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Something about ds9 bothers me
deaftravis05
Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
Deep Space Nine... a major outpost by a wormhole.
Prior to the Dominion being discovered, there were no ships stationed there, even after a Cardassian attack and attempts by the Cardassians to retake the sector...
Honestly, I'd had stationed a squadron of ships at Deep Space Nine. 15 ships at the very least.
This sort of presence would had prevented the Klingons from attacking DS9, or the Romulans too as well. Just one battleship and a handful of Bajoran impulse ships? meh...
I know, I know... plot... bit still, when I play Star Trek Armada and I see a wormhole, I station a fleet and a whole bunch of defences there, even if I control the other side. Why? The other side isn't firmly under my control and it's a chokepoint.
It's fine if the station commander and representative to Bajor is a commander. That's fine... the Bajorans wanted him there as commander. I'd had assigned him a small fleet of light cruisers, things to hold the line, patrol and keep intel up to date until my battle fleet from Mina Kovos arrives to relieve the station. We know that not every captain of a ship are actually captains in rank.
Still, my point. Major chokepoint, we don't control the other side or know the political situation on the other side and it's a border outpost against an entity that has threatened and even warred with us in the past. A simple outdated mining base as the sole defensive line? Poor military thinking right there...
Prior to the Dominion being discovered, there were no ships stationed there, even after a Cardassian attack and attempts by the Cardassians to retake the sector...
Honestly, I'd had stationed a squadron of ships at Deep Space Nine. 15 ships at the very least.
This sort of presence would had prevented the Klingons from attacking DS9, or the Romulans too as well. Just one battleship and a handful of Bajoran impulse ships? meh...
I know, I know... plot... bit still, when I play Star Trek Armada and I see a wormhole, I station a fleet and a whole bunch of defences there, even if I control the other side. Why? The other side isn't firmly under my control and it's a chokepoint.
It's fine if the station commander and representative to Bajor is a commander. That's fine... the Bajorans wanted him there as commander. I'd had assigned him a small fleet of light cruisers, things to hold the line, patrol and keep intel up to date until my battle fleet from Mina Kovos arrives to relieve the station. We know that not every captain of a ship are actually captains in rank.
Still, my point. Major chokepoint, we don't control the other side or know the political situation on the other side and it's a border outpost against an entity that has threatened and even warred with us in the past. A simple outdated mining base as the sole defensive line? Poor military thinking right there...
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Post a Bajoran squadron there, and some people on Bajor will yell about it being a waste of scarce resources, that could be better used in the reconstruction of their society. Post a Starfleet squadron there, and other Bajoran factions will scream blue murder about Federation imperialism. Both Bajor and the Federation will have diplomatic and pacifist types complaining that a military presence gives entirely the wrong impression, that we are peace-loving folks really and want to be friends with everyone. (And, really, why not? Sure, we know now that there is a massive and unreasonably xenophobic empire on the other side of that wormhole, but neither the Federation nor the Bajorans knew that when they set DS9 up as a port there.)
Hindsight is twenty-twenty, and the Federation isn't run by exclusively military thinking.
"The Federation has stationed a Nebula class starship along with two Airika class cruisers in an effort to maintain security at Deep Space Nine." that can play well. They'd be on patrol in the Gamma Quadrant near the wormhole but still assigned to DS9.
I would also point out that the Federation was, at the time, trying really hard not to provoke the other major power in the area, the Cardassians, no matter that because they were bloody stupid when writing the treaty the peace wasn't sustainable.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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I don't know why the Federation would had signed that. They had Klingons as their allies. They could had easily forced the Cardassians to the table and had terms very favourable to the Federation. A Galaxy class ship, ambushed, was able to easily cripple a Cardassian Galor ship. A Galor class warship is a ship of the line for the Cardassians. Four Galor class warships ran from a Galaxy class in the opening of Deep Space Nine. I know they said otherwise, but the flagship was coming in to duel with what, 3 intact and 1 disabled Galor class? The Cardassians knew they couldn't press home their point.
So why did the Federation sign such a treaty that would had caused problems? They could had gone hard on the offence with just 1 fleet and had the Cardassians on their knees, withdrawing from disputed worlds that the Cardassians tried to annex.
The Federation could had just stationed a security force with the job of keeping the peace in the area.
