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oldkhemaraa
Member Posts: 1,039 Arc User
Ok, first off, undoubtably most of you will agree with what I say here... SO lets relax.. This post is to the Money Management folk at Cryptic.
I'm going to start with something that a dev said, forget which one. It's a short list. I could get off my lazy self and go dig it up, but it's not absolutly essential.
"KDF items don't sell well"
I won't argue with it, because it doesn't surprise me. We have one KDF costume option in the Zen store. The Academy Uniform.. We do have unlocks in game but it's delivered ice cold rebuttle dept. of "It's not like we have anything we get to buy"
Cryptic took a bath on the Bartasqu because even with its' "specials" it's not percieved as a very good ship in STO by the players. While it looks awesome, it just doesn't really fit anywhere in the KDF line up. The selection of ship prior to t-6 just wasn't really there. The poor reception of the Bortasqu feels very much like it has been used as an excuse.
Prior to this year we really didn't have that many "New" ships to play with as KDF. There is a legion of reason why Cryptic chose to not create more ships for the KDF. I'll rebuttle that Cryptic hasn't exactly gone out of their way to try and turn this around.
Ok, theres some spade work done. Time to get to the fruit of the matter.
Dear Devs:
Um, your ships in this game, are too expensive. $30 usd worth of Zen for the new pilot ships.. less of course if you buy bundles. I realize that a whole bunch of work has gone into them. I used to mod for SFC-II.. Building the mesh, Several version.. whole, damaged, scrapped. distance models. several setting points for effects, weapon fire, skinning the model, building damage maps. And these days skinning is even more fun, reflective maps, glow effects, little enhancements to improving the virtual 3d look. I have a very very good idea of just the manhours involved are to produce the product and a decent idea of the process from the first verbal concept to and end product, factoring in the development of new game mechanics and systems that come with the ships.
But $30. I ran a hobby shop. And plastic kit manufacturers are pretty good about getting out to the model building community just how much is involved in making model kits. And thats before they even get to mass production costs. You don't have any production costs after you make the ship in game. And I'd really find it hard to believe that it would cost Cryptic any more in developments costs to add a ship to the game, then say Tamiya to create a model, molds, decal sheet, build instruction, box art and packaging, promotional materials for a new model kit. And lets not forget distribution overhead. Still gotta get the product to the customer.
a $30 plastic kit.. far more common today then it was even 5 years ago.. but typically.. a lot model kits retail for under $15..and some of the small scale items are even less...
I look at the prices of what you offer in the Zen store and the retailer in my soul go's
"You guys have not a clue on how to sell product." And I have by doubts as to if you truely understand your market. I know plenty of your customers out here are very dis-satisfied with how you go about it. What I can't figure out is, at the rate that the studio has shown it can develop new ships and new mechanic for the game why you don't want to promote getting that into the players hands just as fast as possible. Cryptic does not have distribution overhead cost that are in any way significant. Charging more for a virtual product with a lifetime of the product limited to the life time of what its made for... You wan't me to pay you $30 for a in game ship? And your upset because I have sufficiently high IQ to figure out why its really not all that good of a deal?
... Hey I only PLAY in a fantasy SciFi setting ok, I don't actually live there!
Please please.. take it from a pro.. Drop your prices.. all of your zen prices for EVERYTHING by 50% permanently. We the consumers don't really have as much free cash as you think we do to spend on recreational activities...including MMO's. Your price points are set far far to high across the board, and... your competing in the game with your own cash shop...which strikes me as rather wierd. I personally look at the prices of the newest ships as singletons and its just to much money to pay.. and I don't think your going to get the return you should. If your aiming the game at a level of difficulty down the road to where the end game content is going to pretty much require players to get the new mechanic ships you are shooting yourselves in the wallet! I've watched it happen to CCG's and other collectable game types. It's not that different. And I can list game titles for table top games that have expanded themselves right out of their market and essentially suicided a product line.
(Back to the KDF and then I'm done.)
