Exactly! The Defiant was an escort warship. It was more powerful than a Galor class warship though. It could go toe to toe with an Excel, the mainstay battleship of the Federation... which is only outstrengthed by galaxies, sovereigns and ambassadors.
and yeah... I'd had done way more upgrades to Deep Space Nine... more...
sure, the ability to lock 500 torpedoes on a single target is nice. But more shields, more troops (even if they were under Bajoran command), and fighters... not runabouts, but fighters. I'd had added a bay, a pod to the station for the fighters and Defiant to be docked there. You know? pods at the three pylons... with extended docking capabilities for warships and fighters, defensive units to be stationed.
you would have more or less transformed it into a federation military base then. such things cannot happen without repercussions.
you would have more or less transformed it into a federation military base then. such things cannot happen without repercussions.
Not if it's a joint Federation/Bajoran run military base, the Bajorans can trust the Federation because the Federation helped rebuild Bajor's infrastructure and can be a neutral party in any political dispute not to mention the fact the Federation has the resources to protect the Bajor sector, it's in both party's interests that DS9 has the military back up as well as it's defences to help protect the wormhole entrance in the Alpha Quadrant.
Bajor is important in the event of an attack as a civilian evac centre, time permitting.
The Federation need Bajoran co-operation and the Bajorans need a ally who will stand by them in a crisis and the Federation has done that more than once, Sisko even recommended Bajor sign a non-aggression pact with the dominion to keep them out of the fighting as the Bajorans were in no fit state to resist a dominion assault.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Not if it's a joint Federation/Bajoran run military base, the Bajorans can trust the Federation because the Federation helped rebuild Bajor's infrastructure and can be a neutral party in any political dispute not to mention the fact the Federation has the resources to protect the Bajor sector, it's in both party's interests that DS9 has the military back up as well as it's defences to help protect the wormhole entrance in the Alpha Quadrant.
Bajor is important in the event of an attack as a civilian evac centre, time permitting.
The Federation need Bajoran co-operation and the Bajorans need a ally who will stand by them in a crisis and the Federation has done that more than once, Sisko even recommended Bajor sign a non-aggression pact with the dominion to keep them out of the fighting as the Bajorans were in no fit state to resist a dominion assault.
This... the second in command is a Bajoran and the commander is an emissary of the Prophets. The Bajorans aren't going to object
The simple answer is the Bajorans didn't want it. DS9 and the wormhole were in Bajoran space. The decision to bring the Federation in to help run the station was controversial enough, I'm sure it didn't include permission to station a fleet outside Federation borders. There WAS a fleet along the Cardassian/Federation border and the Federation flagship even spent a fair amount of time in the immediate area. Later there were advantages to Bajor to be able and claim neutral status, as Sisko himself advised.
You really think that just because some Feddie collaborator - pardon me, official Bajoran liason, is second-in-command of the station, that the Bajorans aren't going to be concerned about the heavily-armed station owned by a foreign power, the one that was most recently used to enslave their entire planet, flying off toward the Celestial Temple?
Look, you may trust in the good intentions of the Federation, and of Starfleet. I may trust in those good intentions. But what reason did the Bajorans have to trust in those good intentions? Because the station commander is their Emissary? You might recall that it took a while before that was generally accepted on Bajor, even without turning the station into a Starfleet military encampment.
And that's not even getting into the likely response of the Cardassians...
You really think that just because some Feddie collaborator - pardon me, official Bajoran liason, is second-in-command of the station, that the Bajorans aren't going to be concerned about the heavily-armed station owned by a foreign power, the one that was most recently used to enslave their entire planet, flying off toward the Celestial Temple?
Look, you may trust in the good intentions of the Federation, and of Starfleet. I may trust in those good intentions. But what reason did the Bajorans have to trust in those good intentions? Because the station commander is their Emissary? You might recall that it took a while before that was generally accepted on Bajor, even without turning the station into a Starfleet military encampment.
And that's not even getting into the likely response of the Cardassians...
that liaison was a pain in the TRIBBLE for the Federation. She stood up for Bajoran interests and proved it over and over. Even with a field promotion to Commander and a commission in Starfleet, she wore a Bajoran uniform whenever she could.
The cardassians are just bullies without much of a punch
That liaison was a pain in the TRIBBLE for the Federation. She stood up for Bajoran interests and proved it over and over.
Yes, and she was supposed to. That's what a liason does.
The cardassians are just bullies without much of a punch
How long did the war between the Federation and the Cardassian Union last again? Gul Dukat's various harassments weren't terribly forceful because he didn't have the official backing of his government. Place a heavily-armed Starfleet presence right by the border, though, and that might change.
