Wouldnt it be pretty slow to move vertically? Lack of impulse engines pointing up/down an all.
thrusters...something that has been on our primitive spacecraft for decades...and considering the powerplants on starships they could move at a pretty good clip in any direction. max on thrusters would be slower and acceleration would be slower but still not a snails pace...but who am i kidding.
you can't even reverse at a decent speed without draining power for some ridiculous reason. if you want more realistic space physics this just is not the game for that and never will be.
Dr. Patricia Tanis ~ "Bacon is for sycophants and products of incest."
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
the use of the third dimension in this game is pointless.
I would prefer the Starfleet Command combat system.
would bring alot more tactic into the game.
This X100
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
You are kidding, right? Such a spew of bile I have never seen. Of course all of Star Trek has three axis movement, Wrath being the most glaring example. The problem is this game does not. The corkscrew effect we have been stuck with is not a three dimensional movement system.
I have been watching Star Trek for over 48 years. The tone of the response and comments made justifies an apology.
Okay. First of all, it's been covered repeatedly. This game is designed for an intended audience of non-gamers who are not expected to be adept at thinking three dimensionally. I am sure that you have no difficulty with it. I am sure that most of the forums have no difficulty with it. I have heard game designers from many companies (not just Cryptic) claim their business research indicates that difficulty with maneuvering and tactics in three dimensions is common among target consumers and the more casual the game, the more this is an issue.
Three dimensional play adds a level and type of difficulty which this game is not intended to have. If you can think three dimensionally with precision and skill, congratulations, you have a skill which exceeds that of players Cryptic wants to have an odds of keeping pace with you.
Second, when it comes to simulating Trek: This is not a world simulator. It is not supposed to be a simulator. No amount of money and manpower would make it a simulation of the world featured in Star Trek. That is not only something that the game doesn't do or "doesn't do well", it's something that the game is not supposed to do and which designers will probably actively keep it from doing in certain ways.
What the game simulates is watching an episode* of Star Trek, not living in the world of Star Trek. This is the design goal.
* - With provisos.
Would you be upset at the lack of setting accuracy in the Star Trek: The Next Generation pinball machine?
On a scale of Star Trek: Pinball Machine to Star Trek World Simulator, I believe that STO, by design, probably falls closer on the spectrum to the pinball machine. Not all the way in the pinball machine direction but probably slightly less of a simulation than Star Trek: The Customizable Card Game by Decipher, far less of a simulation than a table top game, and a bit more of a simulation than pinball or HeroClix. I think given unlimited resources, they might shoot for about the level of the Card Game, which would be a daunting task.
Now, when I call it an episode simulator, I think on the whole that what Cryptic shoots for is NOT what was POSSIBLE in an episode or with the technology (although they do stretch that far with cosmetics). In terms of mechanics, the goal is what you would typically see, treating what was rarely seen as outside the scope of the game. You rarely saw ships engage in significant 3D action. Because you rarely saw it and this game does not strive for the full scope of what was possible -- and because the mechanic would favor people with superior skill in 3D thinking when there is an interest in mechanically tying players closer together in a kind of three legged race that promotes cooperative play, it won't happen.
It's been discussed. Threats have been made. Shouting has happened. Threads have been created. Cryptic like any business avoids definitive nos. On this subject, they made an exception and said no. That is a no rooted in its relative rarity in Trek and a no that they would willfully deviate from the canon on this point in any case.
At one point, they were open to the idea of an out-of-combat ability similar to full impulse that would allow vertical strafing as was seen in Wrath of Khan. The developers soured on even that because of the rancor and entitlement of people who wanted to flex their superior skill over less 3D capable players in combat and kept pushing the issue until the threads chased off developers.
There are issues I will rake Cryptic over the coals for. This is NOT one of them. I thought perhaps things might have finally cooled down to a point where non-combat V-strafing could be reassessed but I'm disappointed to find a lack of empathy and brusque demands in this thread. It is disheartening.
Bridge commander had this down years before STO ever came to be... how the **** did they manage to ignore BC ... oh wait i remember:
"We can make this game cheap in a year on an engine that no business being used for that. Fck quality!"
And Starfleet Academy, And Klingon Academy, And Star Trek Generations, And a Final Unity, And Star Trek 25h Anniversary, And Star Trek Judgement Rites, And Starfleet Academy for the Super Nintento, etc etc etc.
