Except, the Chronology is a canon reference. It was requested by Roddenberry, as a compilation of in-universe knowledge. It holds the same canon weight as a collection of Trek knowledge as the Encyclopedia. It was also written by people who helped produce the shows, and was accepted as official licensed content by Paramount.
That's not how it works, Star Trek canon is solely the TV series and the films, nothing else, licenced material, no matter how official, is not canon, even if it doesn't contradict the shows or films.
I think it's strange that the RSE - which had been around for centuries prior to the 2200s - would be so willing to adopt a Klingon ship design in their fleet, even with modifications or alterations. But, it happened. I have to accept that. And it clearly served a prominent role in the RSE fleet.
It played a minor role, it appeared in only a few episodes, there's nothing to suggest it was a mainstay of the Romulan fleet. I fully accept that they had D7's, what I don't accept is that they gave up the cloaking device for them, that would be the biggest tactical blunder in ST history.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
That's not how it works, Star Trek canon is solely the TV series and the films, nothing else, licenced material, no matter how official, is not canon, even if it doesn't contradict the shows or films.
...
No. There was one and it was ambiguous as to when the Alliance happened, as I've already pointed out, in context it makes more sense to refer to TUC.
If that is your opinion, so be it. I present fact, you present selectivity. I can't be any more clear than I have been.
Nice to see the Tal Diann still spouting their "superiority" complexes within the romulan game play forums.. make sense for a bunch of romulans who sold each other out.
Btw Tolmarius, next time don't be so obvious.
How so? They've been quoting canon as canon, and bringing in soft canon (clearly labeled as such) as support. What else do you base a debate on, without the available material?
I could see it, actually. By all accounts, the TOS bird-of-prey was an inferior ship, aside from its' cloak and plasma weapon. The D7 would give them a proper cruiser for a fleet that otherwise had glorified patrolboats as flagships. Fully operational, kitted cruisers aren't exactly cheap or quick to come by.
If that is your opinion, so be it. I present fact, you present selectivity. I can't be any more clear than I have been.
What are you on about? Canon exists for reasons such as this, it's not a matter of opinion, the canon is canon, you present non canon (but licenced) material as canon and as fact, I present nothing but conclusions drawn from canon presented as opinion.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The real reason Romulans used D7's was because the model for the Romulan Warbird turned up missing before the shoot for "The Enterprise Incident" (it was presumed stolen). Because of budgeting problems another one couldn't be built - so the studio just pressed the other 'bad guy' ship model - the D7 - into service for the shoot...using 'cheap' script dialog to cover the change.
Another studio 'gaff' lead to the cloaking device becoming standard equipment for nearly all Klingon ships many years later. The bird of prey introduced in "The search for Spock" (ST III) was supposed to be a stolen Romulan ship, however that tiny bit of qualifying dialog never made it into the movie...so everyone assumed it was a Klingon design - complete with cloaking device. And hence, the Romulans greatest technological secret suddenly became standard issue on most subsequent Klingon ships.
People have made up 'history' to explain these mistakes, the easiest being a 'trade' between the two Empires (ships for cloaking devices), but none of it is canon in anyway.
Odd. Memory Alpha cites the studio wanting to get their money's worth out of the D7. Not the T'Liss being stolen. Have also often heard a story about a studio fire wrecking numerous props, including the T'Liss. ::shrugs::
What are you on about? Canon exists for reasons such as this, it's not a matter of opinion, the canon is canon, you present non canon (but licenced) material as canon and as fact, I present nothing but conclusions drawn from canon presented as opinion.
You're selectively interpreting canon. I can't argue with that line of thought.
So I'll jump back into what's established in-game. STO is based on canon and soft canon, including its own in-house lore contributions. The D7 is just as Romulan as it is Klingon, within the definition of STO's universe. STO accepts soft canon that also holds the D7 as a Romulan ship acquired through alliance with the Klingons - specifically the Rihannsu series, from which much of the language, words, and lore used in-game originates.
