Because these are a 3-pack of ships, they're Fleet quality out of the box. The Command ships were the same way, as were the Odyssey, Vesta, Kumari, Bortasqu, and Scimitar when those were all released. The Mat'ha is a normal T6 ships that can be upgraded to Fleet but doesn't come that way straight away, hence one less console slot and lower shield mod. A more apples-to-apples comparison would be to compare the stats between the Fleet Mat'ha vs the engie variant of these.
Ah, you're right I forgot that about bundle ships. Makes sense now, thanks for the info . I really think I may buy it indeed then. Although I much prefer my Mat'ha's looks I want to fly my raptor pilot-style.
Outside the Romulans and KDF Battlecruisers, anything with any sort of Cloaking Device, whether it's built in like KDF ships or requiring a console, like the Defiant, has a Shield Mod Penalty.
Or in the case of the Birds of Prey, they pay for their Battlecloaks with the lightest hulls possible in the game. Only things lighter in hull are Shuttles. And this is on top of the Shield Mod penalty.
Let's take a few old school examples.
T5 Fleet Norgh BOP (Battle Cloak): Hull 27k, .88 Shield Mod
T5 Fleet Qin Raptor (Standard Cloak: Hull 36k , .92 Shield Mod
T5 Fleet Defiant (Standard Cloak/Console): Hull 33k, .99 Shield Mod
- The Defiant's shield mod got tweaked up some time ago, used to be there with KDF Raptors. Can't recall how far back it got sent up.
Then 3 Warbirds:
T5 Fleet T'Varo (Romulan Enhanced Battle Cloak): Hull 29k, .99 Shield Mod
T5 Fleet Mogai (Romulan Battle Cloak): Hull 36k, 1.1 Shield Mod
T5 Fleet Dhelan (Romulan Battle Cloak): Hull 34k, 1.0 Shield Mod
I haven't even touched the T6 stuff for examples yet
And of course, the KDF Battle Cloak =/= Romulan Battle Cloak
KDF Enhanced Battle Cloak =/= Romulan Enhanced Battle Cloak
Romulan Warbirds pay very little for their raw offensive, stealth capability. Why it's like that are due to 2 general benefits: Warbirds that pay no penalty for their Cloaks and capability. Their completely overpowered Captain & BOFF Traits that synergize with Warbirds and Cloaking technology/warfare. Their Singularity Abilities also give that extra bit of "Save me now" to offset their lower Subsystem Power (which itself can also be negated with Romulan Engineers and endgame builds).
Sorry but as per as normal you looking at it with rose colored glass's for everyone but the KDF...
You cant use raptors vs the defiant as they are different class's of ships as far as hull and shields. also you totally ignored the fact the defiant is giving up a console slot.
BOPs get weakest shield/hull not do to the battle cloak.. but do to the fact they are 100% universal boffs on those ships allowing more customizations on skills then any.. that's ANY other ship in the game.
This thread was also about pilot ships..
So looking at KDF vs Romulan as these ships are the same class.. the Romulans do "pay" for there battle cloaks.
Romulans ships have always given up front end fire power for escape ability's. That's there "flavor" They do pay for that flavor. Now you may say they don't pay enough but that's a totally different debate.
Complaining that the "KDF" in regards to pilot ships are being gimped is kind of pathetic. As the weakest as far as hull and shields goes to the Romulan ship.
So yes in the end the KDF and Romulans both are "taxed" for there cloaks.. you may not agree that the tax's are fair.. but they both pay for them in ships stats..
Fact is that KDF finaly gets a 5 tac 5 forward weapons escort. Something they should of had a while ago.. yet there is complaining... and people wonder why the KDF hardly get new toys. On top of that..Id say the KDF win also in looks..I mean hey you looked at that Romulan eng ship.. its rather bad looking
Sorry but as per as normal you looking at it with rose colored glass's for everyone but the KDF...
You cant use raptors vs the defiant as they are different class's of ships as far as hull and shields. also you totally ignored the fact the defiant is giving up a console slot.
BOPs get weakest shield/hull not do to the battle cloak.. but do to the fact they are 100% universal boffs on those ships allowing more customizations on skills then any.. that's ANY other ship in the game.
This thread was also about pilot ships..
So looking at KDF vs Romulan as these ships are the same class.. the Romulans do "pay" for there battle cloaks.
Romulans ships have always given up front end fire power for escape ability's. That's there "flavor" They do pay for that flavor. Now you may say they don't pay enough but that's a totally different debate.
Complaining that the "KDF" in regards to pilot ships are being gimped is kind of pathetic. As the weakest as far as hull and shields goes to the Romulan ship.
So yes in the end the KDF and Romulans both are "taxed" for there cloaks.. you may not agree that the tax's are fair.. but they both pay for them in ships stats..
Fact is that KDF finaly gets a 5 tac 5 forward weapons escort. Something they should of had a while ago.. yet there is complaining... and people wonder why the KDF hardly get new toys. On top of that..Id say the KDF win also in looks..I mean hey you looked at that Romulan eng ship.. its rather bad looking
What ARE the defining characteristics of an Escort? You know that right?
