Star Trek is very good at dealing with changes to reality (TNG: PARALLELS & the MirrorVerse)
Star Trek has a prime universe (1966 - 2005: 5 tv shows & 10 films) that is canon and therefore DICTATES what can and can't happen elsewhere (Destruction of Romulus in 2387 is main example)
It also has three non-canon universes: the novelverse, (where a cold war currently exists between Khitomer Alliance and Typhon Pact following the total removal of the Borg from the universe), multiple gameverses (now primarily STO), & the comicverse.
JJTrek, the fifth Star Trek universe to exist, is a parallel universe made canon but not beholden to any established canon bar what was set up during Star Trek Enterprise.
Due to the way Star Trek uses alternate universes I can accept that the Borg exist in one and not the other.
However Star Wars has never used the idea of parallel universes, alternate timelines etc. They have told a consistent story.
Pre-Disney Star Wars only had canon as a reference, not like Star Trek which is strict, because Star Wars existed so much as an EU.
The OP asked why we should care that Disney has invalidated the novels and comics on our shelves.
My personal answer, and my final comment, is that Star Wars wouldn't be around if it weren't for the EU. Without the Thrawn Trilogy, the X-Wing series and the rest that were released between RETURN OF THE JEDI & A PHANTOM MENANCE Star Wars might have never returned for the prequel trilogy. Without the New Jedi Order and the Legacy of the Force series Star Wars might have never generated enough fanbase to be seen by Disney as the next big CASHCOW. But by invalidating the stories told when George Lucas wasn't making films, by removing the bedrock of the fanbase Disney has lost customers.
First, incorporating the EU into a new set of movies would be an IP rights nightmare - opening the floodgates for six bajillion lawsuits alleging "you used my original characters/situations/settings/dishcloths in ways not specified by my novel's contract, I demand compensation".
Second, Disney have just got themselves a director and a writing team (at, no doubt, some expense to themselves), and presumably want their story and their artistic vision, which they won't get if the story has to be confined to an established EU continuity that's effectively been written by a committee.
So, on those grounds alone, as soon as the new movies were announced, the EU was bound to stop being canon.
(Count me among those who don't see it makes a blind bit of difference to the EU books anyway - they're still there, people didn't retrospectively un-enjoy them, and Ben Skywalker and Jaina Solo are still exactly as real as Luke and Han ever were.)
Oh, I thought of a few other things that I prefer the movie version of as compared to the book version:
- Jaws
- Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets and Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince
- Die Hard (based off of a novel entitled Nothing Lasts Forever)
- All James Bond movies that are based off of James Bond novels, though particular note goes to Goldfinger for the movie version both pointing out how utterly implausible book-Goldfinger's plan is, and coming up with a much more sensible, actually ingenious plan (taking the genre into account) for movie-Goldfinger, all in the same scene.
- First Blood
- The Lord of the Rings is a very long, very boring book that suffers from having Tom Bombadil in it. The movies are very long, but they are not boring, and do not have Tom Bombadil in them. Ipso facto...
- The Silence of the Lambs
- The Princess Bride
- Angels & Demons (but not The da Vinci Code)
In many ways I agree with the OP here: I have always been a fan of the EU, and what Disney did is not going to change that. However, the main thing that really irks me about the whole thing is that they froze production on any new EU material. They could have done like say Marvel (which has the cinematic and comic book universes existing simultaneously) and had both their version and Legends being produced at the same time. Everyone's happy, everyone wins. Instead what they do is show a casual disregard for the only thing that kept Star Wars alive for the years it was off the air and completely cut it off mid-story.
Oh, I thought of a few other things that I prefer the movie version of as compared to the book version:
- Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets and Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince
- The Lord of the Rings is a very long, very boring book that suffers from having Tom Bombadil in it. The movies are very long, but they are not boring, and do not have Tom Bombadil in them. Ipso facto...
I agree 100% on Lord of the Rings. I tried so hard to read Fellowship, and just could not stop falling asleep once I got to the forest they meet Tom Bombadil in. I had some trouble before that, but that section sealed the deal. Eventually I decided that Tolkien just spends too much time describing the surroundings (pages and pages ...), and not enough time on character actions and interactions.
I disagree on Harry Potter though, I just can't see how any true fan can enjoy the movies more than the books. They are good, don't get me wrong, and the first two are very faithful. The problem, for me, is that starting with Prisoner of Azkaban there are numerous plot points that are completely left out. I know I know, you can't keep everything, and those books are long enough for 2 movies each, but to me that limitation is what makes all 7 books better by default, regardless of how good the movies are.
I disagree on Harry Potter though, I just can't see how any true fan can enjoy the movies more than the books.
