It's not "scrubbed". Those books still exist. No one is burning them. You can still read them and enjoy them any time you want. That only changes if you let Disney tell you what to think.
It is scrubbed, because they apparently have no relevance to the new continuity... Doesn't matter who's doing the telling, be it Disney, JJ or Lucas himself. The fact remains, that Episode VII is going in its own direction, and will not be taking the EU into account, ergo making the EU irrelevant. I can't express the equasion any more simply, and have already tried to explain why I find it an offensive way to treat one's fans. If you can't understand that, then there's nothing more I can say on the matter...
So, if I understand you right, what the issue is is that:
Lots of fans put money into buying the books and other EU stuff, and time into reading them.
Lots of authors put time and effort into writing said books and other stuff.
Disney declared all that irrelevant. That doesn't change the fact that any of those books which are good will still be good. But it is disrespectful towards the aforementioned fans and authors to arbitrarily tell them that all of the time and effort they put into the franchise is now meaningless.
Kind of a "Terribly sorry old chap, all that stuff you thought happened? It didn't. Those characters you may have gotten to love? They were (possibly) never even born. Look over here. This is our story! This is the only one that really matters!"
That said, given the size of the SW EU, I can still kind of understand why they made that choice, although I thought there were some gaps in the settings of the books and the like that would have been big enough to fit a film into.
Precisely...
As above, I can understand why they did it, or why they might have felt the need to chop some aspects of the EU (as I'm guessing the girl in the trailers is Jaina Solo*) but that doesn't make it any less of a finger to the fans, and IMHO not the way fans should be treated.
*Who actually might no longer exist, of course
As above, it's like the Cameron Diazs and Jason Segels of the world feeling entitled to recogniton and adoration, but not being prepared to put the work in to actually earn fan's respect or loyalty, and it's that lack of appreciation/respect which I find offensive.
You think a book/story cannot be enjoyable unless it ties into the new movies, and if it does not then it is pointless.
I think that a book/story is enjoyable if I enjoy that individual book/story, and the enjoyment that I get out of it is the point of reading.
So you are letting the "canon" label decide whether you enjoy something, rather than the story itself.
It doesn't matter if we agree or not, and I'm not letting the label of canon decide anything. For the third (or is it fourth) time: I don't follow the EU. I can simply understand why those who do, would feel pissed off.
Edit to add
A book story might well be enjoyable if it doesn't tie into the new movie, I'm not decrying its merit as entertainment, I'm talking about the investment which fans have put in over the past 20 odd years...
I like the JJ Abrams Star Trek films because they, in the films, confirm that they exist in an alternate timeline. In Star Trek overall all the novels, comics etc have to do is reference the destruction of Romulus and the disappearance of Spock and then they can say whatever they want.
The difference between Star Trek and Star Wars is that Star Trek thrives on both mature TV and on the big screen: from the sixties to the mid-noughties Star Trek ran almost nonstop.
Star Wars on the other hand had a gap of about twenty years between the two sets of films, time that the fans used to fall in love with the EU. I personally cannot remember whether it was the original trilogy or the EU that got me hooked onto Star Wars but I know that it was the EU that made that relationship grow as the original characters (Luke, Han and Leia, no Chewie because for me he died in 1999) passed the torch to their children.
With the abandonment of the EU the Star Wars I love no longer exists. Star Trek however has become almost exclusively EU: we can only know about the adventures of the TNG, DS9 & VOY crews in novels, comics etc.
Disney is wrong to deny the Star Wars fanbase the solid foundation that kept them going in the dark times between films
It doesn't matter if we agree or not, and I'm not letting the label of canon decide anything. For the third (or is it fourth) time: I don't follow the EU. I can simply understand why those who do, would feel pissed off.
OK, replace "you" with "they" and my point is the same. They are letting the label decide if they enjoy it, rather than the story itself, hence they are letting Disney make up their minds for them.
Man this thread is entertaining so much nerd rage so much anger so much flame oh this is a great little thread oh keep going people the nerd rage is great lol
With the abandonment of the EU the Star Wars I love no longer exists.