The vast overwhelming majority of Star Trek games with space combat have full on 3D combat. :P
The limited Z-axis movement would not be an issue if they didn't actually have mission objectives at different altitudes. This is most glaring in the Sphere, which is really when the second wave of Z-axis complaints started.
You know, klingon academy is still my favorite PC Star Trek game, that game just oozed with style and EFFORT!
And the combat was glorious! I remember frantically switching power setups, exploiting 200% photon salvos (and then going into recoup setting to repair the wrecked torpedo bays), hunting cloakers and just generally having a great time in multiplayer.
Heck i even won a small mp tournament back then, when gamespy was still something. Finale was up to me in an excelsior. I got there after having a drawn out duel with an ace VoDIeh captain, that TRIBBLE stuck to my tail like a pro, but made a mistake and overshot me once which gave me a direct shot on his warp drive, shattering a nacelle and by that permanently lowering his maximum power. He lost maneuverability and i continued to pelt him with 150% photons and won the match.
He gave my ship a good pounding with those shield bypassing asspull cannons XD. But he never got in solid enough hits for shattering hits and i was able to recoup by waggling, so that he could not hit the nacelles with impunity.
The final match was against a guy who got through the tournament by doing one thing: sitting in his old TRIBBLE roumlan bird of prey and delivering 200% heavy plasma at point blank, always aiming for either sensors or warp drive. He knocked out romulan BCH's (those could be nasty fckers with their crew murder guns...), bops, vodIeh's and excels right out of the tourney with that.
Of course, hitting the warpdrive of the excel at full impulse with the heavy plasma is far from an easy thing so i gathered he would go for sensors, which he did.
I kept my eye on the sensor blips (increasing power to sensors increased the number of "pings" you got, brief moments of a outline box popping up.) and when he got close to the forward saucer i knocked shields to 200%. I tanked several such attempts (after firing such a plasma, the bop always needs to go and repair the plasma launcher because overcharging your weapons did damage them) and had the edge because the excel had the excess power and shield reg to refill the shields in time for the next attack. Then, when he did it again i changed power setting from 200% shield to 150% and photons to 200%. I gave up movement and phasers for it, but i managed to send 4 photons right down his already damaged plasma launcher, he lost the system for good.
He began being an ******* after that and refused to come out of cloak, which meant 10 more minutes of me shooting sensor blips. But i caught him again under cloak with standard photons. His warp drives got wrecked, he lost power, decloaked and i finished him.
And wow, lets not get into the good times one could have with starfleet command 2....
Ah.. i went off topic... the topic was cryptic will never make a "good" star trek game.
http://www.stbc2.net/ <-- i wonder if that will ever get off the ground. Or som sort of remaster of Bridge commander....
Come on! homeworld got a remaster... remaster the good trek games!
Oh and the combat in star trek generations was not sooooo bad either.
We don't have true 3-d for several reasons. First, the engine wasn't built for it. Second, most players couldn't handle it. Last, Star Trek doesn't actually take place in space. Seriously. The ships and whatnot in the shows don't even move realistically, and they are almost universally existing on or near the same plane. They're never upside down relative to each other, or anything like that.
As seen in STWOK, a simple z-axis movement ability would look a hell of a lot cooler...
You could do exactly this in Starfleet Academy.
"After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true. Except for a T5 Connie. That would be f*%#ing awesome." - Mr. Spock
In khitomer vortex you flank the gate to kill it faster. Once the gate explodes you have to cross the gate to get to the other one. The game prevents you from flying through the gate. Having a vertical move would be real nice at that point. But considering how old the game engine is CE may become unplayable
Here's a simple solution for the spiraling problem that wouldn't require rewriting the engine or anything: simply increase the vertical angle limits to 90 degrees (or 89.9 if there are issues with full 90). Then, if your objective is directly above or below you, you can just steer up/down all the way and get at it without having to spiral around like a maple seed. Basically, your ship's heading would then have the same degree of freedom that the camera controls already have.
I'm ok with not having "realism", after all, this is an MMO based on science fiction. But being able to see something, yet unable to point my ship at it, really breaks the immersion and is pretty much the only thing that keeps reminding me that I am an average dude sitting at my computer, and not a starship captain traversing the galaxy at warp speed.