The real reason Romulans used D7's was because the model for the Romulan Warbird turned up missing before the shoot for "The Enterprise Incident" (it was presumed stolen). Because of budgeting problems another one couldn't be built - so the studio just pressed the other 'bad guy' ship model - the D7 - into service for the shoot...using 'cheap' script dialog to cover the change.
I thought it was burnt in a warehouse fire? I might be wrong. But yeah, the D7 played substitute because the old BoP was gone.
You're selectively interpreting canon. I can't argue with that line of thought.
So I'll jump back into what's established in-game. STO is based on canon and soft canon, including its own in-house lore contributions. The D7 is just as Romulan as it is Klingon, within the definition of STO's universe. STO accepts soft canon that also holds the D7 as a Romulan ship acquired through alliance with the Klingons - specifically the Rihannsu series, from which much of the language, words, and lore used in-game originates.
No I'm not, it's not like the old Star Wars canon with different levels, star Trek canon has always been the TV shows and the Films.
And no, STO doesn't hold anything as canon unless it want's to, there is no automatic acceptance of anything in the EU at all, it picks and choses, it takes the Vesta from the novels but not the related Borg stuff, it takes some Romulan concepts from the novels, but not all of them, it's a pick and chose situation.
It's up to Cryptic how it want's to introduce a Romulan D7, if indeed it ever does, but they won't be forced to mention this imaginary Alliance just because they have used other concepts from the EU.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
No I'm not, it's not like the old Star Wars canon with different levels, star Trek canon has always been the TV shows and the Films.
And no, STO doesn't hold anything as canon unless it want's to, there is no automatic acceptance of anything in the EU at all, it picks and choses, it takes the Vesta from the novels but not the related Borg stuff, it takes some Romulan concepts from the novels, but not all of them, it's a pick and chose situation.
It's up to Cryptic how it want's to introduce a Romulan D7, if indeed it ever does, but they won't be forced to mention this imaginary Alliance just because they have used other concepts from the EU.
Isn't the Alliance mentioned by the NPCs in both the KDF and RR intro arcs?
Isn't the Alliance mentioned by the NPCs in both the KDF and RR intro arcs?
I've never come across it to be honest.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I know on the RR side of things, NPCs at Khitomer mention the previous Alliance against the Federation as a reason to accept the Republic as an ally. That implies to me, at least as far as STO's concerned, that the Alliance was not referring to TUC's three-way truce.
I dub artan42 the biggest troll on this subforum! congrats the competition was stiff but you managed it. Now... why the hell you fools feeding the troll a frikkin all-you-can-eat buffet?
I dub artan42 the biggest troll on this subforum! congrats the competition was stiff but you managed it. Now... why the hell you fools feeding the troll a frikkin all-you-can-eat buffet?
Also, because the Romulan forums are one of (if not the sole remaining) the only places were actual RP or debate occurs. Kinda hard to walk away from that.
I dub artan42 the biggest troll on this subforum! congrats the competition was stiff but you managed it. Now... why the hell you fools feeding the troll a frikkin all-you-can-eat buffet?
Because he isn't a troll. As much as some of us disagree with him on various matters he's an honest fellow.
On topic:
There are various things that speak against the "captured ships" theory.
Foremost that, just like the Romulans, the Klingons rather die than let themselves get captured. So they'd blow up their ship first.
Also, the Romulans in "The Enterprise Incident" used Klingon disruptors. That doesn't make much sense logistically because they'd be restricted to what they found on the ships. It only makes sense if they have the capacity to maintain them on a larger scale beyond the stockpiles their ships may offer. So they most likely bought the weapons technology along with the ships from the Klingons.
As for discarded/abandoned ships: it's questionable the Klingons would abandon their ships in a state where they might be repaired. (And then they'd probably destroy them so they don't fall into someone else's hands.) Even if we assume the Klingons didn't blow up their derelict ships, how many wrecks does it take to combine their working parts into a single ship that once again flies? So how many "discarded" ships must the Romulans have found so they could rebuild several working models from their remains? Probably dozens. Sorry but it doesn't add up.
