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Brotherhood of the Sword is the worst level in any game I've played

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  • azniadeetazniadeet Member Posts: 1,871 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Brotherhood is the best ground STF Cryptic has released since Into the Hive. It's genuinely fun and it's not mindless.

    I've been critical of the Heralds' design... but apart from the fact that you're basically fighting the Protoss, it's a cool mission. 9/10 from me.
  • minababeminababe Member Posts: 182 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I love this mission, too. This is the first queue I've ever played on a regular basis.
    My Foundry Mission--Name: Falling Star | Mission ID: HQIH36HAW | Faction: FED
  • cecil08cecil08 Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    A few of things:

    Make sure your gear is up to date. Everyone is so obsessed with space in this game that nobody thinks about ground. If you aren't geared for ground, gear up before you do this.

    Spec Commando. See above with space but Commando is - to put it bluntly - OP. I am fully speced in Commando.

    If you are fully speced in Commando, aim and crouch at ALL times. Crouching gives you a HoT and aiming will give you a HUGE boost to damage.

    During the times you aren't crouching and aiming, RUN. If you are speced Commando, this gives you a knock down. Knock those suckers down.

    Finally, read the objectives and know what you are supposed to do. This mission can't be rushed through and DPSed down. You have to know what you are doing - like most ground missions.

    Maybe that's why people hate ground in this game: it requires more thinking than "OMG DPS PEW PEW"

    Anyway I do this mission on Advanced all the time with no problems.
  • gerwalk0769gerwalk0769 Member Posts: 1,095 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    farranor wrote: »
    It's a beautiful cornucopia of totally absurd design decisions.

    1. Abrupt change from usual mission criteria (kill everything as fast as possible while ignoring objectives)
    2. Filled with enemies that kill you in one hit (on NORMAL)
    3. Filled with enemies that constantly drop your targeting, teleport behind you, and generally kill you
    4. When there's bad stuff on the ground (red circle/cone, etc.), you can step out of it and be several feet away from the edge and it will still hit you
    5. Death is meaningless due to popping back up in the same spot 3 seconds later
    6. A tac officer with stealth module can cruise past most of the mission, because they can activate devices without breaking stealth (sometimes this is needed to get past teams who don't know what to do, but bad design doesn't excuse more bad design)

    This level is like Mario Party (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2015/04/08/). Success is random, skill is irrelevant, and nothing I do matters. Activate devices properly? Doesn't mean a thing if you don't have help. Good defensive items and skills? Doesn't mean a thing, because you will die. If everyone knows what to do and where to go? Great! We're done in five minutes. But when the experience is drawn out to ten or fifteen minutes, I would literally rather be working. When you've designed part of a game that feels worse than work, you have not created a level in a game. You have created a failure.

    As soon as I have enough marks for T5 rep, I'm done with this mission.

    I disagree.

    1) I like the fact that you have to pay attention to mission optionals and goals, and that they change. Players who ran, spammed the "F" key to disable devices without looking at the mission menu to see what objectives had to be completed beforehand missed the point of the mission and cost the team many victories. Bad design was not including a mandatory blurb by those goals but the design of this mission was very good.

    2) While I've never been one shotted sorry to hear that you have. I usually run with MACO armor.
    3) For ground, the unlock target is a fun, and annoying, mechanic. Do you bring health/shield heals and hypos to the match? See 4 for bugs.
    4) I've run into a boss bug (hiding/caught in walls) but nothing else. Bugs are annoying.
    5) On Elite with death comes injury and the ability to acquire more debilitating injuries.
    6) I'm not sure how it is operating now but before on Elite, and I think on Advanced for mandatory stuff, spamming the "F" key to disable devices lead to missions failures if people did not pay attention to the mission map and do mandatories before hand.

    On advanced missions success was not random, you paid attention and completed mandatory goals or you lost, period. Therefore, what you do matters. Enemies have strategies, Mr. Rivera runs over some creature behaviors in his latest P1 interview. He even runs over some of his strategies for dealing with enemies on the ground.

    Having problems activating devices? If you did not bring enough heals or cannot heal then perhaps you can protect others when they deactivate devices. However, that takes communication, which is essential in this mission at this point since many people do not know how to run it. Communication is hard, tedious, and annoying but on the advanced levels was needed to get everyone on the same page. At the beginning of the match type out:

    "For good measure, let's clear the room first, then do mandatories and optionals, then disable devices. Heal the Orion before interacting with him and take him straight to the drop off point. Any questions?"