I can use Raptors and Defiants together for comparison because they are ESCORTS. They are not Birds of Prey. They are not Raiders. They are not Cruisers. They are not Science Vessels. They are not Carriers. They are ESCORTS. Very differently flavored Escorts, but Escorts nonetheless.
BOPs already pay for their All Universal BOFF station setup by having -1 BOFF skill count. Check it yourself on the shipyards or on STOwiki. A T5 BOP has 11 BOFF skills vs 12 of all other T5 ships. The Fleet Norgh is the sole BOP exception. It has a full 12 skill count but pays for it with -1 Console Slot and sits at 9 at T5, and a whopping 10 at T5U.
For your statement of:
"Romulans ships have always given up front end fire power for escape ability's. That's there "flavor" They do pay for that flavor," I'm curious where you get that info from.
For the ENG versions of the Pilot Ships (Fed, KDF, Rom), for example:
- They all have the same BOFF layouts.
- They all have the same Weapons layout (5/2)
- They all have the same Console layout (5/4/2)
- They all have the same Device Slots
- They all have the same Impulse Mod/Turn Rate/Inertia Rating
- They all have the same Bonus Power figures
- They all can use Dual/Dual Heavy Cannons
- They all have offense oriented 1-4 trait packages (Roms differ with singularity versions)
- They all can use Pilot Maneuvers
Again, going to your statement, where exactly do you see "Romulan ships have always given up front end firepower for escape ability's"? Where did you get your facts? They are not giving anything up.
What ARE the defining characteristics of an Escort? You know that right?
I can use Raptors and Defiants together for comparison because they are ESCORTS. They are not Birds of Prey. They are not Raiders. They are not Cruisers. They are not Science Vessels. They are not Carriers. They are ESCORTS. Very differently flavored Escorts, but Escorts nonetheless.
BOPs already pay for their All Universal BOFF station setup by having -1 BOFF skill count. Check it yourself on the shipyards or on STOwiki. A T5 BOP has 11 BOFF skills vs 12 of all other T5 ships. The Fleet Norgh is the sole BOP exception. It has a full 12 skill count but pays for it with -1 Console Slot and sits at 9 at T5, and a whopping 10 at T5U.
For your statement of:
"Romulans ships have always given up front end fire power for escape ability's. That's there "flavor" They do pay for that flavor," I'm curious where you get that info from.
For the ENG versions of the Pilot Ships (Fed, KDF, Rom), for example:
- They all have the same BOFF layouts.
- They all have the same Weapons layout (5/2)
- They all have the same Console layout (5/4/2)
- They all have the same Device Slots
- They all have the same Impulse Mod/Turn Rate/Inertia Rating
- They all have the same Bonus Power figures
- They all can use Dual/Dual Heavy Cannons
- They all have offense oriented 1-4 trait packages (Roms differ with singularity versions)
- They all can use Pilot Maneuvers
Again, going to your statement, where exactly do you see "Romulan ships have always given up front end firepower for escape ability's"? Where did you get your facts? They are not giving anything up.
Do you play Romulans? They start out at -40 power on all subsytems.. so you have to use something to counter that be it batteries or skills.. so they have to use that at the start of the fight to get up to even close to what a warp core ship will have coming out of the gate... Romulans pay for the battle cloak by starting with -40 power to all subsystems and weaker hulls... so..
My facts are solid.. you are beyond bias... and a tad blind as rom ship has less hull...
Oh and FYI Raptors are there own class... they are not "escorts"
Go to STO academy and look up KDF escorts.. you wont find any.
Do they fill the same role as a federation escort.. sure but they are different that's why you cant compare.
That's like trying to argue that Battle Cruisers are the same as Cruisers.
Man, the Romulans threw balance under the bus in so many different ways. Like their hulls aren't weaker despite everything having Battle Cloak. Lots of Rom players out there have no idea how nice the Silver Platter was handed to them by Cryptic.
That is funny because one issue regarding that besides the xp grindfest I abhor lol. The romulans having such raw power with being able to extend their cloak ambush duration to the point they can stay decloaked for a minute before they really need to recloak to get it back. Its that issue alone that kinda makes go bleh meh whatever when something new comes out because its great we are finally getting things but with the base problem for the KDF unchecked those silver spoon romulans are really killing the enjoyment of the game.
Do you play Romulans? They start out at -40 power on all subsytems.. so you have to use something to counter that be it batteries or skills.. so they have to use that at the start of the fight to get up to even close to what a warp core ship will have coming out of the gate... Romulans pay for the battle cloak by starting with -40 power to all subsystems and weaker hulls... so..
My facts are solid.. you are beyond bias... and a tad blind as rom ship has less hull...
Oh and FYI Raptors are there own class... they are not "escorts"
Go to STO academy and look up KDF escorts.. you wont find any.
Do they fill the same role as a federation escort.. sure but they are different that's why you cant compare.
That's like trying to argue that Battle Cruisers are the same as Cruisers.
You really haven't played with the game's different factions extensively, haven't you? :rolleyes:
Do you know what characteristics make an Escort? Do I really need to explain that to you, someone that's been around this game as long as you?
Ships with Commander Tactical Stations.
Do you know what constitutes a Cruiser? I'll explain that to you, too.
Ships with Commander Engineering Stations.
Are we in the Academy Subforums? Why am I explaining Star Trek Online 101 Fundamentals to you as if you're a noob?
