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Issues with Stargate Atlantis

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  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    how can i be sure of that? youre ask me to put words in other persons mouth.

    I am asking you to use common sense, not put words in someone's mouth. Where else would Sheppard ask about the solar panels 40 millennia 'after the city was abandoned'?
    ive had the chance to run through the episode in question, its one of those future episodes that ceases to exist, that makes it just as dubious as the year of hell for a hard canon claim.

    If Sheppard (who was from the 'present', mind you!) referenced the solar panels, then that pretty much removes every element of doubt.
    westmetals wrote: »
    Except, the way ships on water work is to enclose hollow spaces... in short, to be less dense than the water they are taking the place of by virtue of the shape of the hull. The actual mass doesn't matter, as long as it is less than that of the displaced water. And water's pretty dense (salt water more than fresh, too).

    Note that when Atlantis was submerged, it was tethered to the ocean floor.

    Modern aircraft carriers for example... can have a mass of around 100,000 tons... are built of steel and other metals... and yet they still float without any special pumps or forcefields...

    Yes, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of 'starship' under the waterline. Just because the city had to be tethered to the ocean floor in order to stay there doesn't mean that it would rise up to the level portrayed in the rest of the series.

    Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.p3OEBPD6HU3QI.jpg
  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    corelogik wrote: »
    Oh ok yeah, I saw that one. Just didn't see the part where they found the Ancient's ZPM factory,... guess I'll have to watch the episode again. I have all of 'em and it's not like I won't enjoy it,... lol

    In any case, it just seems that finding/reactivating the Ancient's ZPM and Jumper factories would be THE top priority. They just never seemed to be. Though they did have a habit of going from crisis to crisis,...

    They didn't find any 'ZPM factory'. They were trying to restart Project Arcturus, only without all the downsides that wound up destroying 5/6ths of the Dorandan system.

    It would have been fine, too - if they hadn't stumbled upon an inhabited universe, specifically, Rod's reality.

    Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.p3OEBPD6HU3QI.jpg
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    its not that they couldnt its that they were not able to hold full control over the host 24/7. which isnt good for one hiding or trying to complete a mission
    Also, an immature larva might accidentally kill the host.

    that was seen in the episode with Eigeria. Some of her larva tried to take hosts before they were ready, but accidentally killed the hosts.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,582 Community Moderator
    edited May 2015
    Actually I think the hosts were still alive, but the larva left them a blank slate. No personality or anything. Just... there. On the ground. Able to do nothing but breath.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
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  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Actually I think the hosts were still alive, but the larva left them a blank slate. No personality or anything. Just... there. On the ground. Able to do nothing but breath.

    A braindead person is still dead, Rattler. ;)
  • corelogikcorelogik Member Posts: 1,039 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    dalolorn wrote: »
    They didn't find any 'ZPM factory'. They were trying to restart Project Arcturus, only without all the downsides that wound up destroying 5/6ths of the Dorandan system.

    It would have been fine, too - if they hadn't stumbled upon an inhabited universe, specifically, Rod's reality.

    Right. The poster I was replying to though, suggested that they did find it.
    they show the factory to produce ZPMs in one of the last ones with Weir. And yes, they would deplete power far too quickly. Plot armour...

    I agree they DID NOT find it, and one would think considering the issue they were facing, they should have devoted considerable resources into doing so,... that and the Jumper factory. They seemed to go through quite a few of those as well.
    "Go play with your DPS in the corner, I don't care how big it is." ~ Me
    "There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    dalolorn wrote: »
    If Sheppard (who was from the 'present', mind you!) referenced the solar panels, then that pretty much removes every element of doubt.

    and if you said you climbed to the top of mount everest without special equipment and survived up there for days, you took pictures but you refused to hand them out no matter what, its your word against everyone elses.

    removes what doubt exactly? its sheppards words again everyone elses that this future even existed let alone what was even stated. and oh yeah, since that future didnt exist, how can he prove it?
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
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  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    and if you said you climbed to the top of mount everest without special equipment and survived up there for days, you took pictures but you refused to hand them out no matter what, its your word against everyone elses.

    removes what doubt exactly? its sheppards words again everyone elses that this future even existed let alone what was even stated. and oh yeah, since that future didnt exist, how can he prove it?

    Stop skimming through people's posts, for crying out loud.

    When he showed up in the future, Sheppard (from the present) asked the holographic McKay (from the distant future) if they could use the solar panels, without McKay mentioning them prior to that. This clearly indicates that Sheppard knew there would be solar panels. Since (to our knowledge) he's not clairvoyant or anything, we can assume with a 99.9999999999999999999% degree of accuracy that there were solar panels in Atlantis BEFORE he got catapulted 40 thousand years into the future.

    Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.p3OEBPD6HU3QI.jpg
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    dalolorn wrote: »
    Stop skimming through people's posts, for crying out loud.

    your struggling to justify its place, and thats the point i am getting at no matter how much 9's you put on the end of your 99%.

    its the same for voyagers year of hell, how would you know the time ship even existed, that time line was wiped out and there was nothing to prove the krenim were ever time travellers.

    its the same here, this timeline was wiped out after sheppard left, so how can i take your word for it when it never really existed?

    the element of doubt is quite large and you have not proven sufficiently that the solar panel debate on atlantis is confirmed. you need something outside of that eipisode in the canon timetime and at that point i would drop this silly arguement.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    your struggling to justify its place, and thats the point i am getting at no matter how much 9's you put on the end of your 99%.

    What I am struggling to do right now, is get it through your thick skull that Sheppard - THE PERSON FROM THE PRESENT, AKA THE CANONICAL TIMELINE - mentioned solar panels, and that he didn't look it up in the future Atlantis' database.
    its the same for voyagers year of hell, how would you know the time ship even existed, that time line was wiped out and there was nothing to prove the krenim were ever time travellers.

    I wouldn't. Like you said, there's no evidence. At best, there's the research Annorax is seen abandoning at the end of the episode, but the weapon was obviously never used. (And probably not even constructed.)
    its the same here, this timeline was wiped out after sheppard left, so how can i take your word for it when it never really existed?

    the element of doubt is quite large and you have not proven sufficiently that the solar panel debate on atlantis is confirmed. you need something outside of that eipisode in the canon timetime and at that point i would drop this silly arguement.

    Actually, you need something that existed outside of that 'non-canon timeline'. Like Sheppard's brain. Which contained knowledge about the presence of the solar panels BEFORE being sent into the future.

    Just because the statement itself was made inside an alternate timeline doesn't mean that the person making that statement didn't base it on information from his own timeline, and the sooner you manage to get that simple bit of logic to compute , the sooner this argument will finally be over.

    Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.p3OEBPD6HU3QI.jpg
  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Member Posts: 1,606 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Ha ha. This is like that argument on Lost between Miles and Hurley. :D

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_dH4xOFp9w
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    sigh.


    1. They were making a ZPM, and they said they found the place to make ZPMs, but couldn't understand the theory behind making it. It's suggested that it was a locked secret the Ancients didn't leave lying around. Mackay had to get his sister to figure it out for him.

    2. The solar panels were knowledge that the team had, BEFORE Sheppard went 40,000 years in the future, because he had the knowledge before he was sent to the future.
  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    sigh.


    1. They were making a ZPM, and they said they found the place to make ZPMs, but couldn't understand the theory behind making it. It's suggested that it was a locked secret the Ancients didn't leave lying around. Mackay had to get his sister to figure it out for him.

    Uh, no.

    Jeannie's equations were vital to creating the matter bridge used in that episode. The matter bridge was needed to draw zero point energy from a full-scale universe - something previously attempted with their own universe in 'Trinity', where the lack of control over the exotic particles released by the process initially caused the death of everyone on and near Doranda, some 10 thousand years ago, and, when McKay restarted the process, destroyed five sixths of the now-uninhabited Dorandan system.

    What Jeannie had done was give them a way of bypassing (NOT solving, or Rod wouldn't have showed up to tell them they had to stop!) the exotic particle problem by causing them to form in an alternate reality.

    For confirmation of what I just said, read the following articles:

    http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/McKay_and_Mrs._Miller (Synopsis, Plot)
    http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Project_Arcturus (Overview)
    http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Matter_bridge (Project Arcturus, located under Matter bridge projects)
    2. The solar panels were knowledge that the team had, BEFORE Sheppard went 40,000 years in the future, because he had the knowledge before he was sent to the future.

    Which is exactly what I've been trying to explain the whole time, except mirrorchaos wouldn't hear of it.

    Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.p3OEBPD6HU3QI.jpg
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    dalolorn wrote: »
    Uh, no.

    Jeannie's equations were vital to creating the matter bridge used in that episode. The matter bridge was needed to draw zero point energy from a full-scale universe - something previously attempted with their own universe in 'Trinity', where the lack of control over the exotic particles released by the process initially caused the death of everyone on and near Doranda, some 10 thousand years ago, and, when McKay restarted the process, destroyed five sixths of the now-uninhabited Dorandan system.

    What Jeannie had done was give them a way of bypassing (NOT solving, or Rod wouldn't have showed up to tell them they had to stop!) the exotic particle problem by causing them to form in an alternate reality.

    /QUOTE]


    Um no.

    The problem with making a ZPM is that you destroy the universe you're drawing the power from. Jeannie's theory was how to bridge the universes. The other universe would be destroyed.