I know on the RR side of things, NPCs at Khitomer mention the previous Alliance against the Federation as a reason to accept the Republic as an ally. That implies to me, at least as far as STO's concerned, that the Alliance was not referring to TUC's three-way truce.
Interesting, if it part of the STO Romulan history, it's not much of a problem, the Romulans in STO can be very OOC and being stupid enough to give away their sole advantage over the Klingons would still work in the context of STO.
On topic:
There are various things that speak against the "captured ships" theory.
Foremost that, just like the Romulans, the Klingons rather die than let themselves get captured. So they'd blow up their ship first.
Also, the Romulans in "The Enterprise Incident" used Klingon disruptors. That doesn't make much sense logistically because they'd be restricted to what they found on the ships. It only makes sense if they have the capacity to maintain them on a larger scale beyond the stockpiles their ships may offer. So they most likely bought the weapons technology along with the ships from the Klingons.
There is evidence against my theory, I just think it's more likely than the Alliance theory. Besides there are other ways to get the ships:
Stealing them from a shipyard with the Romulans USB cloaking devices (that are apparently compatible with Fed ships as well).
Damaged ships with no shields and the crew were beamed out into space.
I don't think we know how weapons are made in ST, it may be they just replicated the disruptors as it was the only pattern on the ships.
Buying things from the Klingons makes even less sense than an trade alliance from a Romulan point of view, how much pride would they have to swallow to buy hand guns from Klingons?
As for discarded/abandoned ships: it's questionable the Klingons would abandon their ships in a state where they might be repaired. (And then they'd probably destroy them so they don't fall into someone else's hands.) Even if we assume the Klingons didn't blow up their derelict ships, how many wrecks does it take to combine their working parts into a single ship that once again flies? So how many "discarded" ships must the Romulans have found so they could rebuild several working models from their remains? Probably dozens. Sorry but it doesn't add up.
Well the D7s are very easy to maintain, the one in VOY was kept running for about a century, the D7 refits were still used in the Dominion War. As for why the Romulans would bother, I would say it was psychological, the D7 was THE Klingon ship the fleet battleship, the counterpart to the Constitution, to see the pride of the KDF with a Romulan bird on the hull would be an effective weapon in a fight with the Klingons.
I'm not trying to troll anyone, I just can't see the logic of this supposed Alliance where the Romulans give up the single biggest piece of military technology in the quadrant in return for a few essentially nothing.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Interesting, if it part of the STO Romulan history, it's not much of a problem, the Romulans in STO can be very OOC and being stupid enough to give away their sole advantage over the Klingons would still work in the context of STO.
There is evidence against my theory, I just think it's more likely than the Alliance theory. Besides there are other ways to get the ships:
Stealing them from a shipyard with the Romulans USB cloaking devices (that are apparently compatible with Fed ships as well).
Damaged ships with no shields and the crew were beamed out into space.
I don't think we know how weapons are made in ST, it may be they just replicated the disruptors as it was the only pattern on the ships.
Buying things from the Klingons makes even less sense than an trade alliance from a Romulan point of view, how much pride would they have to swallow to buy hand guns from Klingons?
Well the D7s are very easy to maintain, the one in VOY was kept running for about a century, the D7 refits were still used in the Dominion War. As for why the Romulans would bother, I would say it was psychological, the D7 was THE Klingon ship the fleet battleship, the counterpart to the Constitution, to see the pride of the KDF with a Romulan bird on the hull would be an effective weapon in a fight with the Klingons.
I'm not trying to troll anyone, I just can't see the logic of this supposed Alliance where the Romulans give up the single biggest piece of military technology in the quadrant in return for a few essentially nothing.
