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The Power of Particle Generators
bobtheyak
Member Posts: 374 Arc User
Let me start by saying I've been playing consistently since launch (several thousand active hours) and I'm experienced with all different sorts of ships and builds with all three captain careers.
Lately I've been flying escort and cruiser, both tac and eng combos, and doing pretty well DPS-wise with enough survivability to rarely die - even at higher difficulty settings (a whole 'nother can of worms). Just for funsies, I outfitted my healing sci ship with a reasonably partgen-buffed exotic damage build. It was really easy to stack exotic damage because there's a ton of gear modified by particle generators now. I had done this before but after using other ship and build combinations recently, the transition to partgen DPS was more noticeable than in the past.
It was amazing how fast everything started MELTING! I wasn't even that heavily invested into partgens and was easily destroying large groups of enemies like they were made of tissue paper while still being able to effectively crowd control them.
It's great to see sci ships finally doing damage because they were so weak for so long...but this was absolutely ridiculous. It made me realize that the "powers that be" went WAY overboard with exotic damage. It's simply too much. Not saying that partgen-influenced builds should be nerfed into the ground, but with how effective they are compared to many other build combinations they could be toned down and still be powerful.
There was mention of applying a curve to partgen stacking (distinct from straight diminishing returns) so that past a certain amount they would become less effective per skill point. Seeing as the particle manipulator adjustment didn't make much difference in damage, there should be an adjustment to the skill point modifiers themselves.
TL;DR :
Exotic damage builds finally being viable is welcome and refreshing, but it's gotten to the point where they're too powerful relative to other options. Particle Generator effectiveness and/or stacking should be toned down to make room for more variety.
I won't fuel any "Forum PvP" by posting responses. Talk amongst yourselves. Have a nice day! :cool:
Lately I've been flying escort and cruiser, both tac and eng combos, and doing pretty well DPS-wise with enough survivability to rarely die - even at higher difficulty settings (a whole 'nother can of worms). Just for funsies, I outfitted my healing sci ship with a reasonably partgen-buffed exotic damage build. It was really easy to stack exotic damage because there's a ton of gear modified by particle generators now. I had done this before but after using other ship and build combinations recently, the transition to partgen DPS was more noticeable than in the past.
It was amazing how fast everything started MELTING! I wasn't even that heavily invested into partgens and was easily destroying large groups of enemies like they were made of tissue paper while still being able to effectively crowd control them.
It's great to see sci ships finally doing damage because they were so weak for so long...but this was absolutely ridiculous. It made me realize that the "powers that be" went WAY overboard with exotic damage. It's simply too much. Not saying that partgen-influenced builds should be nerfed into the ground, but with how effective they are compared to many other build combinations they could be toned down and still be powerful.
There was mention of applying a curve to partgen stacking (distinct from straight diminishing returns) so that past a certain amount they would become less effective per skill point. Seeing as the particle manipulator adjustment didn't make much difference in damage, there should be an adjustment to the skill point modifiers themselves.
TL;DR :
Exotic damage builds finally being viable is welcome and refreshing, but it's gotten to the point where they're too powerful relative to other options. Particle Generator effectiveness and/or stacking should be toned down to make room for more variety.
I won't fuel any "Forum PvP" by posting responses. Talk amongst yourselves. Have a nice day! :cool:
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
I disagree. Science ships consistently get the short end of the stick compared to DPS build cruisers and escorts. Also, there is no reciprocity for science so the grav well cooldowns are pretty long compared to being able to chain your BFAW, CSV, SS, etc. almost continuously.
It was nice for the devs to throw science a bone, but tac, intel, command, pilot got the rest of the cow, steaks and all.
I have to agree with this, especially considering the health bars in pve, the only place these builds are an issue is pvp but with alll the tac vaping, which probably costs less anyway, it's a refreshing change to see sci getting it's share of the kills.
If a change has to be made to reduce the effectiveness it should be in the base damage, reduce the base damage and increase the skill and aux mods to compensate to taste, that way it doesn't get nerfed for sci and made WAAAAAAAAYYYYYY OP for tacs.