Look at what happened with the Bortasqu. When the ship was introduced to the game is really wasn't up to what the KDF players wanted, and nor did it fill any percieved need for KDF ship lineup. I personally felt that it was "We made the End-F for the Feds, we need to make something for the Klingons". You even created a lovely bridge for it. But it really wasn't anything but a very few KDF players were even interested in, especially when comparing it to then existing KDF ships. On top of giving it a "special" weapon that fired in a cannon type arc and could mount cannons as weapons mated to the absolutely worst turn mode hull in the KDF lineup. Yea that worked real well for Cryptic didn't it. NO wonder the sales of it stunk, and still stink. It almost feels like the ship was created to purposely be a shelf dog. It's certainly been used as an example and an excuse.
Maybe KDF sales on the Intel, command and pilot ships have, or will improve over previous sale performance of KDF material. I do know that KDF players want a racial Klingon science ship. I don't understand why Cryptic hasn't delivered some sort of basic T5 Klingon science ship, an upgrade version, and a fleet version and its associated upgrade by now. This isn't even touching on a tier 6 version. Cryptic policies, and that is what they apparently are NOW, towards creating KDF content at any level has seriously impacted KDF players willingness to buy ANYTHING.
Just as a matter of recognizing how human react to opinions and statements, the studios situation has NOT been helped by continuing declarations by developer stuff that it is essentially not worth the time to develop exclusive KDF content. Doesn't matter if its true or not. It's not something you say to customers if you wish to retain them. Much less make money off them.
To make it plain, what as TRIBBLE hole thing to say to your customers. What a great way to set up in peoples mind a real attitude of "You don't want customer?" and to create fertile ground for failure
Ummm.. well, you know, if you done made up your mind on this, and that's the way its going to be... Why did you even bother developing KDF Command, Intell, and Pilot ships, and why was there even a bother of posting recently by a Dev of some costume revamps incoming that are specificly KDF?. Isn't that a bit of a mixed message?
I suppose KDF plays should be thank full on the one hand, but your not exactly encouraging KDF players to buy your latest toys. Seems to me there is a bit of a disconnect there. And itis NOT on the customers and specificly the KDF players end. It's all you guys!
Like it or not.. you made STO with a second faction. The original concept behind the game was to have three factions if I recall. not two. After 5 years it's all water well under the bridge But Cryptic needs to pay attention to all of its customers here and now.. doesn't matter what faction they play. I'm relatively confident that the percentage of play time expended on KDF toons has climbed above the infamous 18% by now. Is it still 18%? If it hasn't grown, which it should have by now, Has it shrunk? If it did, why did it? These are the questions.
Your customers are not stupid people. And Trek fan in particular have seen a great deal of poor quality products aimed at their wallets for decades. We even make jokes about it. Feel free to go look up the history of Trek based computer games and the long long long list of games that were both financial failures, and technical flops if your not all ready aware of them. Cryptic has managed to avoid this fate.
But 'ware hubris! We can't help but notice that there seems to be rather a lot of code cleanup that seems to grow exponentially over previous season release/major upgrades. Right now the game has a few integration issues with it new tech and systems. Some folk are awefully irritated about it because its impacting their enjoyment of the game, while many of us vet types are going about and smugly showing our moral superiority and maturity by taking in stride. That and we know that there are some folks working on getting those issues knocked out. Of 'couse not anywhere fast nuff for us... But then, if you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have gotten into the MMO industry in the first place. I know that there is at least one alter to Murphy and possibly several more to any patron saint/diety of computing real or imaginary scattered surreptitiously or obviously around the Cryptic offices.
Ok done, and because you been patient readers.. here is a synopsis:
You charge to much for micro transaction items, and if your customers choose to be wise investors of their recreational dollars, your won't get sales in the volume you should on the item that tend to take the most work to produce. Do something about this. If the stuff ain't selling in the volume you think it should then the studio is doing the something wrong.
The studio's representatives have made public statements in such a way as to apparently shift or create blame on to your customers for a lack of sales performance and that qualifies as a "Very Bad Thing". It effects sales. That the lack of sales performance is then sated by representatives as the reason to not develop certain additional content. *golf clap* Wow, just... wow.