Do you know what constitutes a Science Vessel? I'll explain that to you, also.
Ships with Commander Science Stations.
Please tell me you're not one of those guys that sees the word "Battleship" or "Dreadnought" and expect grand stats on that ship. Just because someone in Cryptic decided to slap a name on it. Just like the Galaxy-X "Dreadnought?" Cryptic's choice of names is meaningless. The STATS do not lie and tell everything.
So yes, Escorts as Escorts, regardless of the flavor.
-40 power? LOL, the only Rom players that have to worry about that are newbies that haven't gotten any of the endgame gear. Are you not aware of all the different means of attaining extra Subsystem Power these days? This isn't 2010. There are tons of consoles that grant extra power. There are Deflectors, Engines, Shields that grant extra power. There are bonuses that grant extra power. There are devices that can be used to surge your power to hit the AMP core wickets.
Simply put, once a Romulan player starts piling up his endgame gear, the Subsystem Power issue is mitigated.
Also, if the Rom is an Engineer, he has zero Subsystem Power issues at all once he gets all his basic Engineer Captain Traits. None!
Let's widen this up some more. Let's talk about the other thing that makes the Romulans so OP in this game. I already told you about how warbirds have no true design compromises. I also told you elsewhere about the overpowered Romulan Republic BOFF & Captain Traits.
Captain & BOFF: Romulan Operative.
+ Crit Hit
+ Crit Severity
Reduction in Cloak Cooldown Timer
BOFF Only: Subterfuge
+ Bonus Defense
+ Ambush/Decloak Damage Mod
+ Stealth (pointless for PVE)
Between the Romulan Republic Captain and the BOFFs, a full crew of these highly beneficial traits can be loaded up onto a build. Except for +Stealth and Infiltrator Ambush timer mod, they ALL STACK. Superior Romulan Operative is a massive benefit that nothing in the KDF nor Fed factions have. Not on the scale that Roms can have. Non-Roms can only get SRO BOFFs for Tactical Stations. 2 typically, 3 at the very best. In contrast, Roms can have a full 5 Active BOFF SRO Crew. Full SRO Crew is a BIG DEAL in STO and a massive benefit that cannot be replicated anywhere but the Rom Republic.
I also mentioned Infiltrator. The same quality of this trait does not stack. Different quality of this trait DOES stack. So a Reman Captain simply needs 1 BOFF somewhere with Superior Infiltrator with the rest having SRO. If that player has the Delta Rising Pack, they get a Reman BOFF with Superior Infiltrator AND Superior Romulan Operative (WTFMATE).
My Romulan Liberated Borg Engineer's current BOFF setup on his Command FDC, from BOFF Traits alone gets:
+200 Stealth
+15.1% Bonus Defense
4 active BOFFs with SRO providing:
+8% Crit Hit
+20% Crit Severity
His Ambush/Decloak damage modifier is at +45% Bonus Damage.
- The Ambush bonus lasts 15 seconds
- The Cloak can has a cooldown of 12 seconds
*** Yes, the bonus lasts LONGER than the Cooldown.
You know what else is funny? These Bonuses SUCK. I made the mistake of choosing a Romulan Liberated Borg when LOR hit as my first Republic Character. Liberated Borg Captains do not have access to Romulan Operative, Subterfuge, nor Infiltrator. My Romulan TAC however flies all the time with Operative, so that's extra +Crit hit, +Crit Severity, and even more cloak cooldown reduction. I can get it down to as little as 9 seconds.
And you know what makes this better?
- My Reman Science Captain, due to her Standard Infiltrator Trait + Superior Infiltrator from a Reman BOFF can make the Ambush bonus last 23 seconds. TWENTY-THREE damn seconds of +45% Bonus Damage. The Bonus lasts twice as long as the Cloak's Cooldown timer.
The Cloaks provide Romulans with a Free all-purpose damage bonus. It's like a free Attack Pattern that can be made to last almost as long as Attack Pattern Alpha III.
In contrast, the best a KDF Captain can do on a Bird of Prey is +25% Ambush/Decloak Bonus that lasts 5 seconds tops. The lowest I have ever been able to reduce the Cloak Cooldown was about 16 seconds.
Yeah. Clearly, you have absolutely NO IDEA what you're talking about between the factions :rolleyes:
well...before all the PvP just...stopped...I used to enjoy killing them in-game, because Romulan is 'easy button', it's kind of like counting coup on Bugships used to be-the users were often so overconfident because of the OPness of their EPeenships, that taking them down with a humble Hegh'ta or Norgh was a genuine treat for me.
Yeah it was funny especially before they buff to the norgh when it had same hull amount as a shuttle lol. People would send me tells about oh how they almost had me and I was like yeah almost did 5k damage to me. Sad part was i was just watching tv while hitting tactical team over and over again. Oh and the hegh'ta our monument to the days before we thought we couldn't be screwed over in the KDF even more back when it was better of a ship than the b'rel rofl. Its sad its so down in the gutter of development now they didn't even do anything to make a T5U out of it lol.
I am sure though they will come thru for us they will make a KDF bird of prey pack with 20 different kinds of roles/bops that come in a pack for 100k zen. The first one will be the T6 one we have always wanted it will have 1 tactical slot, 5 science, and 5 engineering. It will have a tactical console that cannot be removed that will do as much damage as a romulan ship can for any type of damage. So then ppl can complain about a shield modifier when a true bop player would be like shields what are those?