Real world militaries and governments exchange tech and resources all the time. I again stress my previous mention of the Romulans apparently lacking any heavier vessels at the time. Exchanging the tech behind the T'Liss' cloak for ready-to-field battle cruisers would be a boon for the RSE. Especially since, according to the script, the cloak on the D7s was more advanced than "Balance of Terror"s. It would make sense for them to trade old tech to a non-enemy for something they drastically lack.
Real world militaries and governments exchange tech and resources all the time. I again stress my previous mention of the Romulans apparently lacking any heavier vessels at the time. Exchanging the tech behind the T'Liss' cloak for ready-to-field battle cruisers would be a boon for the RSE. Especially since, according to the script, the cloak on the D7s was more advanced than "Balance of Terror"s. It would make sense for them to trade old tech to a non-enemy for something they drastically lack.
They might, but not when they are at war or in a state of cold war. The Romulans may not have had larger ships (an idea I think is silly as they are quit clearly capable of building larger ships than the KDF or SF) but they didn't need them, their ships were almost undetectable under cloak, old and outdated or not nothing is more tide turning in ST than cloaking.
All sides have roughly comparable shields, weapons, transporters, science, defences, warp speeds, ship ranges, etc. The Romulans had one advantage, the cloak, I just cant see them ever giving that up for anything, especially not to the third superpower in the quadrant.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
All sides have roughly comparable shields, weapons, transporters, science, defences, warp speeds, ship ranges, etc. The Romulans had one advantage, the cloak, I just cant see them ever giving that up for anything, especially not to the third superpower in the quadrant.
That's true as of TNG/DS9. That's not true in TOS. The D7 and Connie were on equal footing. The T'Liss was not, per Scottie and the Romulan Crewmen in "Balance of Terror".
As well, the "better" cloak the Romulans installed on their D7s is a much bigger advantage because of it. Instead of the first gen cloak on an inferior ship, they now have second gen cloaks on the pride of the IKF. A fair trade, if you don't take into account 24th century politics and strategic situation.
That's true as of TNG/DS9. That's not true in TOS. The D7 and Connie were on equal footing. The T'Liss was not, per Scottie and the Romulan Crewmen in "Balance of Terror".
That makes an Alliance make even less sense as the cloak is their only advantage, I also can't believe the Romulans would be unable to build a competitor to the Constitution or D7 if they needed to, whether we saw it onscreen or not.
As well, the "better" cloak the Romulans installed on their D7s is a much bigger advantage because of it. Instead of the first gen cloak on an inferior ship, they now have second gen cloaks on the pride of the IKF. A fair trade, if you don't take into account 24th century politics and strategic situation.
Whether their new cloaks are better on not is immaterial now, the Klingons now have working (if inferior) cloaks and the abilities to work out how to detect them, tachyon grids and whatnot. They can now properly train to fight against them and develop their BOPs into the hit and run style ships from TNG as opposed to the light cruisers of ENT.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
That makes an Alliance make even less sense as the cloak is their only advantage, I also can't believe the Romulans would be unable to build a competitor to the Constitution or D7 if they needed to, whether we saw it onscreen or not.
Whether their new cloaks are better on not is immaterial now, the Klingons now have working (if inferior) cloaks and the abilities to work out how to detect them, tachyon grids and whatnot. They can now properly train to fight against them and develop their BOPs into the hit and run style ships from TNG as opposed to the light cruisers of ENT.
Your arguments have all been from a "canon" standpoint. Why would they put the cloak, admittedly an advanced and effective advantage, in an outdated ship, if they had a superior ship to mount it in? Further, why use D7s at all, if they were able to field an in-house equivalent?
Utilizing D7s over native technology means requiring seperate systems for maintenance and rearming. A Romulan cruiser would require much less specialized infrastructure.
Your arguments have all been from a "canon" standpoint. Why would they put the cloak, admittedly an advanced and effective advantage, in an outdated ship, if they had a superior ship to mount it in? Further, why use D7s at all, if they were able to field an in-house equivalent?