Yes, and she was supposed to. That's what a liason does.
How long did the war between the Federation and the Cardassian Union last again? Gul Dukat's various harassments weren't terribly forceful because he didn't have the official backing of his government. Place a heavily-armed Starfleet presence right by the border, though, and that might change.
Yes, so she represented Bajor's interests pretty well.
And the wars were short, border wars that the Federation didn't put much effort into ending. I dunno how much stronger Galaxies are to Ambassadors, but I'm sure Ambassadors could had taken on at least 2 Galors... the Federation had the ability to put down the border wars as hard as they wanted to without really... putting themselves on a war footing.
That's not what Trek canon tells us about the war, Travis.
Of course the Defiant could do serious damage to a Galor - the Defiant, as you might recall, was designed to fight the freaking Borg. But the only place an Ambassador can take on multiple Galors is in STO, where you have special Player Character Powers.
The Defiant was also a serious threat to Jem'Hadar ships - which destroyed the Galaxy-class USS Odyssey.
DS9 is only 1.5 kilometers across according to official schematics, and the outermost sections aren't playable in-game. The DS9 map in-game is just the Promenade and Ops, which are in the central hub.
Wow, I didn't know that. I was off by a little bit; 1.5km across gives a ring circumference of 4.712km, 2.928 miles. Just call it 3mi. I guess at a mild jog...1 hour.
Seems bigger, you know? Comparing the ships with 3000+ crew right next to it...must be cramped in the ships.
those are iffy statments to make.
sure, the defiant could do a lot of damage to those ships, but the show never militarily explains the defiants role in fleet actions like it would be in against the borg.
but the thing is, its ww2 counterpart, the motor torpedo boat, was also quite capable of inflicting serious damage on much bigger ships.
thing is, nobody tries to tries to claim torpedo boats are actually as powerful as full battleships, like people do when the fedbop is mentioned.
The term you're trying to look for is "glass cannon."
those are iffy statments to make.
sure, the defiant could do a lot of damage to those ships, but the show never militarily explains the defiants role in fleet actions like it would be in against the borg.
but the thing is, its ww2 counterpart, the motor torpedo boat, was also quite capable of inflicting serious damage on much bigger ships.
thing is, nobody tries to tries to claim torpedo boats are actually as powerful as full battleships, like people do when the fedbop is mentioned.
The Defiant is not an MTB, it's a destroyer. Smaller, fast as hell, and can fire a lot of devastating weapons, but it's not supposed to stick around and slug it out with heavy ships (cruisers and battleships).
A runabout is more like an MTB. A small raider that might get lucky once in a while, but is mostly a sitting duck in a ship versus ship engagement.
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Wow, I didn't know that. I was off by a little bit; 1.5km across gives a ring circumference of 4.712km, 2.928 miles. Just call it 3mi. I guess at a mild jog...1 hour.
Seems bigger, you know? Comparing the ships with 3000+ crew right next to it...must be cramped in the ships.
Cryptic scaled up the exterior to 5 km-ish because otherwise they thought it looked like a toy next to the usual crowds of player ships. The interior's also bigger than it is in the show (which I think was to deal with camera issues early on).
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
that was one odd episode. They were making a point, but I'm not sure it really got across.
The only point by the time "Profit and Lace" aired was to draw a paycheck. Alexander Siddig, who directed, thought he was making a satire (of what, I have no idea), the original scriptwriter had it planned as a comedy, and the actors actually refused to film several scenes because they had managed to be offensive to women, LGBTs, cross-dressers, the viewers' intelligence, and Quark (starting with trying to undo most of his character development across the last six years and ignoring that Sisko had personally banned him from extorting sex from his employees way back in season 1).
End result, a complete clusterf*ck that borders on "Code of Honor" in terms of being stupidly offensive in general.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The United Federation of Planets is by far the largest unified political and military entity of the major powers of Star Trek in the traditional locales. That said, Starfleet has lots of areas to worry about, lots of fronts, lots of borders to patrol and protect, lots of space to patrol internally, lots of member worlds to defend, on top of the famed exploration missions. They had to keep watch on their rivals as well as previous peoples they've had actual wars with, i.e. the Sheliak. Picard may have talked up the peaceful aspect of Starfleet and the Federation, but the Federation's history is full of wars and Starfleet was at the forefront in fighting them.
Considering all the space the UFP has and their history with their neighbors, even the massive Starfleet would be hard pressed to watch over all that. You could say as an Armchair Admiral / "Monday Morning Quarterback" that Starfleet should have posted stronger military forces at DS9. Starfleet is only so big, not to mention the ships would have to come from somewhere else. One simply does not stamp their feet and fleets will magically come out of nowhere.