    To be honest, I don't know why they had problems if they were at the ZPM factory. Maybe the ancients didn't provide the equations unless you solved a riddle or two.
  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Yes, Jeannie's theory was needed to create a matter bridge. Yes, the other universe would have been destroyed. No, this is not building a ZPM.

    http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Zero_Point_Module
    It's kind of like a miniature universe in a bottle.

    This already strongly suggests that the source of the ZPM's power is not equivalent to Project Arcturus. (Not to mention the fact that Arcturus was supposed to produce a much, MUCH greater power output.)
    It extracts vacuum energy from [an] artificial region of subspace-time until it reaches maximum entropy.
    I've since determined it generates its enormous power from vacuum energy derived from a self-contained region of subspace time.

    The former is a definite contradiction to Arcturus (including the iteration Jeannie's theory allowed, the one extracting energy from another universe), and the latter also suggests this.

    Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.p3OEBPD6HU3QI.jpg
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Enh... I thought that pretty much was what Arcturus was? An experiment done by the Ancients to create a better power source by using the vacuum energy in the universe instead of a bottle?
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  • corelogikcorelogik Member Posts: 1,039 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Yes. The bridge was a way to improve on the "zpm situation', however until it was perfected,... they would still need to make more ZPM's to continue running things.

    This is why Atlantis would have had a ZPM factory.
    "Go play with your DPS in the corner, I don't care how big it is." ~ Me
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  • proteusrexproteusrex Member Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    That was always my biggest question about Atlantis.

    Since Atlantis fled the plague in the Milky Way, I figure they would have factories for all sorts of things: ZPM, Drones, Jumpers, even Stargates and DHDs. Also, given how many they needed and used (first to colonize and then to defend) you'd think the factories themselves would be completely automated. It should be 'push a button, get a ZPM' with no need to 'relearn the math'.

    Also, ZPM technology itself was really really old, it wasn't a prototype technology. Even if us younger races couldn't quite figure it out, I would think that ZPM concepts would be common knowledge to the ancients in the same way that I learned how a battery or engine worked in grade school. So why was the information locked away in the ancient database?

    Though I suppose, while Atlantis was under siege from the Wraith, the ancients locked down everything to keep it out of primitive hands should the city fall. (Though that doesn't sound like them, they were too cocky for that kind of foresight).
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    proteusrex wrote: »
    That was always my biggest question about Atlantis.

    Since Atlantis fled the plague in the Milky Way, I figure they would have factories for all sorts of things: ZPM, Drones, Jumpers, even Stargates and DHDs. Also, given how many they needed and used (first to colonize and then to defend) you'd think the factories themselves would be completely automated. It should be 'push a button, get a ZPM' with no need to 'relearn the math'.

    Also, ZPM technology itself was really really old, it wasn't a prototype technology. Even if us younger races couldn't quite figure it out, I would think that ZPM concepts would be common knowledge to the ancients in the same way that I learned how a battery or engine worked in grade school. So why was the information locked away in the ancient database?

    Though I suppose, while Atlantis was under siege from the Wraith, the ancients locked down everything to keep it out of primitive hands should the city fall. (Though that doesn't sound like them, they were took cocky for that kind of foresight).
    The Ancients knew how dangerous ZPMs really were. In one ep, they mentioned that a fully charged ZPM could be detonated to make an explosion big enough to destroy half a solar system. Atlantis was powered by THREE... I imagine that they were probably one of their greatest secrets.
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  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    The ancients locked down a few tech, that is for sure.


    However they do show the factory for the stargates and that's from seeder ships in SGU.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    one interesting note from SG-1 is that the Goa'uld were never able to build a working Gate. If they decided they needed another Gate they'd swipe one from an uninhabited world.... or maybe a planet they didn't like. Apparently there are millions of them sitting around the galaxy. The Goa'uld aren't dumb. Gates seem to be very complicated devices and it seems that only the top engineers among the Ancients even understood how to make them.

    Granted... one of these top engineers managed to cobble together a partially functional gate out of things he found in Sam's basement, but that gate worked just long enough for one person to transit.
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  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    The ancients locked down a few tech, that is for sure.


    However they do show the factory for the stargates and that's from seeder ships in SGU.

    Well, that particular 'factory' was custom-made for Destiny's task. What the Ancients did with the gate networks they ACTUALLY used (as opposed to forgetting about them :P) is anyone's guess.
    one interesting note from SG-1 is that the Goa'uld were never able to build a working Gate. If they decided they needed another Gate they'd swipe one from an uninhabited world.... or maybe a planet they didn't like. Apparently there are millions of them sitting around the galaxy. The Goa'uld aren't dumb. Gates seem to be very complicated devices and it seems that only the top engineers among the Ancients even understood how to make them.

    Granted... one of these top engineers managed to cobble together a partially functional gate out of things he found in Sam's basement, but that gate worked just long enough for one person to transit.