It exists as long as you want it to. If you choose to never read those stories again because Disney says they aren't "canon", that is your choice, but not something anyone is forcing on you. I read a lot of those books when I was in school, and they are just as "real" to me as the rest of the completely UNreal fictional story.
On a slightly different note, I am pretty excited to know there is a movie coming out that I have no idea what the story will be. If it were based on an existing book there would be very little mystery going on. But that is a different subject that I discussed above.
Man this thread is entertaining so much nerd rage so much anger so much flame oh this is a great little thread oh keep going people the nerd rage is great lol
Hey OP awesome thread btw very entertaining
Psssst... I'm not even slightly aggravated... A bit bored of the repetition to try and explain what I thought was a simple point, but no nerd rage here...
The characters and stories I have spent the greater majority of my life enjoying have been cast aside like a standard-issue phaser. The money and effort I have expended obtaining a collection that basically spans all of Star Wars history (25,000 years before A NEW HOPE to 45 years after A NEW HOPE) has essentially, because of Disney, been wasted! There will be no new books detailling Jaina Solo's life as the future Empress/Empress-consort or Ben Skywalker's rise within the New Jedi Order (hey guess what I don't have to say spolier because these stories don't matter!) therefore I stand by my comment that the Star Wars I love no longer exists.
Yes the older novels are being reprinted as 'Legends' but, reading these forums, it is very similar to remastering missions: players/fans want new content that advances the story, not the same old stuff they've read but with slight changes!
The characters and stories I have spent the greater majority of my life enjoying have been cast aside like a standard-issue phaser. The money and effort I have expended obtaining a collection that basically spans all of Star Wars history (25,000 years before A NEW HOPE to 45 years after A NEW HOPE) has essentially, because of Disney, been wasted! There will be no new books detailling Jaina Solo's life as the future Empress/Empress-consort therefore I stand by my comment that the Star Wars I love no longer exists.
Like I said, if you choose never to read those stories again, that is your choice to make. But they are still there for anyone else to read and enjoy whenever they want. The one valid point I will concede are ongoing storylines you may not get to see finished, although that may actually happen some day under the "legends" imprint. And if that happens, you can still enjoy them regardless of being called "legends" or not.
How long much longer is the point going to keep being missed here?
As the one who posted this thread, I'll tell you what *my* point is: a label should not decide whether you enjoy something or not. If you read a book and you enjoy the story, great. If you read a book and you don't enjoy the story, oh well. Either way, it is the story itself that should determine whether you enjoy it, not an arbitrary label from Disney.
But we all have free will, so if someone wants to give theirs up and let Disney decide what they enjoy for them, that is their choice to make.
The 'Legends' EU is the only part of Star Wars, in its entirety, that I now choose to enjoy but I will have to get used to not having closure. Karen Traviss, the author behind the Republic Commando novels cancelled her contract with Lucaswhoever over disputes about Mandalorian canon, not being allowed to end that particular storyline properly (It is the same with Sword Of The Jedi and the comics set in 137/8 after A NEW HOPE).
Similarly I choose to leave Disney-Wars (the fact that it is Abrams doesn't have any bearing on my choices) over disputes in canon. The EU was actually a level of canon within the LucasFilm Star Wars that, since the release of Revenge of the Sith, was the dominant story-telling medium.
If Paramount/CBS/who ever holds the reigns to Star Trek turned around and announced a brand-new series/film that rendered every novel, comic, game (including STO) set in the years after 2379 as irrevelant and forced their closure, as Disney has done to every author working on the Star Wars EU, the fans, and players on this forum, would be in uproar.
If Paramount/CBS/who ever holds the reigns to Star Trek turned around and announced a brand-new series/film that rendered every novel, comic, game (including STO) set in the years after 2379 as irrevelant and forced their closure, as Disney has done to every author working on the Star Wars EU, the fans, and players on this forum, would be in uproar.
Would you not agree?
Due to the split ownership of Trek between 2 separate companies, I doubt that could actually happen. But if it could, and if it did, there would surely be some people who were upset. And I would feel exactly the same way as I do about SW's EU. I've read many Trek books that I have enjoyed over the years, and I won't stop enjoying them or try to erase them from my memory because of what X company says about them.