I absolutely cannot stand that kind of attitude, because it is the cancer of fan communities. Just because someone enjoys a movie more than a book does not mean they are not a "true fan", or any less of a fan than you.
I absolutely cannot stand that kind of attitude, because it is the cancer of fan communities. Just because someone enjoys a movie more than a book does not mean they are not a "true fan", or any less of a fan than you.
I'm 50/50 on the issue, especially Harry Potter... I've seen the last few films and enjoyed them. I liked Daniel Radcliffe in Woman in Black, so appreciate him as an actor, not just as Harry Potter. I wouldn't want to read any of the books though, and wouldn't really call myself a fan (although an online quiz said I would be in Slytherin house, and I would wear a house tie if going to a costume party) I'd happily acknowledge that someone else could be 'more of a fan' than me :cool:
I'd happily acknowledge that someone else could be 'more of a fan' than me :cool:
First, he said "any true fan", so he was not only talking about just you. Second, it's fine if you want to give someone else props and say they are "more of a fan" than you; that is a positive exchange. But the reverse is not cool, because you are diminishing someone else because they do not agree with you on some fictional issue. It's a terrible attitude. Like I said; the cancer of fan communities.
First, he said "any true fan", so he was not only talking about just you. Second, it's fine if you want to give someone else props and say they are "more of a fan" than you; that is a positive exchange. But the reverse is not cool, because you are diminishing someone else because they do not agree with you on some fictional issue. It's a terrible attitude. Like I said; the cancer of fan communities.
Yeah, I know what you mean, people like that are pretty toxic...
Yeah, I know what you mean, people like that are pretty toxic...
To be fair, you cannot always judge the person as a whole based on one comment they make; that is why I said "attitude" in my previous post, not "person". People do not always have the same attitude all the time.
To be fair, you cannot always judge the person as a whole based on one comment they make; that is why I said "attitude" in my previous post, not "person". People do not always have the same attitude all the time.
I absolutely cannot stand that kind of attitude, because it is the cancer of fan communities. Just because someone enjoys a movie more than a book does not mean they are not a "true fan", or any less of a fan than you.
Wow wow wow, please don't blow what I was saying out of proportion. I probably used poor word choice there. I wasn't trying to say anyone was not a true fan, basically I just don't understand how someone would like the movie more than the book. I personally enjoy both, but for the reasons I stated before I feel the books are better, if even only slightly.
I apologize if I offended anyone, that was not my intention.
Wow wow wow, please don't blow what I was saying out of proportion. I probably used poor word choice there. I wasn't trying to say anyone was not a true fan, basically I just don't understand how someone would like the movie more than the book. I personally enjoy both, but for the reasons I stated before I feel the books are better, if even only slightly.
I apologize if I offended anyone, that was not my intention.
In retrospect I think my post was a bit of an overreaction, so I apologize as well. Someone else said something similar yesterday, so I was bringing some of that baggage into my reply.
Wow wow wow, please don't blow what I was saying out of proportion. I probably used poor word choice there. I wasn't trying to say anyone was not a true fan, basically I just don't understand how someone would like the movie more than the book. I personally enjoy both, but for the reasons I stated before I feel the books are better, if even only slightly.
I apologize if I offended anyone, that was not my intention.
I wasn't offended at all... I haven't actually read the books -- and actually don't want to, same as I don't want to ever read anything by Tolkien -- but I enjoyed the movies I saw (but as above, I would not identify myself as a Harry Potter Fan) I thought the Twilight movie was better than the book (which I put down after a page) and same for the Devil Wears Prada, but those're the only examples I can quickly think of where I prefered the film to the book. Equally, for the record, I wouldn't call myself a Star Wars fan either...
The problem of something no longer being canon is that it means characters and plot developments you liked will most likely never be picked up again.
The Zahn trilogy will always remain a great piece of Star Wars fiction, even if its no longer canon. But if it's no longer canon, Paelleon, Mara Jade, Talon Karrde - they won't be used again.
It is a bit like having a TV show you like being cancelled. There will still be other good TV shows, interesting characters, but these particular ones, they won't come back, and you didn't get to see a proper series finale.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Ok I admit the title was kind of an exaggeration. Canon doesn't completely suck, and serves a very important purpose: to have a consistent story. If there was no canon, then every episode/movie could completely contradict the last, and there would be no consistent story because there would be no "rules" you had to follow.
That said, there is one big reason I think "canon" sucks, and it is because it kills a lot of people's fun. If X company says a certain book is canon, fanboy joe can't want to get his hand's on it. On the other hand, if X company says a certain book is *not* canon, fanboy joe says it isn't worth his time to read. But whether X company says it is canon or not, the book is still the same story that fanboy joe would(or would not have) enjoyed either way!