    Answer questions as needed; you have then told the team one winnable strategy. If you lose you can repeat your strategy, and if you win they then know how to run the mission and will share it with others.

    Skills and items can make a difference. I find my Endothermic mod is excellent in this map as a damaging potential hold. Sonic Pulse (push) is good also. Expose and Exploit weapons are also good. They help you clear the area. The Reputation Sci module Photonic Overload can really shine in this mission.

    Bug Hunt Elite is a drawn out bore of a mission (I've ground it out for two Reputations, enough already) that you need to donate 20+ minutes to run in many premade teams. Brotherhood can take much less time; and thank you to the Devs for developing a mission like this. It is quick, not too dps heavy, and engaging. Kudos!

    If you want to run a mission with me, just pm me.
    Joined STO in September 2010.
  • edited May 2015
    This content has been removed.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Anytime someone has anything to say about difficult gameplay, all the "lurn2play!" trolls come out of the woodwork. They always say improve your gear, practice your skills, get this and that trait or special equipment, and the like. It's elitism, saying "Well I'm awesome and so I have no problem facerolling everything, so what's wrong with you?!".

    This of course misses the point that you shouldn't have to do those things to have a fun and successful run in a NORMAL difficulty mission. Normal difficulty is supposed to be for people who are still in the process of gearing up, earning marks, testing out their builds, earning skills, and learning how to play better before they try to tackle Advanced. There is no damned excuse whatsoever for a difficulty scale so broken that a fresh 50 with blue or purple Mk 12 gear should have so much trouble with Normal. It's bad design, period.

    Spare your "I can do it so if you can't you suxxors!" line of sh!te, save it for Advanced and Elite. We are talking about Normal, which shouldn't be chasing away new Admirals and making them ragequit. It's a perfect way to chase off any new players Delta Recruiting brought in by frustrating the hell out of them. Adjustments are sorely needed.
    Uh, I've done normal on a L53 char with nothing but mission reward gear(including the RIN set, but you could probably use the Jem'Hadar gear just as well)... So yeah, if you get owned by the Heralds it's because you stink at ground combat.

    If you know how to play ground, then no, you don't need high end gear, or lockbox traits, or anything like that.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • minababeminababe Member Posts: 182 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Anytime someone has anything to say about difficult gameplay, all the "lurn2play!" trolls come out of the woodwork. They always say improve your gear, practice your skills, get this and that trait or special equipment, and the like. It's elitism, saying "Well I'm awesome and so I have no problem facerolling everything, so what's wrong with you?!".

    This of course misses the point that you shouldn't have to do those things to have a fun and successful run in a NORMAL difficulty mission. Normal difficulty is supposed to be for people who are still in the process of gearing up, earning marks, testing out their builds, earning skills, and learning how to play better before they try to tackle Advanced. There is no damned excuse whatsoever for a difficulty scale so broken that a fresh 50 with blue or purple Mk 12 gear should have so much trouble with Normal. It's bad design, period.

    Spare your "I can do it so if you can't you suxxors!" line of sh!te, save it for Advanced and Elite. We are talking about Normal, which shouldn't be chasing away new Admirals and making them ragequit. It's a perfect way to chase off any new players Delta Recruiting brought in by frustrating the hell out of them. Adjustments are sorely needed.

    Sorry, but you are the one being a troll right now. I'm not a brilliant ground combat person by any means--nor do I have any elite gear-- and yet have never had difficulty playing Brotherhood of the Sword on Normal or seen anyone struggle with it. 95% manage to survive each session without even dying once, and the others that do die multiple times just soldier on and keep playing until each objective is completed. I have never seen anyone rage quit either, and I always see Delta Recruits playing. So you are trolling when you claim that BoTS on Normal is so difficult that it's causing "admirals to rage quit" and chasing away Delta Recruits. It's not true, not even close to being true.

    Not only are you trolling with this "ragequit" nonsense, you're trolling by mischaracterizing the intent of the advice being given in this thread by players. No one in this thread ever said, "I can do it so if you can't you suxxors." What they've been saying is, "This isn't so hard; if you just follow this advice, you will do well, too/find this less frustrating." The fact that you're trying so twist around the good intentions of the people in this thread shows how little objectivity you have in regards to BotS.
    My Foundry Mission--Name: Falling Star | Mission ID: HQIH36HAW | Faction: FED
  • abaddon653abaddon653 Member Posts: 1,144 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    farranor wrote: »
    What do you mean, "so what"? So that makes it a poorly-designed game.