I didn't have a lot of time yesterday but I played a few games in my new Kortar. I actually like this ship. I would have a hard time saying which one I like better between my MaHta and my Kortar.
I noticed only 2 "problems". 1) I don't have a Tactical/Pilot officer. Mine are either Engineer or Science so I could not test the pilot powers. It would be nice if the pilot seasts were universal.
2) There appears to be some problem with the zoom option while in a mission map: very small or very large. It is a bit annoying.
You really haven't played with the game's different factions extensively, haven't you? :rolleyes:
Do you know what characteristics make an Escort? Do I really need to explain that to you, someone that's been around this game as long as you?
Ships with Commander Tactical Stations.
Do you know what constitutes a Cruiser? I'll explain that to you, too.
Ships with Commander Engineering Stations.
Are we in the Academy Subforums? Why am I explaining Star Trek Online 101 Fundamentals to you as if you're a noob?
Do you know what constitutes a Science Vessel? I'll explain that to you, also.
Ships with Commander Science Stations.
Please tell me you're not one of those guys that sees the word "Battleship" or "Dreadnought" and expect grand stats on that ship. Just because someone in Cryptic decided to slap a name on it. Just like the Galaxy-X "Dreadnought?" Cryptic's choice of names is meaningless. The STATS do not lie and tell everything.
So yes, Escorts as Escorts, regardless of the flavor.
-40 power? LOL, the only Rom players that have to worry about that are newbies that haven't gotten any of the endgame gear. Are you not aware of all the different means of attaining extra Subsystem Power these days? This isn't 2010. There are tons of consoles that grant extra power. There are Deflectors, Engines, Shields that grant extra power. There are bonuses that grant extra power. There are devices that can be used to surge your power to hit the AMP core wickets.
Simply put, once a Romulan player starts piling up his endgame gear, the Subsystem Power issue is mitigated.
Also, if the Rom is an Engineer, he has zero Subsystem Power issues at all once he gets all his basic Engineer Captain Traits. None!
Let's widen this up some more. Let's talk about the other thing that makes the Romulans so OP in this game. I already told you about how warbirds have no true design compromises. I also told you elsewhere about the overpowered Romulan Republic BOFF & Captain Traits.
Captain & BOFF: Romulan Operative.
+ Crit Hit
+ Crit Severity
Reduction in Cloak Cooldown Timer
BOFF Only: Subterfuge
+ Bonus Defense
+ Ambush/Decloak Damage Mod
+ Stealth (pointless for PVE)
Between the Romulan Republic Captain and the BOFFs, a full crew of these highly beneficial traits can be loaded up onto a build. Except for +Stealth and Infiltrator Ambush timer mod, they ALL STACK. Superior Romulan Operative is a massive benefit that nothing in the KDF nor Fed factions have. Not on the scale that Roms can have. Non-Roms can only get SRO BOFFs for Tactical Stations. 2 typically, 3 at the very best. In contrast, Roms can have a full 5 Active BOFF SRO Crew. Full SRO Crew is a BIG DEAL in STO and a massive benefit that cannot be replicated anywhere but the Rom Republic.
I also mentioned Infiltrator. The same quality of this trait does not stack. Different quality of this trait DOES stack. So a Reman Captain simply needs 1 BOFF somewhere with Superior Infiltrator with the rest having SRO. If that player has the Delta Rising Pack, they get a Reman BOFF with Superior Infiltrator AND Superior Romulan Operative (WTFMATE).
My Romulan Liberated Borg Engineer's current BOFF setup on his Command FDC, from BOFF Traits alone gets:
+200 Stealth
+15.1% Bonus Defense
4 active BOFFs with SRO providing:
+8% Crit Hit
+20% Crit Severity
His Ambush/Decloak damage modifier is at +45% Bonus Damage.
- The Ambush bonus lasts 15 seconds
- The Cloak can has a cooldown of 12 seconds
*** Yes, the bonus lasts LONGER than the Cooldown.
You know what else is funny? These Bonuses SUCK. I made the mistake of choosing a Romulan Liberated Borg when LOR hit as my first Republic Character. Liberated Borg Captains do not have access to Romulan Operative, Subterfuge, nor Infiltrator. My Romulan TAC however flies all the time with Operative, so that's extra +Crit hit, +Crit Severity, and even more cloak cooldown reduction. I can get it down to as little as 9 seconds.
And you know what makes this better?
- My Reman Science Captain, due to her Standard Infiltrator Trait + Superior Infiltrator from a Reman BOFF can make the Ambush bonus last 23 seconds. TWENTY-THREE damn seconds of +45% Bonus Damage. The Bonus lasts twice as long as the Cloak's Cooldown timer.
The Cloaks provide Romulans with a Free all-purpose damage bonus. It's like a free Attack Pattern that can be made to last almost as long as Attack Pattern Alpha III.
In contrast, the best a KDF Captain can do on a Bird of Prey is +25% Ambush/Decloak Bonus that lasts 5 seconds tops. The lowest I have ever been able to reduce the Cloak Cooldown was about 16 seconds.