Ok, done, Off do go my daily R&D projects, do DOFF missions, contribute to rep projects. And if I have anything left, contribute to fleet projects. Then go out and grind for tomorrows shopping list.
See ya
Khemaraa sends
I'm going to start with something that a dev said, forget which one. It's a short list. I could get off my lazy self and go dig it up, but it's not absolutly essential.
"KDF items don't sell well"
I won't argue with it, because it doesn't surprise me. We have one KDF costume option in the Zen store. The Academy Uniform.. We do have unlocks in game but it's delivered ice cold rebuttle dept. of "It's not like we have anything we get to buy"
Cryptic took a bath on the Bartasqu because even with its' "specials" it's not percieved as a very good ship in STO by the players. While it looks awesome, it just doesn't really fit anywhere in the KDF line up. The selection of ship prior to t-6 just wasn't really there. The poor reception of the Bortasqu feels very much like it has been used as an excuse.
Prior to this year we really didn't have that many "New" ships to play with as KDF. There is a legion of reason why Cryptic chose to not create more ships for the KDF. I'll rebuttle that Cryptic hasn't exactly gone out of their way to try and turn this around.
Ok, theres some spade work done. Time to get to the fruit of the matter.
Dear Devs:
Um, your ships in this game, are too expensive. $30 usd worth of Zen for the new pilot ships.. less of course if you buy bundles. I realize that a whole bunch of work has gone into them. I used to mod for SFC-II.. Building the mesh, Several version.. whole, damaged, scrapped. distance models. several setting points for effects, weapon fire, skinning the model, building damage maps. And these days skinning is even more fun, reflective maps, glow effects, little enhancements to improving the virtual 3d look. I have a very very good idea of just the manhours involved are to produce the product and a decent idea of the process from the first verbal concept to and end product, factoring in the development of new game mechanics and systems that come with the ships.
But $30. I ran a hobby shop. And plastic kit manufacturers are pretty good about getting out to the model building community just how much is involved in making model kits. And thats before they even get to mass production costs. You don't have any production costs after you make the ship in game. And I'd really find it hard to believe that it would cost Cryptic any more in developments costs to add a ship to the game, then say Tamiya to create a model, molds, decal sheet, build instruction, box art and packaging, promotional materials for a new model kit. And lets not forget distribution overhead. Still gotta get the product to the customer.
a $30 plastic kit.. far more common today then it was even 5 years ago.. but typically.. a lot model kits retail for under $15..and some of the small scale items are even less...
I look at the prices of what you offer in the Zen store and the retailer in my soul go's
"You guys have not a clue on how to sell product." And I have by doubts as to if you truely understand your market. I know plenty of your customers out here are very dis-satisfied with how you go about it. What I can't figure out is, at the rate that the studio has shown it can develop new ships and new mechanic for the game why you don't want to promote getting that into the players hands just as fast as possible. Cryptic does not have distribution overhead cost that are in any way significant. Charging more for a virtual product with a lifetime of the product limited to the life time of what its made for... You wan't me to pay you $30 for a in game ship? And your upset because I have sufficiently high IQ to figure out why its really not all that good of a deal?
... Hey I only PLAY in a fantasy SciFi setting ok, I don't actually live there!
Please please.. take it from a pro.. Drop your prices.. all of your zen prices for EVERYTHING by 50% permanently. We the consumers don't really have as much free cash as you think we do to spend on recreational activities...including MMO's. Your price points are set far far to high across the board, and... your competing in the game with your own cash shop...which strikes me as rather wierd. I personally look at the prices of the newest ships as singletons and its just to much money to pay.. and I don't think your going to get the return you should. If your aiming the game at a level of difficulty down the road to where the end game content is going to pretty much require players to get the new mechanic ships you are shooting yourselves in the wallet! I've watched it happen to CCG's and other collectable game types. It's not that different. And I can list game titles for table top games that have expanded themselves right out of their market and essentially suicided a product line.