Utilizing D7s over native technology means requiring seperate systems for maintenance and rearming. A Romulan cruiser would require much less specialized infrastructure.
I gave a reason earlier, the psychological factor of waving the Klingons favourite ships back at them.
As the line about the 'new improved cloaks' isn't in the final episode (AFAIK) it still remains it could have been the same cloak, on that we've already seen can be fitted into a Federation ship with minimal difficulty.
AS for why we don't see more Romulan ships in TOS, well we only see two groups, one of which was on a mission that specifically called for a BoP, and a small flotilla, which I think was near Klingon space, hence the use of D7s.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I gave a reason earlier, the psychological factor of waving the Klingons favourite ships back at them.
As the line about the 'new improved cloaks' isn't in the final episode (AFAIK) it still remains it could have been the same cloak, on that we've already seen can be fitted into a Federation ship with minimal difficulty.
AS for why we don't see more Romulan ships in TOS, well we only see two groups, one of which was on a mission that specifically called for a BoP, and a small flotilla, which I think was near Klingon space, hence the use of D7s.
If they're waving D7s in the Klingons' face, why were they part of a home defense fleet on the Federation Neutral Zone?
If they're waving D7s in the Klingons' face, why were they part of a home defense fleet on the Federation Neutral Zone?
I forgot what neutral zone they were in. I'm not sure, I might rewatch the episode tomorrow, I still think the whole argument hinges on whether the Romulans would trade the cloaking device for anything and I still can't see a reason they would give it up at all.
Beyond that, I try not to rationalise anything from TOS too hard due to the rules not been laid out for anything, but the problems come when EU writers tried and we get situations like this.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Oh! Purely because "Neutral Zone" is on TV right now. Worf "Captain! They are Romulans. They are without honor. They killed my parents in a cowardly attack on Kitomer, when we were supposed to be allies."
Oh! Purely because "Neutral Zone" is on TV right now. Worf "Captain! They are Romulans. They are without honor. They killed my parents in a cowardly attack on Kitomer, when we were supposed to be allies."
That was after TUC and the Federation Klingon peace treaty, I assumed the Romulans signed up to it as well.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
That was after TUC and the Federation Klingon peace treaty, I assumed the Romulans signed up to it as well.
Doubtful. The Federation/Klingon Peace Treaty came about from the Kitomer Accords, which happened after the Tomed Incident leading to the Treaty of Algeron. Prior to Kitomer and Narendra III, the Federation and Klingons were at war again, and by that note, the Federation and RSE were at war prior to the Tomed Incident, which was after TUC.
Interesting, if it part of the STO Romulan history, it's not much of a problem, the Romulans in STO can be very OOC and being stupid enough to give away their sole advantage over the Klingons would still work in the context of STO.
There is evidence against my theory, I just think it's more likely than the Alliance theory. Besides there are other ways to get the ships:
Stealing them from a shipyard with the Romulans USB cloaking devices (that are apparently compatible with Fed ships as well).
Damaged ships with no shields and the crew were beamed out into space.
I don't think we know how weapons are made in ST, it may be they just replicated the disruptors as it was the only pattern on the ships.
Buying things from the Klingons makes even less sense than an trade alliance from a Romulan point of view, how much pride would they have to swallow to buy hand guns from Klingons?
Well the D7s are very easy to maintain, the one in VOY was kept running for about a century, the D7 refits were still used in the Dominion War. As for why the Romulans would bother, I would say it was psychological, the D7 was THE Klingon ship the fleet battleship, the counterpart to the Constitution, to see the pride of the KDF with a Romulan bird on the hull would be an effective weapon in a fight with the Klingons.
I'm not trying to troll anyone, I just can't see the logic of this supposed Alliance where the Romulans give up the single biggest piece of military technology in the quadrant in return for a few essentially nothing.