Getting to the point: yes, canon matters to keep a franchise consistent. But I don't think we should let canon ruin our fun. A lot of people were sad when Disney said the EU wasn't canon anymore, but so what? If you enjoy the books, comics, etc, then who cares if they say it's canon or not? If you enjoy it, that is all that really matters
LOL just where to start..... if i did then it would go over your head so theres no point trying to explain to you but thank you for the laugh.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wanted to beat the Delta Meme n00bs LOL
Join Date a player made up is NOT correct!
"Canon" has acquired so many emotional overtones over the years in Star Trek, it no longer really means anything.
Especially when applied to related products such as STO.
Canon and STO in the same sentence is a 4 letter word.................
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
LOL wow you are so wrong. I would explain why, but it would just go over your head, so theres no point. But thanks for the laugh! LOLZ
/\ See, I can make a silly reply too.
whats your nickname would it be polly by any chance LOL as all you did is repeat me.... if you cant think of anything good to say dont reply simples. and clearly my reply went over your head troll.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wanted to beat the Delta Meme n00bs LOL
Join Date a player made up is NOT correct!
I *get* the point you are making, but I don't *agree* with it. People bought a Star Wars book, read the story, and enjoyed it. They got exactly what they paid for. Just because Disney is now saying those old books are not "canon" does not mean they are not still fun Star Wars stories.
******************************************************
Yeah I get that sentiment.
I read at least 15 - 20 EU novels, still have them all in fact. I did enjoy each of them, I was quite addicted to reading them for a time.
Personally, I'm not upset with the "Legends" label being added, isnt a big deal, and many make a good point that the EU had become so bloated, it was probably best that it was relegated to "Legends" status.
I guess my issue is that they should have been published as "What If" , "Legends" stories to begin with.
It just gives the impression the company had no foresight, into what the future might bring.
And seems to me they were using the EU to attract SW fans back into the IP.
Then when it suits them 20 years later, they say, "No,no,no none of that actually happened."
"We know WE said this was all legitimate canon at the time of sale, but now, we changed our mind."
Its like the boy who cried wolf, at one point people won't show up anymore. If everything can just be undone on a whim, then the integrity of the IP comes into question.
So I can see why this would bother some fans.
But your right, nothing can take away the enjoyment I got from reading them. I just wish they would e been labeled as "Legends" from the get go.
I suppose the IP knew there was lots of potential income from milking the series, so never bothered to take any precautions or make restrictions on their EU.
Comments
Star Trek is very good at dealing with changes to reality (TNG: PARALLELS & the MirrorVerse)
Star Trek has a prime universe (1966 - 2005: 5 tv shows & 10 films) that is canon and therefore DICTATES what can and can't happen elsewhere (Destruction of Romulus in 2387 is main example)
It also has three non-canon universes: the novelverse, (where a cold war currently exists between Khitomer Alliance and Typhon Pact following the total removal of the Borg from the universe), multiple gameverses (now primarily STO), & the comicverse.
JJTrek, the fifth Star Trek universe to exist, is a parallel universe made canon but not beholden to any established canon bar what was set up during Star Trek Enterprise.
Due to the way Star Trek uses alternate universes I can accept that the Borg exist in one and not the other.
However Star Wars has never used the idea of parallel universes, alternate timelines etc. They have told a consistent story.
Pre-Disney Star Wars only had canon as a reference, not like Star Trek which is strict, because Star Wars existed so much as an EU.
The OP asked why we should care that Disney has invalidated the novels and comics on our shelves.
My personal answer, and my final comment, is that Star Wars wouldn't be around if it weren't for the EU. Without the Thrawn Trilogy, the X-Wing series and the rest that were released between RETURN OF THE JEDI & A PHANTOM MENANCE Star Wars might have never returned for the prequel trilogy. Without the New Jedi Order and the Legacy of the Force series Star Wars might have never generated enough fanbase to be seen by Disney as the next big CASHCOW. But by invalidating the stories told when George Lucas wasn't making films, by removing the bedrock of the fanbase Disney has lost customers.
First, incorporating the EU into a new set of movies would be an IP rights nightmare - opening the floodgates for six bajillion lawsuits alleging "you used my original characters/situations/settings/dishcloths in ways not specified by my novel's contract, I demand compensation".
Second, Disney have just got themselves a director and a writing team (at, no doubt, some expense to themselves), and presumably want their story and their artistic vision, which they won't get if the story has to be confined to an established EU continuity that's effectively been written by a committee.
So, on those grounds alone, as soon as the new movies were announced, the EU was bound to stop being canon.
(Count me among those who don't see it makes a blind bit of difference to the EU books anyway - they're still there, people didn't retrospectively un-enjoy them, and Ben Skywalker and Jaina Solo are still exactly as real as Luke and Han ever were.)