(Back to the KDF and then I'm done.)
Look at what happened with the Bortasqu. When the ship was introduced to the game is really wasn't up to what the KDF players wanted, and nor did it fill any percieved need for KDF ship lineup. I personally felt that it was "We made the End-F for the Feds, we need to make something for the Klingons". You even created a lovely bridge for it. But it really wasn't anything but a very few KDF players were even interested in, especially when comparing it to then existing KDF ships. On top of giving it a "special" weapon that fired in a cannon type arc and could mount cannons as weapons mated to the absolutely worst turn mode hull in the KDF lineup. Yea that worked real well for Cryptic didn't it. NO wonder the sales of it stunk, and still stink. It almost feels like the ship was created to purposely be a shelf dog. It's certainly been used as an example and an excuse.
Maybe KDF sales on the Intel, command and pilot ships have, or will improve over previous sale performance of KDF material. I do know that KDF players want a racial Klingon science ship. I don't understand why Cryptic hasn't delivered some sort of basic T5 Klingon science ship, an upgrade version, and a fleet version and its associated upgrade by now. This isn't even touching on a tier 6 version. Cryptic policies, and that is what they apparently are NOW, towards creating KDF content at any level has seriously impacted KDF players willingness to buy ANYTHING.
Just as a matter of recognizing how human react to opinions and statements, the studios situation has NOT been helped by continuing declarations by developer stuff that it is essentially not worth the time to develop exclusive KDF content. Doesn't matter if its true or not. It's not something you say to customers if you wish to retain them. Much less make money off them.
To make it plain, what as TRIBBLE hole thing to say to your customers. What a great way to set up in peoples mind a real attitude of "You don't want customer?" and to create fertile ground for failure
Ummm.. well, you know, if you done made up your mind on this, and that's the way its going to be... Why did you even bother developing KDF Command, Intell, and Pilot ships, and why was there even a bother of posting recently by a Dev of some costume revamps incoming that are specificly KDF?. Isn't that a bit of a mixed message?
I suppose KDF plays should be thank full on the one hand, but your not exactly encouraging KDF players to buy your latest toys. Seems to me there is a bit of a disconnect there. And itis NOT on the customers and specificly the KDF players end. It's all you guys!
Like it or not.. you made STO with a second faction. The original concept behind the game was to have three factions if I recall. not two. After 5 years it's all water well under the bridge But Cryptic needs to pay attention to all of its customers here and now.. doesn't matter what faction they play. I'm relatively confident that the percentage of play time expended on KDF toons has climbed above the infamous 18% by now. Is it still 18%? If it hasn't grown, which it should have by now, Has it shrunk? If it did, why did it? These are the questions.
Your customers are not stupid people. And Trek fan in particular have seen a great deal of poor quality products aimed at their wallets for decades. We even make jokes about it. Feel free to go look up the history of Trek based computer games and the long long long list of games that were both financial failures, and technical flops if your not all ready aware of them. Cryptic has managed to avoid this fate.
But 'ware hubris! We can't help but notice that there seems to be rather a lot of code cleanup that seems to grow exponentially over previous season release/major upgrades. Right now the game has a few integration issues with it new tech and systems. Some folk are awefully irritated about it because its impacting their enjoyment of the game, while many of us vet types are going about and smugly showing our moral superiority and maturity by taking in stride. That and we know that there are some folks working on getting those issues knocked out. Of 'couse not anywhere fast nuff for us... But then, if you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have gotten into the MMO industry in the first place. I know that there is at least one alter to Murphy and possibly several more to any patron saint/diety of computing real or imaginary scattered surreptitiously or obviously around the Cryptic offices.
Ok done, and because you been patient readers.. here is a synopsis:
You charge to much for micro transaction items, and if your customers choose to be wise investors of their recreational dollars, your won't get sales in the volume you should on the item that tend to take the most work to produce. Do something about this. If the stuff ain't selling in the volume you think it should then the studio is doing the something wrong.