I'm tossing around the idea in my head of creating a satirical Foundry mission, with objectives deliberately placed in positions not directly vertical to each other, but at a steep enough slope that you still can't quite fly in a straight line from one to the next, and writing a commentary about this issue into the dialogue via some technobabble explanation of why the ship can't go that way.
More direct vertical movement would simply just make regular travel easier. In combat though, it has zero effect. Unless we start having Dorsal and Ventral shield facings like Star Trek Bridge Commander did, it will not matter in combat.
Here's a simple solution for the spiraling problem that wouldn't require rewriting the engine or anything: simply increase the vertical angle limits to 90 degrees (or 89.9 if there are issues with full 90). Then, if your objective is directly above or below you, you can just steer up/down all the way and get at it without having to spiral around like a maple seed. Basically, your ship's heading would then have the same degree of freedom that the camera controls already have.
I'm ok with not having "realism", after all, this is an MMO based on science fiction. But being able to see something, yet unable to point my ship at it, really breaks the immersion and is pretty much the only thing that keeps reminding me that I am an average dude sitting at my computer, and not a starship captain traversing the galaxy at warp speed.
I'm tossing around the idea in my head of creating a satirical Foundry mission, with objectives deliberately placed in positions not directly vertical to each other, but at a steep enough slope that you still can't quite fly in a straight line from one to the next, and writing a commentary about this issue into the dialogue via some technobabble explanation of why the ship can't go that way.
While I find most things that include "Breaks my immersion" to be full of much fluff, there are exceptions to everything, and this is one of them. I second this.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
Comments
thrusters...something that has been on our primitive spacecraft for decades...and considering the powerplants on starships they could move at a pretty good clip in any direction. max on thrusters would be slower and acceleration would be slower but still not a snails pace...but who am i kidding.
you can't even reverse at a decent speed without draining power for some ridiculous reason. if you want more realistic space physics this just is not the game for that and never will be.
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
This X100
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Okay. First of all, it's been covered repeatedly. This game is designed for an intended audience of non-gamers who are not expected to be adept at thinking three dimensionally. I am sure that you have no difficulty with it. I am sure that most of the forums have no difficulty with it. I have heard game designers from many companies (not just Cryptic) claim their business research indicates that difficulty with maneuvering and tactics in three dimensions is common among target consumers and the more casual the game, the more this is an issue.
Three dimensional play adds a level and type of difficulty which this game is not intended to have. If you can think three dimensionally with precision and skill, congratulations, you have a skill which exceeds that of players Cryptic wants to have an odds of keeping pace with you.
Second, when it comes to simulating Trek: This is not a world simulator. It is not supposed to be a simulator. No amount of money and manpower would make it a simulation of the world featured in Star Trek. That is not only something that the game doesn't do or "doesn't do well", it's something that the game is not supposed to do and which designers will probably actively keep it from doing in certain ways.
What the game simulates is watching an episode* of Star Trek, not living in the world of Star Trek. This is the design goal.
* - With provisos.
Would you be upset at the lack of setting accuracy in the Star Trek: The Next Generation pinball machine?
http://youtu.be/EnR3MO6OS8Y
On a scale of Star Trek: Pinball Machine to Star Trek World Simulator, I believe that STO, by design, probably falls closer on the spectrum to the pinball machine. Not all the way in the pinball machine direction but probably slightly less of a simulation than Star Trek: The Customizable Card Game by Decipher, far less of a simulation than a table top game, and a bit more of a simulation than pinball or HeroClix. I think given unlimited resources, they might shoot for about the level of the Card Game, which would be a daunting task.
Now, when I call it an episode simulator, I think on the whole that what Cryptic shoots for is NOT what was POSSIBLE in an episode or with the technology (although they do stretch that far with cosmetics). In terms of mechanics, the goal is what you would typically see, treating what was rarely seen as outside the scope of the game. You rarely saw ships engage in significant 3D action. Because you rarely saw it and this game does not strive for the full scope of what was possible -- and because the mechanic would favor people with superior skill in 3D thinking when there is an interest in mechanically tying players closer together in a kind of three legged race that promotes cooperative play, it won't happen.
It's been discussed. Threats have been made. Shouting has happened. Threads have been created. Cryptic like any business avoids definitive nos. On this subject, they made an exception and said no. That is a no rooted in its relative rarity in Trek and a no that they would willfully deviate from the canon on this point in any case.
