fun I'd had in months. And in realizing that...it was just kind of damn sad that I was still playing.
It's probably best that I just bail out on the what can be done conversations...not sure there's any saving the game for me.
Everyone is entitled to bad taste.
When STO dies its not likely to get many fond remember STO coverage. We all know what the height of "art" is in the game world. Guess what those games do sell as well. Where its frustrating and you have to admit Virus STO COULD be right up there. It has a unique space/ground setup... and the space side is unique in the industry, properly tended PvP in this game could be some of the best most PvP in all of gaming. (however this developer lacks the vision, even though the majority of us can make that leap and see the potential) For what we have been saying its like they started painting a masterpiece and half way though ran out of money for paint, and then just started throwing junk at the canvas.
Your right though Virus art is always in the eye of the beholder. The sell outs almost always stand out though.
Yet so many other developers manage to do just what we are talking about. The guys that created Witcher are not unhappy and feel they have achieved a great balance between making things commercial (console) and artistic (the massive world). Cryptic hasn't made one addition to this game in years that hasn't had a sales target. You know that's true. I'm not suggesting they should ignore there bosses and do what they want no matter what... but come on fight for the game at least a little.
I'm not sure if you are arguing the point I'm making with this one or trying to prove me right.
The point wasn't the specific examples... its the concept. In every genera of entertainment... performers decide to sell out. They put what the art they believe in on the shelf and listen to some group of fans/producers/managers whatever the case is and produce something solely to make $. Yes some talented people make something that is still not bad... but make no mistake what it is. I mean I admit to getting Kisses stupid disco song stuck in my head now and then... but even they admitted that was about nothing but $. lol
I admit there F2P model sucks. 100% its terrible they shouldn't have bothered and just left it a sub game cause it really is. I am talking about the PVP aspect because that to me is what is important. I don't care if I spend 20 bucks a month on a sub... or drop 20 bucks on micro transactions. What I care about is that money I spend makes no difference to the PvP game. In the case of TOR guess what... if you spend 2000 grand on that game you WILL not have any advantage over me in PvP. If you beat me I will just have to suck it up cause you out played me... Bio doesn't sell power. They sell fancy Stormtrooper helmets, pink light saber crystals... and kick TRIBBLE Leather chaps. They don't sell things like traits/gold weapons ect ect. Nothing you can buy will give you an advantage, you'll just look a little more bada*s.
So if EA can figure out how to provide a pretty well balanced PvP game and not feel the need to $ in ..... I don't think it shines a good light on Cryptic. Cause I think everyone feels there Ah*oles.
Virus how many other MMOs have you played ?
Really though.... every other MMO on the planet sells cosmetics Virus. GW sells cosmetics. Tor sells cosmetics. Rift sells cosmetics. LOTRO sells cosmetics. All of these games also have PvP tech that balances out gear to make it a non factor.
In terms of PvP Cryptic is YEARS behind the competition.
The issue isn't a finish now button, I think you know that. Imagine you where a new players virus with out the stable of alts... where would you get all the Dilihitum from to just do rep projects and pay the basic upgrade prices ? Well you would have to farm and treat the game like a job for a few months to catch up OR.... spend $. That is the issue. New players will never take up STO to do high end PvP as it exists now and call it reasonable to do it with out dropping $... or just being laughably under geared and have little chance of every being useful in PVP for MONTHS.
I think you would make a great Cryptic employee. Walt Disney would have canned you before you even got a mascot head on.
It is ART... Virus or it should be. Its a trek game they should be telling Trek style stories (they need to hire some actual real wrights btw). Good art should be easy on the senses, provoke an emotional response (yes fun is emotional) and make you think. That SHOULD describe any trek game worth playing. Which makes it art. Artists can get rich Virus I am not saying they should stop selling the game. I'm saying they should strike a better balance that would MAKE people want to give them there money. I want to play a game that makes me so happy I buy stupid things even if its PINK saber Crystals for me Female Jedi cause I appreciate the game.
I used those examples not because they where the first but because they where the first COMMERCIAL hits in those areas. Its like Saying Elvis invented rock and roll... of course not, he sold it to the masses in a way that was still artistic, and new for those people. I could have also pointed out Sid Myers and Civ.
Being first isn't the point... perfecting it on an art level is the idea. Wolf/Civ/Moo those games did it better then everyone else... and on a level where people take notice... and they spawn a ton of knock offs, when that happens you know what you got. (seeing as Cryptic in the beginning was seen by most as a quick and dirty MMO clone company I think I'm hoping for a bit much)
Well if you can't see game design as an art form... then you won't no.
Its all ART Virus... the TRIBBLE noise my kids get up to in the garage. Is art. The mass produced art my friend creates for docs and lawyers... its art as well.
Art isn't always good... and of course it can't always be fantastic.
If you want to know how good a piece of art is all you have to do is pay attention to how it ages. Yes good art doesn't always sell and make the artists stupid rich... but some times it does. Stuff that becomes huge almost always is high art like it or not. This includes games yes they are art.
100 years from now people are still going to know what pac man is... wrap your head around that. Anyway think where way off topic. I believe games are art... you don't so where not going to agree on How Cryptic should treat development of there art/product for you.
There it is we won't ever agree. I think the only way they ever save this game in terms of PvP is to stop worrying about the $ and come at it from an artistic view... and just do what they KNOW nees to be done to fix it in a way that makes for a good game. Which bringing things back here... is why I say our feedback means squat. They know exactly what needs to happen to make PvP in this game fun. IMO I doubt they have the integrity to take those steps and convert PVP into a great game mode. Instead I think they will perhaps tack this on or that, do this junk fix or that... and try and pass it off as fixed. Even they will know that is terrible.
