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  • guilli88guilli88 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Or you get them for free via the Dil exchange or in the case of lock box ships off the exchange for EC. :rolleyes:


    Time isnt free.

    Grinding a month for zen/dil isn't FREE. Get that in your skull.


    If they introduced godmode that costs 100.000 zen you people would still call it free. It isn't.

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  • sonnikkusonnikku Member Posts: 77 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    Anyone who spends $180.00 a year Subscribing to WoW - or any one of the dozens of other MMOs - is being taken for a ride then? Yet they do not feel that way. Why not? Because they are getting enjoyment out of their $180.00 spent a year.

    Whether you spend $180.00 a year on a Subscription or $180.00 on 6 new ships, if you feel you are getting enjoyment out of it then it is money well spent.

    In the past I would have said no because there were no alternatives to paying $180 a year if you wanted to play WoW. Now with WoW Token and NA prices averaging 18k you can pay for your sub in a weeks worth of just normal gold accumulation and never pay cash again. (masters of the AH can make it in a day) But that's beside the point, my point is, in STO you have the Contraband system. It's simply too good to ignore in favor of opening your wallet and dropping $30 on a single ship. Maybe that would seem like less of a ripoff if contraband didn't exist, but that's not the hell we live in. :) Then again, if you really are spending that much a ship times all your ships thanks for keeping the game sustainable for the rest of us. :D
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    sonnikku wrote: »
    But that's beside the point, my point is, in STO you have the Contraband system. It's simply too good to ignore in favor of opening your wallet and dropping $30 on a single ship. Maybe that would seem like less of a ripoff if contraband didn't exist, but that's not the hell we live in. :) Then again, if you really are spending that much a ship times all your ships thanks for keeping the game sustainable for the rest of us. :D
    I would not put a lot of long-term faith into the Contraband system. Starting today Cryptic is nerfing a small percentage of Doff Missions because they feel those Missions are being exploited by the players. Eventually they will get around to Contraband - as Contraband is far more exploited then many of the other Dilithium/EC/XP things Cryptic has already nerfed. :)
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    guilli88 wrote: »
    Time isnt free.

    Grinding a month for zen/dil isn't FREE. Get that in your skull.


    If they introduced godmode that costs 100.000 zen you people would still call it free. It isn't.

    You are correct, time isn't "free", it is a factor in opportunity cost. Its also true that the dev's time isn't free either. That said how much dil does a person earn by doing the various reputation runs, mission content, doff missions, and other things that most people do during the course of normal participation? That dilithium is a subsidy, zen being on sales is a subsidy, C store items on sale is a subsidy. This is one area where I don't have a complaint with Cryptic.

    The whole game itself is a luxury, with Cstore items being an ultra luxury. In a F2P game, its also a way to support the game as well. If you dont find the value in the whole proposition , don't buy/grind for those things.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,166 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    cronos722 wrote: »
    I agree with this, even though time is more valuable than money.

    Spending someone elses money does not increase the pie to keep the lights on. //increase sales

    It makes no difference to Cryptic whose money it is, as long as they are getting it.
    cypherous wrote: »
    Literally the worst argument ever,

    My argument is 100% fact. You can get anything in the game store without ever spending any of your own money. Whether you *like* putting in the time to do it is completely irrelevant to the actual fact.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • samt1996samt1996 Member Posts: 2,856 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    It makes no difference to Cryptic whose money it is, as long as they are getting it.



    My argument is 100% fact. You can get anything in the game store without ever spending any of your own money. Whether you *like* putting in the time to do it is completely irrelevant to the actual fact.

    +1

    And other words to meet the character limit...
  • cypherouscypherous Member Posts: 183 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    When they offer new cars for $100, you might have a point. If the occasional $30.00 purchase for a game I presume you enjoy is a life changing purchase event, I would suggest getting some help. Afterall, you dont get charged to play any of the content to keep the lights on, the C store items are a contribution to help keep the game going. Not to mention that one can grind to get a ship if they want, this Delta Recruit event has given me enough dil to buy enough Zen for a T6 ship for sure.

    See the issue isn't the cost, i have no issues paying for something i know i'll enjoy, the issue is that all purchases are currently blind purchases, sure you can see the stats but you have no idea if you'll actually liek the ship or if it will match what you expect it to, if i'm paying for a product i want to know what it is i'm buying in detail before i pay for it, its the same as anyone would expect for a purchase, or are you in the habit of buying things without seeing if they are actually worth having in the first place? :P
    My argument is 100% fact. You can get anything in the game store without ever spending any of your own money. Whether you *like* putting in the time to do it is completely irrelevant to the actual fact.