At one point, they were open to the idea of an out-of-combat ability similar to full impulse that would allow vertical strafing as was seen in Wrath of Khan. The developers soured on even that because of the rancor and entitlement of people who wanted to flex their superior skill over less 3D capable players in combat and kept pushing the issue until the threads chased off developers.
There are issues I will rake Cryptic over the coals for. This is NOT one of them. I thought perhaps things might have finally cooled down to a point where non-combat V-strafing could be reassessed but I'm disappointed to find a lack of empathy and brusque demands in this thread. It is disheartening.
"We can make this game cheap in a year on an engine that no business being used for that. Fck quality!"
And Starfleet Academy, And Klingon Academy, And Star Trek Generations, And a Final Unity, And Star Trek 25h Anniversary, And Star Trek Judgement Rites, And Starfleet Academy for the Super Nintento, etc etc etc.
The vast overwhelming majority of Star Trek games with space combat have full on 3D combat. :P
This current wave is the third, by my reckoning.
And the combat was glorious! I remember frantically switching power setups, exploiting 200% photon salvos (and then going into recoup setting to repair the wrecked torpedo bays), hunting cloakers and just generally having a great time in multiplayer.
Heck i even won a small mp tournament back then, when gamespy was still something. Finale was up to me in an excelsior. I got there after having a drawn out duel with an ace VoDIeh captain, that TRIBBLE stuck to my tail like a pro, but made a mistake and overshot me once which gave me a direct shot on his warp drive, shattering a nacelle and by that permanently lowering his maximum power. He lost maneuverability and i continued to pelt him with 150% photons and won the match.
He gave my ship a good pounding with those shield bypassing asspull cannons XD. But he never got in solid enough hits for shattering hits and i was able to recoup by waggling, so that he could not hit the nacelles with impunity.
The final match was against a guy who got through the tournament by doing one thing: sitting in his old TRIBBLE roumlan bird of prey and delivering 200% heavy plasma at point blank, always aiming for either sensors or warp drive. He knocked out romulan BCH's (those could be nasty fckers with their crew murder guns...), bops, vodIeh's and excels right out of the tourney with that.
Of course, hitting the warpdrive of the excel at full impulse with the heavy plasma is far from an easy thing so i gathered he would go for sensors, which he did.
I kept my eye on the sensor blips (increasing power to sensors increased the number of "pings" you got, brief moments of a outline box popping up.) and when he got close to the forward saucer i knocked shields to 200%. I tanked several such attempts (after firing such a plasma, the bop always needs to go and repair the plasma launcher because overcharging your weapons did damage them) and had the edge because the excel had the excess power and shield reg to refill the shields in time for the next attack. Then, when he did it again i changed power setting from 200% shield to 150% and photons to 200%. I gave up movement and phasers for it, but i managed to send 4 photons right down his already damaged plasma launcher, he lost the system for good.
He began being an ******* after that and refused to come out of cloak, which meant 10 more minutes of me shooting sensor blips. But i caught him again under cloak with standard photons. His warp drives got wrecked, he lost power, decloaked and i finished him.
And wow, lets not get into the good times one could have with starfleet command 2....
Ah.. i went off topic... the topic was cryptic will never make a "good" star trek game.
http://www.stbc2.net/ <-- i wonder if that will ever get off the ground. Or som sort of remaster of Bridge commander....
Come on! homeworld got a remaster... remaster the good trek games!
Oh and the combat in star trek generations was not sooooo bad either.
You could do exactly this in Starfleet Academy.
I'm ok with not having "realism", after all, this is an MMO based on science fiction. But being able to see something, yet unable to point my ship at it, really breaks the immersion and is pretty much the only thing that keeps reminding me that I am an average dude sitting at my computer, and not a starship captain traversing the galaxy at warp speed.
I'm tossing around the idea in my head of creating a satirical Foundry mission, with objectives deliberately placed in positions not directly vertical to each other, but at a steep enough slope that you still can't quite fly in a straight line from one to the next, and writing a commentary about this issue into the dialogue via some technobabble explanation of why the ship can't go that way.
Enough to say that consigning the IP to forever be "sailboats in space" is ridiculous.
While I find most things that include "Breaks my immersion" to be full of much fluff, there are exceptions to everything, and this is one of them. I second this.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
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