To bubbaloo, it wouldn't have to be large, just a few ships. Not large like a hundred warships, but just a couple of ships. I wouldn't consider that a threat, but rather a defensive force designed to hold out should I attack, but not large enough to be a threat to me.
Just watch the opening credits. :P
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Because the Federation that signed the treaty was still the pre-Wolf 359 "peace at any cost" Federation instead of the post-Wolf 359 Federation that actually had half a brain about how to make a lasting peace. Classic political f*ckup: do something big and grand but don't go to the effort necessary to make sure it actually sticks, just like with the Iraq War.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Hmmm, that's true.
it seems to suggest the Cardassians were annexing Federation colonies and relations weren't good in the decades beforehand... I dunno, I'd had been pushing to push the Cardassians out and invade the Bajoran system then force them to the table. Bajor isn't that far from Cardassia Prime.
its interesting you bring up iraq, because the very thing that caused saudi arabia to give the usa permission to base out of their country was the usas (false) claim that iraq had amassed troops near the border.
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To be fair, the Cardassian border wars dragged on for at least a decade before the ceasefire came into effect and the treaty signed in 2370, the Federation were war weary and wanted peace at any cost, if that includes ceding some systems over to the Cardassians so be it.
The only people who objected were the Federation colonists who in the grand scheme of intergalactic politics were in no position to demand a treaty rewrite.
The treaty did keep the peace until the Cardassians joined the Dominion.
Concerning the Bajorans, yes DS9 is technically a Bajoran station under Federation administration and with the conflicts with the Klingon Empire and the Dominion, Bajor has stayed neutral and still allowed a Federation fleet to be stationed at DS9, they won't complain because it's in their best interest to keep the Federation as allies.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
It shouldn;t had been tolerated... the border wars.
I'd had sent in a fleet and say "Hey, you wanna start something? See these 100 ships here? Go on... every world you attack, we will take one from you."
It's Federation. You're saying we want peace... but we won't be pushed around and if you hit us, you will find yourself lying down with our boot on your face."
The reason why I say this about the Cardassians is that at the time they were bullies and well known for it. They had annoyed the Federation and the Klingons for some time. They were known for annexing worlds and plundering those worlds. The Federation would know enough from their own member worlds' history that you gotta give the bully a good beating to let them know it's not acceptable to go pick a fight, especially with a guy 5 times bigger than you are.
It was a brutal conflict on both sides and left a lot psychological scars with the veterans, both sides did things they were not proud of but that is the nature of war.
"War is state politics by other means", a quote the Cardassians would understand very well, like I said in my previous post, the Federation were getting war weary of of the whole thing and they wanted peace at any cost.
The closest thing that comes to mind is the the policy of of appeasement with Germany in the 1930s, Britain and France did not want another war with Germany and let Hitler grab and annex country after country, Austria and what is now the Czech republic come to mind as well as the re-militarization of the Rhineland.
The Federation/Cardassian peace treaty was the Federation trying to appease the Cardassians
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Again, this is the pre-Wolf 359 Federation that still thinks the galaxy is its oyster. The one that is still riding high from having made peace with their greatest foe for the previous century-and-a-half, the Klingon Empire, and which hasn't fought a full-scale war in at least a century. The one that has Picard fly into enemy territory with his shields down as a show of good faith and then act all surprised when the other side instead takes it as an opportunity to kick him in the teeth. The one Q was trying to make wake the f*ck up in "Q Who?". The Federation that blatantly ignored fifty years of genocide on their own border because it "didn't concern them". I can perfectly see that Federation picking an unjust, unsustainable peace or a string of skirmishes over committing to a necessary war.
Wolf 359 was more than just a wake-up call to Starfleet's tacticians and appropriations guys, it was a wake-up to the whole country. Unfortunately it apparently took a while for the whack on the head to percolate through the bureaucracy.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Hit the nail right on the head there
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
The thing I've always wondered about that treaty - given the apparent individual advantages in Starfleet ships by the time the treaty was written and the war being 'lowkey' from the overall Federation perspective (we didn't hear about it for several years. I know, I know, didn't exist out of universe)
Though some colonies got lost when the border was redrawn, and the Federation got some - what was the relative weight? It feels it must have been in the Federation's favor overall. No one seems to grumble about the overall terms of the treaty on the Fed side
Though a treaty to buy time to rearm to deal with a situation is time-honored. in the halls of diplomacy. Sometimes even if you have a materiel advantage, you need time to get it into position, and with as aggressive a regime as the Cardassians, there was probably a cynical ambassador figuring the Fed Council would keep its hands clean. No one expected the Dominion to change the balance of power so thouroughly, of course.