Yeah. Clearly, you have absolutely NO IDEA what you're talking about between the factions :rolleyes:
You are beyond bias when it comes to the KDF.. no I'm not a noob and I have 10 toons spread across all factions 4 fed, 3 romulan, 3 kdf.
We are taking ships not boffs.. you cant win one argument so you bring up boffs as some how that has to do with ships stats.
As pilot ships are one of the few ships that mirror each other for the same class.. the Romulans do pay for there battle cloaks just as the KDF pay for there standard cloaks.
AS I stated but your in ability to comprehended is that you may feel that the stat tax for a battle cloak is not enough.. but that's a different argument.
Also in end game gear are you trying to argue that KDF players are so pathetic that can't over come a slight shield difference compared to federation ships in the same class? If you are.. just wow.
So here we go again.. you cant win the ship for ship difference in the same class debate.. that you have to bring up Boffs and ships that are not even in class that you can compare vs another class.. such as Bop's that no one else has.. a battle cloaking full universal boff lay out.
So until you can keep on the subject of same class of ship there is no point even debating this with you as you. Maybe the reason KDF keeps getting no content is players like your self that just have to complain about everything.
If you want whine about overpowered boffs then go start a thread on it this was about pilot ships and comparing them to each other.
These Pilot ships are great ships and the KDF are not being gimped or shafted in anyway. They look great and a 5/2 5 tac console ship has been wanted for a long time. No one should be complaining about these ships.
You are beyond bias when it comes to the KDF.. no I'm not a noob and I have 10 toons spread across all factions 4 fed, 3 romulan, 3 kdf.
We are taking ships not boffs.. you cant win one argument so you bring up boffs as some how that has to do with ships stats.
As pilot ships are one of the few ships that mirror each other for the same class.. the Romulans do pay for there battle cloaks just as the KDF pay for there standard cloaks.
AS I stated but your in ability to comprehended is that you may feel that the stat tax for a battle cloak is not enough.. but that's a different argument.
Also in end game gear are you trying to argue that KDF players are so pathetic that can't over come a slight shield difference compared to federation ships in the same class? If you are.. just wow.
So here we go again.. you cant win the ship for ship difference in the same class debate.. that you have to bring up Boffs and ships that are not even in class that you can compare vs another class.. such as Bop's that no one else has.. a battle cloaking full universal boff lay out.
So until you can keep on the subject of same class of ship there is no point even debating this with you as you. Maybe the reason KDF keeps getting no content is players like your self that just have to complain about everything.
If you want whine about overpowered boffs then go start a thread on it this was about pilot ships and comparing them to each other.
These Pilot ships are great ships and the KDF are not being gimped or shafted in anyway. They look great and a 5/2 5 tac console ship has been wanted for a long time. No one should be complaining about these ships.
Nothing in this game is isolated on its own. Does the word "Synergy" hold any meaning? I expect Veteran Players to be able to see how all this stuff comes together. Even if the ships were the exact same, i.e. a Lobi/Event/Promo Box ship, they interact very differently from the game. Feds will take the ship and can apply their fabulous, faction-specific Starship Traits to them. KDF & Roms don't have that same level of great Starship Traits. But the Roms will at least take that exact same ship and make it a monster with their faction-unique, very powerful BOFFs & Trait combos.
Synergy.
And the ship-to-ship comparison still stands. When you throw in the rest of the game, it gets even more laughable. If you don't see how all this comes together and ignore the facts and go on with drivel, then by all means, carry on.
I didn't have a lot of time yesterday but I played a few games in my new Kortar. I actually like this ship. I would have a hard time saying which one I like better between my MaHta and my Kortar.
I noticed only 2 "problems". 1) I don't have a Tactical/Pilot officer. Mine are either Engineer or Science so I could not test the pilot powers. It would be nice if the pilot seasts were universal.
2) There appears to be some problem with the zoom option while in a mission map: very small or very large. It is a bit annoying.
But other than that I love this new Raptor.
Playing one of the new Featured Episodes the first time will get you 1 character bound Pilot Specialization PADD. I forgot which one but it's safe to do this on a TAC BOFF so you can get more out of the Pilot Ships. It's a 1 time reward kind of deal for each character. If you want more of these Pilot Spec PADDs, either you can make them on your own if you have progressed far enough in Pilot Spec or get them off exchange. But I wouldn't be surprised if they were expensive right now. Or you can get a friend to make the PADD for you.
Nothing in this game is isolated on its own. Does the word "Synergy" hold any meaning? I expect Veteran Players to be able to see how all this stuff comes together. Even if the ships were the exact same, i.e. a Lobi/Event/Promo Box ship, they interact very differently from the game. Feds will take the ship and can apply their fabulous, faction-specific Starship Traits to them. KDF & Roms don't have that same level of great Starship Traits. But the Roms will at least take that exact same ship and make it a monster with their faction-unique, very powerful BOFFs & Trait combos.
Synergy.
And the ship-to-ship comparison still stands. When you throw in the rest of the game, it gets even more laughable. If you don't see how all this comes together and ignore the facts and go on with drivel, then by all means, carry on.
Sorry but I'm calling your BS here...