As the one who posted this thread, I'll tell you what *my* point is: a label should not decide whether you enjoy something or not. If you read a book and you enjoy the story, great. If you read a book and you don't enjoy the story, oh well. Either way, it is the story itself that should determine whether you enjoy it, not an arbitrary label from Disney.
But we all have free will, so if someone wants to give theirs up and let Disney decide what they enjoy for them, that is their choice to make.
I haven't actually seen anyone disagree yet with you yet on that score (the posts this far have mostly been based around perceived disrespect on the part of Disney rather than some idea that the stories have suddenly gotten awful or are no longer enjoyable because they aren't 'approved'). An argument of sorts (with both sides seemingly arguing with each other over semi-unrelated issues*) still seems to have started.
*Unrelated to the other's arguments that is, not necessarily to the topic.
Sorry for the tone in that last one, by the way. Posted by accident and then couldn't think of a better way to rephrase it. (And didn't feel like doing a 'please delete/ignore this').
I treat the Star Wars EU in the same way that I treat the JJ Star Trek films, Star Trek novels, and Star Trek Online. They are in parallel universes that have no interaction with each other. It is tragic that there will be no more Star Wars novels in the Expanded Universe, but it doesn't invalidates the stories and that characters that we enjoyed.
It would be nice if Grand Admiral Thrawn and Mara Jade were in the new Star Wars movies, but that is only a personal preference and won't change my opinion of the movie. Adding Jar Jar's descendant or Jar Jar into the movie would change my opinion of the movie.
As the one who posted this thread, I'll tell you what *my* point is: a label should not decide whether you enjoy something or not. If you read a book and you enjoy the story, great. If you read a book and you don't enjoy the story, oh well. Either way, it is the story itself that should determine whether you enjoy it, not an arbitrary label from Disney.
But we all have free will, so if someone wants to give theirs up and let Disney decide what they enjoy for them, that is their choice to make.
No you do keep missing the point.
Its fine to enjoy the stories of the EU even if they are not canon.
But the point is they were marketed at SW fans as Star Wars content.
This wasn't "What if" Star Wars EU. Still was official (as people were told at the time) and the EU was so huge they even had EU encyclopidias (for sale of course)
Some collected and followed those books solely for the fact that they were under the Star Wars Label.
Would these books have sold if they werent affiliated with SW and instead called "Star Warrior's" ?
I think not.
These may be great novels, and very enjoyable reads, even without the Star Wars label. But that is not what people were paying for at the counter.
They were paying for SW.
Not Star Warrior's.
These may be great novels, and very enjoyable reads, even without the Star Wars label. But that is not what people were paying for at the counter.
They were paying for SW.
Not Star Warrior's.
I *get* the point you are making, but I don't *agree* with it. People bought a Star Wars book, read the story, and enjoyed it. They got exactly what they paid for. Just because Disney is now saying those old books are not "canon" does not mean they are not still fun Star Wars stories.
Jurassic Park. I much prefer the movie to the book.
Also while I prefer the novel Dune to the movie Dune, I prefer the Dune miniseries to the book.
I have to agree on JP. Crichton is one of my favorite authors, and the book was great in it's own right, but that first movie was a masterpiece(to me).
Jurassic Park. I much prefer the movie to the book.
I have a long history with this one, cause I've read JP at least five times over the years, which is more than I've read any other novel. The first time I read it (tried is a better word) I was in fourth or fifth grade and, obviously, didn't understand a large portion of it, infact I skipped almost all of Malcom's dialog.
The next time I read it I was in high school, and I honostly felt both were great in their own way, and were therfore equally good. In recent rereads, however, I can't help but feel it would have been better as a 2.5 - 3 hour movie. There are so many things that were left out that I now wish had made it in, from the number of people on the island to the more elaborate series of events following the raptors escape.
I *get* the point you are making, but I don't *agree* with it. People bought a Star Wars book, read the story, and enjoyed it. They got exactly what they paid for. Just because Disney is now saying those old books are not "canon" does not mean they are not still fun Star Wars stories.
