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ST/SW/Etc: Why "canon" sucks
thegrandnagus1
Member Posts: 5,166 Arc User
Ok I admit the title was kind of an exaggeration. Canon doesn't completely suck, and serves a very important purpose: to have a consistent story. If there was no canon, then every episode/movie could completely contradict the last, and there would be no consistent story because there would be no "rules" you had to follow.
That said, there is one big reason I think "canon" sucks, and it is because it kills a lot of people's fun. If X company says a certain book is canon, fanboy joe can't want to get his hand's on it. On the other hand, if X company says a certain book is *not* canon, fanboy joe says it isn't worth his time to read. But whether X company says it is canon or not, the book is still the same story that fanboy joe would(or would not have) enjoyed either way!
Getting to the point: yes, canon matters to keep a franchise consistent. But I don't think we should let canon ruin our fun. A lot of people were sad when Disney said the EU wasn't canon anymore, but so what? If you enjoy the books, comics, etc, then who cares if they say it's canon or not? If you enjoy it, that is all that really matters
That said, there is one big reason I think "canon" sucks, and it is because it kills a lot of people's fun. If X company says a certain book is canon, fanboy joe can't want to get his hand's on it. On the other hand, if X company says a certain book is *not* canon, fanboy joe says it isn't worth his time to read. But whether X company says it is canon or not, the book is still the same story that fanboy joe would(or would not have) enjoyed either way!
Getting to the point: yes, canon matters to keep a franchise consistent. But I don't think we should let canon ruin our fun. A lot of people were sad when Disney said the EU wasn't canon anymore, but so what? If you enjoy the books, comics, etc, then who cares if they say it's canon or not? If you enjoy it, that is all that really matters
Post edited by thegrandnagus1 on
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In-show continuity is vital. Play within the rules of your sandbox... it makes for a better story.
Cross-show continuity, or franchise-wide continuity, is VERY difficult to pull off. It can be VERY rewarding, but vigilance is essential here. I would even say that over time, it becomes a kind of "diminishing returns" type thing. At some point, you may just need a new sandbox to play in.
I'll be very curious to see how Marvel fares in this discussion. Right now, they're killing it... but, that could change on a dime.
I agree with all of this, although this is not really the point I was trying to make. My point is that just because something is not "canon" does not mean you cannot still enjoy it. That is all
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Sandbox and constraints have some advantages and disadvantages, but it's important to stick to one or the other. I'm a tiny bit bitter about Star Wars.
I think the bit with the EU in particular that stuck for me was that for years the stories had been 'these pretty much flow into what you see on screen'.
Now it isn't. "What else don't they care about, after the cohesive universe we'd been buying made it an attractive enough intellectual property to be bought out?" was the follow-up question in my mind.
I'm assuming that for Marvel, at least some heroes are going to have to be sent out of New York as their home city so they don't trip over each other quite as badly.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
I'm perfectly fine with Disney not being pigeonholed into bringing the existing EU to film. Grand Admiral Thrawn is more menacing and calculating in my imagination than anything JJ Abrams could bring to life.
The space battles established in the books are far more exciting and epic in my mind than anything seen on film.
I'm also perfectly fine with people complaining about the EU being tucked away somewhere else, instead of people complaining about how JJ Abrams got the Thrawn Trilogy or the Yuuzhan Vong War wrong, or how whoever is playing Mara Jade or Jaina and Jacen Solo are the worst possible choices for the roles and how their acting in the films didn't do the characters in the books justice.
However, I understood that the shows were under no obligation to follow the novels, even the really good ones. (That way they also didn't have to include Marshak and Culbreath's borderline slashfic...) Didn't diminish the novels in the least, in my opinion, and I like the nods STO gives to them (when you're talking with what's-his-name, K'valk I think, aboard the Targ, he complains about being manipulated "like pieces in a klin zha game," for instance).
There are also two IKS Klinzhai's in the game. I, for, one don't really get bothered in the On-screen vs books vs video games. They are all Star Trek. Given that the Devs take nods similarly with what we seen in the game, its good.
I agree that Canon sucks as in how fans use the term. Though in today's culture, inter-connectivity is the key. This started with Trek novels fifteen years ago. In Star Wars EU, they connected loosely but followed similar rules.