    So because YOU have difficulties with the mission and because YOU keep dieing that makes it poor game design? Sorry to tell ya bud, the game does not revolve around only YOU.
  • yreodredyreodred Member Posts: 3,527 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I found that mission pretty chaotic tbh.

    But i'm not an expert in ground combat, mostly because there a almost no guides i could find (the only one was 3 years old).

    At first i went into the "normal" version of it (PUG), mostly because my gear was rather so-so.
    Surely we ultimately finished the mission, but it wasn't really fun. The enemies where pretty hard to kill and the objectives wheren't easy to find.

    I think the biggest problem is that there's just too much going on, even the most unimportant ability has a graphical effect, so it's pretty confusing to know what to do or even to see where the enemy is before they instant kill you, lol.
    It's even worse than space combat, because it feels like 10 times as fast.
    I know it's not just related to this mission but ground combat in general, but i never really had any problem in ground combat zones, like the dyson sphere zone or deferi zone. But ground STFs are just not my thing lol.
    "...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--" - (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie

    A tale of two Picards
    (also applies to Star Trek in general)
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I've been 1 shotted every now and then by that real sucker of a punch that defiler got... with that glow thing he gives off...

    however no I don't generally die. All three classes have an ability to stay alive a long time on the ground. Sci have great heals, engineers can tank and tacs can beam in redshirts that... well do what they're famous for.

    The trick? move, run, dodge, get on your knees and beam in redshirts, turrets or buff yourself up.

    Traits and spec helps too as well. Killing them faster helps too. Tac buffs and debuffs really, really do a lot. I find that I blow through this map if I beam in distractions then buff the entire team up and use FOMM on the heavier mobs...
  • dongemaharudongemaharu Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    There are more than enough good tips in this thread(especially mine, ahem) to help get one through the mission without too much trouble. I hope whoever can't get through the mission actually bothers to take a few of the suggestions here. Who knows, it might work.
  • borg0vermindborg0vermind Member Posts: 498 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    The mission is relatively easy, just as most ground ones.

    Problems:
    1. People stay to kill everything instead of using the consoles.
    2. Too many stay idle, making pressing all 3 consoles in the same time impossible.

    Tactic: press consoles, ignore spawnlings.
    I say that to every team at start.

    Nothing u can do about idlers tho'.

    Another general problem with ground is insta-kill. And I'm talking in full MK14-purple gear.
    Practically, almost every type of serious attack can instant-kill you.
    What does not 1shot you, 1shots your shield. So you sometimes can survive one by using various HP/SP recovery stuff, but at the second or 3rd shot you're dead. It's almost like everyone having Borg Queen's space weapon by comparison.
    That makes the ground runs a suicide-respawn-suicide type of approach.
    Very valid for BotS mission. If you're shield overcharged and stimed and super-buffed the moment you open fire at the start of the mission you get instant'd. On a tac, you really can't do anything about it except hope you can object-dodge after your first shot. If you stay to fight, you're insta-killed.

    The ground system needs at least x3 shields or HP compared to what it has now.
  • azniadeetazniadeet Member Posts: 1,871 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Also, watch for optionals. DO NOT activate the consoles until the optionals are clear.
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    azniadeet wrote: »
    Also, watch for optionals. DO NOT activate the consoles until the optionals are clear.

    "Objectives", since optionals are optionals and wont result in a fail.
  • smokeybacon90smokeybacon90 Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    OP should go play Undine Assault.

    Whoever designed that mission must be some kind of psycho-TRIBBLE. :D
    EnYn9p9.jpg
  • thatcursedwolfthatcursedwolf Member Posts: 1,617 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I've only done it on Normal. The "optionals" are too trollable for my tastes to mess with Advanced and I don't need Advanced to get the special marks anymore.

    Mark XIII VR Romulan Imperial Navy armor and shield, mk XI R.I.N. kit, with a mk XIV lucky Romulan repeater that on its journey from mkVIII went to UR and Gold with win-the-lottery luck by mk XI (on top of it picking up a CrtD at UR making it CrtHx2 CrtDx2), on a Orion sci officer. So decently geared but not top notch.

    I like this mission. Yes, it's different. No, it's not a kill-em-all. But despite what some anti-pug people claim, the pugs are learning to ignore the mobs and go for the consoles. Now if BHN would pop more often I'd be a happier ground camper.
    This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Now if BHN would pop more often I'd be a happier ground camper.