And no one's saying that they are not still enjoyable stories, people are saying that they feel cheated by the franchise owners! Why is that so difficult for you to accept? You might not feel the same way, but why can you not understand that that is the opinion which they hold, and accept that?
And no one's saying that they are not still enjoyable stories, people are saying that they feel cheated by the franchise owners! Why is that so difficult for you to accept? You might not feel the same way, but why can you not understand that that is the opinion which they hold, and accept that?
I never said I don't "accept" it, I said I don't "agree" with it. You are arguing with me over something I did not actually say. As far as feeling "cheated", my question is "how"? If you bought a Star Wars book, and enjoyed reading a Star Wars book, where did the "cheat" come in? Or did someone really believe that once a book was printed that Lucas would never ever do anything later that might be different from what that book says?
I never said I don't "accept" it, I said I don't "agree" with it. You are arguing with me over something I did not actually say. As far as feeling "cheated", my question is "how"? If you bought a Star Wars book, and enjoyed reading a Star Wars book, where did the "cheat" come in? Or did someone really believe that once a book was printed that Lucas would never ever do anything later that might be different from what that book says?
It has already been explained to you, several times, both by myself and others where the cheat comes in, but you seem determined to deliberately ignore it and claim to either not agree, or not understand. For the final time, the 'cheat', is from the disrespect on the part of the franchise owners by invalidating everything which they sold under the Star Wars banner in the last 20 years, and are now effectively wiping their hands of. If you genuinely don't understand why that pisses some people off, you never will, or you are simply trolling for responses. Either way, I'm done wasting my time engaging you on the topic.
Honestly, I would've been surprised if they DIDN'T drop all of the EU when they started making this film.
SW was suffering from 'canon-bloat', simple as that. Comic book universes deal with the same thing, which is why you hear of them going through 'reboots' to in a way, hit a universe-wide 'restart button' to let everything be told again or open up for new stories.
Though in a way, it's still suffering the same issue of 'bloat', merely now it's non-canon 'bloat'.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I just pretend canon things I don't like either go the way I want them to or ignore them. Worf has killed a lot more people in my mind then in canon's writings.
The SW EU books still exist. They still tell a story in a (semi)coherent timeline. The fact that said timeline differs from the "canon" one shortly after the end of Return of the Jedi is irrelevant.
And if you're getting all bent out of shape because the timeline you loved so much is now different from the movie timeline, well, I suggest that perhaps you've lost a certain sense of proportion. (I also suggest you're part of the problem, as you're likely to have been one of the people howling for someone's blood if the next movie weren't the beginning of the Thrawn Trilogy. When canon becomes a straitjacket, it must be removed.)
Now, I understand being a little miffed because the story you were following seems fated to remain incomplete. On the other hand, maybe you should go tell the Browncoats over there how upset you are about your favorite universe being cancelled - after who knows how many dozens of novels.
Man this thread is entertaining so much nerd rage so much anger so much flame oh this is a great little thread oh keep going people the nerd rage is great lol
Hey OP awesome thread btw very entertaining
Is there rage? Because this thread is quite mellow compared to practically every thread in the General or Faction Subforums. Your'e trying to call a lit match in the middle of the sahara desert a forest fire.
Comments
It is scrubbed, because they apparently have no relevance to the new continuity... Doesn't matter who's doing the telling, be it Disney, JJ or Lucas himself. The fact remains, that Episode VII is going in its own direction, and will not be taking the EU into account, ergo making the EU irrelevant. I can't express the equasion any more simply, and have already tried to explain why I find it an offensive way to treat one's fans. If you can't understand that, then there's nothing more I can say on the matter...
Here is the key point we disagree on:
You think a book/story is pointless and cannot be enjoyable unless it ties into the new movies.
I think that the point of reading a fiction book is to be entertained, and that as long as it is a good story then I can enjoy it and be entertained.
So you are letting the "canon" label decide whether you enjoy something, rather than the story itself.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
As above, I can understand why they did it, or why they might have felt the need to chop some aspects of the EU (as I'm guessing the girl in the trailers is Jaina Solo*) but that doesn't make it any less of a finger to the fans, and IMHO not the way fans should be treated.