That's not what Trek canon tells us about the war, Travis.
Of course the Defiant could do serious damage to a Galor - the Defiant, as you might recall, was designed to fight the freaking Borg. But the only place an Ambassador can take on multiple Galors is in STO, where you have special Player Character Powers.
The Defiant was also a serious threat to Jem'Hadar ships - which destroyed the Galaxy-class USS Odyssey.
1on1 the defiant would get owned by a Galor
A Ambassador would probably be a even match
And a Galaxy would own the Galor
According to the Tech manuals and board games
STO is as far from Canon as you can get
I mean seriously
the Jem hardar destroyers beat on the oddessy for almost 10 minutes and couldn't take it down despite having tricks that made the Odyssey's shields useless from there first shot,,,, And there firepower was still so weak they had to RAM the odyssey to take her down
Later we see the defiant with no shields take a full volley from a jhas and take it then destroy the jhas with one volley with the jem hadars shields up and see a Klingon BOP do the same thing to another JHAS
pretty poor writing isn't it
the odyssey has 4x the firepower of the defiant yet cant take out a single JHAS with all power to weapons
Really poor writing lol
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Way of the Warrior: didnt engage the Vorcha chasing it; had to use tractor-beam trick to deflect the VorChas weaponsfire to escape from it in the first place. Surely, if the Defiant was THAT awesomesauce it could have taken out the VorCha and the two BOPs accompanying it?
Destroying one to three Klingon vessels for the sake of saving a Cardassian would have been a pretty bad move, politically speaking. I never go the impresssion they couldn't defeat the Vor'Cha - they just didn't want to risk destroying it. Similar to the Lakota incident.
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Remember when the Defiant took on the Negh'Var? Granted it was mirror universe, but still built the same. It did strafing runs, it caused damage, but ultimately, it didn't take it out. Where did this idea that the Defiant was a god ship come from? It never outright destroys cruisers or larger targets by it's own firepower.
Odyssey couldn't take down the shields of the Jem'Hadar but the Defiant could isn't bad writing. It's the Defiant having an overcorked engine that supercharges the weapons to a point they provide more burst damage than a Galaxy class would, as well as punting out alot more rapid shots than a standard beam. As stated in the Defiant's first appearance. However, the Galaxy can take a much harsher beating.
*******************************************
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mary sue levels of plot armour to keep it alive as it fired plot torpedo at everything.
Technically that could be every main ship on every series.
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Technically that could be every main ship on every series.
Voyager takes it to a whole new level obviously. In fact, i think Voyager wins out over the Defiant since the Defiant actually runs out of plot armor at one point and gets irreversibly destroyed. That only happens to Voyager when a reset button is present XD.
I tend to see the Defiant as a shock weapon designed to punch through a enemy line and just keep on going with a heavy amount of fire power but with the handling of a fighter and her speed as a form of protection combined with the ablative armour.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
mary sue levels of plot armour to keep it alive as it fired plot torpedo at everything.
You mean analysing post battle reports and upgrading their ship to better defend against these things? remember in the earliest eps, even the Jem'Hadar fighters were able to board the ship. To assume they wouldn't analyse and enhance the ship following battles is just daft.
Ok, why didn't the Dominion do likewise? Because plot. I'll say this for DS9, in the big ship battles, it did seem like the combatants forgot to raise any shields. At all.
*******************************************
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Not if it's a joint Federation/Bajoran run military base, the Bajorans can trust the Federation because the Federation helped rebuild Bajor's infrastructure and can be a neutral party in any political dispute not to mention the fact the Federation has the resources to protect the Bajor sector, it's in both party's interests that DS9 has the military back up as well as it's defences to help protect the wormhole entrance in the Alpha Quadrant.
Bajor is important in the event of an attack as a civilian evac centre, time permitting.
The Federation need Bajoran co-operation and the Bajorans need a ally who will stand by them in a crisis and the Federation has done that more than once, Sisko even recommended Bajor sign a non-aggression pact with the dominion to keep them out of the fighting as the Bajorans were in no fit state to resist a dominion assault.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
This... the second in command is a Bajoran and the commander is an emissary of the Prophets. The Bajorans aren't going to object
Look, you may trust in the good intentions of the Federation, and of Starfleet. I may trust in those good intentions. But what reason did the Bajorans have to trust in those good intentions? Because the station commander is their Emissary? You might recall that it took a while before that was generally accepted on Bajor, even without turning the station into a Starfleet military encampment.