    On the other hand, we have the Stargate on Tollana, which was built with help from the Nox. It's less a matter of 'nobody in the universe knows how to make gates' and more a matter of 'we were trying to enslave the people who DID know how to make them'.

    In fact, between all the knowledge gained in Unending, and all the baby steps taken before and after that, I'd be surprised if the Tau'ri couldn't build their own Stargates from scratch now.

    Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.p3OEBPD6HU3QI.jpg
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    dalolorn wrote: »
    Well, that particular 'factory' was custom-made for Destiny's task. What the Ancients did with the gate networks they ACTUALLY used (as opposed to forgetting about them :P) is anyone's guess.



    On the other hand, we have the Stargate on Tollana, which was built with help from the Nox. It's less a matter of 'nobody in the universe knows how to make gates' and more a matter of 'we were trying to enslave the people who DID know how to make them'.

    In fact, between all the knowledge gained in Unending, and all the baby steps taken before and after that, I'd be surprised if the Tau'ri couldn't build their own Stargates from scratch now.


    Yes I'm wondering how they expanded and upgraded a new galaxy's system. Also the Taur'i that were stranded seemed to have an understanding of the gate system in that galaxy far far far far, far far far, far away from our local cluster. They knew how to get it to work to connect to the new homeworld before it was destroyed.

    I suspect the Taur'i, post sg1 have a pretty good understanding of the gate system now.
  • ssbn655ssbn655 Member Posts: 1,894 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    And this has what to do with Star Trek?
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    ssbn655 wrote: »
    And this has what to do with Star Trek?

    ten forward doesn't have to be related to star trek... read the subforum description. As long as it doesn't have anything to do with politics, it can be discussed
  • edited May 2015
    This content has been removed.
  • proteusrexproteusrex Member Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    The Ancients knew how dangerous ZPMs really were. In one ep, they mentioned that a fully charged ZPM could be detonated to make an explosion big enough to destroy half a solar system. Atlantis was powered by THREE... I imagine that they were probably one of their greatest secrets.

    Good point, prehaps I undervalued their danger, despite the fact they were commonly used.
    That said, even if they were the ancient's biggest secrets, they didn't seem to worry too much about leaving them laying around. They left them in abandoned outposts in the Milky Way (PraclarushTaonas) and in multiple places in the Pegasus Galaxy. Heck, part of the reason the Wraith's became a threat in the first place was because they got their hands on a few of them.
    skollulfr wrote: »
    incorrectly recharging a battery can cause it to explode.
    zpms would be batteries with a singularity inside.
    would you want to risk blowing up a singularity?

    Good analogy.

    Though the Atlantis team took lots of stupid risks with stuff beyond their understanding... Reactivating Project Arcturus was probably one of the big ones. I'm sure that if they had found the ZPM or drone factory, they'd have tried to turn it on even if they weren't 100% sure how it worked, afterall, McKay thought he was as smart as an ascended race. :P

    One thing I hadn't considered. Atlantis was under seige by the Wraith for so long maybe all the factory's resources were depleted and they simply ran out of parts to make new things. Even with the gates, it would have been hard for them to resupply their factories after the Wraiths destroyed their outposts. So even if the Atlantis team found the factories, they might have had a hard time resupplying them anyway.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    proteusrex wrote: »
    Good point, prehaps I undervalued their danger, despite the fact they were commonly used.
    That said, even if they were the ancient's biggest secrets, they didn't seem to worry too much about leaving them laying around. They left them in abandoned outposts in the Milky Way (PraclarushTaonas) and in multiple places in the Pegasus Galaxy. Heck, part of the reason the Wraith's became a threat in the first place was because they got their hands on a few of them.
    Well you can't take one apart to figure out how it works, if you try it explodes.... Or if you wait for it to run out of juice, it's dead and you can't see how it works anyways.
    dalolorn wrote: »
    On the other hand, we have the Stargate on Tollana, which was built with help from the Nox. It's less a matter of 'nobody in the universe knows how to make gates' and more a matter of 'we were trying to enslave the people who DID know how to make them'.

    In fact, between all the knowledge gained in Unending, and all the baby steps taken before and after that, I'd be surprised if the Tau'ri couldn't build their own Stargates from scratch now.
    They're one of the three allies of the Ancients. It's like Thor said, there was once an alliance of four powerful races. The "Ancients", the Asgard, the Nox, and the Furlings. The Nox went into seclusion, but were just as advanced as ever. Also it turns out the Furlings had a hand in the development of the Tollan, so they probably have an inside perspective. Anyways, my point was not that NO ONE knew, but that the information was not widely shared.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I do know about the Alliance. :P

    Not sure what deaftravis05 is talking about now, though.

    Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.p3OEBPD6HU3QI.jpg
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    dalolorn wrote: »
    I do know about the Alliance. :P

    Not sure what deaftravis05 is talking about now, though.
    He's probably talking about the Tollan, but I'm not sure....
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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