YO, what replicators? You're forgetting replicators were still decades away back then.:D
Also, look what the Romulans gained:
Appearently they didn't have matter-antimatter tech(this is even consistent with Enterprise where the drone ship was powered by "batteries")
this leads to: Operational Speed
Given the information available in "Balance of Terror" I estimate the speed of the Romulan ship in that episode was Warp 3, I'll see if I can find the post with my data if you'd like.
The D7 in "The Enterprise Incident" was gaining on the Enterprise even though the latter was holding Warp 9 which would mean the Romulans gained ships that were 27 times as fast as their existing models.
Operational Range
We know the D7 can stay operational for...months or years depending on the script.
The Romulan ship in "Balance of Terror" had barely enough fuel to get to its target and then home (they kept whining that the cloak and their plasma weapon was using the same fuel as the engines).
Assuming I'm right they probably got disruptor tech, maybe shields and solid-case torpedoes that don't eat up their eingines' fuel.;)
I'd say that's a lot even if we ignore the assumed parts.:)
Also while the D7 may be easy to maintain. Repairing a crippled one, especially without prior knowledge of its workings is probably another story.
As for stealing them: ships in yards are appearently locked in place. So they wouldn't be that easy to steal without someone on the yard and/or starbase they're docked at.
And then you'd need the ability to start the ships even though they're offline and possibly locked against theft. Even in my garage I don't leave the keys in my car.;)
And even if we assume the Romulans somehow managed to steal a Klingon ship from their yards or outpost, how often can they pull this off before the Klingons do everything they can to prevent such a dishonor? Probably only once.
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That's not how it works, Star Trek canon is solely the TV series and the films, nothing else, licenced material, no matter how official, is not canon, even if it doesn't contradict the shows or films.
No. There was one and it was ambiguous as to when the Alliance happened, as I've already pointed out, in context it makes more sense to refer to TUC.
I'm not, I'm ignoring non canon material and making extrapolations based on actual canon i.e. the films and TV series.
It played a minor role, it appeared in only a few episodes, there's nothing to suggest it was a mainstay of the Romulan fleet. I fully accept that they had D7's, what I don't accept is that they gave up the cloaking device for them, that would be the biggest tactical blunder in ST history.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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If that is your opinion, so be it. I present fact, you present selectivity. I can't be any more clear than I have been.
How so? They've been quoting canon as canon, and bringing in soft canon (clearly labeled as such) as support. What else do you base a debate on, without the available material?
What are you on about? Canon exists for reasons such as this, it's not a matter of opinion, the canon is canon, you present non canon (but licenced) material as canon and as fact, I present nothing but conclusions drawn from canon presented as opinion.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Odd. Memory Alpha cites the studio wanting to get their money's worth out of the D7. Not the T'Liss being stolen. Have also often heard a story about a studio fire wrecking numerous props, including the T'Liss. ::shrugs::
You're selectively interpreting canon. I can't argue with that line of thought.
So I'll jump back into what's established in-game. STO is based on canon and soft canon, including its own in-house lore contributions. The D7 is just as Romulan as it is Klingon, within the definition of STO's universe. STO accepts soft canon that also holds the D7 as a Romulan ship acquired through alliance with the Klingons - specifically the Rihannsu series, from which much of the language, words, and lore used in-game originates.
I thought it was burnt in a warehouse fire? I might be wrong. But yeah, the D7 played substitute because the old BoP was gone.
No I'm not, it's not like the old Star Wars canon with different levels, star Trek canon has always been the TV shows and the Films.
And no, STO doesn't hold anything as canon unless it want's to, there is no automatic acceptance of anything in the EU at all, it picks and choses, it takes the Vesta from the novels but not the related Borg stuff, it takes some Romulan concepts from the novels, but not all of them, it's a pick and chose situation.
It's up to Cryptic how it want's to introduce a Romulan D7, if indeed it ever does, but they won't be forced to mention this imaginary Alliance just because they have used other concepts from the EU.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Isn't the Alliance mentioned by the NPCs in both the KDF and RR intro arcs?