    BHE pops nearly once a minute, I would try that ;)
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    woodwhity wrote: »
    BHE pops nearly once a minute, I would try that ;)

    oddly enough, I find BHE easier than BHA
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    oddly enough, I find BHE easier than BHA
    the only real difference is in the need to kill the alarm bugs.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    the only real difference is in the need to kill the alarm bugs.

    I dunno, I find the spawnmother heals faster on BHA, and the pestilences kill faster too as well.
  • thatcursedwolfthatcursedwolf Member Posts: 1,617 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    woodwhity wrote: »
    BHE pops nearly once a minute, I would try that ;)

    The only [Tox] armor I have is a "free" Nukara enviro suit, pulsewaves aren't my favorite ground weapon, and I'm not looking to farm up Undine marks to farm up Delta marks. Plus I play with a controller so I'd never be able to tab target an alarm bug anyways.

    Trying to parse a new ship build in old-and-familiar ISA is frustrating enough. (Basically, if a Scimitar doesn't fly up to the cubes, it's going to vape a gen right off the bat, and no one else seems to be packing grav wells.) Eating a half hour cooldown for missing a nearly identical alarm bug in a massive swarm doesn't sound fun at all.
    This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I dunno, I find the spawnmother heals faster on BHA, and the pestilences kill faster too as well.
    Interesting observation. Can't say I've played it enough recently to know for sure.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Interesting observation. Can't say I've played it enough recently to know for sure.

    team of 3 heavy dpsers as in post 400 hit it with 2 pugs. we died a lot. we hit it on Elite and did not die once. It was puzzling.

    same goes for DRSA and DRSE
  • buccaneerdtbbuccaneerdtb Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    cecil08 wrote: »
    A few of things:
    If you are fully speced in Commando, aim and crouch at ALL times. Crouching gives you a HoT and aiming will give you a HUGE boost to damage.

    Crouching also makes you take far more damage from melee ... http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ability:_Crouch
    Do NOT crouch when enemies are using melee.
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Crouching also makes you take far more damage from melee ... http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ability:_Crouch
    Do NOT crouch when enemies are using melee.


    if the enemy gets close enough to melee you, you're not doing enough dps
  • millimidgetmillimidget Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Get the delta alliance ground set, and level it to mark xiv. Depending on your class, fill out your gear with the counter-command 2-piece.

    Spec at least ten points into commando to fill out tier 2; the bonus health is valuable.

    When you're accessing a secondary node, remember to turn while channeling so as to face your attackers, removing their flanking bonus.

    Keep thralls at range. When they enter a gate, they're going to quickly appear behind your current location; move, and turn to remove their flanking bonus.

    The operative (probably) still needs to be healed and/or resurrected before being escorted. Pray no one activates room 3's primary node while you're escorting him. Enemies are highly attracted to him.

    Don't access the primary node in room 2 until the fire team has been escorted safely, and don't access the primary node in room 3 until the operative has been escorted safely. If someone else activates the primary node in either of these rooms before the associated secondary objective is completed, assist only enough to prevent the associated secondary objective from failing. It typically takes most groups several attempts to coordinate the primary and secondary node activations, and you may be able to complete the associated secondary objective in that time.
    "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
  • buccaneerdtbbuccaneerdtb Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    if the enemy gets close enough to melee you, you're not doing enough dps

    Or you are activating the consoles, or tanking all enemies because several teammates have died, or you have pulled aggro from the teammate who is activating a console.

    You may want to peruse this thread http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1445481
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Or you are activating the consoles, or tanking all enemies because several teammates have died, or you have pulled aggro from the teammate who is activating a console.

    You may want to peruse this thread http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1445481


    being a little sarcastic... lol

    I've actually had the entire team die around me and had to kill everything around me... t5 delta rep sure came in handy
  • buccaneerdtbbuccaneerdtb Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    being a little sarcastic... lol

    I've actually had the entire team die around me and had to kill everything around me... t5 delta rep sure came in handy

    Yeah, and I am Science so it doesn't kill the enemies, just irritates them a lot, lol.
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Yeah, and I am Science so it doesn't kill the enemies, just irritates them a lot, lol.

    true, the t5 delta rep can be massively boosted by tac abilities... I've actually used it to empty the bar on Nimbus in 1 shot...

    For a tac using every single ability including aiming... it can go anywhere between 1600 to 2300 damage. It's a nasty piece of work.
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