My biggest beef is that a tac can still out science a science career (dps wise). The science specific trait that buffs exotic helps but doesn't beat stacked alpha, fire on my mark.....
Engines could use a dps skill, how about power buff acting like override safeties without a down side....
There's no point to running anything else. Drains, CC, Strips all fall by the way side compared to PartGen builds.
I'll have to disagree here, Sci builds aren't suppose to outmatch DPS weapon builds on other ships (escorts mainly, cruisers are another story), Sci ships are meant for crowd control and other support/heal roles, making Sci ships superior to others in DPS makes the individual ship roles even fuzzier than they were.
I agree with the OP, a modest nerf would be called for for PartGens, Sci ships aren't meant to be DPS monsters.
I understand that Science is supposed to be the Utility class, with Engi being the tank and tac the dps. Only problem is the entire game is geared towards pushing max dps. Cruisers have the power and weapon banks to keep up, science has not only less weapons, but over half their abilities do no actual damage or only very small amounts as a side effect of whatever utility effect they have.
Nerfing PartGens takes away the only truly viable path to damage that science have in a game that cares about nothing but damage.
Can a partgen build get 30k dps, sure, escorts and cruisers can go well beyond that with rather a bit less effort put into the build. (ok so not that much less effort, but the key points of a high dps partgen build are very expensive and rare to obtain.)
What cryptic need to do is make utility more useful and focus less on 'moar dps' OR give the pure utility powers a damage component to that thetrer is an alternative to PartGens.
Your suggestion does nothing but further discourage build diversity. The only ones who can encourage build diversity are the Devs. They could make drainers more useful by giving us one potent enemy over mobs. They could make healers a thing by making NPCs that need to be healed as an objective.
Since PvE is the only thing left, I say nothing deserves a nerf anymore. Balance is irrelevant to NPCs, it's only relevant to the metrics. And if beamboat Scimitars can crank out 100k+ DPS, I think my measly 30k+ Partgens should be left alone.
But when a Tac Alpha boosts part gen damage skills, then they really become out of control.
Instead of nerfing partgens, nerf alpha boosting part gen skills.
I've come to the sad conclusion that Beams are essentially untouchable.
They're on the third (fourth?) iteration of FAW now and have no indications of changing it. Geko is in love with FAW and (somehow) thinks that FAW is fun, so that's that. They appear to be stacking more and more things on top of FAW, making it better than ever, instead of fixing the root issues with it.
Its bad enough we already got hit hard with a nerfbat, Science ships hardly need any more nerfs.
I worked long and hard and spent A LOT of resources to push my Intrepid to the 30k Mark dishing out damage with exotic damage powers AND beam weapons.
Its awesome, it needs no nerfs whatsoever as long as we have ships dealing 100k damage with energy weapons builds alone.
I do however think that Tac Captain powers need their damage modifiers changed to "Weapons Damage" instead of "All Damage" to keep them from making Tactical Science ships extremely overpowered.
Maybe that was we Science captains and Engineers won't keep getting royally screwed over all the time from science nerfs.
HHhhmmmm >?
What is the build you are using please and character skillpoints>? And what does it parse? Just to understand your point compared to TAC in a Battlecruiser?
Just saying, until recently I could not melt them fast... but the battle cruiser with a beam heavy build is pretty fast to melt the mobs. And with the science one, I do my own CC.
I tend to agree here and why call for nerfs at all?
Bringing in other abilities, underused by players, more in line with the stuff peeps tinkered out to be potent would accomplish the same and even encourage variety.
Action beam anybody?
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Nerf yourself! Unslot a boff, remove a console, fly a lower tier ship.
Had lost of fun with my B'Rel and eng commander with EWP III, with consoles and specced in part. gens. things melt. Did those things years ago, what is changed? I guess the player group with less interest for doing fun builds are following again some fotm ideas.
Well said! QFT!
Bingo.