I've never come across it to be honest.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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I know on the RR side of things, NPCs at Khitomer mention the previous Alliance against the Federation as a reason to accept the Republic as an ally. That implies to me, at least as far as STO's concerned, that the Alliance was not referring to TUC's three-way truce.
Because reasons... https://xkcd.com/386/ :P
Also, because the Romulan forums are one of (if not the sole remaining) the only places were actual RP or debate occurs. Kinda hard to walk away from that.
Because he isn't a troll. As much as some of us disagree with him on various matters he's an honest fellow.
Agreed. Despite how spirited some of this has gotten, this has been an entirely civil exchanging of opinion.
There are various things that speak against the "captured ships" theory.
Foremost that, just like the Romulans, the Klingons rather die than let themselves get captured. So they'd blow up their ship first.
Also, the Romulans in "The Enterprise Incident" used Klingon disruptors. That doesn't make much sense logistically because they'd be restricted to what they found on the ships. It only makes sense if they have the capacity to maintain them on a larger scale beyond the stockpiles their ships may offer. So they most likely bought the weapons technology along with the ships from the Klingons.
As for discarded/abandoned ships: it's questionable the Klingons would abandon their ships in a state where they might be repaired. (And then they'd probably destroy them so they don't fall into someone else's hands.) Even if we assume the Klingons didn't blow up their derelict ships, how many wrecks does it take to combine their working parts into a single ship that once again flies? So how many "discarded" ships must the Romulans have found so they could rebuild several working models from their remains? Probably dozens. Sorry but it doesn't add up.
Interesting, if it part of the STO Romulan history, it's not much of a problem, the Romulans in STO can be very OOC and being stupid enough to give away their sole advantage over the Klingons would still work in the context of STO.
There is evidence against my theory, I just think it's more likely than the Alliance theory. Besides there are other ways to get the ships:
I don't think we know how weapons are made in ST, it may be they just replicated the disruptors as it was the only pattern on the ships.
Buying things from the Klingons makes even less sense than an trade alliance from a Romulan point of view, how much pride would they have to swallow to buy hand guns from Klingons?
Well the D7s are very easy to maintain, the one in VOY was kept running for about a century, the D7 refits were still used in the Dominion War. As for why the Romulans would bother, I would say it was psychological, the D7 was THE Klingon ship the fleet battleship, the counterpart to the Constitution, to see the pride of the KDF with a Romulan bird on the hull would be an effective weapon in a fight with the Klingons.
I'm not trying to troll anyone, I just can't see the logic of this supposed Alliance where the Romulans give up the single biggest piece of military technology in the quadrant in return for a few essentially nothing.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Real world militaries and governments exchange tech and resources all the time. I again stress my previous mention of the Romulans apparently lacking any heavier vessels at the time. Exchanging the tech behind the T'Liss' cloak for ready-to-field battle cruisers would be a boon for the RSE. Especially since, according to the script, the cloak on the D7s was more advanced than "Balance of Terror"s. It would make sense for them to trade old tech to a non-enemy for something they drastically lack.
They might, but not when they are at war or in a state of cold war. The Romulans may not have had larger ships (an idea I think is silly as they are quit clearly capable of building larger ships than the KDF or SF) but they didn't need them, their ships were almost undetectable under cloak, old and outdated or not nothing is more tide turning in ST than cloaking.
All sides have roughly comparable shields, weapons, transporters, science, defences, warp speeds, ship ranges, etc. The Romulans had one advantage, the cloak, I just cant see them ever giving that up for anything, especially not to the third superpower in the quadrant.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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That's true as of TNG/DS9. That's not true in TOS. The D7 and Connie were on equal footing. The T'Liss was not, per Scottie and the Romulan Crewmen in "Balance of Terror".