    I never said it wasn't fact so i'm not sure why you're arguing it, it is literally the worst argument ever, fact or not its a terrible mindset for any company to operate on, as i've said would you buy a car without being able to test drive it or inspect it in person first?
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,166 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    guilli88 wrote: »
    Time isnt free.

    Grinding a month for zen/dil isn't FREE. Get that in your skull.


    If they introduced godmode that costs 100.000 zen you people would still call it free. It isn't.

    It terms of commerce, "free" means you don't have to pay someone money for something. Philosophical arguments about the value of time have nothing to do with the commercial meaning of "free".

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    cypherous wrote: »
    See the issue isn't the cost, i have no issues paying for something i know i'll enjoy, the issue is that all purchases are currently blind purchases, sure you can see the stats but you have no idea if you'll actually liek the ship or if it will match what you expect it to, if i'm paying for a product i want to know what it is i'm buying in detail before i pay for it, its the same as anyone would expect for a purchase, or are you in the habit of buying things without seeing if they are actually worth having in the first place? :P
    Or you can simply log into Tribble and play the ship to test it. :)
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • cypherouscypherous Member Posts: 183 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    Or you can simply log into Tribble and play the ship to test it. :)

    All content is subject to change, just because something is on tribble doesn't mean thats how its going to be when it goes live and there is always the chance that it could change, so being able to test something there isn't really helpful and there is literally no downside to having some sort of test drive feature or rental option, hell you could even charge dil/zen for the rental which would then end up as a discount on the ship should you choose to purchase it, the issue is that this would require effort and considering how PWE wants to make maximum $$$ from minimum effort :P
  • cidjackcidjack Member Posts: 2,017 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    cypherous wrote: »
    See the issue isn't the cost, i have no issues paying for something i know i'll enjoy, the issue is that all purchases are currently blind purchases, sure you can see the stats but you have no idea if you'll actually liek the ship or if it will match what you expect it to, if i'm paying for a product i want to know what it is i'm buying in detail before i pay for it, its the same as anyone would expect for a purchase, or are you in the habit of buying things without seeing if they are actually worth having in the first place? :P



    I never said it wasn't fact so i'm not sure why you're arguing it, it is literally the worst argument ever, fact or not its a terrible mindset for any company to operate on, as i've said would you buy a car without being able to test drive it or inspect it in person first?

    Blind purchases, I feel you on that. I never get to try on underwear before I purchase it, and the store I get them from has a no return policy on underwear that has been worn.
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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,166 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    cypherous wrote: »
    I never said it wasn't fact so i'm not sure why you're arguing it, it is literally the worst argument ever, fact or not its a terrible mindset for any company to operate on, as i've said would you buy a car without being able to test drive it or inspect it in person first?

    The reason they let you test drive a car is because it costs tens of thousands of dollars. If it only cost $30, they probably wouldn't let you test drive it at all. You are making an insanely ridiculous comparison.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • tinkerstormtinkerstorm Member Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    cypherous wrote: »
    See the issue isn't the cost, i have no issues paying for something i know i'll enjoy, the issue is that all purchases are currently blind purchases, sure you can see the stats but you have no idea if you'll actually liek the ship or if it will match what you expect it to, if i'm paying for a product i want to know what it is i'm buying in detail before i pay for it, its the same as anyone would expect for a purchase, or are you in the habit of buying things without seeing if they are actually worth having in the first place? :P
    You think there is more to the ship than the published itemization? What do you think is hiding underneath the floorboards?

    These whiney threads are endlessly amusing. The OP obviously suffers from a grossly inflated false sense of entitlement. All video games are luxury items. Only a buffoon complains about the price of a luxury item. It is not possible to play this game without adequate computer hardware, and possession of computer hardware capable of playing this game means you are not poor. Suck it up and pay the fee.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    cypherous wrote: »
    All content is subject to change, just because something is on tribble doesn't mean thats how its going to be when it goes live and there is always the chance that it could change, so being able to test something there isn't really helpful and there is literally no downside to having some sort of test drive feature or rental option, hell you could even charge dil/zen for the rental which would then end up as a discount on the ship should you choose to purchase it, the issue is that this would require effort and considering how PWE wants to make maximum $$$ from minimum effort :P
    Yes, and those final changes would eventually be on Tribble as well. So just because the Pack is released today does not mean you have to purchase it today. You could try the final version on Tribble for weeks before needing to make a purchase decision.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • cypherouscypherous Member Posts: 183 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    You think there is more to the ship than the published itemization? What do you think is hiding underneath the floorboards?