For one you tried to separate the fact that the Bop's low shields and hull had nothing to do with the fact they have all universal boffs.. you tried to separate it by saying that it was that they gave up a console.. so where is your synergy there?
You ignored the fact that defiant gave up a console for a basic cloak. You separated that when comparing stats.
Then you get called out on that you bring up Boffs....
No Sir you are being a hypocrite.
You are totally bias.
We were comparing only pilot ships that's what this thread was about.
Facts are that Romulans do pay for there battle cloak just as the KDF pays for there basic cloak. You can cry and whine that its not fair. In the end the facts are that ships that have cloaks pay for then we reduced stats else were on the ship. All other out side considerations are mute. This was a ship for ship comparison. Not a whine thread on who has better boffs, and while I agree that Romulans do have the best boffs in the game for DPS (as the feds have the best for tanking) that has nothing to do with ship stats and the "tax" for having a integrated cloak.
The comment that I replied to was that a person said that the Romulans do not pay a "tax" for there cloaks.. this is a out right false statement. You then come in trying to defend that statement with a bunch of fluff that has nothing to do with the FACT that Romulan ships do pay for those battle cloaks in ships states having weaker shields compared to feds, weaker hulls compared to feds and KDF, and lower starting system power compared to both feds and kdf. You can cry about boffs all you want but that's not what the discussion was about.
Ships pay for there integrated cloak based on the SHIP and its STATS and BOFF LAYOUTS... not based on claimed synergy with boffs or consoles that you may put in to those ships.
Comments
Ah, you're right I forgot that about bundle ships. Makes sense now, thanks for the info
Sorry but as per as normal you looking at it with rose colored glass's for everyone but the KDF...
You cant use raptors vs the defiant as they are different class's of ships as far as hull and shields. also you totally ignored the fact the defiant is giving up a console slot.
BOPs get weakest shield/hull not do to the battle cloak.. but do to the fact they are 100% universal boffs on those ships allowing more customizations on skills then any.. that's ANY other ship in the game.
This thread was also about pilot ships..
So looking at KDF vs Romulan as these ships are the same class.. the Romulans do "pay" for there battle cloaks.
Romulans ships have always given up front end fire power for escape ability's. That's there "flavor" They do pay for that flavor. Now you may say they don't pay enough but that's a totally different debate.
Complaining that the "KDF" in regards to pilot ships are being gimped is kind of pathetic. As the weakest as far as hull and shields goes to the Romulan ship.
So yes in the end the KDF and Romulans both are "taxed" for there cloaks.. you may not agree that the tax's are fair.. but they both pay for them in ships stats..
Fact is that KDF finaly gets a 5 tac 5 forward weapons escort. Something they should of had a while ago.. yet there is complaining... and people wonder why the KDF hardly get new toys. On top of that..Id say the KDF win also in looks..I mean hey you looked at that Romulan eng ship.. its rather bad looking
What ARE the defining characteristics of an Escort? You know that right?
I can use Raptors and Defiants together for comparison because they are ESCORTS. They are not Birds of Prey. They are not Raiders. They are not Cruisers. They are not Science Vessels. They are not Carriers. They are ESCORTS. Very differently flavored Escorts, but Escorts nonetheless.
BOPs already pay for their All Universal BOFF station setup by having -1 BOFF skill count. Check it yourself on the shipyards or on STOwiki. A T5 BOP has 11 BOFF skills vs 12 of all other T5 ships. The Fleet Norgh is the sole BOP exception. It has a full 12 skill count but pays for it with -1 Console Slot and sits at 9 at T5, and a whopping 10 at T5U.
For your statement of:
"Romulans ships have always given up front end fire power for escape ability's. That's there "flavor" They do pay for that flavor," I'm curious where you get that info from.
For the ENG versions of the Pilot Ships (Fed, KDF, Rom), for example:
- They all have the same BOFF layouts.
- They all have the same Weapons layout (5/2)
- They all have the same Console layout (5/4/2)
- They all have the same Device Slots
- They all have the same Impulse Mod/Turn Rate/Inertia Rating
- They all have the same Bonus Power figures
- They all can use Dual/Dual Heavy Cannons
- They all have offense oriented 1-4 trait packages (Roms differ with singularity versions)
- They all can use Pilot Maneuvers
Hull & Shields:
Fed ENG: 33,465 hull / 1.05 shield - No Cloak
KDF ENG: 36,225 hull / .97 shield - Standard Cloak
Rom ENG: 33,465 hull / .97 shield - Romulan Battle Cloak
Again, going to your statement, where exactly do you see "Romulan ships have always given up front end firepower for escape ability's"? Where did you get your facts? They are not giving anything up.
Do you play Romulans? They start out at -40 power on all subsytems.. so you have to use something to counter that be it batteries or skills.. so they have to use that at the start of the fight to get up to even close to what a warp core ship will have coming out of the gate... Romulans pay for the battle cloak by starting with -40 power to all subsystems and weaker hulls... so..
My facts are solid.. you are beyond bias... and a tad blind as rom ship has less hull...
Oh and FYI Raptors are there own class... they are not "escorts"
Go to STO academy and look up KDF escorts.. you wont find any.
Do they fill the same role as a federation escort.. sure but they are different that's why you cant compare.
That's like trying to argue that Battle Cruisers are the same as Cruisers.