The studio's representatives have made public statements in such a way as to apparently shift or create blame on to your customers for a lack of sales performance and that qualifies as a "Very Bad Thing". It effects sales. That the lack of sales performance is then sated by representatives as the reason to not develop certain additional content. *golf clap* Wow, just... wow.
Ok, done, Off do go my daily R&D projects, do DOFF missions, contribute to rep projects. And if I have anything left, contribute to fleet projects. Then go out and grind for tomorrows shopping list.
See ya
Khemaraa sends
"I aim to misbehave" - Malcolm Reynolds
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
BTW, that is not me putting words in the OP's mouth, that is an actual quote from his post.
Anyway, my response is this: I have gotten pretty much everything I want from the game store without spending any of my own money. I have a pretty good dilithium farming system worked out, so I am steadily converting dilithium to zen every day. And eventually, I get what I want. The "problem" is if you want something instantly, in which case your "only" option is to buy it with your own money. But that "problem" is actually a choice, and not your only one.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Thank you for summing it up.
From my own perspective, I spend more than $30.00 a month at Starbucks. I spend more than $30.00 a month on movie tickets. I spend more than $30.00 a month on many of my hobbies. Heck, I spend more than $30.00 a month on the internet I use to play games. Hobbies are not cheap, no matter what they are.
The cost is relative to how much use you plan on getting out if it.
Yep. Whenever I think about spending money on entertainment, I ask myself "how long does it take me to earn this amount of money?". Usually the answer is significantly less than the length of enjoyment I will get out of the purchase.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
They need to pay for every ship and costume and what not. So they have to calculate the licence fee, and their own operating costs (electricity, gas, water, employess, ...) into the items.
Not me.
I'd be more likely to agree if we were all paying Cryptic $15 a month to keep the lights on and the server hamsters in pellets. But we are not.
The F2P model for STO is that the gameplay is free but the ships, costumes and lockboxes make up for that.
It's not perfect, but at least it isn't like SWTOR where you can't play the new season content at all without spending $20.
So: $30? Not outraged compared to $15 a month, every month. I'm too cheap to do it, but my brother is paying $90/month for his iPhone. I used to pay $100+ a month for cable TV before I switched to Netflix + Amazon Prime streaming.
I have to agree with you.
There are things I like about the STO model. I like a ship, I buy that ship.. I like that I pay for specifically what I want. This is the reason I don't play the Lockbox Lottery, I like to pay 'X' to receive 'Y.'
I buy a ship here and there, but I spend more then $30 just in the average night out, so if I buy a ship for that and I get hours of entertainment value out of it, it's not a big deal to me. As you said, it would be different if I were also paying per month to play and having to buy expansions.
That way everyone wins as people who aren't spending their lives farming dil or who have very limited playing time a chance to play with the new toys, it also lets people essentially do a "try before you buy" at a much lower cost, nothing worse than dropping $30 on a ship only to find you absolutely hate it, i mean why on earth would you want to make a blind purchase even car dealerships allow you a test drive :P
With the help of the KDF, Federation, and Romulan players that have pitched in on it. By the way thanks guy, couldn't have done it without you. It is now a Orion Science Vessel, a Naussican Raider, and a Lethean Dreadnought. All the devs have to do it look at this one post and see what the KDF are actually looking for in these three ships.
Ok before I go any farther off tangent.
Yes, the KDF ship don't sell. Why? Because they're basic re-skinned federation trash to us. Then as an EXCUSE not to actually develope anything new for the KDF you blame you customers. Which in turn, causes the customer to stop using their money on your product. But as long as Cryptic continues to blame their INCOMPOTENCE on its CUSTOMERS this will be the way of things. Its not the customers that needs to change to fit the companies need. Its teh company that needs to change to fit it's customers needs.
With a limit to how many boffs seatings there are with every ship, wouldn't eventually all ships [Fed/KDF/Rom] become mirror versions of each other?
So, it doesn't surprise me that you would use the term, re-skinned Fed trash.