And Star Wars EU fans do have good reason to be upset. The old EU stopped with no ending, and books that were very close to publishing were simply canceled, unresolved plot points simply abandoned. I wish I had the time and energy to write a fan fiction ending, but I just don't, though I do have some ideas.
the star wars EU is massive taking place over 1000 of years, hell the old republic MMO was cannon and didn't effect anything that took place in the clone wars yet Disney gutted that to.
But what worries me the most is what will they replace it with?
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
I was neutral about that whole sweeping Star Wars EU under the rug type of deal. Simply because Star Wars EU material had gotten so expansive, so fat, and with too many dumb elements. The IP was unlike Star Trek. Everything that came out, books, games, whatever, was considered canon. Star Trek in contrast was very restrictive. Movies, TV, or GTFO.
I love Grand Admiral Thrawn and some of the things introduced in SW EU. But for every cool addition like Thrawn, you had a dozen dumb things. When I used to read something like Wookiepedia all the time as a big Star Wars fan, most of the TRIBBLE I read that was considered canon made me Quadruple Facepalm.
I get the reasons for both Star Wars and Star Trek in how they handled what was canon.
As for JJ / Disney sweeping old EU stuff under, I can understand. Again, SW EU is a big huge bloated mess. JJ wanted to do movies with the Original Trilogy characters and if he stuck to the restrictions of then-existing EU material, he'd be trying to making this movie bound and gagged at a chair.
As long as JJ doesn't desecrate Star Wars movie stuff, esp Original Trilogy, he can do whatever the hell he wants, IMO.
However, I think to wipe out the EU is disrespectful to the emotional investment fans have put into it over the last twenty or so years. The idea of canon doesn't even come into the equasion as far as I'm concerned, because it's not a case of who fired first, or if Boba got out of the Sarlaac, it's essentially saying "Everything you took the time to read, to learn, to appreciate in those books? Forget it... None of it meant sh*t..."
That it was apparently Disney's choice rather than JJ's to do it, I'll spare my usual loathing for the hack, and how this would fit his pattern of work. I just hope that some of the characters, like the Solo kids are kept, simply because people have invested in them, and I think it's arrogant and wrong to just say "Nah, doesn't matter..." and expect people to keep buying it, and I think that's wrong...
My question is, why do you care so much about what Disney says? Those books and stories still exist; no one is burning them. If you enjoyed them before you can still enjoy them now. Disney can't control your mind, unless you let them.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Tell that to all the trek TOS purists who say things like the Voth and their dinos are not Trek despite the whole concept of "IDIC" they preach.
And the movies would inevitably fall short, because there are limits to what can be depicted onscreen, and because the screenwriters' interpretation of a scene might not be the same as yours - and there would be howls of outrage every time visions deviated.
No, stripping the EU off into its own branch timeline was really the best solution; existing canon was choking the franchise to death. I tried picking up one of the novels once, apparently fairly late in the Yuuzhan Vong war; without a thorough knowledge of the preceding novels, however, it was pretty doggone impenetrable. That's... not good.
It still exists, but as I said it was never "finished". The Jaina Solo centric "Sword of the Jedi" trilogy was canceled just a couple months before release. Any unresolved plot lines are now abandoned. I would have been disappointed regardless, but I wouldn't feel the level of hostility towards"The Force Awakens" that I feel now if the old EU had been given a finale series that wrapped everything up.
Yup i agree
Oh this is gonna be good get your popcorn and marshmellows ready these flames gonna be intense
They might exist, but they have been effectively reduced to the status of fanfiction. I care about the injustice of people spending hard earned $$s on product, taking the time to read and absorb (which cannot be regained) only to be told "Doesn't matter, haha, you've spent years filling your head with now irrelevant garbage, but come watch the new film and see how things really happened..."
It's not that I 'care' on a personal level, but that I find the lack of respect and appreciation for someone else's work to be distasteful.
A different example of the same kind of dismissive attitude. I've heard that Cameron Diaz is very dismissive of fans, refuses to sign autographs, and she and Jason Segel basically refused to engage in promotional material for one of the films they were in, despite the fact that if it wasn't for the fans, no one would be watching the movies, and they's be out of a job. Compared to the behaviour of say, Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, who have held up premieres of their films specifically so they could spend time with their fans. It's about having respect, and not biting the hand that feeds it, and that's what the dumping of the EU feels like...