That is funny because one issue regarding that besides the xp grindfest I abhor lol. The romulans having such raw power with being able to extend their cloak ambush duration to the point they can stay decloaked for a minute before they really need to recloak to get it back. Its that issue alone that kinda makes go bleh meh whatever when something new comes out because its great we are finally getting things but with the base problem for the KDF unchecked those silver spoon romulans are really killing the enjoyment of the game.
You really haven't played with the game's different factions extensively, haven't you? :rolleyes:
Do you know what characteristics make an Escort? Do I really need to explain that to you, someone that's been around this game as long as you?
Ships with Commander Tactical Stations.
Do you know what constitutes a Cruiser? I'll explain that to you, too.
Ships with Commander Engineering Stations.
Are we in the Academy Subforums? Why am I explaining Star Trek Online 101 Fundamentals to you as if you're a noob?
Do you know what constitutes a Science Vessel? I'll explain that to you, also.
Ships with Commander Science Stations.
Please tell me you're not one of those guys that sees the word "Battleship" or "Dreadnought" and expect grand stats on that ship. Just because someone in Cryptic decided to slap a name on it. Just like the Galaxy-X "Dreadnought?" Cryptic's choice of names is meaningless. The STATS do not lie and tell everything.
So yes, Escorts as Escorts, regardless of the flavor.
-40 power? LOL, the only Rom players that have to worry about that are newbies that haven't gotten any of the endgame gear. Are you not aware of all the different means of attaining extra Subsystem Power these days? This isn't 2010. There are tons of consoles that grant extra power. There are Deflectors, Engines, Shields that grant extra power. There are bonuses that grant extra power. There are devices that can be used to surge your power to hit the AMP core wickets.
Simply put, once a Romulan player starts piling up his endgame gear, the Subsystem Power issue is mitigated.
Also, if the Rom is an Engineer, he has zero Subsystem Power issues at all once he gets all his basic Engineer Captain Traits. None!
Let's widen this up some more. Let's talk about the other thing that makes the Romulans so OP in this game. I already told you about how warbirds have no true design compromises. I also told you elsewhere about the overpowered Romulan Republic BOFF & Captain Traits.
Captain & BOFF: Romulan Operative.
+ Crit Hit
+ Crit Severity
Reduction in Cloak Cooldown Timer
BOFF Only: Subterfuge
+ Bonus Defense
+ Ambush/Decloak Damage Mod
+ Stealth (pointless for PVE)
Reman Captain & BOFF Only: Infiltrator
+ Stealth
+ Defense
+ Ambush/Decloak Timer Increase
Between the Romulan Republic Captain and the BOFFs, a full crew of these highly beneficial traits can be loaded up onto a build. Except for +Stealth and Infiltrator Ambush timer mod, they ALL STACK. Superior Romulan Operative is a massive benefit that nothing in the KDF nor Fed factions have. Not on the scale that Roms can have. Non-Roms can only get SRO BOFFs for Tactical Stations. 2 typically, 3 at the very best. In contrast, Roms can have a full 5 Active BOFF SRO Crew. Full SRO Crew is a BIG DEAL in STO and a massive benefit that cannot be replicated anywhere but the Rom Republic.
I also mentioned Infiltrator. The same quality of this trait does not stack. Different quality of this trait DOES stack. So a Reman Captain simply needs 1 BOFF somewhere with Superior Infiltrator with the rest having SRO. If that player has the Delta Rising Pack, they get a Reman BOFF with Superior Infiltrator AND Superior Romulan Operative (WTFMATE).
My Romulan Liberated Borg Engineer's current BOFF setup on his Command FDC, from BOFF Traits alone gets:
+200 Stealth
+15.1% Bonus Defense
4 active BOFFs with SRO providing:
+8% Crit Hit
+20% Crit Severity
His Ambush/Decloak damage modifier is at +45% Bonus Damage.
- The Ambush bonus lasts 15 seconds
- The Cloak can has a cooldown of 12 seconds
*** Yes, the bonus lasts LONGER than the Cooldown.
You know what else is funny? These Bonuses SUCK. I made the mistake of choosing a Romulan Liberated Borg when LOR hit as my first Republic Character. Liberated Borg Captains do not have access to Romulan Operative, Subterfuge, nor Infiltrator. My Romulan TAC however flies all the time with Operative, so that's extra +Crit hit, +Crit Severity, and even more cloak cooldown reduction. I can get it down to as little as 9 seconds.
And you know what makes this better?
- My Reman Science Captain, due to her Standard Infiltrator Trait + Superior Infiltrator from a Reman BOFF can make the Ambush bonus last 23 seconds. TWENTY-THREE damn seconds of +45% Bonus Damage. The Bonus lasts twice as long as the Cloak's Cooldown timer.
The Cloaks provide Romulans with a Free all-purpose damage bonus. It's like a free Attack Pattern that can be made to last almost as long as Attack Pattern Alpha III.
In contrast, the best a KDF Captain can do on a Bird of Prey is +25% Ambush/Decloak Bonus that lasts 5 seconds tops. The lowest I have ever been able to reduce the Cloak Cooldown was about 16 seconds.
