Rebuilding on a new Engine?

samt1996 · May 2015

I'm not terribly familiar with computer programming but I am aware that STO runs on a somewhat old engine compared to most MMO's these days. One issue is that it's rather limited to what they can add to the game in terms of mechanics and they will hit a wall on development eventually. People seem to think the engine is also being pushed beyond its limits and that's causing problems (lag etc.)

Again I'm not sure if any of this is true I'm just repeating what others have said. In any case, I realize it would be a truly massive undertaking to rebuild STO from scratch with a new engine, but I personally would be more than willing to forego new content for quite some time so they could do this. In the long run it would be better for the game and help prolong its life for a good long time. I think sooner or later they'll be forced to do this and I think they might as well just get it out of the way!

Just think of all the new toys the DEV's will get to play with when they're done! Not to mention the amazing graphics and smoother performance! I am behind Cryptic 100% in whatever they need to do and I'll continue to support them as they work through these issues to improve everyone's experience in the game...

Long live Star Trek!

reynoldsxd · May 2015

samt1996 wrote: »

I'm not terribly familiar with computer programming but I am aware that STO runs on a somewhat old engine compared to most MMO's these days. One issue is that it's rather limited to what they can add to the game in terms of mechanics and they will hit a wall on development eventually. People seem to think the engine is also being pushed beyond its limits and that's causing problems (lag etc.)

Again I'm not sure if any of this is there I'm just repeating what others have said. In any case, I realize it would be a truly massive undertaking to rebuild STO from scratch with a new engine, but I personally would be more than willing to forego new content for quite some time so they could do this. In the long run it would be better for the game and help prolong its life for a good long time. I think sooner or later they'll be forced to do this and I think they might as well just get it out of the way!

Just think of all the new toys the DEV's will get to play with when they're done! Not to mention the amazing graphics and smoother performance! I am behind Cryptic 100% in whatever they need to do and I'll continue to support them as they work through these issues to improve everyone's experience in the game...

Long live Star Trek!

Never gonna happen.

The manpower required to redo all assets is way out of scope for cryptic, a company run on a shoestring budget XD

lindaleff · May 2015

I want ground to be a proper First Person Shooter. I want explosions, I want to demolish, and I want realistic guns. That means I want finding and using ammo to be a thing.

solarwraith · May 2015

Before this game ever sees a new engine the Andromeda and the Milky Way galaxies will have already completed their merger.

a3001 · May 2015

samt1996 wrote: »

I'm not terribly familiar with computer programming...!

So you'd want everyone's accounts to be hard wiped just for one extra shiny whistle? no thanks.

rosetyler51 · May 2015

lindaleff wrote: »

I want ground to be a proper First Person Shooter. I want explosions, I want to demolish, and I want realistic guns. That means I want finding and using ammo to be a thing.

I'm going to think you are joking...because no one sane would talk about Star Trek and realistic in the same breath

a3001 · May 2015

rosetyler51 wrote: »

I'm going to think you are joking...because no one sane would talk about Star Trek and realistic in the same breath

*passing Geiger counter over posts* Not sure if joke....or sarcasm...

rattler2 · May 2015

lindaleff wrote: »

I want ground to be a proper First Person Shooter. I want explosions, I want to demolish, and I want realistic guns. That means I want finding and using ammo to be a thing.

You want the Elite Force games?

hwasun · May 2015

lindaleff wrote: »

I want ground to be a proper First Person Shooter. I want explosions, I want to demolish, and I want realistic guns. That means I want finding and using ammo to be a thing.

If we are asking I want them to play Nexus:TJI, Star Wolves, the battlecruiser games, FTL, Infinite Space and a few other games, take the key elements of each, evolve them a few iterations, and mix it all up in a deliberate, tactically deep, mechanically complex space combat system where facing a single NPC ship in battle is the climax of the episode and where a squadron of players taking on a single Borg cube qualifies as STF.

And since we are at it let's have them drop the thing where the captain and her core officers go in away missions and instead have a mixture of Jagged Alliance 2, Terror from the deep, Invisible Inc, etc in place with us commanding the away team from the bridge and every mistake is rewarded by our DOFFs getting eaten alive by lobstermen, or angry Klingons, or whatever.