As above, I'm not personally invested in the EU. I could name a few of the characters, but I haven't read any of the books. But if I was, and I had, I don't think I'd be happy about it, so I can understwnd how fans might feel who had taken the time to buy the books etc...
OK, that is probably the most valid issue I have seen, and I won't argue with you there. As I said in another thread your enjoyment of a story should not depend on a label someone puts on it, but I definitely understand being upset that a story you enjoyed won't be finished. But then again, maybe it will one day, under the "Legends" imprint. If that happens, I just hope you will ignore the label and enjoy the story itself.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
The entire reason we read fiction is to be entertained, and nothing Disney says now changes the entertainment people got out of those stories when they read them, so no one lost any monetary value or even time. The most valid issue I have read anyone make is the previous post I replied to(above), but that is a completely different issue than you are talking about.
As far as your comment about "filling your head with irrelevant garbage", that has nothing to do with "canon", because I know plenty of people who would say that all of this fits that description whether it is "canon" or not =P
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
IMHO, it does diminish the work, because it makes it irrelevant, ergo, a person wasted time absorbing it. You're free to disagree with me, but you asked why I care, and that's why: I consider it an injustice and disrespectful to the fans without whom, there would be no ongoing franchise...
I can certainly appreciate the frustration of a story unfinished, but as above, as I said, it is the disrespect to fans emotional (and financial) investment which bugs me the most.
Irrelevant? We're talking about a fictional story read for entertainment. Were you entertained when you read it? If you were, then how does what Disney says years later change that? Why do you think an arbitrary label somehow makes a story less entertaining years after the fact? It's almost like you are letting Disney control your mind. You are letting them tell you how to feel about something.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Which the readership took to be part of an ongoing continuum of stories which they followed and invested in.
If you can't understand that, I can't explain it any more clearly, nor be any more clear about why I think it is disrespectful.
I agree with jonsills' post that it makes sense to ditch the EU rather than being forced to try and live up to expectations of it, but that i) does not change my opinion that I feel EU fans have been given the finger, and ii) raises the question of if no effort is being made to keep to a 20+ year continuity, why even bother making another film (other than the obvious reason of simply to get some $$s)
See my example of Cameron Diaz and Jason Segel and their dismissive attitudes towards the fans without whom, their only 'lines' would be "Do you want fries with that?" I wonder how they'll feel in 20-30 years time when they're having to trawl the convention circuit and hope people will want to pay $20 for a chat and an autograph... If their attitude toward fans doesn't improve, I can see them with a lot of time on their hands at their tables...
I completely understand people enjoying stories they read. What I don't understand is people letting Disney control their minds and tell them what to think or feel. If I enjoy a story, or series of stories, I don't care what someone else says about them or, or even about the person who wrote them. If you enjoy something, what Disney says later shouldn't brainwash you into changing your mind.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Then you don't understand it, and I can't explain it to you. Brainwashing doesn't even come into it, as that implies some kind of forced perspective of a false notion. Disney has scrubbed the EU, it's that simple, and as above, if you can't understand why that has pissed people off, I clearly can't explain it to you.
Nothing has been "scrubbed". Those books still exist. No one is burning them. You can still read them and enjoy them any time you want. That only changes if you let Disney tell you what to think.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
So, if I understand you right, what the issue is is that:
Lots of fans put money into buying the books and other EU stuff, and time into reading them.
Lots of authors put time and effort into writing said books and other stuff.
Disney declared all that irrelevant. That doesn't change the fact that any of those books which are good will still be good. But it is disrespectful towards the aforementioned fans and authors to arbitrarily tell them that all of the time and effort they put into the franchise is now meaningless.
Kind of a "Terribly sorry old chap, all that stuff you thought happened? It didn't. Those characters you may have gotten to love? They were (possibly) never even born. Look over here. This is our story! This is the only one that really matters!"
That said, given the size of the SW EU, I can still kind of understand why they made that choice, although I thought there were some gaps in the settings of the books and the like that would have been big enough to fit a film into.