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Between Wolf 359 and the Cardassian troubles, the Federation Council certainly should have been wide awake by the time of the events in STO. But admirals normally answer to politicians in a representative democracy. And politicians will usually kick the can down the road. Even when they can clearly see that delay only exacerbates the problem.
We actually do have a large force in Alaska, one of the larger US Air Force bases which is supplied with nuclear-armed bombers and it runs drills every year. We also have several US Pacific fleets.
In Bajor's case, a diplomat might be able to convince the provisional government that a federation presence of ships would help deter further cardassian acts of aggression, since one happens literally seconds after the Eneterprise leaves in the premier.
Just as the Soviet Union saw the outdated Jupiter missiles in Turkey in the late '50s as a sign that the US was poised to attack, and started building their own missile base in Cuba in response - something that very nearly started WWIII, and would have if John Kennedy had listened to his brother Robert. (Not to take anything away from Sirhan's villainy, but that murder might have saved the world at the same time - Robert Kennedy apparently never saw a danger to US interests that he didn't want to nuke.)
Just as there are those today who see the Russian overflights of Norwegian airspace in those antiquated Bear bombers as a direct threat to NATO, despite the fact that we know the Russian air force is more of an air farce, and their vaunted Rocket Forces are in fact a rustheap. It's just Russian paranoia and machismo at work, as relatively harmless as those few ships you'd station at Terok Nor-- pardon me, DS9, and just as provocative to those who want war.
DS9 is only 1.5 kilometers across according to official schematics, and the outermost sections aren't playable in-game. The DS9 map in-game is just the Promenade and Ops, which are in the central hub.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Kurland here
This is Kurland
Kurland come in :mad:
Yeah, why has Kurland not been sacked yet for incompetence?
come on he's lost control of the station on more than one occasion, Sisko lost control of the station in 2370 and 2373 and on both instances he retook the station.
In 2370, Sisko used guerilla tactics to regain control and in 2374, he forced a Dominion retreat from the staion
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Sure, the Bajoran Wormhole was unique - but in the end, it was no different from any other remote location. Aliens could visit the "borders" of the Federation at any time. And in this case, the station was directly in the way of this unique "access point".
But the Federation didn't leave DS9 unprotected. It had gone a seriously long way from its initial 5 photon torpedoes in the pilot. Enough to threaten a Klingon Invasion force.
Would 15 ships really have made a difference? Or just made the KDF add 15 ships on their own to their fleet before they'd "dare" to approach DS9?
Regarding the Cardassian-Federation situation:
The Cardassian-Federation war wasn't fought with Nebulas or Galaxy Classes. it was probably fought with Constellations and Mirandas. The Federation could probably have beaten the Cardassians in the end, but it would have come at some ugly cost - the colonies weren't that well protected - Even an old Constitution class ship would have the ability to devestate them. Ending the war early in a peace treaty meant a lot less lifes lost.
And during the Dominion war, The Klingons also stationed themselves there (and later the Romulans). It was only during the intial years the station was left without a permenant support group.
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yes, a squadron of 15 starships were assigned to Deep Space Nine Defences after the Dominion made its appearance, stationed at a nearby Federation outpost outside Bajoran space. They responded pretty quickly and they were a battlegroup. Combined with DS9's defences, they were enough to force Gorwon to reconsider and retreat.
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Exactly! The Defiant was an escort warship. It was more powerful than a Galor class warship though. It could go toe to toe with an Excel, the mainstay battleship of the Federation... which is only outstrengthed by galaxies, sovereigns and ambassadors.
and yeah... I'd had done way more upgrades to Deep Space Nine... more...
sure, the ability to lock 500 torpedoes on a single target is nice. But more shields, more troops (even if they were under Bajoran command), and fighters... not runabouts, but fighters. I'd had added a bay, a pod to the station for the fighters and Defiant to be docked there. You know? pods at the three pylons... with extended docking capabilities for warships and fighters, defensive units to be stationed.