As well, the "better" cloak the Romulans installed on their D7s is a much bigger advantage because of it. Instead of the first gen cloak on an inferior ship, they now have second gen cloaks on the pride of the IKF. A fair trade, if you don't take into account 24th century politics and strategic situation.
That makes an Alliance make even less sense as the cloak is their only advantage, I also can't believe the Romulans would be unable to build a competitor to the Constitution or D7 if they needed to, whether we saw it onscreen or not.
Whether their new cloaks are better on not is immaterial now, the Klingons now have working (if inferior) cloaks and the abilities to work out how to detect them, tachyon grids and whatnot. They can now properly train to fight against them and develop their BOPs into the hit and run style ships from TNG as opposed to the light cruisers of ENT.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Your arguments have all been from a "canon" standpoint. Why would they put the cloak, admittedly an advanced and effective advantage, in an outdated ship, if they had a superior ship to mount it in? Further, why use D7s at all, if they were able to field an in-house equivalent?
Utilizing D7s over native technology means requiring seperate systems for maintenance and rearming. A Romulan cruiser would require much less specialized infrastructure.
I gave a reason earlier, the psychological factor of waving the Klingons favourite ships back at them.
As the line about the 'new improved cloaks' isn't in the final episode (AFAIK) it still remains it could have been the same cloak, on that we've already seen can be fitted into a Federation ship with minimal difficulty.
AS for why we don't see more Romulan ships in TOS, well we only see two groups, one of which was on a mission that specifically called for a BoP, and a small flotilla, which I think was near Klingon space, hence the use of D7s.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
If they're waving D7s in the Klingons' face, why were they part of a home defense fleet on the Federation Neutral Zone?
I forgot what neutral zone they were in. I'm not sure, I might rewatch the episode tomorrow, I still think the whole argument hinges on whether the Romulans would trade the cloaking device for anything and I still can't see a reason they would give it up at all.
Beyond that, I try not to rationalise anything from TOS too hard due to the rules not been laid out for anything, but the problems come when EU writers tried and we get situations like this.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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That was after TUC and the Federation Klingon peace treaty, I assumed the Romulans signed up to it as well.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Doubtful. The Federation/Klingon Peace Treaty came about from the Kitomer Accords, which happened after the Tomed Incident leading to the Treaty of Algeron. Prior to Kitomer and Narendra III, the Federation and Klingons were at war again, and by that note, the Federation and RSE were at war prior to the Tomed Incident, which was after TUC.
YO, what replicators? You're forgetting replicators were still decades away back then.:D
Also, look what the Romulans gained:
Appearently they didn't have matter-antimatter tech(this is even consistent with Enterprise where the drone ship was powered by "batteries")
this leads to:
Operational Speed
Given the information available in "Balance of Terror" I estimate the speed of the Romulan ship in that episode was Warp 3, I'll see if I can find the post with my data if you'd like.
The D7 in "The Enterprise Incident" was gaining on the Enterprise even though the latter was holding Warp 9 which would mean the Romulans gained ships that were 27 times as fast as their existing models.
Operational Range
We know the D7 can stay operational for...months or years depending on the script.
The Romulan ship in "Balance of Terror" had barely enough fuel to get to its target and then home (they kept whining that the cloak and their plasma weapon was using the same fuel as the engines).
Assuming I'm right they probably got disruptor tech, maybe shields and solid-case torpedoes that don't eat up their eingines' fuel.;)
I'd say that's a lot even if we ignore the assumed parts.:)
Also while the D7 may be easy to maintain. Repairing a crippled one, especially without prior knowledge of its workings is probably another story.
As for stealing them: ships in yards are appearently locked in place. So they wouldn't be that easy to steal without someone on the yard and/or starbase they're docked at.
And then you'd need the ability to start the ships even though they're offline and possibly locked against theft. Even in my garage I don't leave the keys in my car.;)
And even if we assume the Romulans somehow managed to steal a Klingon ship from their yards or outpost, how often can they pull this off before the Klingons do everything they can to prevent such a dishonor? Probably only once.