The OP is completely off the rails. Just because there is something out there that can almost be a viable alternative to FAW builds, it needs to be nerfed? Seriously?
This thread is an absolutely ridiculous joke. It's baffling how in a game where Nerfs hit every single week that any player could actually ask for MORE nerfs. Especially one so unbelievably unnecessary.
Its relatively simple to make a partgen build, particulary if youre a Tactical captain.
Ill list 4 shipbuilds Ive been playing around with on my tactical captain. And how they do...
Ship 1 : Menasa - 5 outta 7 weapons Epic + Epic weapon consoles - DHCx3 DBB Crys torp - CSV + TS3 + BOL2 + Kemocite = ~32k DPS
Ship 2 : Astika - 6 outta 8 weapons Epic + Epic weapon consoles - 2x FAW 2x APB 1x Kemo3 = ~40k DPS
Ship 3 : Recluse - mk 14 torpboat + mk12 torp consoles - 1x Beta3 (+ 4 on pets) 1x TS3 1x Kemo2 = ~ 35-40k DPS
Ship 4 : Vesta - Radiation torps, 2x mk12 fleet prtg consoles, 2x mk12 regular prtg consoles - mk12 crafted particle console (no prtg mod) - various rep/set consoles with exotic or prtg bonus - Dyson deflector mk12 total prtg ~300 (plus particle manipulator) : 36k DPS
The 3 first ships are the ones Ive put a LOT of upgrades into, while the Vesta have next to no upgrades invested, in essence its cobbled together.. The Vesta easily comes close to matching the ships Ive invested the majority of my time and upgrades into..
In PvP its even worse.. Its almost invulnerable because the ships that are able to tear Down the defenses are very reluctant to blow themselves up on a PMd 300 prtg FBP3. (Theres a reason 3-4 outta 5 ships in a PvP match are science ships)
I agree with the OP, Science ships are a Little to easy to build, and does a Little too much DPS, compared to the time/funds invested into it.. Atleast on a Tactical captain.. I admit I only play Tac, so it might not be the case with Sci or Eng captains.. Maybe the solution is to remove AP Alphas effect on Science powers, as someone suggested.
Same thing with feedback pulse, don't allow it to reach more than 1.00 ratio and disable crits on that ability. Just the thing you can return back double or triple the damage you received is ridiculous, isn't it?
Science proffesion wasn't made to out-dps tacticals after all.
And Destabilizing resonance beam is fine by me, it's power is mitigated by it's long cooldown.
(I am sure all partgen warriors will hate me now, *chuckles*)
The problem is not with the PG abilities, but with the tactical abilities. Attack pattern alpha, fire on my mark, go down fighting and so forth boost weapons and debuff opponents for ALL damage instead of "only" weapon damage.
With my DR kdf-rom flying a faeth with absolutely NO PG on the ship itself i can toss out a pretty mean TR1 when boosted by above powers.
On my fed engineer i have pushed my Dauntless with a partgen build (mk xiv embassy consoles + crafted consoles) to an average between 35-40k and that cost me a proverbial arm and legg.
On my KDF-Rom tac i was astonished that a throw together build was able to parse 30k in a faeth. That was a build thrown together from episode gear.
That is the difference. As usual the tactical abilities boost things to almost absurd levels.
Neither takes more skill.
Neither is harder to build than the other.
Neither is really that much more expensive than the other.
STO players. Really...
I was bored and decided to throw together a build on Willard's Sarr Theln...
(Reverse) Tractor Beam Repulsor III: 13.6% of my DPS
Antiproton Beam Array - Fire at Will III: 13.8% of my DPS
Pets (Sum)*: 27.9% of my DPS
* Elite Swarmers, Elite Scorpions, Nimbus Pirate, & Photonic Fleet
* * * * *
Avg / Max
Pets (Sum): 689 / 34,991
AP FAW3: 2,219/ 8,657
RTBR3: 9,992 / 17,372
* * * * *
[Pla]plosion was 7.9%, 11,285 / 26,888
PEP's Poo was 7.4%, 3,261 / 7,926
GW1 was 2.5%, 1,791 / 7,112
I guess this needs to be highlighted, to ensure any nerfs are directed at the wrong place.