And that's not even getting into the likely response of the Cardassians...
that was one odd episode. They were making a point, but I'm not sure it really got across.
that liaison was a pain in the TRIBBLE for the Federation. She stood up for Bajoran interests and proved it over and over. Even with a field promotion to Commander and a commission in Starfleet, she wore a Bajoran uniform whenever she could.
The cardassians are just bullies without much of a punch
How long did the war between the Federation and the Cardassian Union last again? Gul Dukat's various harassments weren't terribly forceful because he didn't have the official backing of his government. Place a heavily-armed Starfleet presence right by the border, though, and that might change.
Yes, so she represented Bajor's interests pretty well.
And the wars were short, border wars that the Federation didn't put much effort into ending. I dunno how much stronger Galaxies are to Ambassadors, but I'm sure Ambassadors could had taken on at least 2 Galors... the Federation had the ability to put down the border wars as hard as they wanted to without really... putting themselves on a war footing.
Of course the Defiant could do serious damage to a Galor - the Defiant, as you might recall, was designed to fight the freaking Borg. But the only place an Ambassador can take on multiple Galors is in STO, where you have special Player Character Powers.
The Defiant was also a serious threat to Jem'Hadar ships - which destroyed the Galaxy-class USS Odyssey.
Wow, I didn't know that. I was off by a little bit; 1.5km across gives a ring circumference of 4.712km, 2.928 miles. Just call it 3mi. I guess at a mild jog...1 hour.
Seems bigger, you know? Comparing the ships with 3000+ crew right next to it...must be cramped in the ships.
The term you're trying to look for is "glass cannon."
The Defiant is not an MTB, it's a destroyer. Smaller, fast as hell, and can fire a lot of devastating weapons, but it's not supposed to stick around and slug it out with heavy ships (cruisers and battleships).
A runabout is more like an MTB. A small raider that might get lucky once in a while, but is mostly a sitting duck in a ship versus ship engagement.
Cryptic scaled up the exterior to 5 km-ish because otherwise they thought it looked like a toy next to the usual crowds of player ships. The interior's also bigger than it is in the show (which I think was to deal with camera issues early on).
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The only point by the time "Profit and Lace" aired was to draw a paycheck. Alexander Siddig, who directed, thought he was making a satire (of what, I have no idea), the original scriptwriter had it planned as a comedy, and the actors actually refused to film several scenes because they had managed to be offensive to women, LGBTs, cross-dressers, the viewers' intelligence, and Quark (starting with trying to undo most of his character development across the last six years and ignoring that Sisko had personally banned him from extorting sex from his employees way back in season 1).
End result, a complete clusterf*ck that borders on "Code of Honor" in terms of being stupidly offensive in general.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Considering all the space the UFP has and their history with their neighbors, even the massive Starfleet would be hard pressed to watch over all that. You could say as an Armchair Admiral / "Monday Morning Quarterback" that Starfleet should have posted stronger military forces at DS9. Starfleet is only so big, not to mention the ships would have to come from somewhere else. One simply does not stamp their feet and fleets will magically come out of nowhere.
1on1 the defiant would get owned by a Galor
A Ambassador would probably be a even match
And a Galaxy would own the Galor
According to the Tech manuals and board games
STO is as far from Canon as you can get
I mean seriously
the Jem hardar destroyers beat on the oddessy for almost 10 minutes and couldn't take it down despite having tricks that made the Odyssey's shields useless from there first shot,,,, And there firepower was still so weak they had to RAM the odyssey to take her down
Later we see the defiant with no shields take a full volley from a jhas and take it then destroy the jhas with one volley with the jem hadars shields up and see a Klingon BOP do the same thing to another JHAS
pretty poor writing isn't it
the odyssey has 4x the firepower of the defiant yet cant take out a single JHAS with all power to weapons
Really poor writing lol
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Odyssey couldn't take down the shields of the Jem'Hadar but the Defiant could isn't bad writing. It's the Defiant having an overcorked engine that supercharges the weapons to a point they provide more burst damage than a Galaxy class would, as well as punting out alot more rapid shots than a standard beam. As stated in the Defiant's first appearance. However, the Galaxy can take a much harsher beating.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Technically that could be every main ship on every series.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Voyager takes it to a whole new level obviously. In fact, i think Voyager wins out over the Defiant since the Defiant actually runs out of plot armor at one point and gets irreversibly destroyed. That only happens to Voyager when a reset button is present XD.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
You mean analysing post battle reports and upgrading their ship to better defend against these things? remember in the earliest eps, even the Jem'Hadar fighters were able to board the ship. To assume they wouldn't analyse and enhance the ship following battles is just daft.
Ok, why didn't the Dominion do likewise? Because plot. I'll say this for DS9, in the big ship battles, it did seem like the combatants forgot to raise any shields. At all.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'