... If only.

voivodje · May 2015

If the engine is compatible, most can be used from the old game, such as graphics and the lot.
Some things might be needed to redone, but depending on the level of engine compatibility with the old one, it's a fairly "easy" task.
More, with the old content on a souped up engine, you get some leeway in power.

Now I KNOW that I simplified it, but this would be basically the point.
On the other side... there is the cost of the engine, and this can be quite expensive.

mustrumridcully0 · May 2015

Rebuilding on a new engine is the same as making a new game.

Star Trek Online II won't happen as long Star Trek Online is still doing fine.

bobbydazlers · May 2015

samt1996 wrote: »

I'm not terribly familiar with computer programming but I am aware that STO runs on a somewhat old engine compared to most MMO's these days. One issue is that it's rather limited to what they can add to the game in terms of mechanics and they will hit a wall on development eventually. People seem to think the engine is also being pushed beyond its limits and that's causing problems (lag etc.)

Again I'm not sure if any of this is there I'm just repeating what others have said. In any case, I realize it would be a truly massive undertaking to rebuild STO from scratch with a new engine, but I personally would be more than willing to forego new content for quite some time so they could do this. In the long run it would be better for the game and help prolong its life for a good long time. I think sooner or later they'll be forced to do this and I think they might as well just get it out of the way!

Just think of all the new toys the DEV's will get to play with when they're done! Not to mention the amazing graphics and smoother performance! I am behind Cryptic 100% in whatever they need to do and I'll continue to support them as they work through these issues to improve everyone's experience in the game...

Long live Star Trek!

they may well have to develop a new platform for sto to run on in the future but don't assume it will be just a matter of foregoing new content for a period of time or even not being able to log in at all for a week or so.

think more along the lines of having to start from scratch with new characters who have no gear or history and maybe even loosing any benefits you may have gained from purchasing a lifetime sub or subbing monthly, in fact anyone who has a lifetime sub in sto version 1 might not even have it transferred to sto version 2 and they may even not offer such a package.

aesica · May 2015

reynoldsxd wrote: »

Never gonna happen.

The manpower required to redo all assets is way out of scope for cryptic, a company run on a shoestring budget XD

You don't need to recreate all of the assets (graphics, sound, maps/overall game structure, etc) to build a new engine. All the engine does is interpret the game assets and present them to you in an interactive fashion.

Having said that, making a new engine would be a complete waste of resources.

I do however think that, within our existing engine, ground could use a fair amount of work given how clumsy it plays. Rubberbanding, the implementation of autofire, and the sometimes-unresponsive nature of abilities are all just a few examples. Other parts of the interface could use a tune-up too, such as having to try a few times to drag/drop an item in your inventory.

Other than that, the game is good enough. I'd rather see new content.

cypherous · May 2015

a3001 wrote: »

So you'd want everyone's accounts to be hard wiped just for one extra shiny whistle? no thanks.

Why would everyones account be wiped?

All they would be upgrading would be the games physics/graphics engines, that wouldn't require a wipe of character data :P

But as mentioned its a massive undertaking and you're more likely to see hell freeze over first, and considering hell doesn't exist...

apsciliara · May 2015

sopwithsnipe wrote: »

Yeah cuz it's realistic to find ammo that conveniently fits whatever weapons you are using lying all over the ground on alien planets. :rolleyes:

I blame Mass Effect.
To be fair, the majority of ammo in STO would be power cells. And... well, energy is energy.

apsciliara · May 2015

cypherous wrote: »

But as mentioned its a massive undertaking and you're more likely to see hell freeze over first, and considering hell doesn't exist...

Your move. :P

cypherous · May 2015

apsciliara wrote: »

Your move. :P

That freezing is definitely of the under variety :P

lindaleff · May 2015

rattler2 wrote: »

You want the Elite Force games?

Basically. Although I was actually thinking more like Star Wars: Republic Commando. The combat actually felt like combat. You needed to monitor your health and ammo, and your team's as well. You could pick up ammo, recharge health at bacta stations, and upgrade your weapons with parts found during the missions.