    These whiney threads are endlessly amusing. The OP obviously suffers from a grossly inflated false sense of entitlement. All video games are luxury items. Only a buffoon complains about the price of a luxury item. It is not possible to play this game without adequate computer hardware, and possession of computer hardware capable of playing this game means you are not poor. Suck it up and pay the fee.

    There is clearly no point trying to explain it to you as you wont listen, i can tell by the way you think a stats page tells you everything you need to know about a ship, i mean, its not like there are different ways to fly a given ship or seeing if it can take the strain of how you choose to fly your ship etc, i mean, we all fly the exact same way with the exact same fits in the exact same way dont we
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Have they suddenly changed things on Tribble? Has the Cstore there been activated and updated so all cash ships are available to be claimed and tested before any purchases are made on the Holodeck?
    As far as I know new ships are still added to that console on ESD and anyone can claim them there. That is where I tested the Command ships a few months back. There was a GIF video from someone yesterday showing their Pilot ship in action from Tribble.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,166 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    cypherous wrote: »
    There is clearly no point trying to explain it to you as you wont listen, i can tell by the way you think a stats page tells you everything you need to know about a ship, i mean, its not like there are different ways to fly a given ship or seeing if it can take the strain of how you choose to fly your ship etc, i mean, we all fly the exact same way with the exact same fits in the exact same way dont we

    See above post from cosmic.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Ah It's been so long since I bothered to try testing ships I wasn't aware you could get them from a console.

    Uhm stupid question... Where is the console and is there one for KDF and Roms?
    The Console is in the Shipyard on the desk near, I think, the Ship and Shuttle Requisition Officer. I cannot say to the KDF or Rom versions, as I have only tested Fed ships, but I would assume they are in the respective Shipyards.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • cypherouscypherous Member Posts: 183 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    A) You can copy your character to Tribble and have the exact same gear you have on Holodeck.

    B) There is a console on ESD that allows you to get new ships for testing purposes.

    C) You can equip your existing gear on those new ships, then do any type of content you want.

    Because of these things, your whole argument about not being able to test something is completely invalid.

    *facedesks*

    Yes, let me go through a copying process, maintain a complete duplicate of my game client and then login to a server that doesn't properly replicate real world situations to "test" something, i think you're missing the point of what tribble is designed for and its not designed as a playground, but thats something players will never seem to understand and applies to more than just this game, whereas there SHOULD be a similar feature on holodeck, you could even, as the name suggests, make it a holodeck ingame, its not complicated, atleast not for competent developers who actually want to improve things, now, unless you have a valid reason as to why such a feature SHOULD NOT exist then please state it, otherwise stop brown nosing
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,166 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    cypherous wrote: »
    *facedesks*

    Best thing you have said thus far. Keep that up and we might actually get somewhere :o

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    cypherous wrote: »
    *facedesks*

    Yes, let me go through a copying process, maintain a complete duplicate of my game client and then login to a server that doesn't properly replicate real world situations to "test" something, i think you're missing the point of what tribble is designed for and its not designed as a playground, but thats something players will never seem to understand and applies to more than just this game, whereas there SHOULD be a similar feature on holodeck, you could even, as the name suggests, make it a holodeck ingame, its not complicated, atleast not for competent developers who actually want to improve things, now, unless you have a valid reason as to why such a feature SHOULD NOT exist then please state it, otherwise stop brown nosing
    Well then, I looks like you will not be buying the ships - or any other ship for that matter.

    It is possible to be too picky. :)
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • cypherouscypherous Member Posts: 183 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    Well then, I looks like you will not be buying the ships - or any other ship for that matter.

    It is possible to be too picky. :)

    Which i'm fine with, but even you know i'm not the only person and eventually its going to be just the die hards paying money and only the die hards left, and as we all know an MMO needs new blood to sustain it, i mean its not like half of this game (ground) is already written off as terrible by critics, when was the last time they sold some new ground content in the cstore exactly? (costumes dont count they dont actually add anything)

    I mean if you want the game to literally end up being the same handful of people over and over then by all means continue, just look at how dead the STF queues became after everyone had already maxed out their DR's
  • jermbotjermbot Member Posts: 801 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    cypherous wrote: »
    Which i'm fine with, but even you know i'm not the only person and eventually its going to be just the die hards paying money and only the die hards left, and as we all know an MMO needs new blood to sustain it, i mean its not like half of this game (ground) is already written off as terrible by critics, when was the last time they sold some new ground content in the cstore exactly? (costumes dont count they dont actually add anything)

    I mean if you want the game to literally end up being the same handful of people over and over then by all means continue, just look at how dead the STF queues became after everyone had already maxed out their DR's

    If a large enough group of players decide they can not make purchases without a chance to test a ship on a live server, Cryptic will develop a way to allow players to have those tests. This will probably not necessitate a reduction in ship pricing though so I'm not sure if this complaint is in line with the topic of this thread.