*Who actually might no longer exist, of course
As above, it's like the Cameron Diazs and Jason Segels of the world feeling entitled to recogniton and adoration, but not being prepared to put the work in to actually earn fan's respect or loyalty, and it's that lack of appreciation/respect which I find offensive.
Edit to add
A book story might well be enjoyable if it doesn't tie into the new movie, I'm not decrying its merit as entertainment, I'm talking about the investment which fans have put in over the past 20 odd years...
Edited again to add
As dmt points out below...
The difference between Star Trek and Star Wars is that Star Trek thrives on both mature TV and on the big screen: from the sixties to the mid-noughties Star Trek ran almost nonstop.
Star Wars on the other hand had a gap of about twenty years between the two sets of films, time that the fans used to fall in love with the EU. I personally cannot remember whether it was the original trilogy or the EU that got me hooked onto Star Wars but I know that it was the EU that made that relationship grow as the original characters (Luke, Han and Leia, no Chewie because for me he died in 1999) passed the torch to their children.
With the abandonment of the EU the Star Wars I love no longer exists. Star Trek however has become almost exclusively EU: we can only know about the adventures of the TNG, DS9 & VOY crews in novels, comics etc.
Disney is wrong to deny the Star Wars fanbase the solid foundation that kept them going in the dark times between films
Pray that Star Trek never makes the same mistake!
OK, replace "you" with "they" and my point is the same. They are letting the label decide if they enjoy it, rather than the story itself, hence they are letting Disney make up their minds for them.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Read the above comment by dmt... It's not about 'enjoyment', it's about being shat on by a franchise they have supported for two decades...
Hey OP awesome thread btw very entertaining
It exists as long as you want it to. If you choose to never read those stories again because Disney says they aren't "canon", that is your choice, but not something anyone is forcing on you. I read a lot of those books when I was in school, and they are just as "real" to me as the rest of the completely UNreal fictional story.
On a slightly different note, I am pretty excited to know there is a movie coming out that I have no idea what the story will be. If it were based on an existing book there would be very little mystery going on. But that is a different subject that I discussed above.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Psssst... I'm not even slightly aggravated... A bit bored of the repetition to try and explain what I thought was a simple point, but no nerd rage here...
Oh what the hell...
F*CK YOU JJ ABRAMS!!!!!!!!!!
Yes the older novels are being reprinted as 'Legends' but, reading these forums, it is very similar to remastering missions: players/fans want new content that advances the story, not the same old stuff they've read but with slight changes!
Like I said, if you choose never to read those stories again, that is your choice to make. But they are still there for anyone else to read and enjoy whenever they want. The one valid point I will concede are ongoing storylines you may not get to see finished, although that may actually happen some day under the "legends" imprint. And if that happens, you can still enjoy them regardless of being called "legends" or not.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
As the one who posted this thread, I'll tell you what *my* point is: a label should not decide whether you enjoy something or not. If you read a book and you enjoy the story, great. If you read a book and you don't enjoy the story, oh well. Either way, it is the story itself that should determine whether you enjoy it, not an arbitrary label from Disney.
But we all have free will, so if someone wants to give theirs up and let Disney decide what they enjoy for them, that is their choice to make.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Similarly I choose to leave Disney-Wars (the fact that it is Abrams doesn't have any bearing on my choices) over disputes in canon. The EU was actually a level of canon within the LucasFilm Star Wars that, since the release of Revenge of the Sith, was the dominant story-telling medium.
If Paramount/CBS/who ever holds the reigns to Star Trek turned around and announced a brand-new series/film that rendered every novel, comic, game (including STO) set in the years after 2379 as irrevelant and forced their closure, as Disney has done to every author working on the Star Wars EU, the fans, and players on this forum, would be in uproar.
Would you not agree?