Yeah. Clearly, you have absolutely NO IDEA what you're talking about between the factions :rolleyes:
Yeah it was funny especially before they buff to the norgh when it had same hull amount as a shuttle lol. People would send me tells about oh how they almost had me and I was like yeah almost did 5k damage to me. Sad part was i was just watching tv while hitting tactical team over and over again. Oh and the hegh'ta our monument to the days before we thought we couldn't be screwed over in the KDF even more back when it was better of a ship than the b'rel rofl. Its sad its so down in the gutter of development now they didn't even do anything to make a T5U out of it lol.
I am sure though they will come thru for us they will make a KDF bird of prey pack with 20 different kinds of roles/bops that come in a pack for 100k zen. The first one will be the T6 one we have always wanted it will have 1 tactical slot, 5 science, and 5 engineering. It will have a tactical console that cannot be removed that will do as much damage as a romulan ship can for any type of damage. So then ppl can complain about a shield modifier when a true bop player would be like shields what are those?
I noticed only 2 "problems". 1) I don't have a Tactical/Pilot officer. Mine are either Engineer or Science so I could not test the pilot powers. It would be nice if the pilot seasts were universal.
2) There appears to be some problem with the zoom option while in a mission map: very small or very large. It is a bit annoying.
But other than that I love this new Raptor.
You are beyond bias when it comes to the KDF.. no I'm not a noob and I have 10 toons spread across all factions 4 fed, 3 romulan, 3 kdf.
We are taking ships not boffs.. you cant win one argument so you bring up boffs as some how that has to do with ships stats.
As pilot ships are one of the few ships that mirror each other for the same class.. the Romulans do pay for there battle cloaks just as the KDF pay for there standard cloaks.
AS I stated but your in ability to comprehended is that you may feel that the stat tax for a battle cloak is not enough.. but that's a different argument.
Also in end game gear are you trying to argue that KDF players are so pathetic that can't over come a slight shield difference compared to federation ships in the same class? If you are.. just wow.
So here we go again.. you cant win the ship for ship difference in the same class debate.. that you have to bring up Boffs and ships that are not even in class that you can compare vs another class.. such as Bop's that no one else has.. a battle cloaking full universal boff lay out.
So until you can keep on the subject of same class of ship there is no point even debating this with you as you. Maybe the reason KDF keeps getting no content is players like your self that just have to complain about everything.
If you want whine about overpowered boffs then go start a thread on it this was about pilot ships and comparing them to each other.
These Pilot ships are great ships and the KDF are not being gimped or shafted in anyway. They look great and a 5/2 5 tac console ship has been wanted for a long time. No one should be complaining about these ships.
Nothing in this game is isolated on its own. Does the word "Synergy" hold any meaning? I expect Veteran Players to be able to see how all this stuff comes together. Even if the ships were the exact same, i.e. a Lobi/Event/Promo Box ship, they interact very differently from the game. Feds will take the ship and can apply their fabulous, faction-specific Starship Traits to them. KDF & Roms don't have that same level of great Starship Traits. But the Roms will at least take that exact same ship and make it a monster with their faction-unique, very powerful BOFFs & Trait combos.
Synergy.
And the ship-to-ship comparison still stands. When you throw in the rest of the game, it gets even more laughable. If you don't see how all this comes together and ignore the facts and go on with drivel, then by all means, carry on.
Playing one of the new Featured Episodes the first time will get you 1 character bound Pilot Specialization PADD. I forgot which one but it's safe to do this on a TAC BOFF so you can get more out of the Pilot Ships. It's a 1 time reward kind of deal for each character. If you want more of these Pilot Spec PADDs, either you can make them on your own if you have progressed far enough in Pilot Spec or get them off exchange. But I wouldn't be surprised if they were expensive right now. Or you can get a friend to make the PADD for you.
sorry first thing that came to mind
Sorry but I'm calling your BS here...
For one you tried to separate the fact that the Bop's low shields and hull had nothing to do with the fact they have all universal boffs.. you tried to separate it by saying that it was that they gave up a console.. so where is your synergy there?
You ignored the fact that defiant gave up a console for a basic cloak. You separated that when comparing stats.
Then you get called out on that you bring up Boffs....
No Sir you are being a hypocrite.
You are totally bias.
We were comparing only pilot ships that's what this thread was about.
Facts are that Romulans do pay for there battle cloak just as the KDF pays for there basic cloak. You can cry and whine that its not fair. In the end the facts are that ships that have cloaks pay for then we reduced stats else were on the ship. All other out side considerations are mute. This was a ship for ship comparison. Not a whine thread on who has better boffs, and while I agree that Romulans do have the best boffs in the game for DPS (as the feds have the best for tanking) that has nothing to do with ship stats and the "tax" for having a integrated cloak.
The comment that I replied to was that a person said that the Romulans do not pay a "tax" for there cloaks.. this is a out right false statement. You then come in trying to defend that statement with a bunch of fluff that has nothing to do with the FACT that Romulan ships do pay for those battle cloaks in ships states having weaker shields compared to feds, weaker hulls compared to feds and KDF, and lower starting system power compared to both feds and kdf. You can cry about boffs all you want but that's not what the discussion was about.
Ships pay for there integrated cloak based on the SHIP and its STATS and BOFF LAYOUTS... not based on claimed synergy with boffs or consoles that you may put in to those ships.