Taco, An idea/question

kdawgenigma · April 2015

Lovin the space map revamp. An idea hit me when I flew out to DS9. As I was approaching, I could make out the silhouette of DS9 in the far distance and was just neat how it was included with the planets orbiting the sun for that system. Here's what came to mind after that.

Would it be possible to have the bajoran wormhole randomly pop up in sector space like it does for the DS9 warp in map?

Thought it would make another pretty for us space travelers to observe as we fly by the system.

tacofangs · April 2015

Not as easy as it sounds.

And what does the Wormhole look like from the back?

I don't think it would look as good as people think it would.

aucka · April 2015

tacofangs wrote: »

Not as easy as it sounds.

And what does the Wormhole look like from the back?

I don't think it would look as good as people think it would.

Would it be possible to billboard it the way a lot of engines do grass and plants for ground environments?

In that case it seems like what it looks like in the back would be moot.

Just a thought.

alastorforthrigh · April 2015

I imagine the Wormhole would look much like it's front from the back. It's a swirling vortex of energy with an aperture at the center, visually anyway. So theoretically it'd look the same from both sides when viewed on a flat plain. If there were any difference Id say the back would have a much tighter swirl and no visible aperture. And of course from the sides it'd kinda look like a small, blue, rapidly spinning galaxy I suppose.

baddmoonrizin · April 2015

I imagine that we just pretend that it opens when we're not looking and move along.

dragonsbrethren · April 2015

tacofangs wrote: »

And what does the Wormhole look like from the back?

Weird. Go to the DS9 social map and fly behind it.

teknesia · April 2015

tacofangs wrote: »

Not as easy as it sounds.

And what does the Wormhole look like from the back?

I don't think it would look as good as people think it would.

Yeah, Taco, wouldn't it look roughly the same in all directions? As far as the shape of it, you could consider that much like the Black hole with the spiral that orbits it causing the cases to over heat and form a band around the hole. Only, in the case of the worm hole, it's the gases that are spewing out into the sector of space while simultaenously being pulled back in by the sudden gravometric disturbance. Thus, you have the light spewing in all directions from the center and the sorta ringish blue stuff around it.

stonewbie · April 2015

teknesia wrote: »

Yeah, Taco, wouldn't it look roughly the same in all directions? As far as the shape of it, you could consider that much like the Black hole with the spiral that orbits it causing the cases to over heat and form a band around the hole. Only, in the case of the worm hole, it's the gases that are spewing out into the sector of space while simultaenously being pulled back in by the sudden gravometric disturbance. Thus, you have the light spewing in all directions from the center and the sorta ringish blue stuff around it.

The problem isnt what is a wormhole supposed to look like...

We already know what the DS9 wormhole looks like from the TV shows. Doesnt matter if the DS9 wormhole isnt what a real wormhole looks like, people will associate that DS9 wormhole animation with DS9 so thats what you have to use. The problem is how do you animate that in 3 dimensional space. How do you animate it in such a way that no matter where you are-above, below, or around it the unique DS9 animation is what you see.

In games like WoW mage portals already have been doing this for the longest time. If you are on level ground and you pop a mage portal the image of the destination is on the portal. When you walk around it the image follows you. BUT the problem is when you go above or below that portal then you see that it is just a 2D image. There are actually lots of things that share that same visual effect like auras, priest bubbles, mage bubbles that kind of stuff. When on the same horizontal plane as the object it looks normal and follows your point of view, but once you go above or below it then things start to get skewed and it becomes obvious that it is a 3d image projected on a 2d canvas. I dont know what the technical term is for that kind of animation but if you need to see an example that is where you can see it.

fiberteksyfir · April 2015

stonewbie wrote: »

The problem isnt what is a wormhole supposed to look like...

We already know what the DS9 wormhole looks like from the TV shows. Doesnt matter if the DS9 wormhole isnt what a real wormhole looks like, people will associate that DS9 wormhole animation with DS9 so thats what you have to use. The problem is how do you animate that in 3 dimensional space. How do you animate it in such a way that no matter where you are-above, below, or around it the unique DS9 animation is what you see.

In games like WoW mage portals already have been doing this for the longest time. If you are on level ground and you pop a mage portal the image of the destination is on the portal. When you walk around it the image follows you. BUT the problem is when you go above or below that portal then you see that it is just a 2D image. There are actually lots of things that share that same visual effect like auras, priest bubbles, mage bubbles that kind of stuff. When on the same horizontal plane as the object it looks normal and follows your point of view, but once you go above or below it then things start to get skewed and it becomes obvious that it is a 3d image projected on a 2d canvas. I dont know what the technical term is for that kind of animation but if you need to see an example that is where you can see it.