And each member of the team had a speciality that made their use strategic, such as needing demolitions at this location, needing a sniper camping up there, or needing a computer hacker to get you into that compound.

Imagine that in STO. Guns have limited shots, requiring ammo of some sort, even if that ammo is a battery. You need to pick up batteries around the battlefield to make sure your guns don't run out of power. Health is regenerated by medkits, or medical stations. Each member of your team has a specific speciality that makes them valuable, and you can switch to control each member.

And of course, it needs to be in First Person.

bobbydazlers · May 2015

aesica wrote: »

You don't need to recreate all of the assets (graphics, sound, maps/overall game structure, etc) to build a new engine. All the engine does is interpret the game assets and present them to you in an interactive fashion.

Having said that, making a new engine would be a complete waste of resources.

I do however think that, within our existing engine, ground could use a fair amount of work given how clumsy it plays. Rubberbanding, the implementation of autofire, and the sometimes-unresponsive nature of abilities are all just a few examples. Other parts of the interface could use a tune-up too, such as having to try a few times to drag/drop an item in your inventory.

Other than that, the game is good enough. I'd rather see new content.

indeed graphics, sound, maps/overall game structure could be quite easy to port, what they actually might have problems with is user data, the characters you have, what ships they have , what doffs and boffs you have and what equipment you have.
also fleet starbases and other holdings could also be lost.
also things like accolades currency`s and even any unspent zen might also be lost.
they might also take the opportunity to clear out any data from lapsed players this might even involve wiping out all lifetime and monthly subscribers benefits and starting afresh.

you see we have all been playing sto (star trek online) they need only rename the new model game to something else like stco (star trek conflicts online) and its a complete new game with no ties to old players even if it might have some aspects from the old game copied over.

ever heard the saying "be careful what you wish for".

o.k im thinking worse case scenario here but as the above saying implies, If you get things that you desire, there may be unforeseen and unpleasant consequences.

adamkafei · May 2015

Actually, as long as all the assets are remade and tied up properly, characters (and C-store purchases) shouldn't suffer as that data is stored on the account, which isn't directly tied to the game, I think the zen should be okay as well, if not then it can be catalogued and later returned.

ryugasirius · May 2015

bobbydazlers wrote: »

indeed graphics, sound, maps/overall game structure could be quite easy to port, what they actually might have problems with is user data, the characters you have, what ships they have , what doffs and boffs you have and what equipment you have.
also fleet starbases and other holdings could also be lost.

Nope, remember that when you open an inventory, or equip a rifle, what the server sends you is simply a list of items, or an acknowledgement ("requirements ok, you equipped the rifle"), not much about how the info is displayed, it is the client that does the "magic" and shows an UI element with lots of shiny icons in it, or attaches a rifle model on your character model.

The graphics engine is mostly client-related and it is about how the client displays whatever information the server sends. It might require some degree of rework server-side in order to send more/better kind of information, but it isn't about changing the underlying game or account data (as in inventories, C-store purchases, owned ships etc).

savnoka · May 2015

Yes, this is very well and good. What no one is discussing, of course, is why Cryptic or PWE would invest the money to do this.

Creating a new engine capable of doing what they want (assuming, of course, they even KNOW what they want) is going to be costly. On top of that, then they need to build it in such a way that it

a) manages to identify, load, and correctly assign all older DB data for the actual player information

b) has no show-stopping bugs, which, given the CURRENT engine, is simply not a skill-set they seem to possess at this (or any other) time

c) allows Cryptic to make a profit

I'm assuming no one wants to pay for such an upgrade? Does the OP expect them to simply take a financial hit and hope when they get done it attracts new players, and that the bugs aren't worse than they already are or that PWE doesn't use the change over as a way to invalidate lifetime subs or some other metric-enhancing nonsense?