That said... Escort level damage doesn't go down just because a Science Captain subnukes defensive buffs away, so I think one has to be careful here. If my Science Captains abilities fully help my Escort build, then Tac abilities need to fully help Science Vessel builds.
But maybe it points out that tac buffs in general are too strong? If a Science Captain has less impact in a Science vessel than a Tactical Captain, than somethnig isn't right - if a Science Captain in an Escort has less impact than a Tactical Captain in an Escort, we may have a problem with the Tactical Captain itself. If not... Then it gets complicated.
There are three players doing over 100k...three of them...just 3.
#1
FPER
Phaser DBB FAW II: 14.8%
Phaser DBB FAW III: 13.5%
Phaser Array FAW II: 2.7%
Phaser Array FAW III: 2.5%
~33.5% from FAW2/3
40,422.481 of 120,173.27 DPS from FAW
#2
Scimitar
AP DBB FAW III: 44.6%
AP Array FAW III: 10.3%
~54.9% from FAW3
62,299.626 of 113,313.52 DPS from FAW
#3
Scimitar
AP Array FAW III: 56.8%
Er, 56.8% from FAW3
59,275.691 of 104,176.55 DPS from FAW
What about the other ~50 %?
If you've been playing for years you know there were times everyone was using torpedo-boats . There was also a time when it was almost mandatory to use cannon-builds . That's just how MMO's work . Asking for nerfs isn't wise because those always tend to tackle the wrong stuff anyway .
favorite quote ( and one which we should all take to heart ):
AHoD helps with that, just slot a couple of tac skills you can spam and enjoy the CDR
Heh, full breakdown...
Pets (Sum): 27.885%
Antiproton Beam Array - FAW3: 13.823%
Tractor Beam Repulsor III: 13.637%
Antiproton Array: 10.538%
Plasma Explosion: 7.918%
Plasma Particle Emission: 7.398%
Plasma Torpedo - Heavy I: 4.943%
Cutting Beam: 3.456%
Plasma Torpedo - Spread II: 2.584%
Gravity Well I: 2.497%
Refracting Tetryon Cascade: 2.157%
Particle Emission Plasma Torpedo: 1.21%
Tachyon Charges: 0.903%
Plasma Fire (From Torpedo): 0.451%
Particle Emission Plasma Torpedo - Burn: 0.438%
Plasma Torpedo - Heavy I - Burn: 0.162%
...keeping in mind it's me and I suck, so it was only ~25.1k total.
Mainly normal weapon fire, plasma explosion (from the embassy consoles) and pets (in case of the FPER the Nadeon console which also counts as pet damage). Probably also some damage from TBR with the reverse doff in there.
Also FAW is not doing that damage on it own. That is FAW buffed by attack patterns, emergency power to weapons, tactical fleet, go down fighting and some other stuff.
Edit: Misread your post. Thought you were asking about the 3 players above 100k DPS.
And btw, thx for that run earlier, Virus. Your healing saved my rear end at least once. So much for healing not being usefull. Improved my personal best from 38k to 40k in that run.:)
Hrmm, I did some shield healing to you...heh, that was one of my more stingy healing endeavors. Not sure if the shield healing came from the Improved Tachyon Beam or the...nope, must have been the Improved Tachyon Beam...heh.
You did more healing to me than I did to you.
44885 shield to you, 12499 hull and 40266 shield from you.
edit: It was a fun run, I fat-fingered a GW on the the Left Trans there and didn't give it a second thought cause you were just shredding it.
edit2: Does kind of make me sad, though, lol...cause that run took my personal best from 22k to 25k. It was just a quick throw together build where I didn't expect much. The 22k before that...was a damage in testing run. If I actually try to DPS...I can't. /facepalm
edit3: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=sarrwhee25_5343