Too bad they can make it a sprite.. Check out every 3d game made in the 90's the sprite face always looked straight at you because they were flat objects.

stonewbie · April 2015

darthmeow504 wrote: »

Either way it could be done visually with current graphics because the parts we can't render wouldn't be visible to 3D eyes or able to be processed by 3D brains at all.

TL;DR: It doesn't look like anything from the back because the back doesn't exist in our space and we cannot ever even concieve it's shape let alone see it.

I'm just an armchair animator, ignoring the fact that the engine may not even be able to do it or that it would take a lot of work this is probably how i would do it.

-take a pyramid with a square base
-all surfaces of the pyramid are transparent
-bottom of the base is where the DS9 wormhole animation would show
-the top of the pyramid would be anchored to a fixed point
- the rest of the pyramid can swivel around in every direction but will not move because of the anchor point
-the bottom face of the pyramid will have some kind of "aggro" mechanic where if a player is within a certain range of the DS9/Bajor system the bottom surface of the pyramid will turn and "look" directly at a player.
-tricky part...have the above system happen individually for each player that approached DS9. Player A approaches from above and the south pyramid object #1 does all of the above and looks at player A. Player B approaches from below and the east of DS9 pyramid object #2 spawns and looks at player B. Both players have their own unique viewscreen that plays the DS9 wormhole animations.

Plan B would be to have a small but bright white/blue orb with short tendrils just spawn next to DS9 for a few seconds and then go away. It wont look like the DS9 wormhole but close enough i guess hehe.

tacofangs · April 2015

To everyone saying it looks the same from all sides,why do ships fling into/out of it always seem to do so at an angle? Why not fly straight into it? Why is there an apparent hole, and ejecting light, at the the angle that matches that of the ship's flight path?

We're not talking about "real" theoretical wormholes here. We're talking about the one on the show.

(this is where Aelfwin calls me a hypocrite again)

fiberteksyfir wrote: »

Too bad they can make it a sprite.. Check out every 3d game made in the 90's the sprite face always looked straight at you because they were flat objects.

We can make a sprite of the wormhole, but wouldn't it be odd if it was always facing you no matter which direction you were coming from? Plus, if it were a sprite, it couldn't animate.

kdawgenigma · April 2015

tacofangs wrote: »

Not as easy as it sounds.

And what does the Wormhole look like from the back?

I don't think it would look as good as people think it would.

I see your point on that.

xenification · April 2015

tacofangs wrote: »

Not as easy as it sounds.

And what does the Wormhole look like from the back?

I don't think it would look as good as people think it would.

well instead of actually implementing it or something would it be possible (if you and the rest have time) to perhaps take a crack at it then show us? obviously not now but if and when you can create it and do a basic example of how it could look etc. it would probably takes weeks or something maybe long but its a decent idea that deserves at least some sort of attempt at least. if it doesnt work it doesnt work.

probably better to bounce the idea off the community rather than just flat out not bother

communication = better community response

baddmoonrizin · May 2015

I think I'd much rather see Taco spend his time revamping DS9 to the level of ESD or actually building the Gamma Quadrant, than worrying about how to animate/put the Bajoran Wormhole in Sector Space. Because, honestly, we don't need the Wormhole in Sector Space unless it's actually going to take us to the Gamma Quadrant. :rolleyes:

teknesia · May 2015

xenification wrote: »

well instead of actually implementing it or something would it be possible (if you and the rest have time) to perhaps take a crack at it then show us? obviously not now but if and when you can create it and do a basic example of how it could look etc. it would probably takes weeks or something maybe long but its a decent idea that deserves at least some sort of attempt at least. if it doesnt work it doesnt work.

probably better to bounce the idea off the community rather than just flat out not bother communication = better community response

Nice idea except that you may be taking key dev time from a major thing to something trivial that might not work at all. Better to have a solid idea how to accomplish the wormhole before you start, 5hen get it into production and then address any leftover minutiae

zedbrightlander1 · May 2015

What a Wormhole looks like from behind.

thlaylierah · May 2015

Take one of those storage bins that's taller than a bowling ball.

Place bowling ball in center of bin.

Fill bin with water until just a bit of the bowling ball is above the surface.

This is a fairly accurate model of a black hole.

The water is spacetime and the bowling ball is the displaced colapsar.

A "wormhole" would have to look similar.