Lets all get realistic as well... some of us have HEARD ex Cryptic employees tell us themselves the company isn't willing to do what is required to fix pvp. So all we can do is hope someone in charge there grows a pair and stands up and says... we need to throw X amount of resources at this and fix it proper and see what happens after.
I agree with you completely. They have a vision... sadly. Its how to ring the most amount of $ out of the IP. As a sales man I know there is only 2 ways for me to increase margin on an existing product... sell it for more, or kill my costs.
But that's along the lines of what I was saying that it's not a case of buying power - it's buying time.
Consider a sub game, where somebody's played for three months and paid in $15. During those three months, they scored themselves some gear.
Now imagine if somebody could drop out $45 for that same gear.
They've paid the same as the other person. They've got the same level of power (as far as gear) as the person.
The difference...the time. They paid for "Finish Now"...their buying power was the same price as the other person paid too - and - for the same level of power.
Consider a game with a $50 expansion, where after a period of time the player has reached a new level of power made available by having bought the expansion.
Now imagine if somebody could drop out $50 for that same level of power.
Again, the difference...the time.
And it was a common complaint for so many years from so many players in so many games.
"I don't live in mom's basement and have all the free time in the world to do this - I've got the money, my time is valuable to me, just let me buy the stuff and be done with it."
And voila...guess what games did? Folks that wouldn't pay a $15 month a sub over a period of time to get something, were perfectly fine dropping out $45 to get it now.
Did they get more? No...the difference...the time.
But even before companies started selling the now...every MMO I've played going back to UO has had the character progression where the "catching up" wasn't just about skill - it was about character progression/gear progression as well as skill.
Somebody mentions the only difference should be skill...and...I'm thinking old FPS/TPS games (the older games that don't have character progression/gear progression/tech trees/etc). Like I said, might be a case of knowledge of the map and where weapons are...but that's it. Everything was pretty much skill based...what the player brought to the game, not how their character progressed in the game - they didn't have any character in the game to progress.
MMORPGs though? Nope...always involved character progression in some form as well.
Which gets back in to that "Finish Now"...it equalizes time. Folks don't have to spend months to get stuff...they've got it now. Voila, it becomes about skill at that point. There's not the time spent to catch up for gear...cause the gear's there.
So instead of it being a game where folks pay their sub, have to play X amount of time to get there...they just pay to have it now.
* * * * *
I'm not saying I'm a fan of that. I'm just saying I can see it there for what it is. I've seen the folks over so many years asking for something like that. Heh, not "years" here...I'm talking over a decade of folks wanting to "Finish Now".
Course, one of the things that bugs the Hell out of me about it in this game...is more of a PvE thing...folks get the gear and have no clue how to use it. /facepalm
* * * * *
So outside of making PvP into some sort of standalone/pseudo standalone TPS game...there is going to be more than just skill that creates a gap.
Which gets into...
...and how many times over the years (years here) have folks suggested something like that for STO to fight off the power creep and the gaps? And it's met some of the most vicious resistance I've seen. Hell, it's along the lines of various tourneys and channels where folks have tried to set rules, yeah? What happens? Folks want to use whatever they've got...they don't want to give that up. They like every little edge they can get.
Not all the players want the same thing.
Cause face it, if it was a case that all the players did...what problem would there be with power creep? Folks could just not use any of it...problem solved. But that's not what happened. Constant arms race for how many years now...eh?
We could all be flying around in T5 9 console boats, using basic weapons, no Lock Box/Lobi/Rep/etc, don't spend any Spec Points, no Starship Traits...folks could do Vanilla if they wanted to do it. How well did that work out?
Cryptic's not out there as some monster set about ruining things...they're giving some folks want they want, but not some folks want they want.
And that's pretty much that...it's not the game for some folks while it is the game for others.
Hell, even the thing I said about trying to split that...where the public queues are one way and the private queues are unlimited (whatever folks agree upon themselves)...there are folks that don't want that change for the public queues.
It is a very divided community on many things.
You have proven why PvP will never be fixed as long as Cryptic doesn't focus on the game and not the $.
Yes I agree you can get everything for free in STO if you are willing to spend the time. The issue is the amount of time required before PvP is an option. Start a new account... with out 20 toons. How long will it take you to be on par to be able to have an acceptable PvP toon. If you choose instead to just spend $ how much will it cost you.
The answer to both will be more time and or more money then any sane person would spend to play this game.
That is an issue... not a small one its a game ending issue... and make no mistake for PvP the game has already ended.
As for the second part about people getting upset and fighting over systems that take away there toys. I agree with you... and this is where Cryptic needs to nut up. I don't mean just in regard to there bosses... I mean also to us.
They need to stop listening to EVERYONE there bosses... and the players. Sit down and come up with a plan to create a proper PvP game... and go to it. If they try to tie in 101 new ways to make money or have any one grind out D... they fail. The game remains dead.
+1 zen per kill
-1 zem per death
not sure if trying to troll or serious.
That's just awful.
200 zen per match then?
I like that idea, actually.
I just see one problem with it: 20 Zen = about 5,000 Dil, based off of a 250D:Z conversion rate. They'd never go for that.
It's an interesting concept though - a desirable currency that encourages repeated play due to it's small payout.
so a complete newbie who gets stomped will end up deprived of dilithium or discouraged from doing PvP, or both.
OK, now that this thread is back on topic... lol
This problem exists regardless of rewards, unless there is a ranking system of some kind implemented to keep casuals and newbs out of matches with veteran PvPers, the topic of monetization is somewhat premature...
We should be trying to figure out a way to encourage players to play PvP before we try to pry open their wallets. lol
My $0.02