I remain leery of such concepts and anything that sounds like NGE, frankly.

qziqza · May 2015

what is more likely is that cryptic will keep powering away on their secret projects, with the hope they will eventually provide their main source of income. sto will continue to run on this engine 'as is' for as long as it can, with the odd tweak here and their, and then 1 day it will simply go the way of the dinosaurs.

amezuki · May 2015

Will never happen. There is no financial support for such an undertaking.

The only way we will ever see STO on a new game engine is if one is developed in parallel for STO 2, and I don't see a sequel as very likely.

noroblad · May 2015

It is not easy to swap usually. The bulk of the graphics and physics would have to be re-done if not completely, at least in part, and that would be thousands of man-hours of work. Often, even if the engines are compatible, why bother to upgrade if you do not retexture and remodel the 3-d work? To make the game look better, they have to redraw it at a higher resolution with more detail etc... that is where the work is. Moving the exact same files to a new engine might have some better performance or something but it won't look any better without some WORK being done (and quite a bit of it).

starkaos · May 2015

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

Rebuilding on a new engine is the same as making a new game.

Star Trek Online II won't happen as long Star Trek Online is still doing fine.

Depends on CBS. Everquest and Lineage both had their sequels available while the originals were still available. Of course, these MMOs were subscription based at the time and likely had more players than STO had before it went F2P. Of course, CBS could do the same thing as Star Wars Galaxy where it was shut down shortly before The Old Republic went live.

fiberteksyfir · May 2015

I dunno if any of you remember this, but ragnarok online tried this. They made an RO2 and it bombed.. New gfx engine and everything.. Problem was it just wasnt the same game. People like the engine the game is on and it works fine and they have shown it is adaptable to changes as needed.15 years later and the original regnarok is still doing well, and needless to say eve (which did get a premium gfx update but thats just an extra layer of texturing really) and WoW are both doing quite fine having no complete rewrites..

ryugasirius · May 2015

savnoka wrote: »

I'm assuming no one wants to pay for such an upgrade? Does the OP expect them to simply take a financial hit and hope when they get done it attracts new players, and that the bugs aren't worse than they already are or that PWE doesn't use the change over as a way to invalidate lifetime subs or some other metric-enhancing nonsense?

I remain leery of such concepts and anything that sounds like NGE, frankly.

To relaunch the game. The Delta Recruit event goes in that sense, but having a 6 years old engine which looks like minecraft when compared to modern games doesn't work exactly well.

A new engine is pretty much a new game, to most players. And you don't need to redesign the whole game, just the graphics.

What most truly new games lack is content. STO has plenty. Make it shiny, ???, and profit!!

starkaos · May 2015

City of Heroes introduced Ultra Mode in 2010 which immensely improved all the graphics in the game. They didn't need to replace the engine with a better model just do a bunch of upgrades to the current engine.

zathri83 · May 2015

Hopefully a new engine wouldn't have pvp.

rezking · May 2015

samt1996 wrote: »

I'm not terribly familiar with computer programming but I am aware that STO runs on a somewhat old engine compared to most MMO's these days. One issue is that it's rather limited to what they can add to the game in terms of mechanics and they will hit a wall on development eventually. People seem to think the engine is also being pushed beyond its limits and that's causing problems (lag etc.)

Again I'm not sure if any of this is true I'm just repeating what others have said. In any case, I realize it would be a truly massive undertaking to rebuild STO from scratch with a new engine, but I personally would be more than willing to forego new content for quite some time so they could do this. In the long run it would be better for the game and help prolong its life for a good long time. I think sooner or later they'll be forced to do this and I think they might as well just get it out of the way!

Just think of all the new toys the DEV's will get to play with when they're done! Not to mention the amazing graphics and smoother performance! I am behind Cryptic 100% in whatever they need to do and I'll continue to support them as they work through these issues to improve everyone's experience in the game...

Long live Star Trek!

Only if there were a financial benefit to a complete overhaul.
Right now, that doesn't exist.
If the game were to bottom out, however...

Rebuilding on a new Engine?

Comments

When I think about everything we've been through together,

maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

and if that journey takes a little longer,

so we can do something we all believe in,

I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

When I think about everything we've been through together,

maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

and if that journey takes a little longer,

so we can do something we all believe in,

I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.