I don't know what all the fireworks flying out is.

Wormhole would look the same from all sides as it is a puncture in spacetime.

benjaminms · May 2015

While I love the idea, there's the problem that it will be GPU-consuming if it is made in a decent way (eg without a lot of people complaining about how it is rendered). Also, how to project it?

equinox976 · May 2015

darthmeow504 wrote: »

A wormhole proceeds at a right angle from EVERY 3D DIRECTION AT ONCE. It's not a direction we can comprehend or visualize with our 3D brains, but that's how it works.

Considering wormholes are still theoretical you cannot make a definite statement on how they will look or how we would perceive them.

Writing in capital letters does not make your statement any more correct.

markhawkman · May 2015

equinox976 wrote: »

Considering wormholes are still theoretical you cannot make a definite statement on how they will look or how we would perceive them.

Writing in capital letters does not make your statement any more correct.

Even so, it's a 4-dimensional object.

we have no idea what it would look like, but... it wouldn't look normal that's for sure.

morden613 · May 2015

equinox976 wrote: »

Writing in capital letters does not make your statement any more correct.

She used caps in place of italics, if you want to be pedantic like that.

tacofangs · May 2015

Again, you guys are getting into theoretical physics land, which is not helpful in this instance.

We are talking about THIS. What would THIS look like from the back?

lordhavelock · May 2015

tacofangs wrote: »

...What would THIS look like from the back?

This?

#couldntresist

baddmoonrizin · May 2015

tacofangs wrote: »

Again, you guys are getting into theoretical physics land, which is not helpful in this instance.

We are talking about THIS. What would THIS look like from the back?

This?

tacofangs · May 2015

::: opens the corpse chute hatch :::

jorantomalak · May 2015

tacofangs wrote: »

::: opens the corpse chute hatch :::

:eek: Can i toss tovan out that hatch taco?

I know it wont work he will just find his way back like some mangy dog but it would be fun

lordhavelock · May 2015

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

This?

Seriously though, BaddMoonRizin' there has my vote of what it should look like.

baddmoonrizin · May 2015

tacofangs wrote: »

::: opens the corpse chute hatch :::

Hahaha...

lordhavelock wrote: »

Seriously though, BaddMoonRizin' there has my vote of what it should look like.

Honestly, though, I think Taco has better things to do with his time.

amezuki · May 2015

tacofangs wrote: »

Again, you guys are getting into theoretical physics land, which is not helpful in this instance.

We are talking about THIS. What would THIS look like from the back?

Personally, I don't think you would see anything from the back except perhaps a corona of light escaping from around the edges of the wormhole. What we see isn't a tangible object that exists in three-dimensional space, it's only the visible-light manifestation of the spacetime distortion--a "hole" in spacetime that as far as we know can only be entered from one side.

My WAG is that you'd see a starship approach the wormhole, see a flare of light as the aperture opened, perhaps then some of the visible leakage from around the edges of the aperture, and then the starship would seem to simply disappear as it reached the event horizon.

In terms of the actual in-game art asset, this effect could be accomplished very easily by creating the wormhole as a funnel shape and only texturing one side of it--or alternatively, texturing only the fringes that would "leak" around the edges.

The problem I see with this approach is that it is very likely to result in recurring threads from players who think that it's bugged because it disappears when they look at it from the back.

markhawkman · May 2015

tacofangs wrote: »

::: opens the corpse chute hatch :::

Liek this?

It kinda looks like a whirlpool from the front and the side... so if you looked at it from the back maybe it'd look like a whirlpool there too?

But the Celestial Temple doesn't have a long funnel on the outside, however it's aperture kind looks like it's spinning. apprently it's funnel shaped on the inside though.

maybe have the back as a spinning blue cone, but a very short one?

grylak · May 2015

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

I think I'd much rather see Taco spend his time revamping DS9 to the level of ESD or actually building the Gamma Quadrant, than worrying about how to animate/put the Bajoran Wormhole in Sector Space. Because, honestly, we don't need the Wormhole in Sector Space unless it's actually going to take us to the Gamma Quadrant. :rolleyes:

This. Why do we need the wormhole in sector space? It would be rediculously close to DS9, and we have it in the DS9 space map. That's where it belongs. You want to see the wormhole, you go to DS9. It's not like it's some random comet or trade ship passing by.

As for what it looks like from behind? I always figured it was the same spinning blue thing it was on the entrance side. The only difference is, it was flat and there was no opening. The whirling blue stuff covered the entire disk.

Taco, An idea/question

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