Due to the split ownership of Trek between 2 separate companies, I doubt that could actually happen. But if it could, and if it did, there would surely be some people who were upset. And I would feel exactly the same way as I do about SW's EU. I've read many Trek books that I have enjoyed over the years, and I won't stop enjoying them or try to erase them from my memory because of what X company says about them.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I haven't actually seen anyone disagree yet with you yet on that score (the posts this far have mostly been based around perceived disrespect on the part of Disney rather than some idea that the stories have suddenly gotten awful or are no longer enjoyable because they aren't 'approved'). An argument of sorts (with both sides seemingly arguing with each other over semi-unrelated issues*) still seems to have started.
*Unrelated to the other's arguments that is, not necessarily to the topic.
Sorry for the tone in that last one, by the way. Posted by accident and then couldn't think of a better way to rephrase it. (And didn't feel like doing a 'please delete/ignore this').
It would be nice if Grand Admiral Thrawn and Mara Jade were in the new Star Wars movies, but that is only a personal preference and won't change my opinion of the movie. Adding Jar Jar's descendant or Jar Jar into the movie would change my opinion of the movie.
No you do keep missing the point.
Its fine to enjoy the stories of the EU even if they are not canon.
But the point is they were marketed at SW fans as Star Wars content.
This wasn't "What if" Star Wars EU. Still was official (as people were told at the time) and the EU was so huge they even had EU encyclopidias (for sale of course)
Some collected and followed those books solely for the fact that they were under the Star Wars Label.
Would these books have sold if they werent affiliated with SW and instead called "Star Warrior's" ?
I think not.
These may be great novels, and very enjoyable reads, even without the Star Wars label. But that is not what people were paying for at the counter.
They were paying for SW.
Not Star Warrior's.
Jurassic Park. I much prefer the movie to the book.
Also while I prefer the novel Dune to the movie Dune, I prefer the Dune miniseries to the book.
I *get* the point you are making, but I don't *agree* with it. People bought a Star Wars book, read the story, and enjoyed it. They got exactly what they paid for. Just because Disney is now saying those old books are not "canon" does not mean they are not still fun Star Wars stories.
I have to agree on JP. Crichton is one of my favorite authors, and the book was great in it's own right, but that first movie was a masterpiece(to me).
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I have a long history with this one, cause I've read JP at least five times over the years, which is more than I've read any other novel. The first time I read it (tried is a better word) I was in fourth or fifth grade and, obviously, didn't understand a large portion of it, infact I skipped almost all of Malcom's dialog.
The next time I read it I was in high school, and I honostly felt both were great in their own way, and were therfore equally good. In recent rereads, however, I can't help but feel it would have been better as a 2.5 - 3 hour movie. There are so many things that were left out that I now wish had made it in, from the number of people on the island to the more elaborate series of events following the raptors escape.
And no one's saying that they are not still enjoyable stories, people are saying that they feel cheated by the franchise owners! Why is that so difficult for you to accept? You might not feel the same way, but why can you not understand that that is the opinion which they hold, and accept that?
I never said I don't "accept" it, I said I don't "agree" with it. You are arguing with me over something I did not actually say. As far as feeling "cheated", my question is "how"? If you bought a Star Wars book, and enjoyed reading a Star Wars book, where did the "cheat" come in? Or did someone really believe that once a book was printed that Lucas would never ever do anything later that might be different from what that book says?
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
SW was suffering from 'canon-bloat', simple as that. Comic book universes deal with the same thing, which is why you hear of them going through 'reboots' to in a way, hit a universe-wide 'restart button' to let everything be told again or open up for new stories.
Though in a way, it's still suffering the same issue of 'bloat', merely now it's non-canon 'bloat'.
And if you're getting all bent out of shape because the timeline you loved so much is now different from the movie timeline, well, I suggest that perhaps you've lost a certain sense of proportion. (I also suggest you're part of the problem, as you're likely to have been one of the people howling for someone's blood if the next movie weren't the beginning of the Thrawn Trilogy. When canon becomes a straitjacket, it must be removed.)
Now, I understand being a little miffed because the story you were following seems fated to remain incomplete. On the other hand, maybe you should go tell the Browncoats over there how upset you are about your favorite universe being cancelled - after who knows how many dozens of novels.
Is there rage? Because this thread is quite mellow compared to practically every thread in the General or Faction Subforums. Your'e trying to call a lit match in the middle of the sahara desert a forest fire.