    For the moment though, the developers of this game do seem to be able to generate the necessary ship sales through just screen caps of the ship, text layouts of the stats plus seating, and descriptions of the ships unique abilities without the benefit mechanical breakdowns.
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  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    The new ships are getting out of hand in costs whether you're talking C-Store and most especially Lobi Ships. STO follows the format that each higher tier of ships gets more expensive but it's getting a bit stupid now.

    Before Profits Rising, 800 Lobi for a ship? That was expensive. Now T6 is at 900. You guys serious?!?

    If anything, I'd suggest T6 be brought down to where T5 currently sits at in price / lobi. And current T5 be reduced in price / lobi.

    What's next? 1000 Lobi T7 ships? You guys gonna defend that also?
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  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    a $30 plastic kit.. far more common today then it was even 5 years ago.. but typically.. a lot model kits retail for under $15..and some of the small scale items are even less...

    and guess what!?!?!?! you get to keep the physical model ship forever long after cryptic shuts the doors on STO!!!

    For $30, I would expect for cryptic to email me the 3D design of the ship so I can use my work's 3D printer to make a copy of it to paint!

    Now there is a concept!

    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
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  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    cypherous wrote: »
    See the issue isn't the cost, i have no issues paying for something i know i'll enjoy, the issue is that all purchases are currently blind purchases, sure you can see the stats but you have no idea if you'll actually liek the ship or if it will match what you expect it to, if i'm paying for a product i want to know what it is i'm buying in detail before i pay for it, its the same as anyone would expect for a purchase, or are you in the habit of buying things without seeing if they are actually worth having in the first place? :P

    Unless they have changed it, you can "test drive" a ship on Tribble. Honestly though, you get a pretty good idea of the capabilities alof a ship from previous STO experience and looking at the stats. I have yet to buy a ship in game that didnt perform as I had anticipated. To answer your question, I can determine value for most low dollar purchases (like a CStore) ship without having the seller let me "test drive" it. I also dont have to immediately buy something (ie. early adopter), so I tend to get enough information to get what I pay for.
  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    The new ships are getting out of hand in costs whether you're talking C-Store and most especially Lobi Ships. STO follows the format that each higher tier of ships gets more expensive but it's getting a bit stupid now.

    Before Profits Rising, 800 Lobi for a ship? That was expensive. Now T6 is at 900. You guys serious?!?

    If anything, I'd suggest T6 be brought down to where T5 currently sits at in price / lobi. And current T5 be reduced in price / lobi.

    What's next? 1000 Lobi T7 ships? You guys gonna defend that also?

    Doesn't make a difference to me, never wanted a Lobi ship, I don't see me having interest in a Lobi ship in the future.
  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    you all guys missing the point ,its a digital product,no shipping fee,no labor cost when product is done....Op,you are dead on,prices are 2 damn high..chers m8:D

    And you go with less margin to sell more not high margin to sell less...<<<<????cryptic doing business:eek:


    Some players need to visit some factory asap,and see production of one or 2 products whole process.

    And 2. fix the LAAAAAgggggggggg...

    If you dont like the price, dont buy it, its a luxury to a luxury product.

    You seem to think that the cost of the ship only covers costs of developing just the ships, the money goes to help fund the whole game product, including future content. This whole game is the product, and buying ships benefits the game product as a whole.

    I cant argue with you regarding the lag.
  • jermbotjermbot Member Posts: 801 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    you all guys missing the point ,its a digital product,no shipping fee,no labor cost when product is done....Op,you are dead on,prices are 2 damn high..chers m8:D

    And you go with less margin to sell more not high margin to sell less...<<<<????cryptic doing business:eek:


    Some players need to visit some factory asap,and see production of one or 2 products whole process.

    And 2. fix the LAAAAAgggggggggg...

    Value is not determined by the production cost but rather the market demand.

    And while you're right in that a smaller price tag may encourage more purchases and overall more profitability for that specific ship, you can't just look at this in a vacuum. The 30 dollar price tag on ships encourages people to supplement their purchase with zen obtained via the dilithium exchange thus guarantying a high dilithium to zen ratio. A high dilithium to zen ratio makes the market friendlier to zen sellers which also leads to income for Cryptic. It's entirely possible that someone is willing to spend zen at 230 dilithium a pop, but not 195 for instance.

    Now, the exact numbers I do not have, they have not been made available to me. But I'm pretty sure someone in Cryptic or PWE has the numbers needed to determine approximately how much new zen they expect to sell when the value of dilithium sinks.
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