- Jaws
- Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets and Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince
- Die Hard (based off of a novel entitled Nothing Lasts Forever)
- All James Bond movies that are based off of James Bond novels, though particular note goes to Goldfinger for the movie version both pointing out how utterly implausible book-Goldfinger's plan is, and coming up with a much more sensible, actually ingenious plan (taking the genre into account) for movie-Goldfinger, all in the same scene.
- First Blood
- The Lord of the Rings is a very long, very boring book that suffers from having Tom Bombadil in it. The movies are very long, but they are not boring, and do not have Tom Bombadil in them. Ipso facto...
- The Silence of the Lambs
- The Princess Bride
- Angels & Demons (but not The da Vinci Code)
I agree 100% on Lord of the Rings. I tried so hard to read Fellowship, and just could not stop falling asleep once I got to the forest they meet Tom Bombadil in. I had some trouble before that, but that section sealed the deal. Eventually I decided that Tolkien just spends too much time describing the surroundings (pages and pages ...), and not enough time on character actions and interactions.
I disagree on Harry Potter though, I just can't see how any true fan can enjoy the movies more than the books. They are good, don't get me wrong, and the first two are very faithful. The problem, for me, is that starting with Prisoner of Azkaban there are numerous plot points that are completely left out. I know I know, you can't keep everything, and those books are long enough for 2 movies each, but to me that limitation is what makes all 7 books better by default, regardless of how good the movies are.
I absolutely cannot stand that kind of attitude, because it is the cancer of fan communities. Just because someone enjoys a movie more than a book does not mean they are not a "true fan", or any less of a fan than you.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I'm 50/50 on the issue, especially Harry Potter... I've seen the last few films and enjoyed them. I liked Daniel Radcliffe in Woman in Black, so appreciate him as an actor, not just as Harry Potter. I wouldn't want to read any of the books though, and wouldn't really call myself a fan (although an online quiz said I would be in Slytherin house, and I would wear a house tie if going to a costume party) I'd happily acknowledge that someone else could be 'more of a fan' than me :cool:
First, he said "any true fan", so he was not only talking about just you. Second, it's fine if you want to give someone else props and say they are "more of a fan" than you; that is a positive exchange. But the reverse is not cool, because you are diminishing someone else because they do not agree with you on some fictional issue. It's a terrible attitude. Like I said; the cancer of fan communities.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Yeah, I know what you mean, people like that are pretty toxic...
Want to quote my last post on the topic as well?
To be fair, you cannot always judge the person as a whole based on one comment they make; that is why I said "attitude" in my previous post, not "person". People do not always have the same attitude all the time.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
That's very true...
Wow wow wow, please don't blow what I was saying out of proportion. I probably used poor word choice there. I wasn't trying to say anyone was not a true fan, basically I just don't understand how someone would like the movie more than the book. I personally enjoy both, but for the reasons I stated before I feel the books are better, if even only slightly.
I apologize if I offended anyone, that was not my intention.
In retrospect I think my post was a bit of an overreaction, so I apologize as well. Someone else said something similar yesterday, so I was bringing some of that baggage into my reply.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
The Zahn trilogy will always remain a great piece of Star Wars fiction, even if its no longer canon. But if it's no longer canon, Paelleon, Mara Jade, Talon Karrde - they won't be used again.
It is a bit like having a TV show you like being cancelled. There will still be other good TV shows, interesting characters, but these particular ones, they won't come back, and you didn't get to see a proper series finale.
LOL just where to start..... if i did then it would go over your head so theres no point trying to explain to you but thank you for the laugh.
wanted to beat the Delta Meme n00bs LOL
Join Date a player made up is NOT correct!
Especially when applied to related products such as STO.
Canon and STO in the same sentence is a 4 letter word.................
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
LOL wow you are so wrong. I would explain why, but it would just go over your head, so theres no point. But thanks for the laugh! LOLZ
/\ See, I can make a silly reply too.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
whats your nickname would it be polly by any chance LOL as all you did is repeat me.... if you cant think of anything good to say dont reply simples. and clearly my reply went over your head troll.
wanted to beat the Delta Meme n00bs LOL
Join Date a player made up is NOT correct!
Too bad you arent following your own advise :P
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
what was that polly? want a cracker?
wanted to beat the Delta Meme n00bs LOL
Join Date a player made up is NOT correct!
Yes, I do. And hurry up, I don't have all day.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
polly will get it when its given to polly.
wanted to beat the Delta Meme n00bs LOL
Join Date a player made up is NOT correct!
*grabs popcorn*
Ah, I see. All talk and no action. I should have known
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
no you dont see polly, demanding little birds get their neck snapped LOL... now polly your not worth that as its beneath me.
wanted to beat the Delta Meme n00bs LOL
Join Date a player made up is NOT correct!