Because, outside of having no real choices in Rom sci vessels, their ships are pretty much re-skinned Fed/KDF trash!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Fortunately, you don't have to pay. You can get any item you want in the game store using the dilithium exchange. No, it's not instant, nor should it be.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Like Cosmic said. I spend $30 on all kinds of stuff. And don't blink an eye. So buying a ship isn't that much specially if I will enjoy using it for a while.
Other option is to play and get Dil and use it on the exchange. I bought lots of items this way too. Before the prices went through the roof.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
There is a difference between "rationalization" and facts. Whether you like Cryptic's business model or not(which is where "rationalization" would come in), the FACT is that you have a way to get any item in the game store without spending any of your own money. That is not an opinion, that is not a rationalization, that is a FACT.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Cryptic is just like any other company. They need $ to survive and keep making games. I guess you rather have them shut down and we all won't be playing. :rolleyes:
Young? Not really I been playing on-line games since Command & Conquer first came out. Consul games since the Super NES came out. First MMO was wow before the Burning Crusade.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
What's funny is the thought that any generation of gamers are all in agreement on any given subject anyway. But the fact is, whether you have been playing for days or decades, every person has their own view on every issue, so his point is actually pointless.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Anybody that blows $30 on a ship in STO is getting taken for a ride. If I did what you described I'd either be broke on my TRIBBLE X all my ships or bored out of my TRIBBLE because I was flying the same old ship for a WHOLE YEAR.
L2CONTRABAND PEOPLE.
The Exchange makes them money.
Some people need Dil.
Some people need Zen.
Cryptic sells Zen.
People farm Dil.
People farming Dil for those that buy Zen from Cryptic...voila!
Would be nifty if they provided bagels on Friday or something.
They would only be hurting themselves by doing so. Every unit of zen on the exchange was purchased by someone, or came from their stipend. That being the case, Cryptic/PW is still making their money from every transaction that happens on the exchange. Also, a lot of people actually buy zen just to trade on the exchange for dilithium, and if the exchange were gone they wouldn't be spending that money. So no, Cryptic would never do that.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
than you must pay/grind very little towards the game economy, because $2.50 worth of zen, can be obtained via dilithium in 1 day!
Or, 1/3 - 1/100 of an hour of actual RL work!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Whether you spend $180.00 a year on a Subscription or $180.00 on 6 new ships, if you feel you are getting enjoyment out of it then it is money well spent.
Overall they would like $120 for 9 ship which are really just 3 ships re-skinned twice. Which makes it $40 per ship.
Considering 3 months ago they had the command bundle for $120 with the same gimmick.
4 months before the command bundle was the delta pack for $150, which had more variety and add-ons.
So we are up to $390 for c-store purchase; not including the lock box ships and promotional ships which could range anywhere between $240 - $510 for the 9 ships.
Not to mention the hidden cost like ship slots that nickel and dime you.
So compared to a $20 subscription per month game, which brings us to $240 a year we are looking over budget.
Insert argument of you get choice and you don't have to or you can play to earn to pay here and so on.... My opinion is I like to play the whole game not just a piece so I look at it as a whole. If you want me to open the wallet the "super" bundle is no good unless you put some more fluff.
On a side note I love cannons these ships are made for cannons but LAG!!!! is no good for cannons so instant wallet closed.
Plus I do understand the need to keep the lights on policy and cost associated with colocation, bandwidth leasing and overall company management, which are way more than most in these forums would believe.
If I missed anything on my quick analysis I apologize.
Just the "just because they're selling something doesn't mean you have to buy it" aspect.
Had that covered.
Can you please elaborate on this? I can't quite tell what you mean, so I want to clarify before actually responding to your point.
Also, you really didn't make any counter-point to the FACT that you can get the items in the zen store without spending ANY of your own money, by using the dilithium exchange.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
It does not seem that I got my point across. What I was trying to say that, everytime Cryptic adds something to the game, something else is taken away.
One Example:
New and improved R&D is added, Duty officer packs no longer drop consoles.